The Flourishing Culture Podcast Series
“Leadership and Innovation Insights from Christian Higher Education“
November 8, 2021
Shirley Hoogstra
Intro: Hi, this is Al Lopus, and you've heard me say, “Feedback is the breakfast of champions.” And as a podcast listener, I'd love to get your feedback about how we're doing. Yes, we would like your ideas as we plan for the next season of the Flourishing Culture Podcast. Please help us do an even better job equipping and inspiring you to create a flourishing workplace culture. Believe me, this is a short survey and should only take a couple of minutes. So participate. Go now to bcwinstitute.org/contentsurvey. Please participate. I really would appreciate it. And here’s my promise: we will listen to your suggestions and act on them.
Al Lopus: Hi, I'm Al Lopus, and you're listening to the Flourishing Culture Podcast, where we help you create a flourishing workplace. The problem employers are facing today is that more of our employees are quitting than ever before. Some people are calling this the great resignation. And now with millions of open jobs, how can churches, Christian non-profits, and Christian-owned businesses face this tidal wave of resignations while attracting new, outstanding talent? And we know that having a flourishing workplace with fully engaged employees is the solution. I'll be your guide today as we talk with a thought leader about key steps that you can take to create a flourishing workplace culture.
So, now let's meet today's special guest.
The leaders of Christian colleges and universities face unique challenges as they train up the next generation. And even in your organization, as you face different challenges, we can all learn from the leaders of these institutions. Consider how leadership and innovation in Christian higher education impact other Christian workplaces, especially as you hire their graduates in the future years.
I'm delighted to welcome Shirley Hoogstra, and she’s the president of the Council of Christian Colleges and Universities, known as CCCU. Welcome, Shirley, to the Flourishing Culture Podcast.
Shirley Hoogstra: Al, I am so delighted to be here. And I love to talk about leadership and innovation, so I was looking forward to this all day.
Al: That's great. Thanks.
Well, you know, you have spent 15 years as the vice president for student life at Calvin University before you started with CCCU as the president in 2014. So what are some of the leadership lessons that you've learned, and as you've moved from this university now to the broader platform, what are some of the things that you've learned and are facing regarding leadership?
Shirley: Al, that’s a great question. And, you know, before that, Al, I was a litigator—
Al: Oh.
Shirley: —in a law firm in New Haven, Connecticut, and then spent about 13 years there and 15 years as a vice president on campus, and then, now going on eight years, with the Council for Christian Colleges and Universities, looking at the national level of leadership for higher education. And what I have found is that God knits your future together, and I always tell young people that they should pray more, they should risk more, and they should worry less. And I think I know that because of the way that God has led me in my life.
I graduated from Calvin College with an elementary-education degree, and I actually taught junior high, which I always say prepared me for everything. And then, of course, being an attorney and then going into a campus where, in student life, you're hit with all the frontline issues that are coming to campus, and then here at the CCCU.
So here are some, in that context, here are some of the things that I think are the challenges that I see. First of all, I think that we as leaders have to be comfortable in this post-COVID landscape that we're in, that you have to be comfortable with what I'm going to claim being roughly right. I think as leaders, we really want to be almost always right or certainly more right than that. But what COVID requires is us to say, look, we're not going to get all the facts at the time that we need them, and they're going to have a level of unpredictability to them. So, as a leader, you have to adapt from one style, which may have been more comfortable with more information, to a style which requires decisions and what I'm going to call a roughly right context.
The second thing that I think I have learned, certainly, in being a leader in this COVID time frame is that you have to put your people first. And that really is still the case today because think about health care, thinking about higher education, thinking about the business environment, the medical environment, people are tired, they're weary, and yet they have to keep going. And so how do you put people first, with limited kinds of tools? Like, how much more can you pay people? How much more time can you give off? How much more professional development can you give? So I think what people want is to be seen and they want to be heard. And so as the leader, knowing people's names; asking how people are; asking them, how are they doing? How is their family doing?
Thirdly, I'll just say this. I think that you need to capitalize on the opportunities that COVID has brought us. In my own organization, we had the opportunity to rethink one of our pillars because we had our study abroad. We had nine programs before COVID hit on March 30. We brought, you can imagine, we brought 250 students home safely. People all thought it was going to be done by July. Some parents said, “What are you bringing my kid home? They can weather it.” We're like, “Hey, the airports are going to close. You want to weather it for a year?” We didn't know, right? But we all hoped, right? didn’t we? that this would all kind of be done in the summer of 2020? And then it wasn't.
Al: We thought we were just going to wait for two weeks while we broke the curve, I guess was part of the terminology. Yeah, right.
Shirley: It was. That’s exactly right, Al. That’s what we were—we were thinking, “Hey, if we just shut down six weeks, we'll just shut down. We'll bunker in.” And of course, that wasn't the case.
So we took the opportunity to do a survey of our members. We had started it before, but we got the results. What was their highest value from our organization? And based on that, we found that we decided to keep three signature semester programs in that nine. And that was such a good decision for us because even now there's insecurity about traveling abroad, and we were able to really restep our financial formula by capitalizing on that opportunity.
Al: Well, I really like what you said, Shirley. And as I even reflect on it, be roughly right, put people first, and capitalize on opportunities, and we’ve certainly had opportunities kind of change the way we do things.
You’ve had a unique perspective and have a unique perspective on Christian higher education, and what are some of the key leadership challenges that you see in Christian higher ed today?
Shirley: Oh, you know that is such an important question, Al. I'd say three things, just someone that’s going to name some things that I think are both on the horizon and deeper than the horizon. We are seeing in almost every area of industry products being delivered in new ways. Okay. That gorilla is Amazon, right? And so we have seen this massive product-delivery system. Think about going out to eat. You don't even have to go out to eat. It will come to your door. People are using all sorts of delivery systems for that.
Well, in higher education, we are in the people-shaping business. In Christian higher education, we want people to love Jesus more after four years. We want them to have their lives shaped by the character of Jesus Christ. We want them to live out the fruits of the Spirit in society at large so that they have a global witness. Well, that isn't done by putting it in a box and bringing it to your door. It's by making sure that they have wonderful Christian faculty and mentors and great peer groups.
Now, the fact remains, though, that people are getting their educational information in very different ways today, and online, the pandemic shifted the whole world to competencies of being online. So how do we—and I'm going to use this phrase. It's a Greg Jones, now president of Belmont. This is his phrase—tradition innovation. And I love that for Christian higher education because our tradition is so strong about forming people through a faith and academic integration that you need to really be clear about the strong traditions. But then you have to pair that with the realities of innovation. So what Greg Jones would say is if you’re at a Christian college and university and you're a new president, read everything you can about the history of the place, and then tie your vision for innovation to the stories of their history. Doesn’t that make sense?
Al: Yeah. And that's a basis for appreciative inquiry. You know, we need to honor the past in order to move to a better future. I love that, yeah.
Shirley: That’s exactly. So tradition, in-class learning, right?
Al: Yep.
Shirley: Innovation might be—and there's a group called Campus EDU. They are making the Netflix online courses for tomorrow. So they're taking the best of a classroom experience and putting them online. Now that's tradition innovation in higher education. Hybrid courses are that, being able to meet with your faculty member both in their office and online.
Al: Yeah. Fascinating.
Well, so, innovation is one of the first keys, yeah.
Shirley: Yeah. And the second one is staying power. You just have to get up and do it again, get up and do it again. And if COVID has taught us anything, it is about making sure that you as a leader and your organization has staying power. So you got to look and say, okay, so what builds staying power? And this is where we look to scripture. And I read the Bible in one year, and I am just always grateful for the wisdom that comes from that leader. And he would say the word of God gives you wisdom and nourishes your soul, number one. Number two, though, is having the right team members, because you think of yourself as a group of horses pulling in the same direction. Use a stagecoach analogy in your mind or anything where you are pulling together. And you need consistent and competent co-leaders with you. That produces staying power.
And then, the third one is alignment through change. You have to be very thoughtful. When you bring change, which is one of the leadership challenges, how are you doing that in such an incremental way that you keep the alignment that keeps you strong and maintains your tradition while innovating?
Al: Yeah. Wow. So, innovation, staying power, alignment through change. I love the staying power, especially as we're coming out of COVID, and all leaders have had challenges in terms of perseverance, you know.
Shirley: Yeah.
Al: We've had more Baby Boom leaders retire early because they've just exhausted through COVID. But your point about not only wisdom from the Word, but having the right team and doing it together. I mean, I think that has been a key thing. And make sure leaders that are listening, you know. Do you have the right team, and are you working together and encouraging each other through difficult times? Yeah, yeah.
Shirley: And, you know, that goes back, Al, to people first. So if you want to keep your team, you have to really be thoughtful about—you know, there's a Harvard Business Review article just recently published that said it's really good to find out why people leave, but it's really important to find out why people stay.
Al: Yeah, yeah. And identify who some of your best performers are and actually go and meet with them and encouraging them to stay. We call those stay interviews. Yeah, exactly.
Shirley: You bet.
Al: Yeah.
Shirley: Yes, yes.
Al: Well, these have been great, Shirley. Great challenges. And as all leaders, we certainly see and face these and find great encouragement.
But how about some innovative ideas or programs that are moving Christian higher education into the future? What are you seeing? We, of course, hear a whole lot about new approaches to education, but what are you seeing?
Shirley: Well, the beauty about Christian higher education is you're dealing with an organization that is about learning, right? So if there can be innovative ideas and programs, you would think and hope, and in fact, they do, come out of educational institutions, and in particular, the ones I know best are Christian higher ed.
So, a couple facts. Thirty-five million Americans have some degree, but have not finished. Thirty-five million Americans. But, in fact, in 2025, there is going to be a demographic cliff for 18-year-olds. So go back 18 years and whatever was going on then did not produce a lot of new babies. And so what we have is a number of states that are going to be losing population and not having as many students in, obviously, grade school, middle school, high school, and in college.
So with that in mind, what innovations should colleges and universities be thinking about? And number one is adult-degree programs, right? And they have got to be ones that fit the single mom; the young adult who is maybe working at, again, an Amazon warehouse but wants to finish their degree. It has to be affordable and convenient.
A second one is advanced-degree programs. There are so many folks that now can access education in a way that is convenient for them, affordable for them, but Christ centered. And what we need more is the re-equipping of people for the jobs of the future. There's an interesting question that people ask: how many jobs were around that are here today that weren't here 10 or 20 years ago? And so if you want to be a cutting-edge university, you've got to be thinking about, how am I preparing the future workforce but with people who have all of the fundamentals?
And in fact, that's what a Christian college does so well. We have not given up on all the fundamentals, which we call the writing, the speaking, and the researching, those kinds of fundamentals. But you add them to really good professional programs.
Al: So, adult-degree programs, advanced-degree programs, online courses. Yeah. Let’s talk a little more about online courses and what you’re seeing there.
Shirley: So think about cyber security. Now, you know, Al, you and I did not have to worry about being hacked. We just did it, right?
Al: Yeah.
Shirley: But you know, you will find small, medium, large companies who have had cybersecurity issues. Again, for Christian education, what better kind of person to be in cybersecurity than a person who is really trustworthy and above the temptation of fraud? So that's a really interesting new program that is going on.
Health care. Think of all the ways that health care has changed and how it's not your categories of only physicians, only nurses. It's in the tech fields. How do you run CardioLab, right? They know how to take—if you want to get—your heart is in AFib; they now know how to shock that. All of the ways in which they can do cardio work through robots and through your vascular system, it's amazing, right?
So in colleges and universities, they have to be thinking about where are the cutting-edge innovations coming in technology and in manufacturing, and then get those people ready.
Al: When we hear things like, “There’s 10 million open jobs in our country,” and these are not all truck-driver jobs, that’s for sure. Most of them, because they’re unfilled, they’re more technology and jobs that require advanced education. So there’s real opportunities there.
Shirley: Mm-hmm.
Al: You know, many of us, when we think about higher education, we think about affordability, and college leaders have to manage enrollment and also balance budgets at the same time. So what do you see ahead for leaders in Christian higher education as they deal with these complex financial issues?
Shirley: Anybody who's listening to this podcast today who's a business leader knows that your biggest budget item is your people, people and benefits, right? And what we know is that if you want to have the kind of formative education—again, I think I started off with this observation—it is not going to be just through a screen. It's going to be having those individuals who know you, shape you, talk with you, relieve your doubts, have lives of inspiration so that you can see a future in the people that are teaching you.
So this is really a conundrum because, you know, they talk about tenured faculty and adjunct faculty. And you need the right mix because there are people who are giving their whole lives and doing scholarship and getting to be the best at their field. And then you need to have the right mix of individuals who maybe are good practitioners who also teach adjuncts, but you don't want to have a workforce in higher education and Christian higher education that comes and goes and never knows your student for the long haul.
So the affordability, and I'm just going to say you get what you pay for. If I were a parent and I were looking at a school, I would ask what the graduation rate is. So we see a lot about, we read a lot about for-profit universities, right? And they can be more affordable, and there's no question about it. But their graduation rates are terrible, and it's because they don't have the student-success staff. They can't intervene if you're having a mental-health challenge. How many young people do you know that have had some depression? I think that's what we're reading about, right?
Al: Yeah, right.
Shirley: So what we want to do is make sure that we have enough donor base to bring the scholarships to make the necessary cost affordable for students.
And the second prong of that is the United—all of us pay our taxes, right?
Al: Mm-hmm.
Shirley: And our taxes can go to a lot of different things. And I think the American public should say we want our taxes to go to support people who are going to college, and that's called the Pell Grant. And the Pell Grant has not increased in about years, but we certainly know that salaries have increased, benefits have increased, electricity has increased, technology has increased, all reasonable things for increases. And we have to say to our federal government, I want you to think about where are you going to spend your money but support the young adults of America to get their best education, double the Pell. So a Pell grant right now is $7,000. And if you doubled that Pell, you would reduce student-loan indebtedness, and you would educate the next generation of individuals. And again, the government has discretionary spending. Let's write to our representatives and senators and say, please support higher education. I'm not just speaking about my sector. I'm speaking about where you think you could get the best education, there should be government support.
Al: I trust you’re enjoying our podcast today. We’ll be right back after an important word for leaders.
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Al: And now, back to today’s special guest.
You know, Shirley, wouldn’t you say that one of the core advantages or attractions for a family to send their child to a Christian higher-ed organization is that discipleship, the smaller classrooms, and to help them move through that sometimes period of time in one's life that has a lot of turmoil in it, for sure, as they are maturing and growing? I mean, I think of Christian parents would love to send their kids to a Christian school in that regard. Would you say that's still one of the key drivers for kids going to a Christian higher-ed organization?
Shirley: Absolutely. I have two adult children who went through Christian higher education, also Christian day schools, because we believe, and I'm going to both speak as a parent and the head of a Christian higher-education association, 18 to 22, probably key years for forming a worldview. What worldview do you want your child to have? I would want my child to be set with a Christian worldview.
We know that every university, every faculty member, comes with a worldview, and you can be guaranteed that at a Christian college, your values are going to align with the faculty members’ values about what matters in this world, and what matters in this world is love God and love your neighbor. Go make disciples, be prepared to give the hope that you have, kindness. They think of all of the ways that your life is noble when it's a life of service, not just a life of accomplishment, all those really great things.
Do you want to have your young person, your child, in a dormitory where other young people are getting up to go to church on Sunday? I'm not going to say that everybody gets up to go to church on Sunday. I'm not going to say that. But I'm going to say that it's 80 percent, and they going to be talking about, hey, where are you going? What's fueling your soul? And there are going to be opportunities for Bible study on your floor.
And this is the kind of formation practices—and that's not even beginning to speak about what happens in the classroom, where you are looking at the heavens, the stars; you're looking at the cells in a biology class; you're reading literature; you're looking at your engineering future—don't you want to be shaped by men and women who have seen their lives shaped by the power of Jesus Christ? That's—I got to tell you, I can't think of a better investment than having your child in a higher-education institution that's Christ centered.
Al: Yeah. And I’ve often thought, don't we want to have all of our students, all of our children, actually have a mental mind map of what a Christian worldview and what a Christian life should look like based on what they experience at a Christian higher-education organization, that would form them to move forward as a person for the rest of their life? Yeah.
Shirley: Absolutely.
Al: Yeah.
So, I was just doing some calculations based on—this is the first time I've really heard that in 2025 there will be a cliff for 18-year-olds.
Shirley: Yeah.
Al: And so what happened 18 years before that was the Great Recession.
Shirley: Exactly, exactly.
Al: Yeah, 2007 and 2008. So, people were pretty consumed with other things at that point. But yeah, interesting demographic shift there.
Shirley: Yeah.
Al: Well, as we move on, a number of Christian colleges participate in our Best Christian Workplace Engagement Survey, and we find that the biggest driver for engagement in the sector is life-giving work. We have eight drivers, eight keys to employee engagement. Life-giving work is one of the ones that are so different that people experience in Christian organizations, and it's the sense that people have a meaning and purpose in their work. So what are some ways that you see in CCCU member organizations that they can grow in this area of purposeful engagement of their faculty and staff? You know, what do they already do that's great, and maybe some things that they could do to improve to slow turnover, for example?
Shirley: Yeah. Well, Al, I just want to say that your organization was so helpful to my organization when I took the helm about eight years ago. And we said we really want to know in our little association, are people engaged? Do our people feel that they have purposeful work? What kind of experiences have they been having with their supervisor? And I'll just admit, the first time we took the test, we were not a best Christian workplace. And that's exactly what I wanted to know. I wanted to know what were the diagnostics that could make us a better workplace? And your instruments were amazing. They were informative. They were non-judgmental. They put us on the right track, and we actually made some changes over the next two years. And we did come back two years later as a best Christian workplace because we actually asked what makes a happy employee at our association.
And I actually was at my, when I was on a campus, we also were blessed by your work when you came into the university setting and did a best Christian workplace diagnostic. And I'll tell you, your work was right on, both in the campus environment that I was able to experience your work and then in my own association.
So the first thing I think that people should do if they want to know if their staff and faculty have purposeful engagement is I think they have to ask the questions, and I think they can ask the questions—and I'm not just saying this because I'm on your podcast—but you need to have the right diagnostic tool, and you actually need a third party to ask those questions. So if I'm someone's boss, I say, “Hey, how are you doing?” how honest will they be?
Al: That's right. That's right.
Shirley: Right? But if I am given them a tool so that they can actually say, “My supervisor’s trustworthy. My supervisor is interested in me. Every year I have an opportunity to have a sit down and be either corrected or congratulated,” those are the kinds of questions that help you really know if your faculty and staff are engaged.
Now, outwardly, I would say that on our campuses, there is pretty low turnover when there is not a budget-related turnover, and that is because Christian colleges and universities actually have this little microcosm of things. They've got plays going on, non-COVID. You have plays. You have basketball games. You have football games. You have music recitals. You have student events that are internationally focused. You have a great coffee shop. You probably have the opportunity to have professional development by taking courses, right? So all of the things that you have identified in your best Christian workplace diagnostics are often on campus.
But things like, do you have a good relationship with your supervisor? Things that I think could always be done better is that supervisor-employee relationship. And the second thing I think that probably always can be improved is don't guess what your employee needs; ask what your employee needs to grow.
Al: You know, I was just looking at some statistics. There's a lot of conversation going around about this is the great resignation. You know, we're coming out of COVID. People are lifting their head up. Fort- eight percent, some say, of employees are actively looking for a job or they're open to another job. And it's really an interesting time. And your point is exactly, I just was thinking about your point, you know, and that is the supervisor-employee relationship, as you said, is the key, because if that's a good relationship, then it's going to take a 20 percent pay increase to have that person move.
Shirley: Yep.
Al: So you can keep your person, your high performer, in place, with a strong and effective supervisor or manager. Whereas, if you've got a manager that isn't engaging you and you're really not happy in that relationship, it takes almost no pay increase for that person to leave. So it's not a pay issue; it's really an engagement issue, and it comes down, in a lot of ways, to that relationship with the supervisor. That's a great observation, Shirley. Thanks.
Shirley: Well, Al, I’m interested in this question for you. You’re the expert in this whole area. What we have been finding is especially with your younger employees, they are not staying for the same amount of time, generally, as maybe 15 years ago, where someone would get a job, kind of stay, and there’d be high loyalty about that. And because there's just so much ability to move around in industry, I think that organizations maybe have to adjust what is a successful engagement length. It may not be 15 years or 10 years anymore. It could very well be, hey, if you have an employee for four or five years, that's pretty successful.
Al: Well, I’d say, Shirley, that our younger employees are actually expecting different things. So we see a variability in that length of time that they stay based on how they’re experiencing their workplace. And so, for example, younger employees are, you know, millennials particularly, are looking for a role that's bigger and more significant than themselves. So certainly, Christian higher ed provides that in many cases. Some cases, maybe not so much.
But they're also looking for organizations where they can have an impact. And again, it depends on the organization. If it's a staid, hierarchical, traditional type of an organization, well, they're going to find that pretty frustrating considering kind of their own life experience and what they're looking for. And I've got a daughter that works right now at Facebook in Silicon Valley, and she worked with a prior organization for four years, and, yeah, she thought, gosh, she has to move, she felt. You know, I didn't agree with her. But she felt like she had to move because if she didn't, then she would be perceived as not very innovative and stuck in a role in an organization. So I do see that as well. So there's two sides to that coin.
I haven't seen any real statistics that say that the younger generation is staying less. I see it more. And this was even true—so I worked with a firm that did a lot of employee data analysis, and even for Boomers, they would move and have several jobs early in their career and then stick in a job. So we're certainly seeing that with the current generation.
Shirley: Well, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I do think our young people are, I think, appropriately ambitious. They want to serve well, they want to maximize their income, they want to have this purposeful role, and I think they're a little less resistant to change.
Al: Right. Yeah, yeah. I think you’re right. And again, I’d just reinforce, they want to have input into what’s happening.
Shirley: Yeah. Yes, yes.
Al: We’re seeing in terms of Employment Engagement Surveys, for example, we see young people, younger millennials, in the workplace really enjoying and expecting that kind of opportunity to express their opinions in an open, honest, and confidential way.
Shirley: Yeah. That’s good.
Al: Yeah.
Well, it’s really interesting to see and hear the ways that Christian colleges are reaching out. Christian colleges are training our future workforce. I mentioned that earlier. And a lot of our listeners are Christian nonprofits, where your graduates of Christian higher ed go, or Christian-owned businesses. And so you're training our future workforce. And graduates from CCCU institutions will be the next generation of workers in both secular and Christian organizations. So as this generation grows up, as each generation grows up, specifically, they push against previous boundaries. What are some of the issues of this generation of college students that they're pushing on? What do you see? What do you hear from your members? Perhaps, you know, we hear a lot about social justice, sexual identity, technology, other issues. What are you seeing?
Shirley: I get this information by talking to our campus chaplains.
Al: Mm-hmm, okay.
Shirley: They often know of the hearts of students and where the rubber meets the road for them. And here’s one observation. Students today want fairness. So if they see a population that is being treated, in their mind, unfairly, then that is going to raise a concern for them. If they think that corporations are treating their employees unfairly, that would give them pause. If they think the police are treating people unfairly, that might give them pause. The government, all of our institutions are under a microscope for young people regarding their treatment and fairness is a big standard for young people.
I'll tell you another one. I think students today, if you're in a Christian organization and you're looking to hire people right out of college, especially Christian young people, they're going to watch their seniors in that organization, and they want authentic Christianity modeled for them. I was with a group of institutional and cultural influencers, and we were talking about this question. And when young people are looking out at the political landscape, the medical landscape, the church landscape, they're looking to say, “Do the leaders in those areas model authentic Christianity?” And they can become cynical if they don't see that. This is why clergy sexual-abuse situations or toxic work environments or leadership behavior that doesn't even look anything like the fruits of the Spirit, you ask yourself, “Is that what a Christian leader looks like?” So if you're a leader in an organization and you have a temper and you fly off the handle, your new employees will take a look at that, and it will not bode well, I don’t think.
Al: Oh, that causes me to think many things. When we look at our questionnaire, for example, the first of our eight drivers that questions fall into was we use factor analysis is our question into inspirational leadership: leaders exhibit the fruit of the Holy Spirit. I mean, that is the first question that falls into that most important or second most important in Christian higher-ed category. And you're right. Authentic Christianity modeled for them by their leaders is a key.
I recently just did a podcast with Jeff Lockyer, who was a church pastor, and Jeff said, you know, in his church, they're really focused on the question that Gandhi asked. “Well, I love your Jesus, but I really don't like your Christians.”
Shirley: Yeah, yeah.
Al: And it’s like, well, how can that be? So, yeah. Authenticity, fairness. Boy, that’s a great observation. And boy, that’s really kind of—you think about all we’ve been through, and that’s at the center of it, isn’t it, yeah, over the last couple of years. Yeah, super.
Well, Shirley, I know you personally have been an advocate for increasing access to education. Share some of the work that your member schools are doing with people in prison and also undocumented students.
Shirley: This is one of my favorite, favorite things to talk about, Al, because I was actually allowed the privilege of being a graduation speaker at the Fishkill Correctional Center in upstate New York. This looked like right out of a movie: dark red brick building; razor wire; old, clanky metal things. Here we are: picture yourself in a gymnasium that looks really like an elementary school gymnasium with a little stage, and Nyack University is putting on the Pomp and Circumstance for 50 men who are graduating with a bachelor's degree from their prison education program.
Picture an unusual day at the prison, where all of the graduates and all their family members can be in the same space, the same gymnasium, just like it would look like if it were in the general public. Think about the tears that are rolling down the faces of family members as their brother, their husband, their uncle, whatever the relationship, is walking across that stage, shaking the hands of President Scales, hearing the music swell as they call that name out. It's just amazing.
The prison's allowing not just Christian higher education, although there are 20 campuses that work in the hardcore-prison situation, and whether a person actually gets out or not, an advanced degree for a prisoner changes—this is what they said at Fishkill—it changes the culture of the prison. Now you have Christian-college graduates running the new-prisoner orientation. You have them working on the cell blocks, engaging with them over conflict. And this is all through a Christ-centered lens. It's resurrection here on Earth, Al.
Al: Oh.
Shirley: It's amazing. It's amazing. It's amazing. I just wish everyone could experience it. And the fact that most of the campuses do it out of their pocket. The government is not paying for us to come in and work in prisons. This is all out of mission-oriented commitment.
Al: That’s the gospel, right there, isn’t it.
Shirley: Oh, my gosh. It’s—I can’t tell you, to see the hope in the eyes of these men who may have five years, ten years, twenty years, or may be getting out the next month. And they get out, looking for a job now, with a, in this case at Nyack, bachelor’s degree. I was so proud. I was so proud.
Al: Yeah. And what a difference that makes with the self-esteem of an individual. That's huge.
Shirley: The recidivism rate, by the way, is almost zero.
Al: Wow. What about immigration? What have you seen there?
Shirley: Well, we've all been watching and reading, really, for the last decade about how broken our legal-immigration system is. And, you know, I'm a product of immigrants. My grandparents were immigrants, and they didn't go to college. My parents did not finish college, and all of my siblings and I finished college. This is the story of an immigrant. But we need a new legal-immigration-reform system. People are leaving and walking. No, I’m not talking about a drug cartel. I'm talking about regular, ordinary folks who say, “Look, I have no future in this country of origin. If I can just get into the United States.” As Christians, we need to be in the messiest problems possible. Because we have the hope of the gospel, we don't need to be afraid; we need to be problem solvers.
Now, it's a sticky-wicket problem. That being said, we know that from DACA, these are young men and women who, under President Obama and then under President Trump, are able to go to college, register and go to college. They are some of the finest students because they do not take for granted this opportunity. So one of the things that we work on is the evangelical immigration table, and the CCCU is very involved with working with our Congress to press for legal immigration that would help solve this limbo problem and the border problem, safe borders, but with a good system for the opportunity to be an American.
Al: Wow. So, prisoners and immigrants all being served through Christian higher ed.
Shirley: Yeah.
Al: I just love it, yeah.
Shirley: Yeah.
Al: And I've helped to start a school in Guatemala, and I know exactly what you're saying. You know, great people who work hard and don't take anything for granted and love the education they're receiving, yeah.
Well, Shirley, it's been great to hear about the ways Christian colleges are reaching out. You know, Shirley, gosh, we've really learned so much from you and this conversation. As I think back and I look at even starting off with your opening line that God knits us and knits our future together. So we all have a future, and God knits it as we prepare for what's coming. And I think that's just really wise. You mentioned challenges. You know, your point about, well, let's be roughly right. You know, let's not get stuck trying to be perfectionists about what we should be doing. The speed of change is increasing, and so we're never going to be 100 percent right. Let's be roughly right, you know? And then, of course, how are we going to deal with this change and deal with all this is putting people first, as your point, which is really great. Great insight. I love the way you describe the leadership challenges that we all face, and I know that Christian higher ed is facing a number of them. But I loved your point about staying power and perseverance, and as leaders, we need to just realize that if we just stay in the battle and not quit, we get so much further. And having the right team and pulling together with that team to do that is really a key. That's just great. And, you know, I think about just the stories of how important it is to have the future generation of Christian workers go to a Christian higher education, where they learn about a Christian worldview and are taught by faculty and staff that have Christian worldviews and how that will impact all of our futures for the positive and in the future. So just great thoughts, Shirley. Thanks so much.
Is there anything that you'd like to add that we haven't talked about yet?
Shirley: Oh, Al, I just will close with a quote from someone who I thought captured the essence of Christian higher education, if I could. David Brooks, some of you know him as a columnist, a writer, an author, a speaker, and he came to our president's conference a couple of years ago, and he observed this about Christian colleges. He said, “You have what everyone else is desperate to have: a way of talking about and educating the human person in a way that integrates faith, emotion, intellect.” Here's the phrase, Al, I love so much. “You have a recipe to nurture human beings who have a devoted heart, a courageous mind, and a purposeful soul.” A devoted heart, a courageous mind, and a purposeful soul. Wouldn’t we want the next generation of employees, the future workers and leaders of America and the world, to have a devoted heart, a courageous mind, and a purposeful soul, all based on Christ?
Al: Amen.
Shirley Hoogstra, president of CCCU, thanks so much for your contributions, and most of all, I appreciate your devotion and service to our loving God and equipping leaders who are raising up the next generation. Thank you for taking this time out today to speak into the lives of so many listeners. I appreciate it.
Shirley: Thank you, Al.
Al: And please don't forget to participate in our podcast survey. Please go to bcwinstitute.org/contentsurvey. I appreciate your feedback. Thank you.
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