Flourishing Culture Leadership Podcast
“Thriving Leaders Start Within: How Self-Leadership Shapes Organizations“
June 16, 2025
Tami Heim
Intro: What if the most important leadership strategy in your ministry isn't a new framework or funding model but a deeper connection with God? In this powerful episode, Tami Heim, of the Christian Leadership Alliance, shares how cultivating spiritual and self-leadership is reshaping the future of Christian-led organizations and why thriving leaders start by leading themselves.
Welcome: Welcome to the Flourishing Culture Leadership Podcast, your home for open, honest, and insightful conversations to help develop your leadership, your team, and build a flourishing workplace culture.
Al Lopus: Hi, I’m Al Lopus, the co-founder of the Best Christian Workplaces and author of Road to Flourishing, the go-to research-driven, Christ-centered guide to building a flourishing workplace culture. My passion is to equip Christian leaders like you to create engaged, flourishing workplaces, where people thrive and organizations make a significant Kingdom impact.
As this week comes to a close, and as I mark three years since transitioning the leadership of the Best Christian Workplaces to Jay Bransford, I find myself reflecting with deep gratitude and thanksgiving. Under Jay's leadership, the BCW team has continued to expand and deepen the impact of our mission in extraordinary ways.
And with that same spirit of growth and continuity, this episode marks a special moment. Tami Heim is my next-to-last guest of my time as host of the Flourishing Culture Leadership Podcast, and I’ll conclude this chapter in two weeks by stepping into the guest seat myself for one final conversation that reflects on the journey that we've taken together. And after that, I'll be passing the mic and trusting this episode to the next generation of leaders at BCW, leaders who will continue to bring you practical insight and spiritual encouragement rooted in our shared vision.
So let me simply say it's been one of my greatest joys and honors of my life to host this podcast for these 449 episodes. Thank you for walking alongside me as we've pursued the bold goal of seeing Christian-led workplaces lead the way as the best, most effective places to work in the world. And thanks for listening, for all you do to cultivate flourishing workplace cultures wherever God has placed you
Well, today I’m delighted to welcome Tami Heim to the podcast. Tami’s the president of the Christian Leadership Alliance.
Throughout our conversation, you'll hear Tami share about a deeper understanding of spiritual leadership, proven strategies for team and culture development, and encouragement to prioritize leader well-being in your mission and ministry.
I think you're going to love this interview with Tami. But before we dive in, this podcast is proudly sponsored by the Best Christian Workplaces’ Employee Engagement Survey, the most-trusted employee-engagement tool for faith-based organizations. With thousands of leaders already using our platform, each new participant strengthens the growing network committed to flourishing workplace cultures. What makes us unique? Well, we're the only research-based, biblically grounded employee-engagement survey designed specifically for Christian-led organizations, proving insight and transformation through a Kingdom lens. And as today's guest, Tami Heim, reminds us, without the health of the leader, the organization suffers. That's why care, feedback, and alignment are more essential now than ever. Don't wait. Now is the ideal time to gather actionable feedback from your team and begin building a healthier Christ-centered workplace. Visit workplaces.org to learn more and to start your journey today.
Well, hello to our new listeners. Thanks for joining us as we honor your investment of time by creating valuable episodes like this.
Now let me tell you just a little bit more about Tami Heim. Tami’s the president and CEO of the Christian Leadership Alliance. The Christian Leadership Alliance convenes and trains Christian nonprofits and their employees across all levels of experience. They provide a Christ-centered collaborative community where members can share strategic advice, solve challenges, and develop new approaches. Tami has been the president and CEO since 2012. Her career includes executive-leadership experience in the technology, marketing, publishing, and retail industries. She served as a partner at The A Group-Brand Development, executive vice president, and chief publishing officer for Thomas Nelson Publishers, and she was president of Borders, Inc. After graduating from Purdue, she entered the management-training program of Federated Department Stores and served in various leadership roles across the department-store chains. Tami's certified in for-profit board governance through the Kellogg School of Management at Northwestern University and has experience serving a number of nonprofit boards, including the Best Christian Workplaces.
So, here’s my conversation with Tami Heim.
Tami, it’s wonderful to have you back on the podcast. I always gain so much from our conversations, and I know our listeners do, too. And you'd be interested to know you first joined me back in August of 2016, almost nine years ago, on this podcast, and so I want to thank you for the wisdom you've shared with our audience and your ongoing impact on Christian leaders. So, I'm really looking forward to our conversation today.
Tami Heim: Well, Al, I always look forward to great conversations with you, and it's been a blessing to be on the journey with this podcast and you. And just thank you for your faithfulness to do the good work to bring out the best in those that you interview.
Al: You’re certainly welcome, and it’s been a pleasure. And I’m looking forward to just a couple of the topics we have today to review, and that is, I want to talk a little bit about Inspirational Leadership, which is one of our eight factors of our research-based FLOURISH Model, developed by Best Christian Workplaces. And while all of the factors contribute to flourishing, Inspirational Leadership is the highest weighting of our eight factors on an engaged workforce. Of course, your work at the Christian Leadership Alliance is all about equipping leaders for excellence in their work, and that includes self-leadership. And I know that's been a growing topic of interest. And not only is it self-leadership, but also spiritual leadership. So, talk about some of the initiatives that CLA has focused on in the past couple years to deepen leaders in their own self-leadership and spiritual leadership.
Tami: Absolutely, Al. But before I even get into some of those practical things that we're doing, I think it's important that we don't miss this moment in time and this movement towards it. And I think of ECFA and Best Christian and CLA, we all kind of had similar beginnings, and we came out of the idea that said, you know, “We need to care about the financial accountability, we need to care about the quality of our people, and we need a place to train and equip them.” So we've been on kind of this journey together. And I don't think that there's any mistake that the reports and things that you did, you eventually identified those eight factors, and then you zeroed in on the fact that it was Inspirational Leadership. And meanwhile, ECFA, which you think is black and white standards, and here we are, now, all of a sudden they recognize leader care, and they have an initiative. And for us, that started for us back in 2019. We experienced a lot of things through COVID and coming out of it, and we launched our personal-leadership track in 2021 after COVID. And so I feel like God is really sending us a message across the board, and He's aligning us on the importance of the heart of the leader. And again, you're seeing it from the research that you do and the clients that you work with. ECFA is seeing that. And for us, we witnessed the state of thriving leaders in the midst of a pandemic, both in this country and globally. And after that, we were able to do research with Azusa Pacific University. And we asked the question, what must a Christian leader do in order to thrive? And we had all these graduate students work on it. And then, they gave us the key things that were essential. And so much of it went back to the spiritual-leadership piece of this, like the connection.
So, I think our three organizations have been very much about, what's the competency? What's the metrics? What's the standard? And all of a sudden, now we understand that, again, it goes back to, what's the heart of the leader and the condition? Because you can be extremely competent running a non-profit organization, but there's something truly transformational when you're leading it from the center of God's will. And the only way you can get there is strengthening disciplines and practices that connect you with God. And then, out of that, you become an inspiring leader, and inspiring leaders need the care and oversight of a board to make sure that they're making space to do that. So, I'm always amazed at God's timing.
Now for us, in response to the research, we've developed five courses that travel over 50 weeks in their entirety. There's the Thriving Leader Journey series. And in it, we're really focusing on restoring those best practices. What does it mean to lead self? And then, how does leading self impact leading others and organizations? So, our 50-week program takes people on a journey, and then, after it's concluded, then we want to have some accountability and connect leaders with a wise mentor that can just say, “You've written these reflections, you've gone through this course, now are you really putting it to work?” And encouraging them to do that, because I mean, it's habits; it's the practice of things over and over again.
And then, you mentioned the personal-leadership track. It's amazing. We launched that in 2001 without a lot of research, just trying it out. And now based on the research, we've been able to curate that a little bit differently, trying to meet those deep-felt needs. But even in 2025, largest track attended was personal leadership. So we're understanding that we need to care for the heart of the leader for all the reasons I've already shared, and we just have to return them to the heart God. And so I'm grateful we had Seeking the Kingdom First and God as our theme in this past year. So that's what we've been doing, and we’ll just continue on that. Whether it’s by ways of our podcast or blogs and everything, we want to make sure that we have that element of care and connection to God in everything that we’re doing.
Al: And our research shows, Tami, as I think about, again, spiritual leadership is the first thing that comes to mind when we talk about inspirational leadership. And Christian workers, those that work in Christian organizations, they want to see that their leaders have been transformed by Christ in their own hearts and, then, through them to their leadership and the way people experience their leadership. We ask questions like, leaders exhibit the fruit of the Holy Spirit, or leaders demonstrate compassion or humility or put Christ first in decision making, which is really servant leadership. So that's the first thing people really are looking for, as our research shows, when we do the factor analysis, the statistical analysis, and you're right on track with that. So yeah, personal leadership and the habits and disciplines that go into that, and, really, it's the health of the leader. Without the health of the leader, the organization suffers, for sure.
Tami: What you described, Al, I mean, I have to sit here and smile because everything that you were saying, that's what they want, that is really the example of Jesus Christ. And so when we're putting on the mind of Christ, that’s where it all begins, you know, just to be faithful to continue on the journey to follow Him and what He said and what He did.
Al: Yeah. And we can’t do it on our own, can we?
Tami: No.
Al: No. Yeah.
Well, we were just talking about the CLA Outcomes Conference, and what a great conference it was this year. And I know that there are many organizations that don't send just a single leader, but they bring a whole team to the conference. And I remember sitting around a table with a couple of teams— I'll mention Joni and Friends and 4KIDS, a couple our ministry partners—and their entire leadership team was there. So, talk about the importance of investing in leadership development as a team and how it builds relationships with community among the leaders that come to the Conference.
Tami: Well, I feel like as long as I've been at Christian Leadership Alliance, we have always promoted, “Bring your team. Bring your team,” because if someone just sends someone to a conference, and maybe they go with one or two people, they could be really inspired for a moment. But if they haven't processed it, and they don't bring it back, there's really no change. You can just remember, “Hey, that was a great conference,” but you haven't really applied the things that you need. So coming together in teams really allows a team to get away from the normal environment of their everyday ministry life to experience something together, and then process together what they heard, why it mattered, and what needs to change because of it, and then take that to another level and saying, “All right, well, what does that mean in our context? And how can we be agents of creating that change when we get back?” So there's something powerful.
And for us, we saw the tipping point. So we had 84 teams attending the Conference this year, and the positive feedback just kind of echoed on. And probably my most favorite moment there, Al, was—okay, it's true confession time. So I'm up in my room. It's late at night. And I remember that I left something in the office: a bag that I needed to fill up to bring down in the morning. And I was kind of already in my jammies, and I was with Courtney, Dr. Veasey, who was doing photography for us. And I said, “Will you come down there with me,” because I just felt like I didn't want to go down there by myself. And I'm like, “And I don't want anybody to see us because, you know, we're ready for bed.”
And so I came down, and as we got off the elevators, I saw a group of young leaders all sitting around in one of the exhibits. And they were laughing. They were having a great time. And I walked, and I said, “I have to go see what it is.” And Courtney's like, “You're in your pajamas. You have to see what's going on.” Now, thankfully my sweatshirt said, Fruit Happens Here, and on the back it says, Because Jesus Is Here. So it was okay.
So I go up, and there's these young leaders, and they were all decked out in their ministry logo wear. We're like, “Hey, what's going on? What's happening?” And they're like, “Oh, we're just hanging out. We're processing it. This has been great.” And so Courtney says, “May I take a video, and can I ask you a question?” And they’re like, “Yeah, sure.” They're young—I mean young—leaders. And the first person says, she says, “So what has meant the most to you?” And the first person says, “Oh, worship. Never have I experienced over a thousand people falling to their knees in worship.” The second one said, “Oh, word of the day. Like, that stuck with me,” because many of the words of the day were about seeking God with our whole heart, and they're like, “I just have been clinging to that every day.” The next person says, “Oh, that keynote speaker,” and this was on Wednesday, and Dr. Kim spoke. “I can't keep—I'm just processing that over and over again.” The next person said, “These courses are rocking it. Oh my gosh, I'm learning so much. There's all these things that I didn't know, and now I'm leaning it. I'm just soaking it all in.” And then the last person said, “I had no idea that there were so many people who care about doing the kinds of things I can do. And now I have a community, and I have people that I can call.”
And in that moment—I feel like it was divine that I had forgotten my bag—but that was it. That was the whole capture. And here was this team, God meeting the individuals in the team exactly where they needed to be met, but collectively they had a transformational experience, which is why I'm such a huge advocate for people sending teams to training experiences so that they can come back and really have an impact. It's a much higher return on the investment.
Al: Yeah. That's really thoughtful, Tami, and a great example. But yeah, as you say, you send one person, and they have an experience. But to really make an impact on your organization, to have a group of people experience the same thing. And yes, all of the things you just said, I experienced myself. And I did—there were tears in my eyes during the worship. Just really spoke to me as well. Yeah, no, fantastic.
Well, let's talk about CLA for a minute because over the years I've noticed that CLA has been a great incubator for ideas and even new ministries. And even early on with Best Christian Workplaces, you know, I'd come and I'd do workshops. And the idea of having a healthy culture really kind of grew and expanded as a result of people that would come to the workshops and learn about employee engagement and so on. But I know that there are other organizations—in fact, let me back up and say, actually, CLA was instrumental in the creation of the Best Christian Workplaces. And you've heard this story, I know, where it was your predecessor, John Pearson, who received a call from Christianity Today, saying, “Hey, we'd like to do a story of who the best Christian places to work are. Do you know anybody that might be able to actually help us create a credible list?” And that was in the spring of 2002. And then, the next April, at the CLA Conference—then it was the Christian Management Conference—in Colorado Springs was the launch of the Best Christian Workplaces and the list of 40 of the best places, Christian places, to work. So I know BCW was launched as a result of the cooperation with CLA.
So, what are organizations that you've seen that have grown out of the synergy of people gathering at CLA? Are there other teams or innovation or incubators, people that have come out of it with new ideas and connections that even maybe started a new organization?
Tami: Well, we, of course, we're hoping that always happens. I mean, my greatest joy is when I see two ministry leaders from different in an intense conversation. And when I walk by it, I’m always saying, “Lord, You are the God of small beginnings. And I pray that You will make it so in that conversation and continue to do great things.” I mean, I find myself praying that as I'm going throughout, as I’m just seeing people intensely trying to figure things out together.
I would say similar to the Best Christian Workplace is ECFA because when it first started, many of the same people that were organizing what's today Christian Leadership Alliance said, “All right, now we have training. Now we need standards.” And out of that came ECFA. And then, it was in 2016, ECFA had a heart for, “Well, what does accountability look globally?” So within the context of our Conference, we hosted their first international gathering, where they began to explore the idea. And later, then, Gary Hogue, Dr. Hogue, was anointed to take the lead on this, and it evolved into Global Trust Partners. And now they’re doing incredible work all around the world. And it's come back to us at Christian Leadership Alliance because now Global Trust Partners are indeed a great partner with Christian Leadership Alliance as we are beginning to do training and ministry and support globally.
So there you see how multiplication happens and it comes full circle. And that's what we live for. That's what we live to see.
And then, there's other people that will tell the stories of, I was at the Conference, and I was in the lobby, and I sat down next to somebody that I kind of knew, and we had a conversation. And out of that, you see things like he gets his campaign launching. Again, here’s an idea, let's explore it, let's get together, and then, let's make it work.
And obviously, Al, that happens constantly as people are engaging with a lot of people that come that are providing services, because they're learning the services that are available, and then, they're saying, “Well, now I have a unique problem to solve. Can you help create that solution?” So I think it goes on, and probably not until we get on the other side of eternity and we get to look back will we even fully understand. I know that there’s been over a million leaders that have come through the CLA door and been influenced.
And I mean, I'm curious. So since the beginning for Best Christian Workplaces, how many ministries have you touched in this time, like, just roughly? We won't hold you to strict accountability on this, but—
Al: Probably 2,000 Christian ministries, Christian-led organizations have engaged with Best Christian Workplaces in one way or another. But, well, 2,000 have completed our comprehensive Employee Engagement Survey, and multiply that times the, you know—as Doug Mazza, Joni and Friends have, you know, it's been 20 years, they've worked with us every year for 20 years, completing the Employee Engagement Survey. So multiply those numbers.
Tami: But think about that multiplication, the compounding impact of that. And if the numbers are right, there's 1.8 million nonprofits and 87,000 of them are faith based, and you've done 2,000, you are basically, I mean, over 10%. And what's the number 10% of any group that's truly passionate about what they believe in and the standards they want to have, they can create the movement that could transform the way everybody thinks. So it's no small number; that's significant. And again, I don't think you and I are going to enjoy the depth and the width of the ripple until we get to the other side.
Al: I think you’re right. And yeah, not even as you say, we're not even at 10% of the market. And as I look at the data, and we have data with growing numbers—we’re working with 500 unique organizations now every year, and the number of employees that are in those 500 organizations—and as the number of employees increase and our data increases, actually what that's showing with that increasing number is that Christian workplaces have improved the health of their cultures over that 20-year period, which is just an amazing thing to me. You know, we're tracking it, and that gets to the core passion in my heart, you know, that Christian workplaces should set the standard as the best, most effective places to work in the world. And to see it actually happening, and it started with CLA, basically.
Tami: And we share that passion, you know that, for what you're doing, because we feel like as we're doing a lot of the training and equipping, you become a critical measurement, as does ECFA, on the effectiveness of that training and keeping the standard very high. So, I mean, you are an essential partner in our mission to just have that kind of measurement, so we're grateful.
Al: We feel the same way. Yeah, absolutely. We feel the same way about CLA. Absolutely.
Well, talking about creating great workplaces with training and development is a key part of that, early in your career, you benefited from the emphasis on corporate training in the retail industry. And sometimes in Christian nonprofits, it's harder to convince leaders that they actually need to invest in training and leadership development for staff who are early in their careers, maybe they have the attitude they'll learn it over time. But let's talk about the investment in training. What are some of the best practices you see in Christian organizations that are investing in training and developing leaders?
Tami: I would have to say that it's those that are extremely intentional about how they make that investment. And because some organizations can say, “Well, I've got this in the budget. Oh, and you want to go to this conference. Oh, you want to take this course,” and you do that, and then an employee says, “Well, I'm interested in that; I'm doing that,” sometimes, I mean, that can generate a return, but when there is an intentionality about the leadership construct that an organization takes on and says, “These are the things that we want to make sure you know. These are experiences we want you to have,” then the organization can also be a strong influence. And, like, “If you’re going to the CLA conference, the Outcomes Conference, these are some courses that we expect you to attend. And then you can attend other things that you want to. And we want you to process it.”
The other thing about intentionality is, is when we learn something, the best way to solidify that learning is to go back and teach it. So if a ministry sends someone to an experience and they don't come back and allow them the space to teach others what they've learned, they'll probably lose it. And by teaching it, it will enroll others in the idea and, again, generate some kind of a transformation. That follow up is critical and so is that processing. You know, I mentioned before, we always ask the question, what did I hear? Why did it matter? What changes because of it? That's a question that they can even make, they can talk about when they come back to the organization. But being very intentional and knowing what you want to do, and then having that sense of accountability that we come back and say, “Tell us what you learned. Was that a great event?”
I know my son-in-law one time went to a conference, and he was all jazzed up about it. And he went, it was great, and it was more of an elaborate production. And he came back; he's like, “Oh, that was the best conference ever.” And I said, “Great. Now tell me what you learned that's going to change the way you lead in your church.” And he was, like… I said, “Just tell me one speaker and what they said that impacted you,” and he had nothing because he was caught up in the experience and hearing a lot of energizing things, but he came back energized, but really not knowing the next step. So that intentionality for a ministry to say, “We're going to invest and do this, and we're going to stay after it, and you have a responsibility when you get back to share with others in the organization what you learned,” is huge. Huge.
Al: Having people come back and do lunch and learns, for example, is a perfect way to do that, isn't it? Yeah, right, yeah. So yeah, to our listeners, if you're sending people to conferences, which are great learning and development opportunities, yeah, be intentional about how you reinforce what people learn, and have them—what is it?—learn it, do it, teach it, something like that is the best method for learning and development. Yeah.
Well, Tami, we've already mentioned it, but as you know, the Evangelical Council for Financial Accountability, ECFA, has added this new standard regarding the care for a leader and their leader's well-being. So we recently had Michael Martin on the podcast, talking about this, and I know you also spoke into the creation of this standard with ECFA. So why is this emphasis, from your perspective, why is this emphasis on deepening the health of the leader so important now in Christian non-profit ministries?
Tami: I would say that this leader care new accreditation standard is essential because it falls in the hands of the board, and the board's number one call to any ministry is going to be the vision and the mission of it. The second most important call the board has is to the care and feeding of the CEO, whether that's selecting—whether it's just selecting them, it's nurturing them, all of those things are so important because if the board understands the vision and mission clearly and then hires the right CEO, all of the other responsibilities of the board become very easy because they've hired the right person.
Now, what happens is sometimes a board will get very much, “Here's the numerical stuff. Here's the performance. What's the impact? Are you growing?” And for a board now to pause and say, “But, like, how are you, really? And how are we caring for you?” because we know ministry burnout is a reality. And as a leader, you can just say, “Well, I'm going to pretty much kill myself here, but it's for God's glory, and it's what I'm called to do,” and they get hung up in that cycle. So the board has to have responsibility. Just like in an organization, the CEO and the leaders within that organization have to care for the well-being of their employees. So everything that you do at Best Christian Workplace, I mean, it's just amping it up to a higher level with the CEO. And so for them to be thoughtful about that, to think about that is really an important dimension of all of this. Like, are we giving our CEOs sabbatical? How are they resting? Tell us about your vacation.
In fact, I had a CEO evaluation one year that was a self-evaluation, and I found it very interesting. So the board chair said, “I want you to talk about, what do you feel good about, what are your disappointments, and what have you learned in all of it? And I want the report to have nothing to do with what you did at CLA.” Powerful, Al, because all of a sudden it was a switch and looking at my life and the things that we're doing, but it was also, I don't know, like a joyful experience to see how it came together. And didn't really ask, and again, you know, there's other ways you can get financial performance and results, but I thought that was just an interesting exercise. And in many ways, I feel like that's what this new leader-care initiative can do.
And also, the bottom line is, you want a healthy leader that is spending time with God, that is in the Word, that knows how to put on the right spiritual disciplines that can keep them connected so that they are leading inspired, inspirational leaders, because of the Holy Spirit at work in their life. And candidly, it's just really hard right now. I mean, there's a lot of struggles. And if you are not grounding yourself every day, there's so much disruption, distraction, and the things that can derail you from the purpose and call. So, I mean, guarding your heart now is more essential than it's ever been, and the only way that you can discern the times and the things that are happening is if, really, you're making that space for God. I mean, Jesus had to get alone. Jesus was the Word, everything that He said was found in the Word. And He often said, I've only done what the Father has told Me to do. And so He modeled that. And now for boards to care for leaders of nonprofit ministries and saying, “You know, we want to make sure that you have time alone, that you are listening to God, and that you are in the Word and leading this ministry from the center of all of that.”
Al: Yeah. With full cup.
Tami: Yes.
Al: Being filled up. I think in my time working in Christian—now, I came out of the corporate sector and started working with Christian ministries 23 years ago, and there was the corporate attitude of, “All I care about is the performance on the job, and don't tell me anything about your soft needs,” kind of thing. And you know that, Tami. That's where you came from, too. And it's so backwards because, you know, it's actually the leader's heart, it's the heart of the leader, it's the spiritual maturity of a leader that drives their behaviors and that's their performance. And so we're able to, by focusing on the care for the leader, we'll actually improve the health of the organization at the same time. So yeah. That’s been something that I've seen more of. I mean, again, I remember in my early years, I worked with a well-known organization, Christian ministry, and they had a policy, and it was an unwritten policy, but it's kind of like, “Pray on your own time, and come filled up. That's what church is for. But come to work filled up. And we're not going to take a lot of time in prayer and fellowship and doing Bible studies, because that's your responsibility to do that on your own time.” And that's changed, and I think it's our culture is combative in the sense we need to be more filled up in that sense. But yeah, I've noticed those changes over time.
Tami: They're good ones.
Al: Yeah. They're important changes for the times, for sure. Yeah. Right.
Tami: And I would say, again, as all of this is coming together, your work, our work, others' work, I mean, I feel like it's also the clarion call of God to say, be ready. We have to get ready to be ready.
Al: Well, let's talk a little bit now because, you know, with leaders, it can be lonely at the top. And we know it's important for senior leaders to have relational connections with peers and specifically with people that you care deeply about and with and maybe who aren't in your own organization. In fact, it's probably better that they're not in your organization. And I know you've worked a lot with a group of peers who have taken retreats together, and they meet, and they encourage each other. So talk about the importance of peer relationships in the health of a leader and how someone might go about cultivating these types of relationships.
Tami: I think they're very essential because as much as you may have a spouse that loves you and treats you so well and you have a family, they still will never fully get what it is that you're doing. And when you have peers who are in the same kind of place, facing the same kind of challenges, you know, whether it's in the ministry or with self or whatever, having someone that you can process that with makes a huge difference in your life. And finding groups that are like you, which, you know, again, at the Conference, we have different tracks, we have different things, we have a CEO forum. I mean, there's places to do this, but I know for me, in addition to my circle group of other CEOs that I speak with regularly, I was at a CEO forum at CLA, and there was someone at our table talking about, “You've got to have a battle buddy. You've got to have a battle buddy.” And I remember thinking, “A battle buddy?” Well, and again, he was the leader of a Christian military segment, and he was talking about, so it was very army like. And I thought, and I said, “Lord, I need a battle buddy. I need a battle buddy. I want a battle buddy.”
And I remember getting up at the break and walking out, and I saw someone who took a CCNL course at Christian Leadership Alliance on leadership, and I was highly impressed with her. I mean, I kept thinking, while I'm facilitating the class, “She should be leading the class.” I mean, she was brilliant. And then, I ran into her at another conference at Growing Leaders, Tim Elmore's organization, where it was talking about the next generation, and we met up in the restroom line. And we're like, oh, you know, because we didn't have that kind of personal connection. And I ended up sitting with her the rest of that event. So this moment happens at the CEO forum, and I stand up, and I start to head out, and the Lord just said, “That's her. That’s her.” And I'm like, “What? I mean, I just asked, and that's her.”
And you know, Al, there's that moment when you say to yourself, “Okay. Well, I'm going to file that, and I'll catch up with her later.” Or you say, “I'm going to instantly obey this.” And I remember sitting down or coming down on my knees and just saying, “Hey, how you doing?” And then I said, “You know, we just had this interesting conversation about battle buddies.” And I know sometimes it's awkward to say, right? And I said, “I was just walking back, and the Lord just prompted me that that might be you.” And she's like, “I was asking for the same kind of person in my life.” And we've now traveled together every week for eight years. You know, doing that life on life, and she's a peer.
And I know in a past podcast, we talked about having peer guides, having wise guides that run ahead, and also surprise guides, somebody that's different. And so I think we need that, and we either need it in community or not. But there's a real joy in coming together. And the retreat that you mentioned, it was out of a felt need of women don't connect as well as—I mean, men can find activities and things that they can do together, but women just don't make the same kind of time. So this was an intentional effort to say, “Let's come together and build relationships that God can use.” We're going to teach you things, but we're just going to let people make connections and be in relationship. And now my greatest joy is, like, if I'm looking on Facebook or I'm at a conference and I see those women talking, and then, I see the fruit that comes because of those connections. But I can sit here and say, “I believe I could call any one of those women,” that we've been doing that retreat, and we're going to approach nine years of that, “I could them any time. And they would listen; they would pray; they would be there.” And we need that in our lives. I mean, we need people that we can go to, that will fully get it. You know, just having people that get the mantle that we carry, understand the frustrations, live through it every day, and live through the joy, I think it’s vital. I think it’s vital to have that community. And there's so many ways you can get it, but you have to find it.
Al: Yep. Leaders listening, do you have a community like that? Is there somebody that you can call at 2 a.m. and they'll be enthusiastic about answering the phone and helping? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Well, thanks, Tami.
You've had great insight into the needs of Christian organizations in your role, and you have both in-person conferences, but also online programs. So what do you see as the biggest challenge, maybe even the biggest opportunity for leaders in Christian organizations over the next few years? Put your prophetic hat on and give us your, from the seat you're in, which is a unique and a great seat to kind of reflect on, what do you see as the biggest challenges for leaders and Christian organizations in the next few years?
Tami: I actually think that it builds on everything that we've discussed. I think it is finding safe communities, it's being grounded in the Word, it’s finding those spiritual disciplines that can help you discern what's happening, because a thriving leader isn't a description of someone, “Oh, I'm happy, and everything's wonderful;” the definition really comes back to, “I'm a leader. Regardless of the situation, I know God is in control. I am confident in that. And I am prepared to take the next step as He guides it.” And as I said before, I think that there's just all sorts of challenges. I mean, when you look at it now and you sit and you look at the news, you think, “Oh, my goodness. How could that all happen in just one day?” There's a lot of hurt, and there's a lot of ache that I know many nonprofit ministries are on the front lines of trying to deliver that. And sometimes it's hard if funding's pulled or you're closed out of a country or you can't minister and you can do those things. But being in a place where you have that, you are fully convinced that God is who He says He is, is critical for whatever may happen. Because again, I think things are happening so fast. It just keeps accelerating because there's more people; there's more thoughts; there's more ideas; there’s technology. I mean, how much time do we spend trying to figure out AI and its place in everything? And we go through that debate. But how do we look at these things and say, “All right. What's my part to subdue those things in a way that they can be used by God versus to be completely consumed by them in an unhealthy way?” And I think with everything that's going on around us, again, I think the biggest challenge is guarding our hearts in that moment because it's only coming fiercer and faster, and we have to be ready, and we've been equipped. God has equipped us with everything that we need to be able to stand hard, not lose heart in whatever we're faced with.
Al: Yeah, As you say, accelerating change. We're seeing change growing faster and faster, and people are looking for leaders that are on point, who are not ruffled by whatever's going on; people that are, leaders that are deep in their faith, who have experienced God's love and grace. There's no question, yeah.
Tami: And maybe doesn't always have the answer.
Al: Right. Yeah.
Tami: And it's okay to be in a place of not knowing the exact answer, the exact direction, the next step, but willing to say, “It's worthy to wait on God until we have that clarity. Let's just be attuned with what He's doing, and let's just seek God together,” and that promise, “If you seek Me, you will find Me if you seek Me with your whole heart.” And so imagine what happens in a world today that's super chaotic and there's a lot of crazy stuff coming if teams within ministries would seek God with their whole heart, what He’d be able to accomplish through them.
Al: Amen. Well, Tami, that's a great way to end our conversation.
We've learned so much from the conversation. As we go back to even our discussion about the personal-leadership track at the Outcomes Conference and how that's become such an important track and one that people are going to most frequently. And how through leadership, we need to learn to lead ourselves first before we can lead others and lead organizations, and how people are just getting grounded in that as they prepare for their leadership. And how it's great to have teams come together and have mutual learning experiences so that they can go back and actually implement what they've learned through the team, through the group. And how it's so fascinating that the organization you lead is creating new beginnings, new ministries, new groups that are impacting organizations that belong to CLA, impacting Kingdom organizations. And the importance of training and investing in leaders and how leader care is such an important topic, how peer leadership and peer relationships really help strengthen our leadership. It's just been a rich conversation.
How about a bottom line, Tami, or something you'd like to add that we've talked about, to leave us with?
Tami: Al, we've covered so many things. I think for leaders to be not only in the posture of seeking, but paying attention to everything, not as it's just a happenstance, but really saying, “Lord, what are You trying to communicate? Help me see what this is.” And that as leaders, we find that posture that we seek first and not react to a situation, but we respond from a place of humility and confidence because of the way that we see God at work.
And I appreciate that we're in this moment of time. I'm trying to imagine being in this moment in time without all of these things coming together to strengthen us. And I love that even today we could have this space to give significance to the weight of the time and this true need for leaders to thrive for cultures to flourish.
Al: Amen. Well, thanks, Tami. It's just great to be with you today. Thanks so much for your contribution. And I appreciate your commitment to God—and you've expressed that deeply today—and the way you've prioritized equipping godly leaders. So thanks for taking your time out and speaking into the lives of so many.
Tami: And thanks for being such an amazing partner, Al, and all the incredible impact Best Christian Workplaces had in the foundation that you've laid, and just the excitement I feel just in seeing, you know, how that's going to continue to evolve and grow and just bless you in all of the good work that you've done, and give thanks to God for all of it.
Al: Well, thanks to God, and thanks to our friends like you that help us along the way. We really appreciate it. So thank you, Tami.
Tami: Thanks, Al.
Al: Thanks so much for listening to my conversation with Tami Heim. I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did.
You can find ways to connect with her and links to everything we discussed in the show notes and transcript at workplaces.org/podcast.
And here's a final call to action. Christian leadership begins with the condition of your heart. So before your next strategic discussion or team meeting, pause, seek God, and ask, “Am I leading from a place of humility, connection, and purpose?” Whether it's deepening your spiritual disciplines, investing in your team, or prioritizing your own well-being, take one step this week towards becoming the thriving Christ-centered leader your organization needs, because as Tami Heim reminds us, flourishing cultures start with flourishing leaders.
So keep listening to our weekly podcast as we continue to learn from leaders who are proven inspirational leaders. Next week, I'll be talking with Doug Mazza, the president emeritus of Joni and Friends.
Outro: The Flourishing Culture Leadership Podcast is sponsored by Best Christian Workplaces. If you need support building a flourishing workplace culture, please visit workplaces.org for more information.
We'll see you again next week for more valuable content to help you develop strong leaders and build a flourishing workplace culture.