Giselle: Are you truly wanting to have innovation in your workplace? And sometimes the answer is “no.” You might be saying, “I want it,” but you don’t actually want it. Sometimes what you really want is excellence. You want excellence, and there is a war between innovation and excellence, so as the innovative process goes through, you get less excellent for a while. You’re making mistakes, making mistakes, learning from mistakes, making mistakes, learning from mistakes, trying things, failing, trying again.
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Narrator: This is the Called to Flourish podcast, where leaders and cultures grow.
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Robert: Welcome back to the Called to Flourish podcast, where leaders and cultures grow. My name is Robert Wachter. I’m the Vice President of Sales and Marketing here at Best Christian Workplaces. Today we’re joined by Giselle Jenkins. She’s one of our Senior Consultants at Best Christian Workplaces. Giselle, welcome back to the podcast. You’ve been on the podcast before, but I’d love for you to introduce yourself to our audience.
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Giselle: Great, Rob. Well, thank you. Yes, I work at Best Christian Workplaces, and I have the pleasure of working with hundreds of our ministry partners. That’s what we call our customers, and when we work together, we go after really the things that they want to change, and one of those things can be that they want to have more creativity and innovation in the workplace, and so I have the pleasure of working with them and today we can talk a little bit about what that’s meant.
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Robert: Absolutely. Absolutely. We’re going to talk about innovation today, and so to just kind of set the stage for the conversation, you know leaders often talk about or feel they need innovation, but the question then becomes, when this tension arises, when innovation gets uncomfortable, when people begin to question an existing approach or maybe challenge the status quo or try something new, that maybe it doesn’t work too well, and so that’s what we want talk about, help leaders navigate that tension. So what worked yesterday might not necessarily work tomorrow, right.
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Giselle: Yeah.
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Robert: So sometimes people get stuck in what’s comfortable. When things are changing, markets are changing, technology is changing, and so often the greatest risk is standing still and doing nothing. So, Giselle, could you talk to us about how you can identify when an organization is sort of stuck there and this is working fine the way it is, and maybe cultivating a culture where people are afraid to bring their ideas.
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Giselle: Yeah. Well, and we have the helpful tool, don’t we, of doing the engagement survey, and so we can see. Do leaders feel the same as employees about that topic? Do they think it’s going well the way it is? And some of the signals that we will see on an engagement survey would be that people are giving lower scores around effective strategy. So, they’re seeing we are not necessarily serving the needs of those we serve, and it’s not happening. So, what would be behind that? And behind that often is the need to innovate and change and so what gets in the way of that, well, might be a highly traditional organization, an organization that values the tradition. Sometimes you don’t realize it, but what you’re valuing is the strategy for getting where your mission and vision are going, not the mission and vision itself, that actually the strategy. You’re very traditional. We’ve done it this way before. It was working. And no one in 2026 is sitting around thinking, oh, there’s no need to change, right, but sometimes we can find that our partners are stuck because of tradition. Sometimes they’re stuck because they are not welcoming diverse ideas to the table. So, imagine a group of people that have been all together for 12 years. They all came from the same background and experience. They’ve all been working on the same strategy. Now they’re frustrating – sorry – frustrated. They are saying, “well, it’s not working now”, but they can’t think their way out of it. Why can’t they? Because they don’t have the voices in the room. They might not have the frontline people in the room. So, there are all kinds of reasons that you get stuck, but part of the reasons are it’s just the leaders in the room trying to solve it. It’s not bringing in voices of the frontline or voices that are different. Another could be that they’ve turned strategy into their vision versus just – you know strategy is making your vision work, right, making it effective. So those are some of the reasons.
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Robert: Yeah. And how can a leader tell the difference between protecting the mission and protecting the way it’s been done, as you described, mission versus strategy. How can a leader assess that and say, you know what, I think we’re actually protecting the wrong thing here.
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Giselle: Yeah. Yeah. And Rob, you wouldn’t believe how frequent that is where employees are saying, hey, we’ve got to do things differently. Times have changed. People are using technology. We have different generations and this is not appealing to those generations. This happens a lot in fundraising. Fundraising in 2026 is not like fundraising in 1990. And so, as you think of, well, why are they using their strategy as vision? It’s comfortable. Humans get comfortable with what they know, what has worked in the past, and leaders will sometimes own the strategy. It’s almost a part of them. This happens a lot in founder-led organizations. The founding principles seemed like they were also, you know, the only strategy that would be effective. And can you imagine us now saying, well, we can’t spread the gospel anyway, but just showing up and talking to a person in person, that’s a preposterous idea, but it’s not to some, to some, and imagine the expense of getting on the plane, you know, getting the visa, getting the hotel, getting the transportation versus it turns out everybody has a cell phone, right, so that’s a good example of how strategy changes or how strategy doesn’t. So sometimes leaders themselves are stuck. Sometimes they don’t invite voices in the room. And sometimes - and I wouldn’t say this is the primary cause - they want to have the best idea in the room. They got to where they are today because they had great ideas, great ideas, great follow through, high intellect, and it turns out that you really need different voices. You need to be listening to the people on the frontline. So it can be that we do it to ourselves. We keep on thinking we have to come up with the ideas, right, rather than that safe environment that you talked about, an environment where someone - that you actually do listening tours, you listen to the frontline people. You say, how can we make this better? And you listen and try their ideas.
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Robert: Yeah. It sounds like you’re talking about a hiring approach that avoids kind of an echo chamber, sort of bringing in people that have similar backgrounds, similar ideas, similar, you know, organizational strategies, I guess. So, is that what you’re referencing? You’re talking about hiring and hiring diversity, and by diversity we’re not necessarily talking about, you know, ethnicity or gender per se – that might be part of it – but talk to us a little bit about how that hiring diversity, what diversity means there, and how it could play into innovation.
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Giselle: Yeah. Well let me take one step back from that. Okay. So, are you truly wanting to have innovation in your workplace? And sometimes the answer is “no.” You might be saying, “I want it,” but you don’t actually want it. And how do we know that? Well, sometimes what you really want is excellence. You want excellence, and there is a war between innovation and excellence, so as the innovative process goes through, you get less excellent for a while. You’re making mistakes, making mistakes, learning from mistakes, making mistakes, learning from mistakes, trying things, failing, trying again. So, I’ve seen hiring be the solution. Let’s hire a creative marketing person. They’re going to come in and make this place creative, bring new thoughts and ideas. They last about two years and they run out the door. The reason they run out the door is because it’s excellence that’s valued. Sometimes organizations don’t realize, well, we have five values, but the one that’s really important to us is excellence, and these people are coming in and saying “Try new things.” So yes, should you hire for diversity? Should you hire for people with you know just a passion for creativity and innovation? Of course, but you have to actually ask, what is the DNA of our organization? And that, once again, can be a founding DNA, so I worked, before I came here, for Prison Fellowship. It was founded in the DC area and it’s highly tied into the whole political system. They help get things done. They put laws into place. It’s a pretty amazing organization, right, and even though the founder died more than a decade ago, you can feel that everywhere. That’s a DNA aspect. That doesn’t eliminate – excuse me – limit innovation and change, but what if your DNA is excellence? So yes, I do believe that, but you really have to even take a step back and say, are we creating an environment where people can try and fail and experiment? And then you don’t necessarily have to hire differently. You just listen to your employees whose ideas are already there, waiting for you to capture them.
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Robert: Got it. Got it. So you can say, on the surface level, yeah, yeah, we understand we want innovation.
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Giselle: Right.
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Robert: Let’s bring in somebody creative or somebody with different ideas and then really just push that person out because you haven’t really built that idea of innovation and what the implications are--
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Giselle: Yes.
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Robert: --of experimentation and innovation against that driving--
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Giselle: Right.
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Robert: --core DNA of wanting excellence and protecting that. I guess if there’s a leader out there who’s wondering about innovation and feeling that, you know, the way we’ve done this is working, there’s a quote I love by Peter Drucker and he said that “The greatest danger in times of turbulence is not the turbulence; it is to act with yesterday’s logic.” You provided some great examples of, you know, spreading the gospel. If we were using yesterday’s technology and yesterday’s logic, we wouldn’t be getting anywhere in terms of—
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Giselle: Right.
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Robert: --how we can reach people through innovation and technology. Sometimes Christian leaders, and Christians in general, are a bit adverse to new things and see a boogie man behind new ideas and innovation and things like that, so we have to really be about, how does God want to work in these new technologies and these new ways of innovating. Of course, innovation is much bigger than just technology, but.
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Giselle: Right.
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Robert: So, you also mentioned something about kind of - this idea that we want your ideas. So, you know - but we know that not all, all ideas are going to work, right.
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Giselle: Yes.
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Robert: Innovation involves testing and trying things that--
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Giselle: Yes.
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Robert: --may not work, and we have to be open to that. So, talk to leaders about how sometimes, without even realizing it, they may be teaching their people to not bring forth their ideas. In other words, it’s just safer to keep their ideas to themselves.
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Narrator: Leading well starts with listening well. At Best Christian Workplaces, our Employee Engagement Survey helps you collect honest, anonymous feedback from your staff so you can lead with clarity. When you understand what drives team engagement, you retain top talent, increase productivity, reduce turnover, and uncover cost savings. We equip Christian leaders with research-driven insight to strengthen culture and lead with purpose. Because when your people flourish, your mission impact multiplies. Visit workplaces.org to learn more today.
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Giselle: Yeah. There are a couple of key things that I’ve observed that I think will be helpful. One is leaders will often formulate creative ideas in a vacuum or behind closed doors, and then they will take those ideas that they’ve already thought through, and they will say, hey, staff, we’ve vetted three ideas. We found the best one. Now we want your feedback. Let me just tell you, that is the worst possible thing you can do. And there are so many leaders in this room, as I was saying, well, you know, here’s the thing, Giselle, we invite voices in and we’re going to have all kinds of conflict. We’re going to have all kinds of arguing. We’re going to have all kinds of disagreements, and we’re not going to get anywhere. You know, you just can’t collaborate on some of these things. We will ask for feedback once we come up with the three best ideas. Here’s the problem. You are going to have arguments. You are going to have conflict. You are going to have conflicting ideas. Do you want them while you’re formulating a great idea that everyone’s going to go for? Or do you want them when it’s – you’re implementing them to your constituents, where an employee is saying, well, that was Rob’s idea. I know it’s not going to work well on the frontline, but Rob already said it was a great idea. That’s how he introduced it. I guess I’m going to have to try to make this work. Oh boy, right. Do you want that level of enthusiasm, or do you want to be, we were in here from the beginning. So you’re going to have conflict. You’re going to have conflict either at the start to create a great idea, or you’re going to have it at the end when people say, Rob didn’t think through these things well and he presented it as the best idea. So, leaders find that fascinating usually because they do the first thing. They always do the first thing, right, because they think they’re avoiding dragging it out. They think they’re going to get the best ideas. But go ahead and assume there’s going to be conflict and learn how to deal with conflict effectively. Assume that there’s going to be pushback, but do it in the first part. Don’t do it in the implementation part. So that’s one key idea that I’d like to share that I had to learn that the hard way, but once leaders do that, they find that employees open up because they were asked to give feedback before the idea was introduced, not afterwards.
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Robert: Right. Right. Can you take us inside an organization, maybe one of your consulting experiences, where leaders began to permit people to think differently and it actually changed the outcome? It changed something. Do you have a story you could share with us? Like what happened in a situation like that?
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Giselle: Yeah.
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Robert: Where that action actually happened and the culture changed?
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Giselle: Yeah. Well, I’ll tell you about a megachurch and in this megachurch the founding pastor is still there. The founding pastor was frustrated, saying, where are the good ideas? Where are the good ideas around here? And so we went in and started stimulating employees to bring their ideas to the table. We created all kinds of focus groups and ideas where you come and bring your lunch and you bring a topic and then we brought these topics and all of these ideas, which were pretty good ideas, and by the way, this church was doing well, but they wanted to do better in their reaching a very large community. And we brought the ideas to the pastor and he eliminated every single one of them, every single one of them, and even got upset about some of the ideas because – he almost felt like they should have known that would never work with our personality, but he had expressed himself so well that you have the freedom to do this, and it actually wasn’t the case. Well, so about six months went by, and you can imagine the culture then with none of the ideas moved forward, but a new person came in as the executive pastor, someone who didn’t have a stake in the past, worked really well with the lead pastor, and said, you know what, this is my thing to do, let me do this thing with employees, and so we had a reiteration of it where we had all those ideas and all those thoughts came forward and of course there wasn’t this sense of personal or ownership of the new person. He was able to steer that conversation well, and they were able to start implementing some of those great ideas, and so I wanted to tell that story because when you tell a story well, we tried this one thing, it worked great, no problem, it’s going to work, that’s actually more – this is an innovation story. This is what it looks like. It looks messy. Sometimes the top people push back, right, and should you stop there? And they didn’t. They didn’t stop there. They tried. Well, let’s try it a different way, and that’s what innovation is going to look like. It’s going to be like, hey, we had this great idea. Let’s do it this way. Ooh, what did we learn from that? We learned this. And then they tried it again, and with that second time around, with what they learned from it, they tried it differently, and it worked. So that would be one story that’s really great. They have put in a lot of positive changes.
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Robert: That’s fascinating because you know, talking about not every idea is a good idea, and sometimes ideas are brought forth and they get pushed back or shut down, which can be very discouraging.
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Giselle: Yeah.
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Robert: If you are trying to bring forth ideas, especially if you are invited to do that or there’s a sentiment of we want innovation and ideas and then it’s shut down. It can be very easy for a staff member or an employee to say, you know what, I’m just going to keep my ideas to myself next time because it doesn’t matter anyway, right, and so I want to – I want to explore that even a little bit more. It shouldn’t – innovation doesn’t mean chasing every shiny object.
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Giselle: Right.
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Robert: Or betting the farm on every idea that comes forth. So how do you create the room to experiment without creating a culture that chases every new idea?
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Giselle: Yeah. Well, think about breaking it up into three parts. Part one is let’s just take those creative ideas and let’s throw them like spaghetti against the wall. Let’s just not limit ourselves to how in the world would you implement something, and there are people that love that. You know at BCW we did the Working Genius and we saw there are people that love that wonder stage. I wonder what we could do, right, wonder what we can do? And so you get into that stage and you do throw the spaghetti against the wall and you do recognize we’ve got to see what stuck and come down to a couple of good ideas, like ideas that even us, wondering people, say these seem to be the best ideas. So, the first is – that’s called creativity. Okay. That’s creativity. We’re not limiting ourselves. We’re just imagining that everything was possible. You’ve got to move to phase two, which is, starting to innovate on that. So innovation is a process. It has to start with creativity, but it has to move into how we’ll make that work. And I learned from the Working Genius that I’m that next step, right, I love those people that come up with all those ideas. I can’t even imagine where they came from. Like that’s fantastic. My mind immediately goes, how do we take us and make that idea happen? What does it look like to take us and make that idea happen, right? That’s where the rubber hits the road for me, right. I get excited. The creative person now exits the room. They say, oh, that’s the weeds. Right. That’s the weeds. You’re starting to put boundaries on my idea, which of course, is that, but that’s what the innovation process is. Now how do we make this happen? Our resources, our location, our people, our mission, what does it look like there? So you work through that. You work through that, and that’s where the mistakes start happening. Therefore, you bring in all kinds of voices. Our own organization, as you know, is going through quite an innovative process right now, as we have a whole new software approach to the way we do surveying and so it would be crazy just to have creative people in that process, right. We need every kind of personality, every kind of talent, because now we’re taking the creative ideas that we had and we are innovating. We are changing each thing that we’re doing and making it different and making it work. That’s the innovation process. And then you have the implementation process, and that’s where your own staff and area might have gotten used to this new idea, but now you’re going to have help everyone else get used to it, right, so you’re going to have a whole another series there. So it’s much easier to think about it as the creative, and then the working through how we will do it, and then how we will we explain it and launch it. That’s the last step. Now if we go back to what we were talking about earlier, imagine that creative process happened and now you’re saying there is no innovation process. We just have to do what that leader said, right, and that’s where they’re going, how is this going to work? How will I explain it?
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Robert: Right.
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Giselle: So, yeah, that’s, you know, a healthy way to look at it. I always like to limit it down to, can my brain . . . ? Yeah, my brain can talk about three phases, right, so.
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Robert: Yeah. I love the way you’re describing this because I think sometimes when we think of innovation, you know, we think of Steve Jobs, for example, super innovative. Boy, a lightbulb goes off. He has this innovative idea and then voila, you know, here’s a product. Turn this into a product. But innovation, the way you’re describing it is for more of an integrated, systematic process. So it involves the idea and the lightbulbs and the creativity and that kind of brainstorming, no bad ideas, but then innovation really is more in the weeds and the nitty gritty process of testing and experimenting and creating multiple iterations and inviting different voices and perspectives into this kind of almost a grind of a process. Then it moves into a full implementation and spreading that across the organization, however that might look. The reason I like it is I think it may be a little bit more comforting to leaders who may tilt a little bit more analytical or process oriented to think of innovation as not just blowing around all these wild ideas all the time, but actually allowing that and cultivating that, but filtering that in through a systemized process that then produces something meaningful and an outcome that’s meaningful. I don’t know. That just struck me as, boy, this is – innovation really is different than the connotation I think that a lot of people have--
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Giselle: Yes.
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Robert: --about it. It is far more of a rigorous, necessary process than, you know, just a brilliant person with brilliant idea or a great brilliant team with brilliant ideas. It is something important. So, yeah, that’s interesting. I’m going to throw out another quote, just because I love quotes.
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Giselle: Okay.
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Robert: But Jeff Bezos said this. He said, “If you know in advance that it’s going to work, it’s not an experiment.”
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Giselle: (Laughing). I love that.
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Robert: (Laughing). Yeah, it’s not an experiment. So you’re not going to know in advance if this is going to work, and that’s again that tension. That’s where I think a process - thinking about innovation in terms of a three-step process like that and baking that into your culture—
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Giselle: Right.
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Robert: --which sounds a lot like what that church – megachurch – did.
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Giselle: Yeah.
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Robert: And they got to that point where they processed it. Would you say that that is the encouragement to leaders, is to reframe how you think about innovation?
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Giselle: Right.
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Robert: And invite that full process into your organization?
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Giselle: Yeah. I think, I think reframing it is important. I think getting ready for it is important. We can go back to, you know, what do you value in your organization? Do you value tradition? Do you value excellence? You’re going to have to cultivate your ground a little bit if that’s your main values because innovation is creative, messy, right. It’s that middle ground of true innovation where you’re trying to figure out how we are going to do something like that. You’ve got to – people have got to be open to that. And then you have to be good at explaining it to others. You have to be good at facilitating change management at the constituent level, whether it’s a congregation, whether it’s recipients of your benevolence, whatever it’s going to be at that end. So what I encourage all the time is what is commonly known as upskillingling, where we go and introduce new information to people that they haven’t had to have a skill like this before. This isn’t a skill that they have to have. So, I would encourage that not only the leader, or leaders, understand the innovation and what it really means and takes, as you so well described it, and have very broad training on what that is so each and every person knows it’s going to be three parts. It’s going to be messy, but I actually have a part in it, like the kind of things that I like to do, they’re going to be part of that cycle. I’m going to help make it succeed, and I’m going to be part of that original brainstorming if that’s my thing, if I’m more the person who wants to figure that out, or if I’m more of the person who wants to communicate it, there is a place for everyone. So I think a broad upskillingling is probably your best approach if you don’t have a naturally innovative environment where you’ve practiced it before. Then I’d go back to one other thing you said. You said something like, how do you get that started? Well, I think learning to make small mistakes and recovering from it, so you don’t want your very first thing you do to be, we’re going to completely change our worship service, if you’re a church, we’ll completely change it. You’d want to try one kind of change. Can we make a change like this, and can we get through it together? Ah, success, we did. It was hard, but we made success. We can mark down what was hard. Learn from it. So, if you don’t have an environment that’s proven that it’s good at change, start small. Make small mistakes. And then also encourage people to make small mistakes. So, we do a 360, as you know, at Best Christian Workplaces for hundreds of leaders a year, and we ask a question about that person. Does this person encourage learning from your mistakes? And sometimes a leader gets a bad score on that because they’re saying, oh no, my leader doesn’t think that mistakes are a good way of learning, right, so some self-examination might be necessary by leaders to make sure that they have the heart – their heart right. They’re going to allow small mistakes to happen.
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Robert: I’d like to share this. I’ll share this briefly, and then I want to talk about this resource you’ve created that will help leaders. But I was in a different role years ago and I was implementing an idea that had grown into a pretty substantial corporate idea and it was moving forward. It dawned on me, because I was a leader of marketing, what if this doesn’t work? You know, this is a big thing we’re doing here. And I turned to the CEO at the time, and he was also my boss. I said, “What if this doesn’t work?” It stuck with me. He just turned to me and said, “Then we’ll try something different, Rob.”
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Giselle: (Laughing).
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Robert: And it really, kind of, you know, I felt like I was off the hook in a sense, that hey, we’re doing this together. Not everything is going to work, and it’s okay if something doesn’t work just right.
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Giselle: Yeah.
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Robert: And then what do we do? We go back to the drawing board. We keep innovating. That just has always stuck with me. I like that sort of approach to thinking through this and how to motivate your people to stay innovative and to try things and to take risks and those kinds of things. But you have a resource, Giselle, that you created here at Best Christian Workplaces.
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Giselle: Yeah.
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Robert: Called Encouraging Innovation at Work. This is a free resource so leaders can – can you talk to us a little bit about this resource, how it might help a team?
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Giselle: Yeah. Absolutely. Well one of the ways that I have operated since I came to BCW was that I’ll do a number of consulting activities with our partners. They invite me in to do a deep dive. We’ve sensed a problem and an issue. They’ve said, hey, come in and help us solve this. And so, after I’ve done a couple of those consulting opportunities, I always take the time to think, as a nonprofit, how could we create a resource that documents a successful process where we have taken them? So, we have many topics, as you know, on our website, free resources. Those have come from opportunities to do it with our partners, watch what happens, watch what works, have them affirm that yeah, this worked and we see it work, and then I put it together as a resource. So after a number of opportunities and watching an environment where we want to be the kind of environment that welcomes the needed change that we have, whether that change comes from the people that we serve are changing, or it could be we need to have technology, or it could be that our resources are smaller now than they used to be. There are all kinds of reasons where you need change, but they’re not able to respond effectively to it. So when you look at this resource, this has been proven ways, things that stop you from being successful, things that can start you on the right road to being successful, how to welcome voices in. It’s a how-to that comes out of those consulting opportunities with real partners, real examples, and yeah, that’s what that is all about.
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Robert: Well, I know about this resource because I’ve seen it, so I highly encourage you, if you’re listening and you want a little bit of just some guidance, download that resource. It’s completely free. We will have that in the show notes. If you go to the website, workplaces.org, and you just go to podcast, you can find this podcast, download it from there. There will be a link to it. Also, we have a Resources section on our website with all of our free resources. You can just go there and look up Encouraging Innovation at Work, and be sure to download that free resource. Giselle, I want to thank you for being on the podcast again. A fascinating topic. As you mentioned, we’ve walked through this tension of excellence and innovation here at Best Christian Workplaces and we’ve lived this out. I think this is really, not only helpful, but important for leaders. So thank you very much for sharing your wisdom with us today.
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Giselle: Absolutely. It was a pleasure, Rob. Thank you.
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Robert: Amen. To everyone listening, if you found this conversation helpful and you think it could help somebody else, please do share. Just an easy click and share. Send it out to a friend. Send it on social media to whomever, whoever you think would benefit from this content, and be sure to subscribe to the Called to Flourish podcast so you do not miss what’s coming next. Thank you for listening, and we’ll see you next time.