Transcript: A Leader's Guide to Sustaining Success: Clarity, Trust, and Balance // Brian Mosley, RightNow Media

Flourishing Culture Leadership Podcast

“A Leader's Guide to Sustaining Success: Clarity, Trust, and Balance“

September 30, 2024

Brian Mosley

Intro: Are you ready to transform your leadership and see your organization flourish like never before? Well, in today's episode, we're uncovering leadership insights that create a sustainable strategy and operational excellence. And we've got some incredible insights lined up from a top leader who has honed the art of leading with mission and purpose. Trust me, you don't want to miss the conversation with Brian Mosley of RightNow Media. It's packed with the kind of wisdom that could form the way you lead.

Welcome: Welcome to the Flourishing Culture Leadership Podcast, your home for open, honest, and insightful conversations to help develop your leadership, your team, and build a flourishing workplace culture.

Al Lopus: Hi, I'm Al Lopus, the co-founder of the Best Christian Workplaces and author of the Road to Flourishing. My passion is to equip Christian leaders like you to create engaged, flourishing workplaces. And this fall we’re dedicating our Flourishing Culture Leadership Podcast to one of the most powerful drivers of flourishing cultures, and that’s inspirational leadership. So, join us as we dive into insightful conversations with top leaders who will provide you with tools and inspiration to grow and excel in your leadership journey.

I’m delighted to welcome Brian Mosley to the podcast today. Brian is the president and chief executive officer of RightNow Media.

And throughout our conversation, you'll hear Brian talk about clear strategies for goal clarification and accountability, building trust through relationships, and sustaining work-life balance while achieving high levels of success.

I think you're going to love this interview with Brian. But before we dive in, don't miss the opportunity to elevate your workplace culture. This fall take action by participating in the Best Christian Workplaces’ Employee Engagement Survey. And as Brian Mosley emphasizes, trust and relationships are fundamental to a flourishing culture. Are you ready to assess the strength of your team's connections and transform your culture? Well, visit workplaces.org today to start your journey toward becoming a flourishing workplace.

And, again, hello to our new listeners. And thanks for joining us as we honor your investment of time by creating valuable episodes like this.

Now let me tell you just a little bit more about Brian Mosley. Brian serves as the president of RightNow Media. His passion is to help people live out their faith in their neighborhoods, offices, schools, homes, and around the world. The people at RightNow Media serve over 24,000 churches, ministries, and Christian business owners with powerful video content that inspires people into action. Brian graduated from Baylor University, married his high school sweetheart, Julie. His first overseas experience was filming a documentary about a missionary team in Tanzania. Then he returned from his trip and he wanted to make his life count right now. And how many of us want to do that? Well, RightNow started in 2000 as part of a media company called Bluefish TV, a ministry that had been creating video resources for the church since 1977. And at first, Right Now’s main priority was to connect young adults to short- and long-term mission opportunities in countries around the world. And they then started working with churches to help them mobilize Christians to live out their faith, not just overseas, but everywhere, every day. And eventually, they combined the media creativity of Bluefish TV and RightNow’s passion for helping people put their faith in action, and RightNow Media was born.

So, here's my conversation with Brian Mosley.

Brian, it's great to have you on the podcast. I'm looking forward to our conversation today.

Brian Mosley: Yeah, thanks. It’s great to be back, Al.

Al: Brian, the work of RightNow Media, you've got broad reach, and I'm sure many of our listeners are familiar with your work and resources, but give us a high-level introduction of the mission of RightNow Media and how your team serves the global church. And also, if you'd tack on, how did God call you to leadership in this important work that you're engaged in?

Brian: Yeah. I mean, just in summary, our ministry really is about helping discipleship. I mean, we have a huge focus on discipleship and trying to help equip leaders in particular—that leader can be a business leader or a small-group leader or a church leader or a parent in the home—equipping them with resources so they can disciple the people God's put in their way. And so, we love doing that. We have a video library of on-demand resources that these organizations and these people from the organizations can tap into and use in the context that makes the most sense for them.

And so, we love serving, yeah, the global church. I mean, we are thrilled to get to serve churches around the world. Our primary audience is churches, but we do serve Christian-led or Christian-businesses and schools and other ministries, yeah, all around this area of discipleship.

And the quick, quick story, I mean, I don't want to bore you to death here, but I mean, our ministry's been around for over 45 years, started by my dad and my granddad. They were passionate about world missions. My grandpa was a pastor, and so they began filming stories of missionaries around the world back in the 1970s, trying to help put the spotlight on world missions. So that's how the ministry got its start.

I grew up around that, was fascinated by the stories, fascinated by what they were doing, but honestly never thought that's where I would end up. In college, began studying communications, had some great experiences, and the chance to go to Africa for about a month. Had some other great experiences in college, just learning about communications and media and missions. And so, God used all those things for me in college to really point me and orient me toward being a part of this ministry. And even though that was not what I grew up thinking I would do or what I was dreaming of as a small kid or anything, I ended up here, really, I guess, 25 years ago. And again, my career, began my ministry journey then and just had not looked back and loved every minute of it.

Al: Well, I've been to your headquarters there in the Dallas-Fort Worth area, and it is a beautiful place, and it's just exciting to see the way things have grown and the impact that you're having around the world.

One of the things that we’ve noticed as you’ve worked with us at Best Christian Workplaces and the Engagement Survey is the focus on this area of goal clarity. And boy, your team is really engaged and focused, and they understand and seem to have really high levels of clarity around your goals and goal consensus. So, let me ask you, how do you develop your leadership team, and your leadership team goals specifically, and then cascade them throughout the organization? How does goal clarity help in operational excellence, or maybe even where do you face unexpected challenges as you've rolled out these goals over time?

Brian: Yeah. You know, I think it's one of those areas where I appreciate you saying that you think we do a good job of it. We like to think we're doing good at it, but it's also one of those areas that I feel like, boy, if we could get even clearer, that would be even better. So, I never feel like we're there yet.

For us and I would probably think a lot of organizations and, you know, businesses, churches, ministries, I think you have to kind of start with the mission and go, “Okay, are you really clear on your mission?” And we're trying to always ask ourselves, you know, are we clear in our mission? Is what we're trying to do match up to that mission? Are we talking about our mission in appropriate ways and in frequent ways, but also in real ways? You know, not just as a plaque on the wall or a thing that sounds good. And that's really hard to do. I mean, I'm not saying we're experts at that, but it starts there for us because I think the goals, then, have to come out of that mission. The goals are in line with the mission, and everybody’s kind of going their own direction. So for us, we really try to put a lot of emphasis on that mission clarity.

Now, you know, some of the things that we do to help the goals themselves get discussed and then kind of pushed out and into the other teams are probably not that revolutionary from a lot of other organizations. And again, I think we do some of those things well, but I'd love to even get better at them. I mean, our executive team is me plus seven others. Love that team. I get to spend most of my time as the president working with them directly. So we will spend time as an executive team annually, going over goals that usually kind of lines up around our budgeting season, just to say, okay, let each of the team leaders there share some of their major goals and things that maybe would be changing or adjustments they're making for the year ahead. And that way, everybody can be on the same page as we finalize and put together that budget.

Each quarter, that executive team and each of those team members is setting team goals to really focus on, and I get to review those with the leader. And then at the end of the quarter, you know, they can kind of report back and say, “Hey, here's how we did on that.” So that just helps everybody, again, on a quarterly basis, at the team level, stay connected and stay focused.

And those executive-team leaders, as they set their own team's goals, you know, it's kind of up to them to, then, share some or all of those specific goals with the rest of their team. Some of them they may just have more of as an internal goal for themselves that they want to focus on and it's not really publicly displayed for the whole team. And then, other goals may be like, “Hey, as a team, this is what we're aiming for. And I want you to know that this is what I've talked about with the executive-team leaders.” And, you know, they get to share those, I guess is my point.

And goals are ideas with deadlines. And so we're just trying to figure out, okay, are these good ideas? And if they're worth really pursuing, then let's make sure we put a deadline to it. It's a good idea, so let's make sure there's some measurables to it. And then, again, making sure it's always in line with that mission that we're on.

And again, I wish I could say we're perfect. It’s probably one of those areas where I just wish we were even better at it. But I do think we've seen some effectiveness with trying to be really diligent about it.

Al: Well, as I look at your scores relative to our database, you're in a 95th percentile of organizations like yours, around consensus on goals. So people are focused on it and know it, so that's great. And I like your point: goals are ideas with deadlines. And I know our listeners are appreciating that.

So, another strong area that you've got is accountability, and I think goals and accountability go together and this speaks of competence and the quality of your leadership and staff in terms of being clear and then having people being accountable for their work. So how does your leadership team model accountability as you work together, and how do you equip your team leaders and then managers, cascading through the organization, to create this environment of accountability and excellence in day-to-day operations?

Brian: Yeah. I guess I would echo a little bit of what I said before. I think it's an area where we're doing good in, but at the same time, I feel like it’s one of those areas where we could always do better, because I do think there's an opportunity to just really have it. So, I look at accountability, and it’s, in my mind, totally based on trust. If you have trust with the people that you're working with and working around, then the idea of accountability is not scary, it's actually embraced, because you feel like, yeah, I trust these people, and I'm working with these people. Again, back to the mission and goals, we all share the same mission, the same goals, and so I just think it's based on trust. I mean, without the trust, I think the idea of accountability starts to sound very authoritarian and very, you know, just the top down, or it can just be scary. And all of a sudden, it's like, well, accountability sounds like micromanaging, which is a buzzword that, you know, sometimes team members, you know, will say, “Are you just you just micromanaging me?” And I want to say, “Well, if we trust each other and we're all working for the same thing…” I mean, certainly there can be micromanaging, so I'm not saying that there's never micromanaging, but sometimes what people perceive as micromanaging isn't so much, I don't think, micromanaging, it's just, is there really trust established? And so, when people know that your intentions are good, that you are for them, and we are all together for this mission and towards the things that we're working towards, I think the accountability part comes much more naturally.

So practically speaking, again, probably not anything super revolutionary, I mean, we as an executive team, again, me and the seven others on the team, we meet weekly. So I mean, every Friday afternoon we're meeting, late morning, early afternoon. It keeps us connected relationally because that's important. Again, to establish that trust you have to be in a relationship. So there's a healthy rhythm of getting together. And of course, parts of that team are meeting throughout the week together for various things organically or other scheduled meetings. But as a whole executive team, we've definitely adopted a once-a-week rhythm. We actually just got back last week from a once-a-year strategy retreat that we do, and we kind of mix that with some fun stuff to do together, and again, just deepen that relationship, and then, also, some important strategic discussions that are kind of preplanned out, and we come to the table prepared to discuss those.

So, I love the team, the executive team, we've got. Like I said, I spent a lot of time with them. I think there is a strong trust and rapport there. And so that keeps the accountability at that level strong, which I think definitely just ripples in the rest of team. So, we’ll have some non-executive team members that are part of those executive Friday meetings almost every week. I mean, just whether it's kind of a mentoring relationship or for some of reason somebody is in there, and I think they get, hopefully, just kind of exposure to where to how our executive team operates and hopefully, they see the trust and the passion we share together, and that is encouraging to them. And then, really, each of the executive-team members, they have to have their own rhythms, so meeting with their teams and kind of establishing that accountability there. But I do think, as best we can, in that perfect data, we try at the executive-team level to model that trust, relationship, and accountability.

Al: Well, I love what you're saying, Brian, and I think for our listeners, it comes through loud and clear. You said more than once, “I love my team,” so that means that you're in relationship with them, that there is trust, and trust comes from accountability, but it also comes from integrity. It comes from compassion. And those are great things. And, yeah, being relationship oriented, and you don't want to let each other down, which in a sense, when you have great relationships focused on the same mission, vision, you're not going to want to let each other down. You want to do the best you can. So that's fantastic. Yeah.

Well, Brian, certainly during your tenure as president at RightNow Media, you've built a great leadership team. You've referred to them. And I'm sure that there's been changes over time as you've hired people to fill needs and developed upcoming leaders. As you're developing leaders and building your leadership team, what are you looking for in a leader? And I oftentimes think of possibly three areas. Certainly, there's foundational character qualities, and included in that is spiritual integrity, leadership competencies, and then collaborative leadership and team-development approach. So how do you look and develop and hire leaders to fill your leadership roles there?

Brian: Yeah, good question. And yeah, I mean, you’ve kind of picked up on the fact that, yeah, I love the team I'm getting to work with. And so the people, obviously, make up the team, so each individual and as collectively together.

I probably sound like a broken record a little bit, Al, but, you know, circling back to your mission-goals question at the beginning, I think this is probably true in most organizations, but I'll just use us as the example because it's what I know the best. I don't think a person can be in that higher-level leadership role unless they truly, really believe in the mission that we're on, and they're seeking to live it out. Again, doesn't mean they're perfect. I'm not looking for perfection in that regard.

But so for us and our ministry’s mission is to work with the global church to inspire people to love others before self and Christ above all. So it’s this others-focused mindset as well as, then, putting Christ above all of that. Like, how do I honor and live my life in such a way that I'm putting Christ above my own agenda, my own politics, my own desires, you know? So, none of us are perfect in living that out, right? We always find ourselves in moments of going, “That was probably kind of selfish,” or “That was probably kind of shortsighted and more me-centered than it was Christ-centered.” So we always find ourselves in that mode because we're human and we sin. But if you're going to be in that upper-level leadership, you want other people who are looking at that leader to go, “But they just seem to be, you know, they're humble, and they're typically trying to live that out, so I can get behind them.” Right? And so I think when you talk about kind of a character and even that spiritual integrity part, it’s a huge part of that.

One of the things that I learned from my dad and just being around here for now 25 years, just as he was kind of mentoring and passing the time earlier in my career, is he would say the phrase, you know, “There's no 100-watt light bulbs here. We're all 40-watt light bulbs. There's no one big bulb that's the one that's drawing or sending out all the light, so to speak, but when you put a bunch of 40-watt light bulbs together, it can get pretty bright,” you know? And so that always just sticks in my head is the reminder that, you know, for a leader here at our organization, I mean, I wanted to be competent. I wanted to be a good leader, a competent leader. But I'm not asking them to be the rock star. You're part of a team. They're part of the executive team. They're on the team that they're leading. They're part of the bigger RightNow Media team. And so they get thinking to where all of a sudden everything's kind of based on them or about them, that's the wrong way of looking at it. And again, going back to that part of our mission statement is helping people love others before self. So again, they not only believe in the mission, but they realize, “Yeah. God's put me on this team for a reason. I'm a part of the team. I'm an important part of the team as a leader, but yet I'm still part of a team.” So I think that's a big, I don't know, I would say quality of that leader.

And then, and maybe the last thing I would just identify is to say, because people have asked me before across the team—we have about 180 here on our team and then another 60 or 70 globally—they’ll say, “Well, how do I get into a leadership role, or how do I become a leader?” And of course, that's a challenging question because there's lots of paths to leadership. But I oftentimes will tell people, “Well, one thing I would encourage you is leaders are a problem solver, not just a problem identifier. So if you want to have people look at you as a leader, then don't just say, ‘Hey, there's a problem.’ Say, ‘Hey, I noticed this problem, and I wonder if this would be a way to solve that problem or get around that problem.’ And now all of a sudden, people see that you've got a plan to the future and not just pointing out the problem. It's easy to point out the problems.” So, you know, so when you talk about kind of that collaborative leadership, it’s going, “Okay. There's a problem to solve. How do we get together and solve that problem? And I've got some ideas here, not just kind of being a complainer.” So, I don’t know. Those are the things that come to my mind, Al.

Al: Yeah. Great, Brian. Yeah. I love what you're saying. Are they living the mission? being, in your case, it's clear, being others-focused, having Christ first, and then, yeah, that's interesting. I've not heard that, “We don't have any 100-watt light bulbs here, but there's a bunch of 40-watt light bulbs.” I think we can all appreciate that, just being part of the team. And then, as a team you can do so much more together. And then, yeah, being a problem solver, not just a problem identifier. And I love, you know, Ken Blanchard has this old saying of seagull management and leaders who will just come in and make a lot of noise and not really be helpful. They do other things, too, but I'll just say, make a lot of noise.

Brian: Yeah. I think I know where you’re going. Yeah. I know what you mean.

Al: But yeah, to not just identify problems and shove them in others’ faces, but to be there to help solve them. I love that. Thanks, Brian.

So, any leaders who's in it for the long term has experienced high points and valleys, successes and mistakes, and, of course, we like to focus on high points. But we also learn the most from hard places. Would you be willing to share in your own leadership journey maybe a hard season and what you've learned from it and from that experience? And how would you encourage a leader who's listening who might be in a valley right now?

Brian: So, yeah, you're right. I mean, we all encounter some of those lower points of the journey, and I've had some related to just team dynamics and trying to figure out that; I've had some related to transitions within the kind of financial model of the organization, trying to figure out how do you get from this model to that model? But maybe because it's a little bit more current, the one that comes to my mind as you're asking that question is sometimes the value of the challenge comes in a moment or a season where you feel like you’re having or have recently had success. You know, you feel like, okay, things have actually been working well, or the impact that you're trying to make is working, or the financial growth you're trying to make—I mean, whatever success looks like for you. But it's like, you can find yourself going, “Okay. There's been some degree of success. And now kind of the question becomes, like, what's next?” You can kind of wrestle with, like, well, are you supposed to sustain that? Is that what success looks like now is sustain that? If you go backwards at all, are you failing? You know, do you have to do more of whatever success is in order to be more successful the next year? And so, I would just say in our 45-year history—and I've been around here for about 25 of those years—the last 10 to 12 years have really been very, you know—again, you can interpret this word a lot of different ways, Al. I mean it in the healthiest way possible—we've experienced a lot of success. I mean, we've been able to grow our team. We've been able to grow the impact we have. We've been able to reach more people. We've been able to create more resources. Like, just by most metrics that you could probably look at, you'd say, “Wow, there's a lot of good things happening.” And, again, praise God for that. I’ve told folks plenty of times. I mean, I think it's our role as leaders to do things and be obedient with it. But I also don't think that just because you're obedient and try to do things well means you're going to get that success. So I truly feel like there's God's favor there. But in the last maybe year and a half or two years, I felt like, “Okay. But what does happen next year?” You know? And I don't want to be just satisfied of where we’ve been, but I also don’t want to try to manufacture some new success season just to say, “Hey, we're still successful or we're more successful.”

And I don’t know if anybody else out there would relate to this. I mean, I’m hoping that they would, and I’m not alone on this. But just going, “Okay. If something's been working, what's the right approach to continuing that same track? Or what's the right moment of season to go, ‘Hey, that's been working, but it may not always work.’” And so let's make sure that we're not just put our heads in the sand and not thought about what could be next. So we're in that season, and it's created a lot of great conversations and sparked a lot of good discussions among our team. I'm pretty black and white kind of guy. I like things to be pretty buttoned up and clear as they can be. And so when you're in those messier seasons, it's harder. I can sometimes feel just the emotional or mental weight of that, you know, at the end of the day or at the end of a week, going, “Hey, we're still doing some good things. But I don't know yet if I have the absolute clarity on what's next or how to exactly articulate what’s next.” And so you just kind of search for them.

So, that's my thoughts, Al. I mean, again, it's almost a surprising valley because you kind of sometimes think, “I think I'm kind of at the mountaintop,” you know? Then, all of a sudden, you realize, “Oh, okay. The mountain has a peak, you know, and maybe there's not—I don't know, is there another peak, or is there a valley between this peak and that peak?” Not trying to overuse your analogy there, but that’s just my thought.

Al: Yeah, right. Well, thanks, Brian. So fascinating. It's kind of a spiritual discipline, in a way. You don't want to be willful, you don't want to get outside of God's will, but, yeah, so, what is it? And when it’s not clear, for those of us that like to have clear direction, that can be challenging. Yeah. Thanks for sharing. That's great.

So, you know, as Christian leaders, Brian, and I know that you take this to heart, 1 Peter 5:2 is one of my favorite verses, where Peter is saying, “Shepherd the flock that God has entrusted to you.” And so as leaders, we have responsibility for that flock, whether it's our staff or the people served by our organization. And at the same time, we must maintain our own personal spiritual foundation to lead effectively over the long haul. And as we look at self-leadership and our own spiritual health, this is a key issue. So what habits and practices do you use to keep your own spiritual life vibrant, and how do you grow in your own relationship with God, especially with the many demands on your time and energy and travel and so on?

Brian: It's challenging because there is, you know, for any of us that are in leadership, there are a lot of demands on our schedule. The biggest thing that comes to my mind in terms of just maintaining that spiritual fervor and that growth is community. You know, I just, I don't think that we are meant to live in isolation and independence, although those are kind of, for an American audience, very revered, and we like our independence, and we kind of think we can do it our own, and so just, “Don't bother me.” And I think community, I think relationships are a big part of that.

So for me personally, I'm very plugged into my church and been plugged in there for 20 years. Church that actually started in my living room and our pastor's living room. He lived down the street from me and then a blessing to see that over the years as God has, in the verse you referenced, given the church this flock of people to shepherd and just to minister with and minister to. So, through life group and through, I’m an elder there, and so, you know, I'm just meeting and engaged with people from my church on a pretty regular basis. And that is, you talked about accountability, you know, a little bit ago, that's a big part of it, right? It's just, “Okay. I'm in relationship with these people. I trust them. They trust me.” And so we're just helping help each other grow.

And sometimes that looks very intentional, like, yeah, we’re in a Bible study together, doing something that you would kind of label is a very spiritual activity. And other times it's just going to the wedding of a friend's daughter who you've grown up with that family and that daughter's growing up with your kids. It's like, what a great celebration. And you just kind of look at God's faithfulness in their life over the years, and you're just reminded of that. You know, you don't get that if you're kind of not in community or if you're bouncing around from community, because you just don't have that long.

So, point is very plugged in for me personally in my church. You know, I certainly try to stay consistent with reading Scripture and just being in God's Word. I think that's a huge ingredient to just knowing who God is is being in His Word. Probably like a lot of us, you know, there's seasons where that's going awesome, and there are seasons where that's hard, but trying to stay consistent in that and just learn from Him and be with Him in that.

I would say for me personally, I’m pretty good—I think part of your question was just, again, related to kind of the demands of time on work and stuff, which there are—I have historically been pretty good about just going, “There's some important work to do. But the work part of my world is not everything in my world.” And so most nights, most weekends, I can move away from work mindset and get into, “Hey, I've got family and friends and other things outside of here,” which is what I believe God wants for us to have is just those restful opportunities, those other relationships to speak in to us, and not just to be so consumed with, in this case, work. So I've been pretty good about that.

And we try here as a team to really emphasize that in terms of even kind of how we set up the work schedule. And very rarely would somebody walk into somebody else's office at 4:30 on a Tuesday and say, “Hey, I’m going to need you to stay until 9:00 tonight to finish this project,” because we know our work is important, and we believe in that mission, but at the same time—I do think sometimes, by the way, ministries, nonprofits, they can use their mission as a club. It can be all of a sudden, “You got to give me your whole life because our mission is so important,” and I think that's dangerous, so we try to caution against that, caution others against using your mission as a club to beat people into, “You've got to give your whole life’s allegiance to this place.” So if you say that, then you got to live it out, so I try to get out of here and enjoy time away from the office.

Al: Yeah. Well, it's interesting. You know, earlier we were talking about how you have such high and a clear consensus on goals and high levels of accountability, but also scoring, you know, in your top four is that you strive to maintain work-life balance. And there you go. And oftentimes I've heard leaders say, “I don't expect my employees to work long hours,” but they're the ones actually working the long hours. And because the leader’s working the long hours, then other people feel the responsibility to do the same thing.

Brian: Yeah. That can be an unwritten code there that all of a sudden gets transmitted, on purpose or unintentionally, either way, but it gets transmitted.

Al: So, living it out, community, Scripture, and good balance in that regard.

So, Brian, as I talk with leaders who are committed to growing in their leadership and to shepherding their organization well, I'm also interested in how you grow and how you've been growing through this season of leadership. Can you share a few reflections on what's influenced your own growth as a leader, and what are some of the catalysts that you've experienced to spur you on to your own growth as a leader?

Brian: Yeah. I do think it's an ongoing journey and probably one, you know, if we’re honest, we're never really there as far as feeling like we got it all figured out. So I'd like to think of myself generally as a pretty curious person. My kids kind of laugh at me if we're, you know—we were on a vacation earlier this year at a state park in Texas. And I mean, I'm going to be the guy that asks the question of the park ranger, you know—and they get done with their presentation, and they'll say, “Any questions?” And no, my kids will look at me like, “I'm sure Dad has a question.” I just generally think, “Okay. Here’s an expert in something. I’m just curious to know. Here, watching these bats flying out of the cave, why do the bats do this and that?” I mean, just curious, you know? So, I generally think I’m pretty curious, which I think helps me just want to learn.

And, again, I sound like a broken record, Al. I mean, I go back to community and relationships. So I just think of, “Okay. There's people that I'm around every day here that are way better than me or smarter than me in certain topics and subjects, or they have much greater experience than I do and a certain way of doing things, or their past career or whatever it is.” I just want to learn from them, you know? So I'm just not hesitant to ask questions of them so I can learn from them. And I'm just talking about team members, teammates.

And then there's people outside the ministry that I love just trying to learn from, and not that I am trying to emulate them or their style. But I mean, a couple that I've been trying to learn from a lot more recently, Dave Ferguson, he leads Exponential; and Scott Beck, who leads Gloo; and David Kinnaman, who leads Barna. I just am fascinated with those guys and their ministries and the leadership they have. And so just seeking them out and asking questions. And again, it goes back to that relationship. Once you're in a relationship that you feel comfortable enough to ask those questions, they feel comfortable enough to answer. So just trying to ask questions.

And I'm a reader, so I mean, I enjoy reading books, you know? And I just finished the Elon Musk biography, one of the better biographies I've ever read, just very well written. I don’t even know how to articulate it, Al. What a weird and fascinating and inspiring story and individual. I mean, there’s parts of Elon Musk’s life that I would just think, “I don’t want anything to do with that.” But there’s parts of it, as I'm reading it, I'm going, “Wow. He is relentlessly pursuing some big things that he believes are the most important thing.” Whether I believe they’re the most important thing or others believe it, that's neither here or there. But he believes in the most important thing, and he's going to put all his energy, creativity, passion, money, resources towards those things. And so I've been challenged.

I was telling somebody on my team just this week, you know, I feel like occupying Mars. Okay. That's a big goal. That's kind of interesting to think about. Can we ever get to Mars? I'm fascinated with that. But I know that's not the most important thing in life, right? So it's like, okay, here at our ministry, I feel like we're trafficking in the most important stuff you could ever talk about, right? Salvation, discipleship, people’s relationship with God, how they grow in that, how they help tell others about that.

All I have to say is I read the Elon Musk book, and I'm just like, “Okay. Am I relentlessly pursuing that as much as he's pursuing getting to Mars, or not?” you know? And he's not, to my knowledge, you know, trying to tap into the power of the Holy Spirit, right? He's just doing it on his own strength and might. I’m thinking, “Okay. We've got the power of the Holy Spirit, the Bible, the mandate, and callings are there. Like, how do we have the passion to do what God’s called us to do with the same fervor that Elon Musk did?” So anyways, that's fresh in my mind, so that’s why I’m talking about that. But anyways, I read. I’m just interested in what other people are doing and how they’re doing it.

Al: Well, we can talk a long time. I've finished listening to that, to the book you're referring to.

Brian: Oh, yeah? Okay.

Al: Yeah, yeah. And I shake my head, now listening to you with your passion and completely different focus on work-life balance than Elon Musk has as well.

Brian: Yeah.

Al: But at the same time, you're making significant strides in growth as an organization, and your people are flourishing versus the high turnover. But yeah, it's fascinating.

And I'll also say, you mentioned relationships. And I think for other ministry leaders, just to interpret, you’re hanging around with other ministry leaders, truly top ministry leaders in the field. And yeah, Dave Ferguson's been on our podcast, and certainly any church person has heard about the work of Gloo or heard David Kinnaman speak, no question. So, really connecting with ministry leaders and learning from them by being curious and asking those questions. And I've been in the same boat, with kids looking to me when it's time, “Do you have any questions?” And I'm usually the first one to raise my hand. Yeah. So yeah. Let's be curious. Leaders, here you are, so I appreciate those comments. Leaders are readers is another little saying that I've heard over the years.

Brian: Just thinking about the Elon Musk biography that you've now read as well, and you know, there's that same author that wrote the Steve Jobs’ biography 10 years ago or whatever. And I remember reading that a number of years back, and being equally as fascinated with that story, though there was a lot of parts about Steve Jobs’ life that I thought, “I would never want that to be said of me or my life.” But it occurred to me, reading that Steve Jobs’ biography, and it’s occurred to me several times since, including this Elon one, it seems like when somebody is really pursuing greatness or excellence in some field or some area of life—think of an athlete, a LeBron James or some athlete who's reached the top of their— they have to give up something to get there. They're all giving up something. Whether it's family time or other opportunities, they're sacrificing something to get to that greatness.

And I find it challenging as a leader to think, how do you achieve that degree of excellence or greatness that God is calling us to and yet not sacrifice the things that are important to us? And I don't have an answer for that. I just know that it would be tragic for—pick on me—for me to be so enamored with some ministry goal that I sacrificed my family on behalf of that. And some people go the opposite way, right? It's like, well, I don't even want to pursue or think about trying to be great or excellent necessarily because I don't even want to… I don’t know. I just think it's interesting balancing. But Steve Jobs sacrificed a lot to do what he did at Apple and the other endeavors, and so did Elon Musk. And I don't think, in the grand scheme of eternal life, that the sacrifices were worth it. But yet, in a leader, we tend to all kind of have this desire to do something great, and I’m always asking myself, “What am I willing to sacrifice to get there?” because I'm not willing to sacrifice anything, you know. I mean, like, I can sacrifice my own pride or my own whatever, but everything's out on the table here in terms of, would I sacrifice whatever in order to get that goal? It’s like, no, I’m going to be very selective. But it's a challenge, I think, we face as leaders.

So anyway, I don't know if that's helpful, but I just, reading that book and reading the other book and other times, I've just thought to myself, “They're sacrificing something. What am I sacrificing?”

Al: So many similarities. I love the Steve Jobs’ book. I never would recommend it to anybody as the leader of the Best Christian Workplaces. And the same with Elon Musk. I mean. Yeah. Two great achievers.

Brian: Yes.

Al: And yet the way they've gone about it, and so counter to my core beliefs around the way workplaces should be run and desired, and yet they've achieved, from a world standpoint, great things.

From your perspective, RightNow Media’s been serving the global church for more than 20 years, and you've already had a lot of experience leading through change and, particularly in your work, with digital platforms and various types of media. So as you think about what will be required as a Christian leader in the next five to 10 years, give us some thoughts on what changes you see on the horizon and maybe what will stay the same. You know, what are some of the timeless principles of leadership that will still be true going forward, as has been true in past seasons as well?

Brian: So, I would say—probably harder for me to really clearly articulate what is going to change, although I know change is coming, right? I mean, changes are inevitable, but it's hard to know what those changes will be like. And to some degree, anybody listening to this, we all kind of see and sense things that are changing because our world has changed a lot, but thinking about your question makes me think, I mean, some things that I would say, okay, here's what I believe. Certainly, through the lens that I'm in, but, hopefully for your listeners as well, things that are not changing or that are important to keep a hold of. And one is as leaders, I would say, we aren't the hero. Sometimes, you can read books or, you know, hear other leadership stories, and the leader kind of sounds like the hero. I really believe a true and effective and long-lasting leader can't see themself as the hero. It's not about just what we're doing, but it's how are we serving the people that are on our team, that are on the frontlines of that mission, on the frontlines of that endeavor? And I remember Donnie Smith, former leader at Tyson, was talking about he's got a deal called peach-tree leadership. And he used the reference of leadership should be the roots, and the roots to a tree provide the nutrients to the rest of the plant, and in the case of a peach tree, because a peach tree needs to grow peaches. And if the peach tree can't grow peaches, it’s not accomplishing its purpose, but it can’t accomplish the purpose of the roots. So his analogy of the roots is a good one. And I'm just thinking of the analogy of being a hero. So to make ourselves the hero, I think as leaders we have to go, “Okay. I'm in a unique and important role, but my role is to serve those around me in a way that helps us accomplish it.”

I think something else, and again, this may be much more specific to RightNow Media or a technology-related organization, but technology is always going to change. I mean, our ministry over the 45 years has gone from reel-to-reel films to broadcasting documentaries on TV networks to VHS resources to DVD resources to now streaming video resource. The technology changes, so that's inevitable, right? Sometime, somewhere down the road, technology is going to disrupt something that we are doing as an organization. For us we say, “Okay. If that's going to be changing, what doesn't change?” And for us, we keep going back to, for RightNow Media, the mission of the church doesn't change. I mean, the mission of church is about discipling others and helping them know and follow Christ. That's just not going to change. So if we get too hung up as a leader on, “We've got to be the best video-streaming service out there,” well, the second that video streaming is no longer the way it is, then we're kind of sunk. But if we say, “No, we're here to equip the church in their areas of discipleship,” then I care less about the technology; I care about the mission. So I just think it's important to know that the mission never changes.

And again, probably sound like a broken record, with all that, for us, thinking about the mission of that period of discipleship and the church's mission, relationships are the key. I mean, we're a technology ministry in the sense of, I mean, we have to build apps and websites and mechanisms in order for our content to be distributed to people. But again, we try to really hard fight against this isolated mindset that some people have. Our desire is not for the content we create to be put on the phone and people watch it by themselves. I know it happens. I’m not against that happening. But the real effectiveness of that is when you're in a relationship and you're going through that with a spouse or in your family or with a small group or with a mentor or small group at work, when you go through that content and you're growing and learning together, I just think that's where the Holy Spirit does His work. And all of a sudden, it wasn’t just a video, wasn’t just a piece of content; it was a catalyst to grow.

So, I know I've shared some of the same thoughts throughout some of your other questions today, but I just keep going back to relationships are really key. We live in a very technological world. As leaders, yeah, let’s use technology as tools, but I think in any sense of leadership, you can't lead anybody unless you're in a relationship with them. And the relationships matter, and the technology can be a tool, but it can't be the answer.

Al: One of the core values of the Best Christian Workplaces is relationships. And so I bet you it's in there somewhere in your values as well.

Well, Brian, this has just been a great conversation. We've learned so much. You know, going back, just talking about goal clarity and how you really helped to create goal clarity as an organization. And then follow up with accountability, how relationships are a part of that, the things that you do to help develop in your own leadership and the way you develop the leaders around you, what you've learned in hard times and how you develop and grow both spiritually, individually, and then as a leader. And then, as we project what will change and what won't in the future. This has just been a great conversation.

Is there anything that you'd like to add that we've talked about?

Brian: I guess it occurs to me, kind of, again, talking about those books and those kind of business pioneers, I do think back to the work that you and your team have been doing to help these Christian workplaces flourish and thrive. And if I wasn't clear earlier, I want to just say, I don't think it's mandatory for people to sacrifice important things in order to be great. What I wonder is, as leaders, do we even ask ourselves that? What am I sacrificing? Am I sacrificing something important for the sake of something that is not unimportant? You know, my work’s not unimportant. So I wanted to say, I think about the work you guys are doing to help leaders think about the cultures in which they're creating at their workplaces, trying to instill some of that balance and that health. And I commend you for it because I would just think, gosh, if every organization in the country or the world really had tools to be healthy internally, you're just not only creating a healthy culture, you're helping to create healthy people. And they're going to go home to their spouses and their kids more satisfied and content because they didn't feel like work was as much of a drain to them. So I just think the ripple impact there is huge, and all of a sudden, you can still have some people creating and accomplishing and achieving great things, but they didn't have to do it at the expense of being a jerk to their employees or being an absent father, an absent mother, whatever. And so I just, yeah, I just commend you guys for the work you're doing.

Al: Yeah. Thanks, Brian.

Well, thank you for your contribution today. And I really appreciate your excellence in leadership as we've worked together over these years and the way you work to inspire and equip the local church and not only the local church, the global church. So thanks for taking your time out today and speaking into the lives of so many listeners.

Brian: Yeah. Thanks, Al. It's always good to be with you.

Al: Thank you so much for listening to my conversation with Brian Mosley. And I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did.

You can find out ways to connect with him and links to everything we discussed in the show notes and transcript at workplaces.org/podcast.

And if you have any suggestions for me about our podcast or have any questions on flourishing workplace cultures, please email me, al@workplaces.org.

And you won't want to miss next week. Keep listening to our weekly podcast as we continue to learn from leaders who are proven inspirational leaders exhibiting Christian character and excellence in their leadership. Next week we have the privilege of learning from Rich Stearns, president emeritus of World Vision.

Outro: The Flourishing Culture Leadership Podcast is sponsored by Best Christian Workplaces. If you need support building a flourishing workplace culture, please visit workplaces.org for more information.

We'll see you again next week for more valuable content to help you develop strong leaders and build a flourishing workplace culture.