The Flourishing Culture Podcast Series
“5 Principles of Effective Leadership“
January 17, 2022
Dr. Jerry White
Intro: Do you see yourself continuing to flourish as a leader in Christian service to age 84 or beyond? Well, today my conversation is with just such a leader. I hope this episode will challenge you to think about how you steward the gifts and experience God has blessed you with long term.
Al Lopus: Hi, I'm Al Lopus, and you're listening to the Flourishing Culture Podcast, where we help you create a flourishing workplace. The problem employers are facing today is that more of our employees are quitting than ever before. Some people are calling this the great resignation. And now with millions of open jobs, how can churches, Christian non-profits, and Christian-owned businesses face this tidal wave of resignations while attracting new, outstanding talent? And we know that having a flourishing workplace with fully engaged employees is the solution. I'll be your guide today as we talk with a thought leader about key steps that you can take to create a flourishing workplace culture.
So, now let's meet today's special guest.
What are the habits and practices that you need as a leader to be effective in the long run? One of the keys is self-leadership and taking responsibility for your own ongoing growth. As years of leadership stretch into decades, how can you stay focused and effective? Well, today we'll address these issues in our conversation.
And I'm delighted to welcome Dr. Jerry White. He's the international president emeritus of the Navigators, and much more. So, welcome, Jerry.
Jerry White: Thank you, Al. Great to be with you. Long relationship you and I have had, so this is fun.
Al: Yeah. It's a lot of fun, and I'm looking forward to it. Thanks, Jerry.
And, you know, talk about long relationships, I've gotten to know you serving together on the Christian Leadership Alliance board. I think it was even the Christian Management Association at the time, where we started. And you've had several careers, in many ways. Share with us a little bit about your Air Force career, as well as your leadership with the Navigators and even Lausanne after that. Give us a little context of your decades of leadership experience for our listeners.
Jerry: Happy to do that. Well, I began after I graduated from the University of Washington in electrical engineering; went on active duty with the Air Force, United States Air Force; began to train as a pilot; long story short. But that did not work in the way I had planned it. And instead, the Air Force, then, assigned me to Cape Canaveral as a mission controller. And that was in the early ’60s, when the space program was just starting out. We were in Mercury, Gemini, the beginnings of Apollo, all the things that were going on of the beginning of our space age. And I had just intended to get out and go back to Boeing Aircraft Company and work as an engineer, where I'd been an intern.
But God spoke to me while I was at Cape Canaveral and said, basically, stay in the Air Force, get a master's degree, and go teach at the Air Force Academy and get training from the Navigators, who were co-located in Colorado Springs. And so I ended up doing that through a series of miracles, by the way, that the Lord provided for that. Arrived at the Air Force Academy, had not been there 24 hours when the—I hadn’t even moved into a house—and a chaplain called and said, “Would you be willing to teach a Bible study with cadets?” Now, they didn't know me, but somehow my name got to them. And within 48 hours I met with 500 students and proposed a Bible study. Only 12 came, but it developed an official entrée for the Navigator ministry, but, really, under the chaplains at the Air Force Academy. And then, of course, I was teaching in the Department of Astronautics, and so my entire Air Force career was engaged somehow in space, satellites.
So I worked at the Academy; ended up getting a Ph.D. in that field, which I did not want to get; but then went on to space track Cheyenne Mountain. And when I left active duty, which was quite a surprise to me, at two-thirds of the way through my Air Force career, Lorne Sanny, the president of the Navigators, asked if I would consider coming full time into a regional leadership role with the Navigators. We prayed, and we'd always said wherever God wants us, we'll go. And so I did. But I, through a number of circumstances, stayed in the Air Force Reserves and continued working in the space arena and ultimately was promoted as a general officer and ended up having responsibility for the reserves on 10 bases in the United States Air Force. So it was really quite a strain because I had two officers, one here in Colorado Springs and one in Dayton, Ohio, at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base. All of that was a surprise to me because none of that had I expected.
Al, I'm a kid from a little farm community in Iowa, from a divorced home, marriage from a farm community in Minnesota. We have no idea how we got to experience some of the interesting things that we had experienced through the years.
But in 1986, Lorne Sanny walked into my office—I was the COO of the Navigators at that time—and said, “Thirty years is enough. I am stepping down. Let's set up a process for selecting a new president.” He and I and another person had worked through the process, and my job was simply to set up the process. And about two months ahead of time, it just struck me: I could be one of the candidates. But I didn't expect that at all, nor had I planned on it, and ultimately became president of the international Navigators.
And Al, just for that context, we're in about 112 countries with about 5,500 staff, about 20,000 lay leaders. We have Internet. About half our ministry is outside the United States and half in the United States.
Al: Yeah.
Jerry: So I did that for 18 and a half years, and stepped down.
So that's just a quick summary, and please ask any questions that you would like to on that.
Al: And you sent out a letter, and a group of us were praying for you. I know you just, speaking of what you're doing now, you just went to Nigeria or Africa, what, recently, didn't you?
Jerry: Yes.
Al: So you've been doing this now for years. So tell us about that trip and what your role was there.
Jerry: Well, Nigeria was the first trip after COVID.
Al: Mm-hmm.
Jerry: And it has been a place where there’s been a lot of difficulties in our Navigator security. People really did not want me to go, but I felt very secure. I'd been there a number of times, and so I was invited by the Navigators and the Evangelical Church of West Africa and did 13 sessions on ethics and how the dangers that men face, on many different topics, how to live the Christian life in a persecuted place, how to view your enemies, and many other topics like that.
But getting there was a nightmare.
Al: Yeah.
Jerry: Had to go through Ethiopia; planes didn't go. But once I was there, it was just a beautiful time. And this is what I've done through the years. And by the way, as an emeritus member, I don't invite myself anywhere.
Al: Mm-hmm.
Jerry: I only go when I'm asked, because if I were to say to somebody in the Philippines, “Well, I'd like to come,” what are they going to say—
Al: Yeah, right.
Jerry: And I'm not going to have that. So teaching, particularly in the area of leadership and ethics and particularly on the theology of work is what I like to teach on these days.
Al: Well, speaking of theology of work, okay, Jerry, one thing that you've left out is Lausanne. You've been involved with that now for quite a while. Tell us a little bit about that.
Jerry: Well, the Lausanne movement was started by Billy Graham and John Stott in 1974 with their conference in Lausanne, Switzerland, to bring the leaders together of the Christian world, Christian missions world, particularly. And then we had another one in ’89 in Manila; and then in 2010, in Cape Town. And what I observed was this, and one of our key funders, who, of the Manila time, knew that we had had of 4,000 people in Manila, there were only 40—four zero—who were out of the business world. And they said, “Jerry, you've got to have more people out of the lay world. It's not just all you full-time people.”
Al: Yeah.
Jerry: And so in Cape Town, we actually had 10 percent, 400, out of the lay world. And out of that has come a recognition in the Lausanne movement of the key role of the ordinary layman doing their work in their ordinary business. That's 98 percent of the people. And so the theology of work and the calling to your secular profession, people ask me, Al, “What are you called to do?” And I just, “Well, I’m called to the Air Force.” And they said, “What? Aren’t you called to the Navigators?” Oh, yeah. That, too.” But the fact is that God brought me into my profession as an astronautical engineer, as a scientist, and that's my credentials in the secular world, having written a textbook that still is my calling card. Last week I was out at the Air Force Academy and meeting with staff and cadets, and that is still my calling card. They don't know me for the Navigators. They know me from that part of my professional life.
Al: The author of the Fundamentals of Astrodynamics. I mean—
Jerry: Right. Astrodynamics, right.
Al: Yeah, yeah. Astrodynamics.
Jerry: And by the way, the authors are Bate, Mueller, and White, so the cadets call it the BMW.
Al: There you go. Okay. Yeah, amazing.
I mean, so, Jerry, you’re 84 years old, 37 years of active duty in the Air Force. You were one of the general officers. Well, that's a major general. You retired as a major general. You mentioned Ph.D. in astronautics from Purdue. You know, you've written and coauthored 16 books. Just a remarkable career over time.
You know, here's a personal question. With the new innovations in space, I mean, I'm sure you're looking at this with interest, with Bezos and others going into space. Any reflection on that?
Jerry: Well, yes. We're going back to the moon. We're going to do Mars. Tomorrow I'll be sitting in, not leading, a space-power seminar led by a man that I am discipling, a four-star general, who is Catholic and a great man. And so we're discussing the whole role of space with the new Space Force. It used to be Space for Peace, but now there's more fighting.
Al: Mm-hmm.
Jerry: We had the Russians just put a satellite right next to one of ours and blow it up, blow their satellite up, which put 1500 pieces of junk into space. Things are changing tremendously. However, we just did the second edition of the Fundamentals of Astrodynamics, and it's still the basic text because the fundamentals do not change. It all works according to the physics of space. And so that part doesn't change. What has changed, Al, is the computer technology and what the power I have on my watch is bigger than the power that ran the initial space program in the ’60s.
Al: Yeah. And I think back of the Mercury program and seeing Cape Canaveral and they'd show all the engineers. You were one of those white shirts, probably, in those early days. Yeah.
Jerry: Well, I was in an Air Force uniform and in a different control center—
Al: Ah.
Jerry: —but that’s all right. Yeah.
Al: Well, Jerry, I appreciate the way God has uniquely gifted you and your contributions to our country and to the Kingdom of God. Now let's talk about some leadership habits or practices that have been important to you personally, that have helped guide you through these years of ministry and throughout your career. What would you say have been important habits or practices that have kept you sharp and kind of engaged?
Jerry: Well, the first principle—and I was with some businessmen this noon, and I was saying I’m going to be on this podcast, and one of the questions was going to be on principle. And they said, “Well, what were they?” So, we had a discussion just this noon.
But the first thing is that people are what count, and we need to treat everybody with respect and dignity. Then, the discussion came up today, “What if you have to fire somebody, and they’re disturbing things? Can you still respect them?” And yes, as a person, but we still hold them accountable.
Al: Yeah.
Jerry: So in leadership, you not only have to treat people well, you do need to hold them accountable.
The second leadership principle is to recruit people who are smarter and more gifted than I am and not be afraid of letting them lead. The team that I had with the Navigators were all more gifted than I was. Paul Stanley, West Point grad, great leadership. Donald McGilchrist, who was an Oxford grad, ran part of British Railways; smarter than I was. And Jim Peterson, one of our veteran missionaries. So I found that by having people like that, that I could comfortably let them lead. And who cares who gets the credit?
A third thing is the functioning as a team. No person leads by themselves. And if you can't function on a team and be a contributing member to the team and then to be able to lead a team and have them be unified around a goal, you will not succeed in what you're doing. But, of course, you might say then, “Well, what about the vision?” Yes, there needs to be a shared vision. You aren't just leading aimlessly. You have to know where you're going. In the 18 years of leading the Navigators, I tried three times to clarify and rethink our vision. Two times failed. It didn't work. And the third time, it really came together with our calling and a set of core vision and mission that here, now, 12, 14 years later, it's still what they're using. And so God led. But we had to get—the vision isn't just what I have, but it has to be shared by the person right down on the grassroots and on the line. And so I think that's one of the key things that I would say.
Now, let me just say one other issue. Every leader has to make changes, and so how do you implement change? Change either destroys or builds a mission or company or whatever you may have, and the only way that you can make change happen is to have ownership that is far broader than your leadership. And when we did the change in the Navigators to a new core value and vision, we knew that the key was pushing it to the grassroots, which we did. And today our area reps know what that vision is and what the core values are and operate on it. But that takes time to develop. You can't walk in and say, “Oh, I've got this vision. And by the way, I'm going to dictate what it is, and everybody get in line.” That just won’t work.
Al: Taken from the master, right there. Yeah. “That won't work” is right. Yeah, I love that. And of course, the Navigators are a certified best Christian workplace. And I know your people out in the hinterlands are engaged in the ministry. There's no question about it. So that's great insight.
I counted five: people are what count—
Jerry: Yeah, that’s right. I had five written down—
Al: Yeah.
Jerry: —jotted it in here. Yes.
Al: —recruit people that are smarter and more gifted than you are. That's one I've taken on myself. Function as a team, really build a shared vision and implement change effectively is what I took away. That's fantastic.
Jerry, how about, what are some of the practices that have sustained you and maybe some of the patterns or disciplines that have been particularly helpful in your own self-leadership over the years and even now at this point in your life?
Jerry: Well, in this current season, I’m not leading anything. I lead little pieces of things on boards and so forth, but no longer have any executive authority. And so I say, “Okay. What is it that makes me get up in the morning?” And that is, you still need purpose, and purpose is not equal to position. So whether I am in a leadership role, the leadership role, or just a member of a team, there has to be a purpose that keeps you going. Some would say it’s a calling.
Al: Yeah.
Jerry: And one of the things I’m doing right now, one of the projects—so I have projects that I'm working on, and one of the projects, NavPress has asked me to revise the book Dangers Men Face, which I wrote 25 years ago. And so one of the key purposes in there, I'm putting in a chapter on purpose and dangers in the fourth quarter.
Al: Mm-hmm.
Jerry: And one of the key things is the loss of identity. Who am I now that I am not x, y, or z? I'm not an engineer. I'm not a pilot. I'm not a key person in my company. In fact, I'm no longer—I don't have small children, so I'm not a father. I'm a grandfather.” And so you have to redefine your identity, and that means you have to look carefully at the issue of significance. And we are significant no matter what age. And so at this stage of my life, the only thing I have to offer is influence and counsel if it's given. But believe me, Al, nobody is going to ask a person who's cynical, who criticizes the past, who uses this horrible phrase called “been there, done that.” You know, it's a killer. And so for younger people, whether they're in their fifties, now that I'm in my 80s, whether it's people in the 60s, 50s, 40s, 30s, they don't want you to critique what they're doing. They want you to affirm what they're doing, and then they may ask for some guidance. And it has to come out of my inner self, not out of my professional past. Al, the only thing that my past does is open a door for the first five minutes so someone might want to listen. From there on, it's irrelevant. And then it has to be, what is your walk with Jesus today? What are you doing? And by the way, I feel everybody should be under authority, so I report to our international president. It’s kind of uncomfortable for me, but I found it’s very important.
Al: Yeah. Be under authority, yeah. Okay.
I trust you’re enjoying our podcast today. We’ll be right back after an important word for leaders.
Female: As we come through the COVID-19 crisis, leaders everywhere are asking, how do we understand the tensions our employees are experiencing coming back to work? How do we keep our employees engaged, hold on to our best talent, and position ourselves to thrive as an organization going forward? If you're looking for a way forward, the Best Christian Workplaces Institute can guide you onto the road to a flourishing workplace.
The first step to begin the journey is our well-known Employee Engagement Survey. This proven online tool pinpoints where your organization is already strong and where you can improve your employees’ workplace experience, resulting in more productive people. That's right. You'll have more engaged, productive, and fulfilled people. Time-consuming guesswork won't get you there. Instead, let us help you with a fact-based, hope-inspiring action plan that only our Employee Engagement Survey and skillful coaching can provide. Sign up now to begin the journey to build a flourishing workplace culture and a thriving organization. Find out more at bcwinstitute.org.
Al: And now, back to today’s special guest.
Well, you know, Jerry, on this podcast, a lot of people say you can only bring who you are to any situation.
Jerry: Right.
Al: I mean, what you're saying is guidance needs to come from your inner self, not from your past. And that is who you are is from your inner self. Yeah. And yeah, your walk with Jesus today. That's important day after day after day, no matter the age. That's for sure.
Well, Jerry, let's move on. I really enjoyed meeting your wife, Mary, and having dinner with you guys and seeing her at your side at conferences and in other places. And I also know some of this group, but you've got a group of friends who have come together and been with you, what, 50 years you've lived with this group of three other couples? Is that right?
Jerry: Yes.
Al: So share a little bit about that circle of support and those relationships and the way you sustain those over the years.
Jerry: We have a group of friends. We call it a covenant group.
Al: Mm-Hmm. There are three other couples. One of the men has since died, but the other four of our group are still in. We've been meeting for 40 years, and we have a simple purpose, and the purpose is to help each other walk with Jesus for a lifetime. And so we don't do—we would really not do much without consulting with one another and being together. So it's more than just an accountability group. It's not a kind of group where you say, “Okay. Did you send this? Did you do this? Did you say that?” But it's the kind of group where they know you well enough so they can tell if something’s wrong. And right, you knew two of the three couples that are in this group, Al. And they are dear friends. We've been meeting now by Zoom about every two weeks. Normally, we just meet twice a year in person. But this group helps keep me going. And, by the way, it's not for me; it’s for us.
Al: Yeah.
Jerry: So the group wasn't founded to support Jerry White. It was founded because we were supporting each other and in our lives. We've had a lot of ups and downs in our lives, and that group of friends has been there.
Now, I want to clarify. They're not our only friends.
Al: Right.
Jerry: We have a lot of—I have a couples group here in Colorado Springs that are very close, but it's one group that has been consistent through our life.
Al: Yeah. And they don’t even live in Colorado Springs with you, this group, the covenant group. I mean, they’re in different places.
Jerry: Yeah. There’s two in Seattle and Chico.
Al: Yeah, right. Yeah. Well, that story, it's a remarkable story. I know the previous president, Doug Nuenke, has had a pretty close group that supported him over time as well. And in leadership, you can really get off by yourself, and having lifetime groups like this, people that know you and are close to you, really help balance—wouldn’t you say that helps balance your life, not only your leadership?
Jerry: It does. And, Al, one thing is very clear. This is couples; it's not just the men. So they'll tune in on what Mary is saying. We’ll tune in on what the other wives are saying.
And you know that a number of years ago our son was murdered.
Al: Well, that’s my next question.
Jerry: Oh, okay.
Al: Yeah, yeah. So over the years—
Jerry: Well, in 1990—
Al: Yeah, tell us.
Jerry: —our son was murdered. He was at his job, working, and it was a random thing. It was senseless. But at that time, two things happened. One is it caused us to get on our knees and find out whether or not God was truly sovereign, and does God love us? And so we did that. I still remember the night coming home. We'd been speaking at a conference in Ohio, and Mary and I got down on our knees beside our bed and just said, “God, we don't know what You're doing, but we trust You.” Now, that didn't lessen the pain and the grief. And so today we have a ministry with parents of murdered children and just the loss of children. As you know, Mary has written a book called Harsh Grief, Gentle Hope, which we're happy to give to anybody, on just what God did in us through that experience.
But, Al, a second thing happened as a consequence of that. It did something inside the Navigators. It changed my leadership. First of all, it showed me as a vulnerable person. But up to that point, you think operating internationally is someone who has a Ph.D. and is a general and all that, that's not particularly comforting and attractive to many of our internationals, because the military is feared in most countries. But when that happened, they saw Mary and me as hurting people, who were ordinary human beings and needed them. It did as much to unify the Navigators worldwide as did the core values that I taught.
Al: To our listeners, Harsh Grief, Gentle Hope, I've read the book, Jerry, and it's really a touching book and a great book for anybody that is interested. Thanks for those heartfelt words. I know you learned a lot and grew even in that difficult time.
But what would you say today to leaders who are in the middle of their careers? You know, I think back to when you were in your 40s. How could they be sustained over the long haul to stay true to their calling to live a life of integrity? Maybe even, what do you think about this group you were talking with in Nigeria? What advice do you have?
Jerry: Well, that's a great question. I remember in my 40s, I had no big ambitions to be anybody significant, and I just did my job well, and I worked hard. Mary and I have talked. We've shared some things over the last few days with some young people. I said there's nothing that is a substitute for hard work.
Al: Mm-Hmm.
Jerry: And so at the midpoint of one's career, it's easy to quit and to say, “Well, I'm going nowhere.” But I just say, “Don't quit,” and never say, “Well, I've done all that I can do.” But the key thing for me is to be a learner.
Al: Mm-hmm.
Jerry: Never worry about promotion, but worry about growing in both your competence and the breadth of your knowledge. If it has to be a new field, your field is going away because computers have replaced you, well, then, you have to develop some new skills.
The other thing that I found is highly motivational in the middle part of your life is to train up the next generation, to see you building in the lives of younger people who are around you in your business, in your organization. And then I encourage people, whether they're in mission organizations or whether in the secular role, is to reassess your vision and your calling. It's not a problem to have a midlife crisis, to say, “Am I doing the right thing?” Maybe you need to change. But you have to say, “Has God called me to this point?”
For instance, I know a number of people in the military, for instance, who have the opportunity to go on and to higher ranks, who have said no, primarily because of their family, the moving and all of this. I have one very close friend who has three profoundly deaf daughters. And so every career move that he made had to be with that in mind, where they could have the proper education. And it probably kept him from becoming a general officer. He did retire as a full colonel. But others have said, “I need to sacrifice something on my career for a higher purpose, and the higher purpose is the family.”
One thing I also say, don't escape to the Christian world; that is, go into some—a parachurch ministry or whatever. If you have not done inside your current secular job the business of evangelism and discipleship, you have no reason to think that you will do it if you're full time with some mission organization.
Al: Right.
Jerry: So it's okay to reassess. But maybe it's just to renew. Maybe it is to change jobs. Maybe it is to do something different. Or maybe it is to stay right where you are.
Al: Yeah. Great, Jerry. Couldn't agree with you more. I love that, focus on excellence and hard work. There's no substitute. Be a learner. Train up the next generation. Yeah, think of others and bring them along. Yeah.
And there are a lot of people that will say, and I've heard them say, “Yeah, gosh. I'd love to work in Christian ministry. That would be a lot easier.” That's not a reason to go into Christian ministry.
Jerry: No.
Al: Because it's not. Yeah.
Well, Jerry, you've been a great example to me and to many others, fully serving God and leading even at an age when most people will pull back. What are your thoughts on stewarding your time and energy in this season of your life?
Jerry: Well, it's a given fact that your energy is going to decrease, and health may or may not stay with you when you get into above age 60. But the main thing I would say is, don't live in the past. Keep pushing forward. Say, “What does God got for me now?” That's one of the key things.
Also, at this time of life, the fact is that family, both my wife, Mary, and my grandchildren, and now two great-grandchildren, they take precedence over everything. Now, the fact is, they don't have much time for us. I mean, they've got their own lives, so I have to adjust my schedule to them.
Then, the second thing, Al, that I would say is, keep physically fit, and that is a new phase of your life. You may not have been an exerciser or a runner or whatever it is throughout your life. But if you do not do that when you're 50 and 60 and above, you will decline.
And so I really encourage people in just two simple areas. One is to keep moving, and I encourage people to use weights, particularly lower-body weights, because the science has proven that that relates to both your mental capacity and to your ability not to become stupid, in a way. It’s a muscle issue.
And the second is to be careful what you eat and with your weight and your intake of food. Someone said, “What should you do?” Well, I say, “Keep walking and do push-aways. Push away from the table.”
Al: Yeah.
Jerry: And we joked about that this noon with some business guys.
And then, the other thing is to keep your basic disciplines going. You may, in the latter part of your life, have more options on your time. So take that time to become a student of the Word. You can't say, “Oh, it's too late.” No, it's never too late. I can give you illustrations. In fact, in history, some of the greatest inventions of these centuries have been by people over 80, that they have continued to be productive.
And then, Al, one thing that keeps me going is my relationship with nonbelievers. And you have to work at that. It doesn't come naturally, and you probably are not going to find them in your church context. So you need to be out in the community. I don't know what it is for you. I have a lot of opportunities, through my handball, through my Air Force connections, through social events that I go to. In fact, it's interesting. Mary and I go, Mary says, “Now, tell me one more time. Why are we going to this event?” because sometimes I know more of the people than she does. And I say, “We’re just going to see what happens and see what doors God opens up in the conversations tonight.”
Al: We’ve been talking about leadership practices, spiritual practices, so I know, and you've mentioned this already, you play handball. Well, not only do you play handball, you're a nationally competitive handball player. And I think you've figured out that the only way to become a national champion is to outlive your competition. Is that the…?
You've mentioned a couple of physical practices. Any others that you would recommend to our listening audience?
Jerry: Well, the three major issues are what you eat; just keeping going physically, whether you do a gym or whatever it is, if it's walking, just keep moving. But the third is relationships.
Al: Oh.
Jerry: Studies have shown that if you do not have relationships, you will shrivel up, and that happens to a lot of people when their spouse dies. And so it's very important, not just then, but now to have social relationships that are of value. That's why the body of Christ is there. That's one reason we're in church together. But, also, relationships outside the Christian community, because it keeps you moving, keeps you thinking, and it keeps you realizing people are watching you as to how you respond to the difficulties of life.
I want to say that there are health issues that no one can avoid, whether it's cancer or asthma or COVID or whatever it is. We are going to face those. Now, no amount of exercise and so forth is going to prevent some of those. But they will help us endure them and come through them. Just about everybody I know who has died of COVID has had either complicating issues or had not been in particularly good health.
Al: Well, Jerry, this has been a great conversation. I just go back to some of the habits that we talk about for leadership, starting off with people are what count. I just love that. We need to recruit people that are even smarter and more gifted than we are. For a leader, that's really important. We need to function as a team member on a team, that we need to have a vision and a shared vision with our teammates. And to implement change, we need to make sure that the broader members of the group are involved in that change and in leadership. I like the idea of the covenant group and your 40 years of living with these three other couples that you and Mary have done life with. That's something that I think leaders really need to look at in terms of their long-term relationships. And, you know, just so many other things. In terms with stewarding time, don't live in the past. What does God have for me now? You know, family takes precedence in the fourth quarter of life, to keep physically fit, to keep our basic disciplines, to have relationships outside of our inside group. And in your case, you're talking about relationships with nonbelievers and having an impact on that community. These are great lessons for all of us as we look at longevity and leadership.
Is there anything else you'd like to add that we haven't talked about?
Jerry: Well, one thing I should emphasize. I mentioned keeping your disciplines. By that, I mean keeping your personal devotional life, your prayer life, and studying the scriptures. Al, I have found that I need a small Bible study group, and that's often not just a little fellowship group. It's where we actually study the scriptures. And so I have always, if I'm not in one, I've created one, where we actually are going in depth into the scriptures. We need to keep growing.
And here's one thing I found when I went full time. I found that when I'm so busy in my career, when do you have time in the Word? Well, it's between 10 and 12 at night, and four and six in the morning or a little bit on Saturday morning. And so I needed some time. And as you move into my phase of life, you do have the time. But will you have the discipline to do it? Why not become an expert at something?
One thing I did, and I'm not sure you know this, Al, but at age 70, I took up the cello, and so I had my lesson yesterday, and I'm not all that good, but I'm having fun, and I'm enjoying it, and it's a challenge. It keeps my mind going. It’s just different.
Al: Yeah.
Jerry: And I’ve performed a little, but I'm not going to do that. That's not why I do it. I don't know what it is for people out there, but learn something new. Become an expert at something. You may tie flies and do fly fishing. I have friends who do that. But whatever it is, don't stop learning and reading and thinking. And I want to say for men that’s particularly hard because men typically don't read very much. Use audiobooks. You know, I'm listening to an audio. I was listening to it as I drove over here today. It's called The Guns of August by Barbara Tuchman, a history of World War One. Well, I'm just learning bunches from that, and it's keeping my mind going. So I really encourage people to keep growing no matter what. I think that's the summary that I would have. But the basics of the Christian life, keep doing them. Most of the writing, Al, that I have done have just been an outgrowth of my life and experience and what I'm studying. And I mentioned the Dangers Men Face or two other books. I know you had it in the list of questions.
Al: Yeah.
Jerry: But two others that I would really recommend are the Joseph Road, the life of Joseph, because he was a layman operating in an adverse environment without any other powers of God around you. And the other is the—in fact, the only one of the real books that’s just still in print is Honesty, Morality, & Conscience, on ethics, because we face that every day. So those are the things that I would—
Al: And where can we find those books, Jerry?
Jerry: All of them are on Amazon.
Al: Yeah. Yeah, great.
Jerry: All of them are on Amazon. Honesty, Morality, & Conscience is from NavPress. The others are all on Amazon. (time stamp 42:57) is being republished, by the way.
Al: Oh, good.
Jerry: That’s en route.
Al: Mm-hmm, right.
Well, thank you, Jerry.
Ladies and gentlemen, Jerry White, president emeritus of the Navigators, and many more things, I want to thank you for your contributions today. Most of all, as I've known you over the years, I appreciate your devotion and service to our loving God and for inspiring others with your life and service and country and ministry leadership. So thanks for taking your time out today and speaking into the lives of so many listeners. Thank you, Jerry.
Jerry: Thank you.
Outro: Thank you for joining us on the Flourishing Culture Podcast and for investing this time in your workplace culture. If there's a specific insight, story, or action step you've enjoyed, please share it with others so they can benefit, too. Please share this podcast with friends on social media, and show your support by rating, reviewing, and subscribing wherever you listen.
This program is copyrighted by the Best Christian Workplaces Institute. All rights reserved. Our social-media and marketing manager is Solape Osoba.
Remember, a healthy workplace culture drives greater impact and growth for your organization. We'll see you again soon on the Flourishing Culture Podcast.