Michael: It comes from a strong conviction that – I mean, we talk about stewardship a lot at ECFA, and I think people’s minds almost automatically go to finances, and certainly there are financial implications. We could talk about the financial implications of a good culture, but ever more than that, just based on the firm belief that our people are our greatest stewardship.
Narrator: This is the Called to Flourish podcast, where leaders and cultures grow.
Robert: Hello everybody and welcome back to the Called to Flourish podcast, where leaders and cultures grow. My name is Robert Wachter. I’m the Global Marketing Director here at Best Christian Workplaces. We have a great episode for you today. We have Michael Martin, the President and CEO of ECFA with us. Welcome to the podcast, Michael.
Michael: Hey Robert. I know I’ve shared this with you, but we feel like we are just part of the BCW family, so it’s great to be with you on the podcast.
Robert: You are part of the family. ECFA has been partnering with BCW since 2008, so it’s been many, many years. Just for our audience, Michael is the President and CEO of the Evangelical Council for Financial Accountability, probably known by most of us as ECFA which equips organizations through accreditation, education, and governance guidance. Michael’s also an attorney and a CPA with deep expertise in nonprofit governance, financial stewardship, and ministry accountability. So ECFA, I think, was founded back in – was it 1979, Michael?
Michael: You’re right. Yeah. We’re coming up on 50 years here pretty soon. Yeah.
Robert: Fifty years. Wow. That’s amazing. You serve churches and all kinds of other ministries as well.
Michael: We do. Just about every type of evangelical ministry in the United States is accredited by ECFA, so just about 2,700 members all across the country.
Robert: Amen. Amen. Incredible work that you guys do. So we’re going to jump into some of this feedback and insight from Michael on their culture because it’s really phenomenal. ECFA is known externally for their financial integrity and accountability in the work that they do, but internally they have built one of the healthiest workplace cultures that we have seen at BCW, and so ECFA has scored in the 100th percentile in the nonprofit products and services sector for more than one year. So 100th percentile is really the best of the best, so truly ECFA is a standout culturally, and when we look at all the folks that we work with and organizations, you guys are very special in that way to get such high scores and so when I see that, it’s like, okay, what are they doing? They are doing something right, and that’s what we want to learn, you know, how have you guys accomplished this and had such great success? So that’s what we want to chat about and learn from you, Michael, on helping our listeners glean some insights that have been working so well for you. I think one thing that we notice in the data is this idea of going from mission clarity to momentum. So we know what when people feel a sense that their work is tied to a greater mission, it gives greater meaning and value to the daily idiosyncrasies, you know, the tasks that they’re doing. There is a sense that their work goes beyond just the tasks. So I’d love to get your insights, you know, how do you translate the worthiness of your mission - which is an incredible mission, financial accountability, stewardship - is huge. How do you translate that internally so every team member understands why that work matters?
Michael: Yeah, well, what a great question. You’re far too kind in your comments there. We are very committed though to having a flourishing culture. BCW has been a great partner in that, and of course, glory to God. I have to give credit too – we just have an incredible team here at ECFA that shares in the commitment to these values and so I know that’s something that you all talk about all the time. It’s a “we,” right, like we’re all in this together, and we’re certainly on a journey, and we could talk about that too. Every year that we engage with BCW, we’re always looking at, what are the ways we can improve? Like, how can we continue to grow? So anyway, maybe it’s the lawyer in me, but I feel like I just had to put that disclaimer out there of like, we’re still on a journey, as great as the culture is here and what God has blessed us with. But to your question about - where you were saying kind of communication around the mission and why that’s such a key part in motivating the team, you know I think for us one of those things would be to say, at the end of the circumstances day, and ECFA does have a very special mission, but as we look at it, it’s what is the ultimate “why” behind what we do? You know you mentioned on some very key points of whether it’s financial integrity or trust or governance, like all of those things are very important, but I think what really rallies and motivates the team here is we look deeper than that and we say, what is the ultimate why, and it is not just accountability for accountability’s sake, but it is accountability that accelerates the gospel. And so, if all of our lives have been changed as a result of the gospel, the good news of Jesus, the transforming work that’s happening in our lives, like don’t we want other people to experience and to see that? And so, I think for us, like the more we focus on the gospel nature of ECFA, just the more motivated, the more inspired, the more committed I am, and I know the rest of our team is too.
Robert: Yeah, so it’s kind of connecting a sense that your mission ties to the greater kingdom impact, the greater impact of the body of Christ, and serving the organizations that you serve. Is that kind of what you’re saying is, hey, the work we’re doing is allowing the gospel to advance, and as that happens, lives are changed, more people are touched, more people are reached for eternity.
Michael: That’s exactly right. So yeah, whether you’re one of the CPAs on our team and you’re reviewing a set of financial statements, or you’re working with a member on a governance issue, or maybe you’re a creative individual on our communications team and you’re reviewing an email or a resource or something that’s going to go out, just making that connection between the daily work that we’re doing, who is it impacting, who is it reaching? There are 2,700 accredited members who are part of ECFA and well beyond who it’s their mission to be on the frontlines, you know, of sharing the gospel around the world, so I think that the more that we can keep that perspective in mind, it just leads to really that buy-in and that passion and the commitment to the mission.
Robert: I totally agree. Are there any sort of just very, very practical things? So you’re framing how you would tie your mission into that deeper kingdom impact. Talk to me a little bit about just very practical – you know, do you have meetings where you discuss this? Do you have a cadence where you talk about your mission frequently? Help us understand how you’ve done that so well, where that mission is translating and creating that momentum, just very tactical, maybe simple ideas that might help some of our listeners.
Michael: Sure. I love the nuts and bolts, right, like how do we apply these things? So, I do think of different rhythms that have been – communication and rhythms that have been built into our culture and that is part of what we continue to even tweak over time, you know, as we find that there are opportunities to improve those, but you know, I think part of it would start with each year, even as we go into the process of setting our annual strategic goals as a team, mission is always right at the top, right. We’re thinking about, are all of the activities, all the strategies, all the things that we’re doing, how do they tie in? How do they further the mission? And allowing the team the opportunity to collaborate around even the strategic goals that are ultimately approved by the ECFA board, right, every year. But that process of collaborating around the goals, I think that’s a great reminder, and then also our annual goals that are approved by the board, I like to say they’re not something that just kind of either sits on a desk somewhere and collects dust or hang on a wall somewhere and no one looks at theme, but on a regular basis, you know, we’re coming back to, okay, what is it that’s, you know, on our goals document? How are we doing? We’re constantly referring back to that. In addition to that, something that we have really enjoyed doing too, is on a monthly basis we have about two-thirds of our team who are here in the headquarters, another third that work remotely for us all across the country, but we get on, once a month, we’ll have like a virtual all-staff huddle where we do some communication around these things as well. And then some of the most special times for our team is on a quarterly basis we have everybody all get together in person. It’s really difficult to replace the value of having everybody together. In our case, it’s once a quarter, to do things that are fun. We certainly have a lot of fun here, but team building, reminders around the mission, the strategic goals, and so we kind of have those annual, monthly, quarterly rhythms here.
Robert: Beautiful. Collaboration. Consistency. Just to remind our viewers, the 100th percentile score for the sector. So that collaboration almost sounds like folks are brought into this process even as you’re developing strategic initiatives that are the highest level, word of proof things, and then as you’re kind of bringing them in and you have that cadence of those rhythms, they feel a sense of ownership and connected to that mission even more. It sounds like that’s what you’re saying, that buy-in is ever stronger as you’re collaborating from the very, very beginning in those highest initiatives.
Michael: Yeah. That’s exactly right.
Robert: That’s powerful.
Michael: Yeah, and so, yeah, a key point too on the timing of things, like just getting stuff on the calendar, right, if it’s a priority it’s got to be on the calendar, and so yeah, not overlooking the importance of those things, of making sure that it’s built into, because otherwise, you know, if we just kind of allow ourselves to go and ministry takes its course, and we go throughout the year, things that are not on the calendar are not going to be prioritized.
Robert: So simple, right, put it on the calendar. Write it down. There are studies behind that. When you write something down, when you put something that is a little more tangible, as simple as putting it on the calendar, the likelihood of those things advancing just is – is big. It just goes up exponentially. Very, very cool. I love that.
Michael: I’ll say one other – one other thing too I just thought of as well that’s probably an important point under that, is actually team culture is one of our strategic goals at ECFA. Yeah. And so we see that as the importance of a flourishing team culture. It’s foundational to all of the other goals that we achieve here at ECFA. So if we were to show you, hey, this is ECFA’s annual strategic goals, these are the things that we’re focused on, working on, in the next year, in the next coming three years, team culture is actually our first pillar, and so just continuing to keep that in front of us as well, that’s another way we’ve kind of built it into the culture and our rhythms here.
Robert: Yeah. So, I like that idea that great cultures don’t run on autopilot. It sounds like you’ve got that pillar you mentioned of culture, and then within that culture, each year, is it based on the results of the survey where you kind of – you survey each year and then you’re sort of taking the results and then building that into an annual strategic initiative for the year?
Michael: That’s exactly right. Right. So every year when we get – and we’re so thankful, you know, that our staff are participating in the BCW assessment each year and then, yeah, I mean, we really take that seriously. Whenever we get the report that comes back, I even send a copy of that as well for our board chair to have insights into those things, offer that up to the whole board to see, but certainly our senior leadership team and then as an all-staff, we’re kind of going through, what are the highlights? When we sit down, we always value too that opportunity with a consultant that will come from BCW and just kind of walk us through, you know, what are the things even that we’re not seeing in it? And then yeah, we’ll take those key takeaways and build them into the plan for the next year.
Robert: Okay. So, I chat with a lot of leaders who are exploring these things. Should we survey? Should we not? Whether it’s through BCW, wherever, should we focus on culture at this level? And you guys are doing that and it shows in the outcomes of – not just your score – the scores are reflective of what’s really happening, which is effectiveness, engagement, higher levels of productivity, higher kingdom impact, multiplying your capacity as an organization, and the ripple effects of that. Can – help - help leaders who are maybe not as committed to culture as clearly your group is and you are, the background behind the why. You know, we know why, Best Christian Workplaces, we understand the financial implications, the direct correlation to mission impact. Can you speak to how you got here where you are so committed and it is a pillar that you focus on every single year? Oftentimes we see organizations, they may come in and survey, and maybe they get a badge, maybe they’re a certified Best Christian Workplaces, and they’re satisfied with that as a one-time thing. But you have committed to this journey of not allowing your culture to stay on autopilot because it’s dynamic. Cultures are not static. There are variables that can – but why – how did you guys get here where, where – because internally the – you know, our perspective and impression of you and your team is that you take it – you guys take it to another level. Just so our audience understands, we work with a lot of Christian-led organizations and ECFA, they have a commitment to culture that is – it really is unparalleled in many respects. The commitment is there. It’s clear, and the results speak to that. How did you guys get there where you understand the value of culture and are so committed to it?
Narrator: Leading well starts with listening well. At Best Christian Workplaces, our employee engagement survey helps you collect honest, anonymous feedback from your staff so you can lead with clarity. When you understand what drives team engagement, you retain top talent, increase productivity, reduce turnover, and uncover cost savings. We equip Christian leaders with research-driven insight to strengthen culture and lead with purpose, because when your people flourish, your mission impact multiplies. Visit workplaces.org to learn more today.
Michael: Yeah. There’s so much in what you just said that I’d love to reflect on. One of the pieces being, why do we do it every year? And you’re exactly right that - I mean, I don’t know how we couldn’t do it every year, you know what I mean? Because just the nature of seasons of ministry, team members, you know, that are new or changing, like there are always different dynamics and so, I would say, we just get new insights every year that we’re able to incorporate and so, I do encourage those who maybe you’ve done it once, or it’s been a few years, like it’s been nothing but beneficial for us, you know, in order to engage every year, but I think coming back to your bigger question, which is, just why even in the first place, right? I think of a couple things. First, it comes from a strong conviction that – I mean, we talk about stewardship a lot at ECFA, and I think people’s minds almost automatically go to finances, and certainly there are financial implications. We could talk about the financial implications of a good culture. But even more than that, just based on the firm belief that our people are our greatest stewardship, and so I think it comes from that conviction and also from a place of I think we have seen, unfortunately, in too many churches and ministries, what can happen when maybe we’re so externally focused about other people we’re serving, that we’re trying to reach with the gospel, and I’m not taking anything away from that. That’s so, so important, but I think if we do not care well for what’s in front of us, or our own team as the first priority, or we’re kind of running through a string of people who are burnt out, or they’re dropping out of ministry, or tragically even in some cases, you know, they’re walking away from faith as a result of their experience at a ministry, I mean, how tragic is that, and so, I think it even comes down to, it’s even our own gospel witness that’s at stake. Like, if we don’t care well for the people that God’s entrusted, who are closes to us, like what message is that sending the world? So, I think for us, it just comes from core convictions that relate to all of those areas.
Robert: You couldn’t have said it any better. This is Scripture, that charity starts at home. I think sometimes that Scripture can be misunderstood a little bit, but I see it as a sense of priority, you know, that you take care of your people first, not that you’re not also taking care of people beyond that circle, because that’s a mandate. That’s what we’re doing. That’s what ministry’s all about. But if you jump over those who are closest in your circle, your own family, and you’re charitable outside of those doors, but not first internally, then you’re missing the whole thing, right, and then it implodes. I’ve heard it said, you know, people come out of cultures like that, that are – that they’ve been burned. You know, there’s a sense that we’re using people to accomplish a mission, rather than having vision and mission to serve first internally and then that goes externally so we can accomplish our mission. So it’s – yeah – it’s a mandate. It’s a spiritual stewardship. This podcast is called, Called to Flourish. That idea of calling comes with a sense of duty and that duty begins with your people internally. So, I love that. I love the gospel centeredness of that, the purity of that. It’s, I think, that’s it. We can talk about kingdom impact externally and the importance of that, but just the witness that, hey, you cared more about the people on the outside that you overlooked the needs of the people inside your ministry, I couldn’t have said it more powerfully that that, Michael. I’d love to get some of your thoughts kind of on, you know, how you do take care of your people. We see in your scores and your survey that, you know, you do care for your people well. They’re the ones carrying the mission. So could you talk to us a little bit. I mean, it’s very practical, and I think people would be interested in this because of your financial background and the work you guys do, but how – what’s your approach to, I guess, rewarding compensation, compensation, benefits, just kind of like, you know, this is a small slice of what it means to take care of your people, right, but can you give us some insights on what has worked well or maybe your approach to that part of that stewardship?
Michael: Yeah. I think of a couple things. And there’s – I’m sure there’s more, because one thing sort of leads to another, but I do think about the importance of even having a compensation philosophy statement, or as an organization, how is it that we think about compensation, and I know what a lot of times that will be – organizations will just sort of have, well, like this is kind of our hunch, or maybe it’s not documented. You know what I mean? It’s, this is kind of how we go about it. But I think going through the process too of just thinking, even Biblically and those sorts of things around, like how do we think about compensation, articulating that in a compensation philosophy, that’s a really critical piece. You know, part of that for us is even saying, you know, for our team certainly we want all of it to come from a place of caring well for them, but also even defining as we look, just as a practical matter, you want to bring in outside benchmarking data, right, and find as an organization where you want to position yourself there. What sort of ranges do you define as competitive? All of those things are kind of part of a compensation philosophy statement. I think it’s been a really helpful thing for us even as we’ve been able to sit down with our team and provide context at times as we’re going through the process of an annual review or sitting down with team members on that sort of basis and sharing salary updates and those things, to be able to articulate, you know, this is our philosophy, our care for our employees, kind of listing out all of the – in addition to salary, the other benefits, some financial, some nonfinancial, that are all part of how we’re valuing our team, but then also pointing to, hey, it’s also grounded in data, right, and some of the outside benchmarking that we have - we’ve actually utilized Best Christian Workplaces for in a lot of cases for the different positions. To be able to also give that, I think, it’s extra confidence to the team to know, oh, this isn’t just based on, you know, a whim or just how somebody feels, but we are looking at outside data to be sure like we’re compensating the team fair and reasonable. We want ECFA to be fair to each of our team members. I think those are some real practical things, and then somewhat practical, somewhat philosophical, I think also the importance of, it really does, at least I can say in my experience, that our culture of care, compensation for our team, for me it also comes back to, what is the tone that’s set by the board of an organization, and this goes beyond compensation, but just how do we care for our team in general, because I have been the beneficiary of serving under the ECFA Board. They have just given great attention and care to our family, even through the process of me initially interviewing for this role. I’ve been on staff with ECFA, you know, for almost a decade before stepping into the role of President. I can tell you a funny story about going through the final interview process in a national search and our family had just had a baby not too long, kind of around the same time as that process, and we kind of came to the time of a final interview, and it was like, okay, if you’re needing us to travel or go, they included my wife, Brittany, as part of the interview, and it’s like, well, she also needs to be around the baby at the same time, and they said, hey, bring your baby, you know, to the interview, and I thought, this has got to be the most strange interview, but what it did was it sent a very strong message to me, which was, hey, we recognize you’re coming into service at the ministry from family responsibilities in a context. Your family is also a ministry, your first ministry too, and so the importance of that and I think I’ve been able to take that and say, okay, as the President and CEO of this organization, based on the way that the board has cared and given such good attention and care for us as a family, like that’s something we have permission to do for all of our staff. Like, I don’t have to feel any reservations about that or questions about that. It’s just the tone that is set even at that board level, at the very top, if you will, and I think that that does trickle down throughout the rest of the organization.
Robert: Yeah. It’s deeply rooted in culture, all the way to the top, a sense of family, a sense of – I don’t think I’ve ever heard of a baby being invited to an interview, so you know, that’s amazing.
Michael: And I don’t know if that’s a best practice or not. I’m just telling you. That’s how it went down.
Robert: It’s the hard find.
Michael: They really wanted to include, yeah, Brittany in that process too.
Robert: Absolutely.
Michael: That is where we found ourselves, you know.
Robert: I think that’s a – that is a great story, and yeah, like I said, right to the root of, do we value this? Do we prioritize this? And I love that. Any other thoughts around, around maybe other ways that you – that you guys, you know, seek to make sure that people feel genuinely valued at ECFA?
Michael: Yeah. Are you still kind of thinking from a – like from a financial standpoint or some of the nonfinancial things?
Robert: Well, just overall, just kind of, you know, overall work/life balance kind of thing, kind of speaking into any other just tips that you might have for leaders?
Michael: Yeah. Well one of our other team values is healthy, so we talk about the importance of – well, one of our – we have 3 H’s. We have humble, hardworking, and healthy. And so, that’s kind of how we talk about team culture here and really try to live that out, so to, in some ways bring balance on that hardworking piece because there is a lot of hard work that – we say we’re kind of – we’re a small team on a big mission as we’re serving the different organizations that are part of ECFA, but we also really believe in and promote the importance of doing all of that work at a healthy pace and rhythm as well, and so you know, this was just kind of, kind of, for fun, but a new benefit that we have even offered our team just this year was on their birthday, right, being able to take a day off and like celebrate, enjoy your birthday as a new benefit. In addition to that, giving our team soul care opportunities as well throughout the year where you can take time and just recharge, be with the Lord, and those are all things that we can do that are even not necessarily – they don’t have to be built into the budget or the finances, but teams can think creatively about what are other ways that we can care for our team.
Robert: I love it. Great. Great ideas. Birthday. Okay.
Michael: Birthday benefit. I can’t take credit for that one. That was a . . .
Robert: I love that. I love that. Birthday benefit. Okay. Well, I’ll tell you what, Michael. We’re kind of running out of time, but your insights have been – I love it – deeply, deeply rooted in you know, Biblical conviction, but also very practical in so many ways. That’s what I love about this conversation. I’m praying and believing that many, many leaders are being tugged at in this sense and understand, hey, maybe it’s time to really refocus on our people, our culture, and how can we improve and how can listen and understand what their needs are? I’d love to end this with some – at least one rapid-fire question. We like to do this on the podcast, just a random question just to learn a little bit more about you and your approach to things, okay? Does that sound good?
Michael: Sounds great. Let’s do it.
Robert: Okay. Alright. Here’s one. So, which option do you prefer? Do you lean into your top strength - I thought about this a lot actually. Do you lean into your top strength or work on your weakest one?
Michael: Oof. That’s tough for rapid fire. Okay, but I will say, big believer in leaning on strengths. We are like a strengths-finder culture here too.
Robert: Strengths finder.
Michael: My only caveat though is that sometimes our greatest strengths also come with a shadow side too, right, so work on your top strengths, but be mindful of the shadows.
Robert: Aah. Yes. The double-edged sword. Sometimes your greatest strength can actually have another side to it, right? I love that. Okay. We’ll do one more. Protect – I think I might know the answer to this one – protect culture quietly behind the scenes or shape it visibly in the moment?
Michael: Can I say both?
Robert: You can.
Michael: Okay. I think – I think both are critical. Because it is in, you know, some of the – what seems like big or significant moments, like we have to step into those as leaders, but there’s so much work that also goes in quietly, behind the scenes, coming back to something we talked about earlier, even just putting things on a calendar. So, I don’t know, I have to have it both ways.
Robert: Fair enough. And you heard it, everybody. Listen, Michael, I want to thank you guys, you for being on the podcast, of course, and ECFA for all of your incredible work, the work you do in the kingdom, the way that you are, you know, just empowering and equipping so many organizations with such an important element of their ministry, which is financial stewardship, accountability. We are grateful, deeply grateful for your work in the kingdom of God and your partnership with BCW, so I just want to thank you guys so much in every possible way and thank you for focusing so much on culture and setting the highest bar, the highest example, in your sector at the 100th percentile. We are deeply grateful for you and your work.
Michael: Thank you. Well, it’s a joy to partner with you and Best Christian Workplaces.
Robert: Amen. Well, so listen, if you feel that this content and this episode could be a blessing to a friend, a colleague, you know a mentor, anybody, just click share, you know send it off to somebody you think would benefit from this, and also subscribe, on YouTube, subscribe on your favorite podcast channel that you prefer, whether it’s Apple or Google, and get this on your phone and listen to these episodes because we will continue to seek to equip and inspire you so that you can grow as a leader and grow your culture as well. God bless you. We’ll see you next time.