David: Wouldn’t you rather know? Do you really – do you really want to be in intentional ignorance? Do you really want to have your head in the sand? Do you really want to walk through life assuming that you are something and that you’re perceived a certain way and never ask the question? Do you really not want to try to get better?
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Narrator: This is the Called to Flourish podcast, where leaders and cultures grow.
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Robert: Hello and welcome back to the Called to Flourish podcast, where leaders and cultures grow. My name is Robert Wachter. I’m the Vice President of Sales and Marketing at Best Christian Workplaces. Today we have the guest, David Corry, with us, with Liberty University. Welcome to the podcast, David.
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David: Thank you. Glad to be here.
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Robert: Glad to have you. So, David is the General Counsel for Liberty University, and if you’re listening to this podcast, chances are you’re very familiar and you know about Liberty University. They have a vision and mission of training champions for Christ. They have a wide range of ungraduated, graduate, and professional programs, and they have a very strong residential and also online education program. Today we’ve invited David onto the program to chat a little bit about his experience working with Best Christian Workplaces in Leadership 360’s leadership coaching and executive coaching. And we just love his story and excited to share the journey that he’s been on with all of you. I know that we’ll glean some great insights as the Holy Spirit leads this conversation. David, you know, just to kind of set the context, in grappling with this question, can seasoned, experienced leaders actually grow? Can we change? Can we improve? That’s the question we kind of want to look at for this podcast. Many leaders, they wonder, they grapple with that question, is this possible? So, that’s what we’re going to get at today. I want to just start, David, with kind of the idea of the power of feedback. So David was part of the Leadership 360 process, so this is a kind of a 360 view of leadership at Best Christian Workplaces. I’m on the Leadership Team. We do that same Leadership 360 and coaching with us as leaders here at Best Christian Workplaces, so I’m very familiar with it. But can you kind of share, David, with the audience what that process was like for you in kind of going through the employee engagement survey and going through a Leadership 360 assessment?
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David: Well, first of all, I’m 62, so we’re talking about seasoned leaders. I’ve been working since I was 13, and this was a new process for me. I’ve never, in all of those years, had any kind of opportunity or invitation to engage in this, much less to have my employer say, you know, this is what we’d like you to do. So my first response is, it was a new thing. I’d heard of it. I’d had other people, in fact, offer me copies of reports that they had had, and different things, and talk about it, so I was a little bit familiar with it as a concept. But personally, it was all new to me. Can we change? We better change. My President and our Chancellor were determined that, based on the whole Best Christian Workplace climate survey that had been done, that the entire workforce at the University, that we were ripe for improvement at the executive level, and on every level, but leadership has to set an example, and so it was very important to my boss, my new boss, and so, you know, you’re going to get onboard with that or you’re going to be going against the tide, and I’m not an a guy that wants to go against the tide. So, I had to figure out how to – how to do that. It was presented as, hey, we’re going to have the same company that did the – did all the surveys is going – has this additional offering, and you’re going to get a coach and pick some stakeholders in your organization, some above you and some below you, some at your level, some that you just work with but they don’t directly, you know, not in your line of authority or line of the chain of command. I think I had to pick 15 or 16 and they were surveyed, asked a lot of questions, open-ended questions, numerical-response questions, and I got that, and then I had to figure out with my coach what to do with that and where to go from there. You know, I was already a little bit prepared because, you know, we had already done the culture survey for the entire school, so I understood generally how employees felt. It gave me a breakdown for my office, so I kind of had a feel for that, although I might deflect a little bit and assume some of that had to do with generalized leadership, but not necessarily mine, but this was me. There was no dodging it. So, yeah, I had to look at it straight in the face and see how people saw me. Some people were happy and thrilled with what I did and how they saw me and how we interacted, but other people were really the other end of the spectrum. I mean it was, it was, it was amazing to see the spread. I think they called it a deviation stair. My coach told me at the time. I forget what the term was, but we had people on both ends and I had to figure out if I was just going to be content with my fanbase and tolerate the rest or whether I was going to say that maybe there are some people out there that have something worthy to say and perceptions that are worthy of being acknowledged and addressed. I chose the latter. I chose to see it as a growth opportunity. I guess I was 60, maybe 60 or 61 when this kind of rolled out, but I’m already looking at succession planning and that end of it, but I still I thought owed it to our people, I owed it to the organization, I owed it to my boss, to figure out if I could continue to get better, and it’s part of the Christian process, I think. We’re never fully refined. We’re never fully sanctified. This is just a lifelong process so that it should also happen in the workplace, you know, so be it. So, I signed up and I said, let’s see what we can do. I tried to go into it with that attitude.
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Robert: I love it. A few things that are standing out. First of all, this Leadership 360 truly is, as you described, David, for our audience, it is a 360, so you’ve got direct reports, you’ve got peers, you’ve got folks that just work with you, and they’re speaking into – what is your experience working with David? And you had kind of, you said two ends of the spectrum, which kind of gets me thinking, like we all love affirming feedback, that’s great. We all want to be affirmed. We love that kind of positive feedback, but often with these 360s there is going to be feedback that is not fun or pleasant necessarily for us to hear. What really is required, which is part of what I love about your story here, is leaders must approach this kind of thing with humility.
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David: Yeah.
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Robert: Because it is so natural, instinctual, for us to react and get defensive and sort of want to protect ourselves from any kind of feedback that might not be glowing.
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David: I can’t deny that that wasn’t there too. I’m human. First read of that stuff, you know, that stuff naturally wants to come up.
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Robert: Yes, yes. It wants to come up. So talk to us about that. How did you manage that? Because you truly did step into this process with humility and with courage and all of that, which is required in order to get results out of this, but how did you manage that when those feelings and that natural reaction of wanting to sort of defend or sort of push back on the feedback? How did you manage that and actually get to a place where you said, okay, I’m going to actually allow this to work its process? How did you navigate through that tension?
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David: It wasn’t a switch. It wasn’t a decision. This, this, this – each month got resurveyed, you know. There was more feedback every – so each time I get to kind of go through this, this feeling of getting another wave of feedback, you know, because they want it. Every month I’m going back and asking these people, what else can I do? What can I do better? How did I do last month? I’m asking these questions and I’m opening myself up for it. So, I can say that at the beginning of the process, I said, I’m in, all in, and that was said and done. This was an ebb and flow, a cycle, wave. I’m not sure what the right word is, but it wasn’t a constant, linear path. It was an ongoing wrestling match, and I had my coach, which is great, because you get to have that frank conversation with someone who’s on your side and you get to kind of, you know, have your cathartic expressions and you know go through the feedback and so forth and process it, I guess, to use a counseling term. So, I had that opportunity. That certainly was helpful. But through that, you buck yourself up and you find, you find you’re preparing for that meeting too, so you already know what it’s going to be and what you think your plans will be, and you kind of work together on them, and then you kind of get yourself up to doing, and you’re seeing progress along the way. That’s encouraging. That helps you keep – that helps you keep, keep moving, keep your head in it. You – that’s helpful, but I think I did decide to do it and I stuck with it, but it wasn’t as though I wasn’t, you know, tempted to reconsider at various times. There was – there were some people that it seemed like there was no pleasing, and that’s a very frustrating thing for kind of a type A, execute guy like I am, you know.
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Robert: Yes. Yeah, look. I’ve done what you asked, but you’re still not happy, kind of thing, and that can be very frustrating. What it sounds like I’m hearing is this – it’s just a decision, an intentional decision. I’m going to stick this through, and the coaching part of that really helps. With 360, there’s also supplemental kind of coaching that can go along with that to guide you through this process of change and growing and leadership, which it sounds like that was really integral with that as well.
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David: Yeah.
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Robert: Something you could – you could honest with, hey, this is how this feedback’s hitting me, and then the coach is gracious with that, and then, but we stick to this plan of growth. What I’m hearing is just a decision. Look, this isn’t always fun, and I’m not saying that I love this, you know, every day, but hey, I’m committed to this process, and that seems to have worked very, very well.
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Narrator: Leading well starts with listening well. At Best Christian Workplaces, our Employee Engagement Survey helps you collect honest, anonymous feedback from your staff so you can lead with clarity. When you understand what drives team engagement, you retain top talent, increase productivity, reduce turnover, and uncover cost savings. We equip Christian leaders with research-driven insight to strengthen culture and lead with purpose. Because when your people flourish, your mission impact multiplies. Visit workplaces.org to learn more today.
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Robert: I’d like to kind of talk a little bit more on kind of the next stage of that as kind of – what was your experience in terms of, you got the feedback, you continued to get feedback, you were working with your coach, you had the data, and you were on this plan of growing and changing, you know, as a leader – something, by the way, that we all need, you know. They say that the best athletes in the world, the greatest athletes in the world, need coaches, and I believe that transfers directly to executives, to leaders, pastors, whoever you may be, as skilled as you may be, you know, we all know coaching. We all need continual process and tweaking and growing and never really being satisfied, so I commend you for that. But I’d love to dig into a little bit. Like what exactly were you working on? What was changing? What were some of the things that your coach and you began to work on that seemed to provide dividends?
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David: I would quibble with one thing. I don’t know that we all need coaching. I think we could all use it though. I think it’s good for everyone. But the fact of the matter is there are millions of people who go through life and never get a bit of coaching, formal or otherwise, and they live, so I mean, and they maintain their position, so there is the do-nothing option. It’s there. It just really wasn’t an option for me. You know, it was what was being provided, and I’d never had it my whole life, so I said, you know, this is my chance. Let’s see what it can do. And I also don’t mean to discount prayer and the spiritual side of this because there’s a battle there too. But all that came together with a like-minded Best Christian Workplaces, where we’re in faith alignment, so we were able to talk about these things, and my coach was able to address these things almost from a little bit of a counseling standpoint, and a little of a fellow executive standpoint, and then also from a spiritual viewpoint. We talked about these things from all those different angles. So, the question was, you know, what did we do with that data and how did we move forward? Well, we – part of it was asking for suggestions of what - and every month I’d get a different number of suggestions. Sometimes there were more. Sometimes there were less. And we were trying to pick one or two things each month that I could add to my plan of things that would be good, and my things were I needed to improve in listening, collaborating, and showing sensitivity to other people’s, you know, feelings and concerns. You know as an attorney, I’d would kind of be cut and dry and cut right to the chase and respond before, you know, really showing that I had listened, showing that I had cared, and been a very busy one too, so in my mind I justified it by, who’s got time for that? And then there was the whole needing to - improving collaboration with people, and so those were my two things, and so, you know, letting people finish speaking before just refocusing and asking questions, taking time to pause. These were the kinds of suggestions I was getting, and we would do two, and I had a portfolio. I still do. You know, whenever I go to meetings, I’ve got the padded ones, and so I’d have little reminders over there of the things I was going to try to do this month in meetings and in encounters with people. Towards the end we were getting down to things like, you know, dropping in on people without an agenda and just talking to them, letting them feel like they were – I was connecting with them and I cared about them as individuals, complimenting other people’s work more regularly, just a lot of things like that. But the suggestion list was, probably by the time the year was over, it might have been 70 or so suggestions that I had received, and we were just trying to find a workable number each month to kind of emphasize, then add to the list another two each month, and so on and so forth. So, I guess from a nuts-and-bolts perspective, that’s kind of how we did it, and you know, continued to solicit feedback. I think on a quarterly basis, the stakeholders were surveyed, you know, anonymously to see how it was going. I was trying to keep them all aboard because that’s part of it, is keeping them engaged and feeling like this is worth their time, as everybody has got a lot to do. But, you know – and sometimes people just – they don’t get back with you, so you call them, and you don’t wait for the email. You know, you get an in-the-hall kind of response, but you know we just try to keep dogging it and keep going at it and you know not having a conversation with somebody when they gave you feedback, to challenge it, or to question it, or to in any way make them feel like they were in danger or that they were – that they had offended me or that they had – that this was not going to be taken seriously, so I had to adopt a yeah, thank you, thank you very much for that, just not challenging one thing that was said and just taking it in and then figuring out with my coach you know what kind of weight I was going to put on it and whether it was going to make it into the next month’s plan. I don’t know if that – I don’t know if you were looking for a nuts-and-bolts kind of answer.
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Robert: No. That’s perfect.
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David: The mental process.
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Robert: I love that. You know, listening, collaboration, empathy, you know, explaining the why behind these. It just kind of struck me as you were talking, nothing about what we’re talking about here in terms of the coaching, the practical things that you were doing to change and to grow, none of those are like earth-shattering concepts, right. They’re simple. It’s hey, people want to know that you – you heard them, you empathize, it’s the relational part. It kind of got me thinking, okay, these are not, you know, difficult, complex tactical things that you would implement. To me the challenge seems to be the ingrained habits, right. So you mentioned, you kind of alluded to this, hey, I’m 60 – you were 61 at the time – 60 or 61 at the time when this all started, and speak – talk to me about that. Do you feel that really this is really all about ingrained, learned habits that have become so baked into how we think and process and lead that it is kind of attempting to establish and build new habits, which is not an easy thing to do. It does take a real sense of commitment and sticking to it, but is that a fair assessment that there are habits formed that you were challenging and maybe defaulting back to the old habit and having to re-correct it and course correct it?
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David: Yeah.
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Robert: Over and over and over?
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David: Yes and no. Some of this was ingrained from communication styles I had for a really long time. Others had come about over time as I, you know, rose up in leadership and had a bigger team and felt more pressure and it maybe shortcut some of these softer people skills that I think I probably had a much better arm around in my younger days, but had kind of, for one reason or another, failed to draw on them as much or maybe didn’t think I had to because I had, you know, maybe a position that that was more important to do when you were being solicitous of someone over you, but when most people were now working for you, maybe you didn’t have to. I thought I was the best guy as a boss. I thought I was better than the bosses I had had before me. I’d worked at all top-down structures, I mean, from – before law school, every firm, my corporate life, nonprofit work, every – ministry – everything was a very strong top down, salute, get with the program or leave. You know, that was just the environment I’d worked under, and I thought I was like this great improvement over everybody else that I’d worked for in those kinds of environments, but I was kind of kidding myself, and maybe I was, but who said that’s where the bar should be? You know, we’re trying to - we’re trying to be more collaborative, more team oriented, and then, let’s face it, this generation of workers today is not – is not down with that. They’re just not and they’re not going to put up with it, and so it’s a different workplace model. So anyway, to bring it back to your question, yes, there were ingrained habits that got there for a variety of reasons, cultural reasons, everything I was trained on, everything other people did, and I thought I was doing something a little bit better, but it wasn’t near enough, and I guess I did what I could get away with. I did what I thought was good enough. I don’t think I was hateful or evil, but it just – it lacked. It left a lot to be desired for people who wanted more from a boss, wanted more from the workplace, wanted to feel a genuine love and a member of a team kind of thing. You know that’s where the need to do that and the idea to do that really was the most working. Maybe other people had a whole other list of suggestions, but these were – this was my story. These were the kind of basic relational kind of things that I needed to kind of relearn and some do for the first time.
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Robert: Yeah. So the coaching you were on, you got your data, your Leadership 360 data, you had kind of a debrief about that, then you established this 12-month coaching. So, I guess, I’d love for our listeners to get a sense of when did you start to realize - okay, I think some of these new habits are beginning to form. I think that people are beginning to actually experience some of these changes and tactics and habits that are being formed now. When did you realize that this was actually working for you?
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David: The first – after the first month of feedback. I was able to do it. The first two months I think were, you know, basically shut up for longer. Those were my two things in the first two months. It was don’t jump to answer, stop, you know, listen, let other people talk first, you know, you don’t have to – anyway. So, I was very conscious in meetings and in group settings to do that, and it was fighting, okay. Guess what, somebody said something I could have said. Well, now I didn’t have to say it, and oh. In any event, I actually found I could do it, so that was good, and then people noticed, maybe because it was so, so different, I don’t know. But I was getting decent feedback, and it was – so I felt, I felt momentum for pretty close to the get-go. It was daunting, the task in front, but really, in the first month I started to go, okay, we can do more. We can add things. So yeah, I hope that helps you.
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Robert: That is. That’s very insightful. You got some early momentum, and it sounds like there was a moment of hey, I think I can do this.
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David: Yeah.
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Robert: This actually seems to be working. Folks are actually responding positively to this. Would you say that some of these habits that you had, you mentioned you had some notes and you were kind of prepared, are they becoming more natural now? Like over time, did they become more ingrained into kind of your default settings versus something where you know you have to have kind of a checklist there?
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David: Some yes, some no. You know, nothing is 100% with me. But yes. In preparing for this podcast, I was looking them over, and I was thinking, um, I’m probably letting that one slip a little bit. So I’d be less than honest with you if I said, yeah, it became second nature and it’s really no big deal now, and I’m looking to expand the portfolio. I’m glad we’re doing this podcast because it’s reminded me. It really takes intentionality and as much as you might think, why are we meeting on this again this month? I mean, I felt like we just met. There is something about that, keeping it front and center, keeping it on the front burner, feeling accountable, all of that, there is something to it. There is. It’s bound to get more results than kind of having an annual plan and looking at it in the beginning of the year and then looking at the end of the year and saying, how did I do? Just this monthly check-in, a gut check, and feedback loop was really the genius of it.
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Robert: Yeah. This is super inspiring. I love this story. I want to ask just a couple more questions, and then we can wrap it up. But one of them is, you know, I want you to speak maybe to the leader who is listening who has been successful, but maybe is considering this kind of thing, but isn’t sure if they really want honest feedback. What would you say to a leader who is considering something like this, is unsure about it, maybe apprehensive, what would you say to that leader?
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David: The only way it’s going to hurt is interpersonally, in here. It’s just feedback. You’re still in control. You’re still going to decide what you want to do and what you don’t want to do. But wouldn’t you rather know? Do you really – do you really want to be in intentional ignorance? Do you really want to have your head in the sand? Do you really want to walk through life assuming that you are something and then you are received a certain way and never ask the question? Do you really not want to try to get better? Do you really think you’ve arrived? Ask yourself those things and just be honest with yourself. I was in the position that, hey, this is what we’re doing, so I didn’t – I had to be onboard. But I’m sure other people are just - it’s completely a discretionary decision. They’ve just got to decide. Do I want to go through the time and effort to see if I can bring it to a better level or a higher level? And I would just encourage you to do it because I don’t think you’ll regret it. Yes, there is going to be some, like I said, there’s going to be a little, you know, heart hurt when you read things about yourself that you just didn’t imagine somebody would think. Gosh, wouldn’t you rather know? And you know what, they’re still there. They didn’t quit. It wasn’t that bad. But they’d like for you to – they’d like to love you more. They’d like to respect you more. They’d like to work harder for you and enjoy it when they do it. They’re really with you. They could have just signed a bunch of 555s - love them, love them, love them, and maybe that’s what some of my people were doing, I don’t know. But then, those who are going to invest in some really detailed things, I mean, that’s a commitment to the team, and that shouldn’t be – if you’ve got people that are willing to do that, that’s actually a really great thing. They want to help you get better and they’re going to invest their time, their words, they’re going to risk, you know many of them are going to, you know, be people that are one or two levels, you know, reporting to you, and so they’re risking something by just having this regular feedback. Some things are anonymous, but somethings are not, and the fact that they will do that is really something that you can really come together on and take it to a higher level. I’d just encourage you to do it. I don’t see what you’ve got to lose, other than to lose.
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Robert: A little - a little pride.
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David: Yeah. A little pride.
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Robert: What’s the biggest thing you learned that you’d like to share? The one thing, the biggest thing, through your journey so far that you want other Christian leaders to remember that you learned in this process?
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David: You don’t have to have as many answers. You just think you do. Other people have a lot of wisdom and can help out in a lot of ways, and if you get out of the way of yourself, you can really see how much more they have to offer.
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Robert: Amazing. Well, I don’t have any other questions, and I feel inspired. I’m ready to take a Leadership 360 myself and go through coaching myself. So, I appreciate your feedback, David. I appreciate your time. Thank you for being transparent and willing to share your journey and story with us. I can just tell you, I know that there are those listening who feel challenged, feel inspired, and that this is going to really help them. So, I appreciate all of your time and being a part of this podcast and the amazing work that you all are doing at Liberty University. So thank you, David, for being on the podcast today.
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David: Thanks.
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Robert: God bless you, sir. You’re very welcome. To all of our listeners, thank you for joining us for this episode. Be sure to share, like, send this off to a colleague, a friend, anyone you think would benefit from this type of content. We learned today that as leaders flourish, the cultures, their areas, the departments, flourish as well, and that’s what we want. We are called to flourish as leaders and as organizations. Until next time, God bless you.