Flourishing Culture Leadership Podcast
“Beyond the Expected: Leadership Lessons on Trust and Change“
November 11, 2024
Vonna Laue
Intro: Are you ready to transform your leadership and see your organization flourish like never before? In today's episode we've uncovered leadership insights that focus on self-awareness as a leader and leading through challenging situations. We've got some incredible insights lined up from a top leader who’s clear on following God on our leadership journey. Trust me, you don't want to miss this conversation with Vonna Laue. It's packed with the kind of wisdom that can transform the way you lead.
Welcome: Welcome to the Flourishing Culture Leadership Podcast, your home for open, honest, and insightful conversations to help develop your leadership, your team, and build a flourishing workplace culture.
Al Lopus: Hi, I'm Al Lopus, the co-founder of the Best Christian Workplaces and author of Road to Flourishing. My passion is to equip Christian leaders like you to create engaged, flourishing workplaces. And this fall we’re dedicating our Flourishing Culture Leadership Podcast to the most-powerful driver of flourishing cultures, and that’s inspirational leadership. Join us as we dive into insightful conversations with top leaders who will provide you with the tools and inspiration to grow and excel in your leadership journey.
I’m delighted to welcome Vonna Laue to the podcast today. Vonna’s the executive director of global services and CFO of TEAM. TEAM stands for The Evangelical Alliance Mission. It's a 130-year-old organization currently sending over 600 global mission workers overseas. And she's the board chair, also, of World Vision U.S.
Throughout our conversation, you'll hear Vonna talk about the essential qualities of inspirational leadership, emphasizing the importance of people and creating organizational excellence. The stewardship of resources, particularly human resources, and the need for leaders to practice self-leadership and maintain spiritual vitality is one of our focus conversation points. She also highlights the significance of honest feedback in leadership and the necessity for humility and dependence on God to finish well in ministry. Vonna also explores the essential qualities of effective leadership, emphasizing the importance of listening, transparency, and community.
I think you're going to love this interview with Vonna. But before we dive in, this podcast is proudly sponsored by the Best Christian Workplaces’ Employee Engagement Survey. Don't wait. This fall is a perfect time to gather insightful comments from your employees to assess the health of your workplace culture. As Vonna encourages us as leaders, we need to ask for feedback so we can become more self-aware and effective leaders. So, are you ready to transform your leadership and, thus, your culture? Visit workplaces.org to learn more and start your journey to becoming a flourishing workplace today.
I want to say hello to our new listeners, and thanks for joining us as we honor your investment of time in creating valuable episodes like this.
Vonna is the executive director of global services and CFO of TEAM. And the mission of TEAM is to partner with the global church to establish and send disciples who make disciples and establish missional churches for the glory of God. Vonna has served ministries and churches in financial and operational capacities for more than 25 years. She has a bachelor of accounting and an MBA in leadership in human resource management. And she's the author of a new book, Glad I Didn't Know: Lessons Learned Through Life's Challenges and Unexpected Blessings. She also has coauthored three ministry financial books. And Vonna is the board chair of World Vision U.S. and also serves on other national and international boards of directors and is a frequent conference speaker.
So, here’s my conversation with Vonna Laue.
Vonna, it’s great to have you on the podcast. I’m looking forward to our conversation today.
Vonna Laue: I am as well. Thank you for having me.
Al: So, Vonna, we've known each other now for a few years. I wouldn't want to say a long time; it might make us sound older than we are, but a few years. And your own background is finance and accounting. You've served with Capin Crouse. You've served with ECFA, now with TEAM. I know you have other responsibilities. And you also have a strategic view of leadership, being on the board of World Vision U.S.
So, at Best Christian Workplaces, one of the factors we focus on for a flourishing organization is inspirational leadership. And one aspect of inspirational leadership is operational excellence. Over the years, you have seen lots of organizations, different leadership teams in action, especially in the nonprofit sector. So what are some of the key factors that you see in leaders who create an environment for operational excellence? What qualities do you notice in leaders who are being good stewards of the resources God has entrusted to them?
Vonna: It’s about the people, right? That's what it comes down to: selecting them, training them, retaining them. And some people are able to do that better than others. But it really, to me, is the biggest key in being able to provide excellent ministry service, whatever that is. And that requires that we have the adequate budget—whether that is for compensating them, whether it's for providing training, benefits—that we don't skimp out on that part. And we know that we need to be cautious people. I've never met an employee that came to a ministry because they had a get-rich-quick scheme, right? They don't come here for our compensation. But at the same time, I think we have a responsibility to be fair and to look at those factors.
And then, creating a culture that enhances the staff that we have, making it a place they want to be. Our individuals feel called to be there, and if God's called them there, then we want them to flourish and be successful. So, you know, when you say, how do we steward well?, you've hit a soapbox for me, and you didn't even know it. And that really has been something that, probably for about 20 years now, I have seen ministries say, “We want to be good stewards.” But when I've dug into that, what they've really meant is “of our finances.” And I think most of our ministries, the people that we have are probably the biggest resource that we have that we need to steward. Would you agree with that?
Al: Amen, sister. Yeah. Absolutely.
Vonna: So, then, if we're not stewarding them well, I think we're doing a disservice, and we're holding the Lord back from what He would do in four areas. So let me explain that. If we have people that are in positions that they are not competent in, I think God gifts us to be competent and successful in our roles. And so when we have people where they don't belong, we're keeping that individual from being where they would flourish, where God would have them. We're holding our ministry back because we don't have the right person in that role. We're keeping the person who is the right person from being there, so they're not able to be successful like they could. And wherever this person is supposed to be, we're keeping them because they're not there. And so by not stewarding our people well, we're not doing a good service to individuals and to ministries.
Al: That’s a strong start, Vonna. Absolutely. People who aren't effective, who aren't helping the ministry be excellent need to find the place where they can be effective. No question about it. Yeah.
Vonna: And it's difficult—I'm not going to downplay that—because these are people that we care about. They’re people that have the same calling, like, they're behind our mission.
One organization years ago that did this, they did a complete reorg. And they took every person, and they looked at their skill sets, and then they looked at the positions that they were going to have under this reorg. And they put everyone in the position where they felt like they could be really successful. And when they were done—I'll never forget this—there was one person that didn't have a role to land in, and so they let that person go. And that person came back several months later, but came back and thanked them. And what she said was, “I love this ministry. I didn't like my job.” And she said, “I got up every morning, and I went to work, but I was not engaged. I was not excited.” And she said, “Now I have a position that I love, and I'm excited to go to work every day.” And she said, “I can support the ministry financially, and I can volunteer in the ministry where my skill sets fit in a volunteer capacity.” She was thrilled.
And so, I've challenged people over the years, “Come back to me if it doesn't work. I'd like to hear.” I haven't had people come back, and I've had to live it myself, right?, and do the same thing in different organizations that I've been in. And it's difficult. But if we are very respectful and we care well when we do dismiss someone, it's not unChristian like.
Al: And that's oftentimes our factor, life-giving work. You know, if people are in jobs where they don't feel like they're really doing what they're gifted to do. I remember a situation, just a similar story. It was a mission-sending organization. And missionaries came in every summer. And this one person, you know, in a focus group was telling me, “Oh, I love it when our missionaries come, and I'm able to be with them and shepherd them around and do whatever needs to be done so that they have a great experience and go back charged up, ready to do the work.” And I said, “Oh, that's great. What do you do the other 50 weeks in the year?” And he said, “Oh, I'm in accounting, and I hate it.” And I'm like, “You're in the wrong job.”
Vonna: Well, I'm glad they were able to, a couple of weeks of the year, give them something to look forward to.
Al: That’s right. Yeah. That’s right. And, again, you're similar to your description of they love the ministry but aren't in the right job. And there's ways we need to be stewards of people. That's just a great story. Thanks.
So, I know we're both on the advisory board of the Christian Leadership Alliance, and you're working on a new track for training for self-leadership that emphasizes spiritual vitality of the leader. And as part of the advisory council, you've contributed insights and resources in this area. So, what is self-leadership, and why is it so important for us to be effective leaders over the long term? And how about if you could share a story or two of examples of how a leader can get maybe off track if they don't practice self-leadership and take responsibility for their own spiritual growth.
Vonna: Well, I'm really excited about this. I think it's such a blessing that CLA is focusing here. Serving in ministry doesn't negate the importance of our development, and sometimes I think that can happen. We really have to take care of ourselves physically, spiritually, intellectually. I mean, is there any other area of life that would work well? You know, if a parent isn't taking care of themselves and developing themselves, they're not going to parent well. And if a doctor isn't taking care of themselves physically, they're not going to be able to care for patients. I mean, it's something that if we step back, it makes sense, but we get in the throes of being busy, and we start to set those things aside.
So, for example, to me, when I'm really busy, the two easiest things for me to knock off my schedule are working out and my devotions. They don't seem productive, necessarily, right? And yet at the same time, I think when I'm really busy, quite honestly, those two are two of the most important things that I need to get through those stressful, difficult times.
I also find, just from a spiritual standpoint, when we're busy, people make excuses for us, and that's not necessarily helpful. So let me explain what I mean by that. As I have been in busy seasons of life, I a few times have felt maybe a little bit guilty or, I think more rightly stated, challenged by the Holy Spirit that I'm not engaged with my local community like I need to be. You know, I'm not plugged in with a life group. I'm not in a Bible study. I'm not maybe engaged in church. And I've had people, well-meaning people, that have said to me, “Well, that's okay. Every day you're engaged in that. You serve in a ministry. That is your service to the Lord.” And there is an aspect of that that's true, but there's an aspect of that, that that's also my job, and the Lord still wants me engaged in some of these other places. And so I don't want to let others make that excuse for me. And I don't want to confuse my ministry calling with the local body and what I need to do there.
And then, finally, I would just say there's a friend in our CLA community that a few years ago wasn't at the Outcomes Conference, and I was confused by that. And when I reached out, I found out that he had a massive heart attack. And the doctor—praise the Lord, he survived that and made some major life changes— but the doctor said, “When's the last time you had a physical?” And he literally couldn't name the last time that had happened. And I don't think that's good stewardship.
We were just talking about stewardship of our people, right? And so when I look at personal leadership and I look at physical, intellectual, spiritual, those are all ways that we can steward what God has given us. And I think we need to take that seriously. So that's why I'm excited about this.
Al: Yeah. And you've just given each of our listeners the question, Have you had an annual physical?
Vonna: Yeah. A couple of weeks ago I took two days, and I took the first day, I went to the dentist and the doctor, and the second day I went to the eye doctor and somewhere else. And I was like, “I'm only home for four days this month. I got to get these knocked out.”
Al: That's right.
Vonna: If I'm going to say it, I got to live it.
Al: That’s right. That’s right. Wow. That’s great.
Well, self-awareness—and this is one of the key issues as well—it's an important attribute for an effective leader, and it's important for us as leaders to understand how other people are experiencing our own leadership. And sometimes we just kind of go on and it works, and that's what we're going to do. So in your experience, Vonna, what are some of the things about getting honest feedback as a leader? What are ways that we can get honest feedback as a leader? Can you share an example of the value of honest feedback from maybe your own leadership journey or from other leaders that you've worked with over the time?
Vonna: Sure. Well, the first thing I would say is if you don't feel like you have that right now, it's not going to happen overnight. You know, start to implement some things, but give it time, because you really do have to build a culture of openness and safety. And that takes time.
Another thing I would say is don't expect others, really, to be vulnerable with you, which is exactly what they're doing when they give feedback. Don't expect that of them if you're not willing to be open and vulnerable with you. You know, why would they trust you?
Now, I realize in leadership we need to be careful because there's a fine line between being transparent and oversharing. But at the same time, if we want people to trust us with their feedback, then we've got to be human. We've got to be approachable.
I would also say that you have to ask for it. A lot of times they're not going to just freely give it to you. And maybe if they do, it's more concerning sometimes, right? But ask for it. Provide opportunities. One of the things that we've done is in the performance discussions that we have, we include in there, “How can I serve you better?” My words, “How can I block for you? What resources can I provide for you that you don't have? What do you need from me?” So just, there are two or three real open-ended questions that pertain to my leadership and how I can support you better. So I think that’s helpful.
As far as examples go, I’ll give you a difficult one—I'll just be vulnerable—and then, I'll give you one that I'm kind of excited about. The difficult one would be that a couple of years ago I did an annual performance review with someone, and I thought it went great. Like, they had had a very good year. I highlighted the things that had been accomplished during that year, and then I moved into their goals for the next year. We were done. But I noticed in the following week that this person had shut down. And I will say that's one of the things that's difficult in a remote environment is it takes time to notice that, right? If you're sitting in the office, you can notice it before the day is over. But if you're not, it takes time. And I realized that they weren't as engaged with me or with fellow employees. And so the next time I was able to sit down with that person, we just had a candid discussion. And what I found out was that what I thought was a great review left them feeling like I didn't appreciate all they had done, and that when we shifted into the goals for next year, they viewed that as ways that I was looking for them to improve. Whereas I looked at it like, “No, we did this and this and this, so we got that done. Let's go do these things.” And had we had better communication, had I slowed down, not just tried to take the next thing off my to-do list and followed up with them, I think we'd have been able to see that sooner. I'd have gotten better feedback from them.
My more-positive example would be—and it probably sounds funny, but I love this—but I had a person that came to me about a year before they left our staff, and they said that they sensed that God was calling them to other work. And we talked through it. I committed to pray with them about that, and we walked that journey together. They were a great employee the whole time. They were able to leave on really good terms and transition when the Lord opened the right door. But that doesn't happen, I don't think, unless you have a really safe environment. And I want our people—it kind of goes back to that stewardship principle—I want our people where God wants them. And if that's here, I want to make them successful here. And if it's that He's allowing us to prepare them for somewhere else, then I want to do that. But having that safe environment where people can dialog and not feel like it's going to be held against them, they're going to lose opportunities, whenever we do that, then I think it just lends itself to getting good feedback and having good relations with our staff.
Al: I just encourage our listeners. I appreciate Vonna’s thought on that first example of the person that was shut down actually from that experience. But even in a remote situation, you noticed; you were paying attention. One of our questions in our Survey is leaders demonstrate compassion for people at all levels. And so when you're caring about people, even when you think things are going great for them, that's a great thing. Great example.
You know, Vonna, sometimes—I'm not thinking of anybody particularly here—but sometimes as we race through the ranks of leadership, we can start believing that we're pretty important. It can seem like our success is because, well, we're doing a good job; we're actually pretty good. And it's tempting to give God some credit in these situations, but actually operate as if we really don't need Him very much. And He's given us these gifts, and we just put them in place, and boom, we're off and running. So how can we as leaders keep a humble spirit and maintain our spiritual foundation of dependence on God? What are some practices that you found to keep you grounded in your faith over the long term?
Vonna: I'm really glad you're raising this topic. I've spent, really, some time in the last few years considering how to finish well. Now, I don't plan on finishing my ministry career anytime real soon, but I also think that time flies, and so we do have to plan ahead. And part of that consideration is looking at some of the ministry leaders candidly that I've highly respected that I don't feel finished well, and that has made me just sad. And they had great ministries that were then seemingly tarnished or negated by just some failure late in their careers. And so as I've looked at that, spent time thinking about it, what I determined is that leaders grow to a point that they don't have people that will speak truth to them. And we have to invite that. It doesn't naturally happen. It is just what you said. I mean, we grow to a point that people won't necessarily be honest with us, and so we have to seek that out. If we can't find it in our organizations, then we need to find it other places.
But I think about when I became a partner at Capin Crouse, it was almost as if that day something changed. I had been a manager, and the staff interacted with me one way. And the day that I had a partner title, people interacted with me differently. And that's just true the longer you go in your career, certainly true within the ministry setting.
So one of the ways that I think is helpful to do that again is just establishing that safe environment, intentionally asking people for input. So I want them to be able to do that, whether it's through the staff-evaluation process, whether it's my colleagues. So on the senior leadership team, we're just really starting to work through an internationalization process. That's going to be a big undertaking. We're a 130-year-old mission organization. And as I've told my colleagues on the senior leadership team, I've told them upfront, I said, “There are going to be times when I say no to something, and you're going to have to challenge me on that, because I may be saying that because I don't have the experience or because it's hard. And so I need you to challenge me. I need you to be honest.” And our senior leadership team, we are really building a spirit of vulnerability. We're honest with each othe. And I think that's important.
And then, the last thing I would say is my family keeps me grounded. They're really good about not letting me get too big a head. They’ll tell me when I'm off base, and sometimes with grace and love, and sometimes I ask them if they could use a little more grace and love. But that's also true. I mean, I joke about that, but at the same time, I value that. That's really important. You know, my husband might say to me, “You might have just chaired this meeting, but I'm your husband.” It’s like, “Oh, yeah. Sorry.”
Actually, we were in a Sunday school class years ago, and that class, someone was a dance instructor. And so they offered ballroom dancing to all the couples, which we thought was really fun. We went, and the second night that we went, Brian said, like, four times, “Would you let me lead?” I was like, “Oh, I'm really sorry.”
So families are good about it. But there's some seriousness to that too. Whether it's family, whether it is maybe colleagues outside of our organizations that are in similar positions that need that same accountability, or its staff and colleagues in the organization, we've got to intentionally invite it in.
Al: Well, I'm listening deeply to what you're saying, Vonna, here, finishing well. That's obviously something that I am working at and fully understand, having worked with so many ministry leaders. And many of them haven't finished well, and I look at those that have, and I think about Jerry White, who's been on our podcast, that we know mutually. And he's still, in his mid 80s, finishing well. But to have truth tellers that can keep us grounded as we go through life, and we can see particularly entertainers who not in the Christian world but just lose their sense of being grounded as to who they really are and how they can just spiral out of control. But that's great advice.
Another quality of an inspirational leader is that they are good listeners. And when we listen deeply to others, we're able to build relational connections and expand our thinking. And as leaders, we often have important things that we want to communicate to our team, but listening may not be our natural posture. I just am reflecting on examples in my own life as I even think of this question. So, as you’ve moved through your own leadership journey, are there some examples that you can share that you've really seen the value of listening? You know, what are some good questions that you might ask leaders as leaders try to understand and discern a deeper level?
Vonna: Well, I tell people, I think that we get the most out of a situation when we're transparent with each other, and so transparently, I'm not great at this. I know it. I'm working on it. It is one of the areas in my leadership that I work at or struggle with maybe more than anything else. And part of that is because I'm a multitasker. I'm always thinking about a lot of different things. And I tell people, “You can see what I'm thinking by what's on my face. If you wonder what that is, you might ask, because I might not be thinking about what you're talking about. And so that facial expression may not be related to that.” Obviously, that can cause some real problem.
So, some of the just basic things that I'm trying to do are turning my computer screen away or closing the laptop when someone comes in, because I will focus on them as much as I can. But if that distraction is there, it's like, oh, another email popped up, or let me make a note. So that has been one way that I've tried to do that. It shows the person that I'm present with them.
And then, you know, just repeating back some of the takeaways is another that I'm listening. It does help me because sometimes even if I'm listening, I misunderstood or misheard something.
From the question standpoint, you know, you asked, what are some good questions that we can ask? I really appreciated last year that I read the book Multipliers by Liz Wiseman, and I would say that was a really impactful book for me. And she has some great tips on listening, and asking questions. She notes in there that we should ask people what's getting in their way of being successful. I think, you know, if someone asks me that, I'm going to feel valued. I'm going to lean in. So that one was great.
And then, another question is a question that would challenge conventional wisdom. As we're going through this international process in our ministry, we're going to have to challenge conventional wisdom. It's 130 years old. We've got a lot of tradition. So incorporating into that people at various roles and at various levels within the organization, because they all have a perspective that's valuable, and if we're not asking for their input, we're missing out on that opportunity. A lot of places, their boots on the ground is going to give us a lot better information than the leadership is going to have. So asking those questions that'll challenge conventional wisdom, just giving them opportunities to contribute, I think, are some of the best ways that we can utilize questions and benefit our staff and the organization.
Al: You know, and our research shows just exactly that point, Vonna, that you have engaged workplaces when leaders ask for suggestions, just asking for suggestions, then acting on those suggestions, and then involving them in decisions that impact. And those three things really help in that process. You're absolutely right. So yeah, asking what gets in the way; and “Okay. So this is the way we're doing things and the way we've always done them, but what might be better?” Challenging that conventional wisdom.
Well, let's get on to a point that I was talking about earlier, and you've got a new book out, Vonna. I can't wait to read it. I just kind of did a little lucky dipping, and you were talking about stories of growing up. And it's like, I need to know more about Vonna as a young girl. But Glad I Didn't Know: Lessons Learned Through Life's Challenges and Unexpected Blessings, what a great title.
So, all of us go through difficult seasons, and sometimes we need encouragement, and we see how God is working also behind the scenes at the same time. Your title is clear. If we knew what was ahead, sometimes we would fear to move forward. And yet God is with us in these hard times. So you start the book with your own story of giving up control and making a decision that didn't make career sense, but you felt was God's will. I think many of us have been there. So tell us about the time when you decided it was time to leave your partner role at Capin Crouse, and I knew you at that point. And then when you didn't have another job lined up, you know, and I'm sure you had your father and mother's voice in the back of your head saying, “Well, don't leave a job until you've got another one lined up.” So how did you discover God's goodness in that season?
Vonna: I'm laughing because when I left, I still had my father, and he was asking that question, so you are completely correct, especially because in our family, God has blessed us in that Brian was a stay-at-home dad the entire time our kids were growing up, so I was the income. And in that year, really sensed that God was saying, “You've done what I've called you to do here.”
And I had three arguments for the Lord. I don't know if you or any of your listeners have ever argued with the Lord. I have to advise: it's not very successful. But my three arguments: one was, I'm a lifer. I'm here forever until I retire. And He said no. And the second was, this is economically ridiculous. And He said so? And I thought, “Oh, yeah. It's that whole He owns the cattle on a thousand hills. I guess He could take care of that if He wanted.” And then, the third one was a practical one, and that was our oldest daughter was headed off to college, but our youngest was headed to high school. And so I said, “Lord, You can disrupt our lives, but let's wait four years.” And He said no.
And so we gave it a little bit of time, prayed about it, but it just was evident that's what we were supposed to do. And so I was supposed to give 12 months’ notice to leave the firm. Managing partner of a national firm doesn't just decide one day that they want to give two weeks’ notice and leave. But I went to the partners the 1st of September, and I said to them, you know, “I've been praying about this, and we feel like it's a matter of obedience. And I think if I don’t do this, it's going to be detrimental for us as a family and for the firm. I just believe it's obedience.”
So, over the next four months, I had 150-plus meetings with clients and network connections and everyone to let them know this is what's happening. And for this left-brained, analytical type A, I mean, I'm a CPA. I have everything in order before I do anything. And to go into each of those meetings, and the obvious follow-up question is, what are you going to do? And to say, “I don't know” was really an opportunity for the Lord to build my trust in Him.
And it was a difficult and challenging time. He made it clear not long after that that we were going to be moving. And at the time, we were in Southern California. I loved our house. I loved our church. I loved our neighbors. I loved the school. And so, again, I argued about that. And the Lord had great intentions. And so His goodness in that was again revealed after the fact, which is why I think these stories are so important.
The stories in the book are half mine, but 16 other people contributed, including Jerry White. So you'll get a Jerry White story in there as well. But, you know, when you're able to look back on it—and so in this situation, I can look back, and I can see that we were called to Virginia. We weren't super excited about going there, but that is exactly where God needed our youngest daughter to be. And she thrived there. She graduated college a year early this spring and is going on to do some amazing things, and a lot of it's attributed to that. Ultimately, I ended up starting a consulting practice, which had been recommended to me a few times. And again, I mentioned I'm a left brain, like, planner. I'm like, “No. I need more stability than that.” But ultimately did that, and that's just been a gift.
And so when we experience those things multiple times, then it gets easier each time, right? Each time we can look back and say, “God's been faithful before; He'll be faithful again.” And so that's my hope as we look at Glad I Didn't Know is just being able to learn from each other and share those stories.
Al: Glad I Didn't Know: Lessons Learned Through Life's Challenges and Unexpected Blessings. And yeah, when God gives you a direction—and I've heard that still, small voice. And it doesn't help to argue, but—
Vonna: It doesn't keep us from trying sometimes.
Al: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. You know, in your book you’ve pulled together different stories and lessons and challenges and unexpected blessings from your life and those of others who follow Jesus. So what are some key lessons? As you kind of went through this process, what are some of the key lessons from these challenging seasons? Are there some foundational truths that will serve us in unexpected seasons that will inevitably come? I mean, we all know, what’s next? We don’t know. But either in our leadership journey or with our family or our community, what can you share with us, Vonna?
Vonna: I kind of talk about seasons of life, and I think you just alluded to that, right? Even when everything's going really well for us, we know that summer, fall, and winter are going to come. It's just as true as the seasons. But the good news about that is that when we're in the middle of winter, we know that eventually spring and summer are going too. This is just how God works.
You can look at Scripture. I looked at Psalms and did a study and literally—okay, I might have done a T chart, like an accountant would—but I put all of the psalms of praise on one side and all of the psalms of lament on another. And if you do that, you'll see that it goes back and forth. So I don't remember the exact chapters, but chapters one and two are joy, and three and four are lament, and five through eight are joy, and nine and ten are lament. And throughout the entire 150 chapters you see that it goes back and forth. And so when we encounter those challenges, sometimes they seem overwhelming and insurmountable. But we know that we're going to get through that. We know that it's in those times that God works. I mean, how many people have you ever had say to you, “Wow, things were going really great, and that's when I learned this lesson”? They don't do that. They were like, “Wow, we went through this really difficult time, and this is what God taught us.” And so I think that's an important thing to understand is that this is how God works.
And some of the foundational truths, if I had to just kind of bullet point those, I would say God is faithful. He calls us to be obedient. So when I talk about unexpected blessings, I realized that I was glad I didn't know about the difficult times, because I'd have tried to avoid it, might have missed out. But then I thought about it, and I was glad that I didn't know about some of the really great blessings in my life as well, because if I had, I would have tried to orchestrate it. I’d have thought, “I need to have this education and this experience and network with this person.” And God was just calling me to be obedient to the next step and then the next one.
A couple of others that we know from Scripture, His ways are higher than my ways. He's got this figured out. And one of the things that came to me through this process is I'm sure glad that the Lord hasn't only given me what I've prayed for, you know, what I would have missed out on. And then the last kind of scriptural reference is that we're called to rejoice. When we look at that in Scripture, it says rejoice always. It doesn't say rejoice when things are good. We're called to rejoice, give thanks, you know, pray without ceasing. But those things go hand in hand.
So those are some of the foundational truths that I think come out. He knows that we're going to stop there and say, “I don't want to.” And so He says, “And again, I say, rejoice.” Like, did you get it the second time?
Al: So, Vonna, in your role at TEAM and also at World Vision, you have an opportunity to see firsthand how God is working through His people around the world, and you have the opportunity to meet Christian leaders serving in a variety of different cultures and settings. And as I think about the next generation of leaders who are growing and stepping into their roles, what gives you hope for the future, and what challenges do you see ahead for Christian leaders?
Vonna: Well, my hope is—God is on the move. Unfortunately, I'm not sure that it's easy to step back in the U.S. and see that. But it is really easy to see that around the world. I am incredibly encouraged by our young people today. I look at our kids’ generation, and I'm seeing some incredibly godly young people that are actually challenging me and my walk. I'm seeing people that are willing to make long-term commitments to where God's calling them, really in ways that I haven't seen in the last 20 or 25 years. So just as I said earlier, my family keeps me humble. I will say my kids and their friends keep me challenged even spiritually because of their commitments to Sabbath, their dedication to ministry and missions.
The other thing that I'm excited to see in young people is a couple of years ago I started peer mentoring groups for women that are in leadership in their 20s and 30s. I had two groups the first year. We had five groups last year. We have 10 groups this year. And now we've had people that have asked that the same thing would start for young male leaders. And so they're asking for this. Those are things that encourage me.
There are challenges. We know that there are challenges ahead. I think practical challenges are always finances and staffing and managing technology, all the things that those of us that are in administration handle, right? So we're kind of behind the scenes. But I think there's also some just current-day challenges. One of those that I see is a lack of middle ground. Whether that's in religion or politics or societal issues, it's difficult for people to find that common ground. Really for a lot of years, one of the things that I thought was amazing about ministries is that people would serve side by side in a ministry that they felt called to that they wanted to support. And they might be there for months before they happened to have this conversation with a coworker about where do you go to church? And then they'd realize, “Oh, wow. Well, I'm Baptist and you're Methodist, but, hey, we get along really well, and we have this common purpose that we're called to.” And now we have a lot of defining issues that are difficult to set aside and focus on the mission at hand, and so I would say that's a challenge. And I pray that we can develop cultures that are Kingdom focused, where we can love our neighbors well, whether that neighbor is a coworker, a person in the community, or someone on the other side of the world.
Al: Somebody said, that's an important commandment. Love your neighbor.
Vonna: Yeah. It's written down somewhere.
Al: Well, Vonna, we've learned so much. This has been a great conversation. Thanks so much. And it started off, and here's a CPA saying, it's all about people. And maybe that's one reason I've admired you so much over the years. And yeah, it's all about people. And we've been really focused on stewarding finances so much, really, and we're letting people atrophy in a lot of ways in many ministries. And then, coming right out and helping us understand that we need to steward the people that God has given us. And if they're not in the right job, it's our job to really help them get on track and get them in the right job, and that might be helping them with a transition. Yeah, I love that. Also, just all you said about self-leadership and the spiritually, intellectually, physically, even emotionally, how we need to be sure that we're on track and growing in all of those areas. And the importance in leadership around self-awareness and making sure we have good and vibrant spiritual practices that keep us obedient. And that's been a theme that you've said that really has touched me as, yes, we need to be obedient in what God is calling us to. And the importance of listening. And for leaders, oftentimes, we're focused on our job is to talk, but listening and how being transparent and present and repeating the takeaways and really focusing on asking the right question. I think, yeah, questions are really key. So I hope you have great success with your book as well.
So, Vonna, is there anything that you'd like to add to what we've talked about?
Vonna: Just one final encouragement. And life is challenging. Leading is certainly challenging. We've talked about personal leadership and stewardship and all the difficulties. But here's my encouragement, and that is we're not called to do it alone. The Lord's walking with us, and we need to be in some kind of community to keep a proper perspective. So I hope that this conversation’s a blessing to your listeners.
Al: Thanks so much, Vonna, for your contribution. And most of all, I appreciate your faithful leadership and commitment to equipping leaders to spread the Good News and to serve other humans around the world. So thanks for taking your time out today and speaking into the lives of so many listeners.
Vonna: Thank you, Al. It’s a joy to visit today and to serve ministries in similar lanes for so many years.
Al: It has been. Thank you.
Thank you so much for listening to my conversation with Vonna Laue. I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did.
You can find ways to connect with her and links to everything we discussed in the show notes and transcript at workplaces.org/podcast.
And if you have any suggestions for me about our podcast or have any questions on flourishing workplace cultures, please email me, al@workplaces.org.
And join us for a special edition of our next podcast, featuring insightful discussions with BCW leaders Robert Wachter and Cary Humphries. Together, they'll explore the state of the Christian workplace in higher education, exploring key trends and practical strategies to help universities thrive in mission and faith. You won't want to miss this empowering conversation.
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