What if the way we give and receive feedback could unlock healthier relationships and stronger workplace cultures? In this conversation, Sheila Heen—Harvard Law School lecturer, co-author of Thanks for the Feedback, and expert on negotiation and communication—shares powerful insights into why feedback is so hard and how leaders can navigate it with wisdom and grace.
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In this episode:
Guest Introduction & Background
- Sheila Heen: Founder of Triad Consulting Group, Harvard Law School lecturer since 1995. (00:54)
- 20+ years with Harvard Negotiation Project developing negotiation theory. (00:59)
- Co-author of NYT bestseller "Difficult Conversations: How to Discuss What Matters Most." (01:18)
- Specializes in emotionally charged negotiations and strained relationships. (01:05)
The Foundation: Why Difficult Conversations Matter
Organizational Change Reality
- Ability to handle difficult conversations is prerequisite to organizational change. (01:43)
- Globalized competition and technology create rapid change requiring adaptation. (02:35)
- Change "finds us" regardless of organization size or market reach. (02:50)
- Leaders increasingly need collaboration and influence skills across cultures and functions. (03:13)
Current Leadership Challenges
- Many leaders feel "at a loss" about developing necessary collaborative skills. (03:47)
- Technical capabilities alone insufficient for modern organizational needs. (03:53)
- Change requires working across differences, cultures, and functions. (03:18)
The Structure of Difficult Conversations
The Three Internal Conversations
Every difficult conversation involves three simultaneous internal dialogues: (05:14)
1. The "What Happened?" Conversation
- Our story about the situation: What we believe we're right about. (05:39)
- Blame assignment: Whose fault it is (others or ourselves). (05:40)
- Intention attribution: Why others are acting this way (clueless, controlling, difficult). (06:00)
2. The "Feelings" Conversation
- Managing strong emotions not supposed to show at work. (06:41)
- Feelings include: frustration, betrayal, confusion, sadness, fear, guilt. (06:47)
- Emotions "leak out" through tone, body language, facial expressions. (06:58)
3. The "Identity" Conversation (Deepest Level)
- What the situation suggests about us personally. (07:20)
- Questions like: Am I a good leader? Am I valued? Am I competent? Am I worthy? (07:28)
- These identity concerns fuel strong feelings and defensive stories. (07:38)
Moving Through the Tunnel: From Stuck to Solutions
The Problem with "Tunnel Vision"
- We wear "blinders" looking for magic words to make others agree. (09:42)
- Focus becomes getting them to see we're right rather than understanding differences. (10:11)
- This approach keeps us stuck in unproductive patterns. (10:27)
Al's Personal Example: Bad News Conversations
- Situation: Had to deliver disappointing news about not having a position for someone. (10:58)
- Identity fear: Worried about disappointing others. (11:13)
- Lesson: Had "blinders on" - didn't consider setup, other's emotions, or engagement. (11:26)
Key Insight on Bad News Delivery
- If people aren't upset during bad news conversations, we may not be clear enough. (12:08)
- Most people want bad news delivered: up front, straight, with willingness to hear impact. (13:37)
- We often "tiptoe around" instead of following our own advice about directness. (13:47)
Creating Learning Conversations
Purpose Shift: The Game Changer
- From: "I need to prove I'm right and get you to agree" (14:45)
- To: "I want to understand why we see this differently" (15:03)
Learning Conversation Benefits
- Better understanding of complete picture. (15:55)
- Relationship improvement even without agreement. (16:02)
- Opens possibility for genuine problem-solving. (16:43)
- Both parties learn about each other's perspectives. (16:11)
- Sometimes shifts our own perspective with new information. (16:17)
The Key Question
"Why do we see this differently?" - This simple question transforms dynamics
Christian Organizations & "Nice" Culture Challenges
The Politeness Trap
- Well-intentioned desire to be nice and kind. (17:36)
- Actual result: Handling conflict in ways that make things worse. (17:42)
- Pattern: Indirect communication → triangulation → underground conflict. (17:51)
Example of Dysfunction
- Instead of direct feedback: "You didn't deliver weekend work, what happened?" (18:24)
- Polite version: "How was your weekend?" → "Busy" → No resolution. (18:29)
- Consequence: Vent to others, create reputation problems, new people get "warned." (18:42)
The Matthew 18 Principle
- Going direct is actually more kind than letting issues fester. (19:58)
- Avoiding direct conversation creates underground conflict and unfair reputations. (20:10)
- True kindness requires honest, direct engagement. (20:15)
Leadership Responsibility in Difficult Conversations
Patrick Lencioni's Point
- It's the responsibility of servant leaders to have difficult conversations. (21:05)
- Many leaders lack desire or courage to address issues directly. (21:13)
Identity Shift for Leaders
- Old story: "I'm the person everyone loves working for." (21:46)
- New story: "My job is to equip people to work well together." (22:22)
- Servant leadership role: Catch issues early, name problems, bring people together. (22:42)
- Key question: "How can we improve this?" (22:47)
Early Detection Approach
- Spot problems early rather than waiting. (23:04)
- Name issues directly but constructively. (23:19)
- Focus on learning, growth, and change mindset. (23:06)
Consequences of Avoiding Difficult Conversations
Organizational Costs
- Innovation suffers: Blaming culture prevents risk-taking (24:22)
- Employee disengagement: Unfairness perceptions, carrying others' workloads. (24:35)
- Ripple effects: When bosses don't get along, it affects entire organization. (25:16)
- High transaction costs: Work-arounds, blame avoidance, inefficiency. (25:54)
- Talent loss: People leave rather than deal with dysfunction. (25:58)
- Bottom line impact: Affects clients, customers, and service delivery. (26:51)
The Two-Layer Problem
Organizations typically face:
- Surface layer: Business issues (strategy, deadlines, client acquisition). (27:31)
- Deeper layer: How people feel treated in daily work interactions. (27:45)
Common mistake: Trying to solve feeling problems with business pep talks (28:17)
The Role of Emotions in Workplace Success
Feelings Drive Performance
- People bring their "best selves" when they feel accepted and challenged. (29:01)
- Ignoring emotions means people leave part of themselves at home. (29:25)
- Result: Squandering huge percentage of available talent and capabilities. (29:32)
Professional Emotional Intelligence
- Not about heated arguments or emotional blame. (30:28)
- Focus: Reflective conversations about what's working/not working. (30:48)
- Problem-solving approach that remains professional and direct. (31:14)
- Addressing frustrations and anxieties constructively. (31:07)
Joint Contribution: Breaking Down Complex Conflicts
Moving Beyond Blame
- Key shift: From blame to "joint contribution." (31:58)
- Recognition: Everyone contributed something to current situation. (32:12)
- Not about: Equal blame or fault-finding. (32:33)
- About: Understanding how we got here and what needs to change. (32:54)
Contribution Analysis
- What did each person do or fail to do? (32:16)
- What external factors contributed? (market changes, resource constraints) (32:59)
- How can we change contributions to get different results? (33:16)
- Benefit: Enhances accountability without blame costs (33:29)
Essential Outcomes of Learning Conversations
Workplace Experience Transformation
- Confidence: "Whatever happens, I'm not alone," (34:54)
- Team unity: "We're all on the same team and will figure it out." (35:06)
- Learning mindset: Being wrong isn't a big deal if we learn and improve. (35:41)
- Early problem detection: Issues caught before becoming crises. (35:38)
- Diverse solutions: Capitalizing on different perspectives and ideas. (35:40)
Business Benefits
- Client satisfaction: Better outcomes and positive interactions even when problems occur. (35:52)
- Talent magnet effect: People want to work where every interaction is positive. (35:57)
- Competitive advantage: Especially important in low unemployment environment. (36:05)
Success Story Example
Contractor Turnaround
- Contractor expected to be fired (38:03)
- Used difficult conversation principles to prepare differently (37:40)
- Result: Client changed mind, saying "You handled this so well, let's give it another shot" (38:09)
- Demonstrates power of approaching conversations with learning mindset (38:27)
Personal Growth & Practical Application
Sheila's Personal Insights
- Even experts fall into same traps: focusing on being right, blaming others (40:00)
- Humility: Recognizing we all do things we advise against (40:10)
- Progress: Having difficult conversations earlier in process (40:15)
- Result: Fewer conversations escalate to crisis level (40:55)
Al's Key Learning
- Leadership involves "moving to problems quickly." (41:30)
- Don't back away from issues - engage them early. (41:35)
- Earlier engagement prevents bigger problems later. (41:39)
Separating Intentions from Impact
Key Distinction
- Assumption: Most people are well-intentioned, trying to do their best. (42:44)
- Reality: Good intentions can still create negative impacts. (42:50)
- Approach: "I don't know your intentions, but let's talk about the impact." (43:01)
Benefits of This Approach
- Reduces defensiveness in conversations. (43:18)
- Focuses on solvable problems (impact) rather than unprovable motivations. (43:10)
- Gives people grace while still addressing real issues. (42:57)
- Works whether intentions are good or not. (43:35)
The Invitation Approach
- Key insight: Can only control ourselves, not others. (45:04)
- Strategy: Invite others into different kind of conversation. (45:09)
- Persistence: Keep offering better invitations for dialogue. (45:18)
- Hope: It's rarely too late to turn around decades of frustration. (45:23)
Practical Implementation Advice
Starting Point for Complex Situations
- Map contributions: How did everyone contribute to current situation?
- Include external factors: What circumstances beyond individual control played a role?
- Identify changeable elements: What could each person do differently?
- Focus on future: What changes would create different results?
Resources for Further Learning
- Website: triadlearning.com or diffcon.com
- "Help Yourself" section: Additional reading, guides, worksheets
- Book: "Difficult Conversations: How to Discuss What Matters Most"
Final Encouragement
The goal isn't to control or change others, but to invite them into more productive conversations. Even long-standing conflicts and damaged relationships can be turned around through persistent, skillful invitations to engage differently. The key is focusing on what we can control - our own approach and invitation to dialogue.
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