Transcript: 5 Components That Create High Trust and High-Performing Groups // Robby Angle, Trueface

The Flourishing Culture Podcast Series

“Five Components That Create High Trust and High-Performing Groups “

September 20, 2021

Robby Angle

Intro: Would you like to improve your team's performance by creating a high-trust environment? Today we have a conversation with an expert in leading and designing thriving groups. Listen in as we talk about five components that create high-trust, high-performing groups.

Al Lopus: Welcome to another episode of the Flourishing Culture Podcast, where our goal is to equip and inspire Christian leaders to create a flourishing workplace. As we face today's leadership challenges, we are here to keep you from experiencing the pain of losing your best people and facing the resulting disruptions. Listen in as we help you attract and keep fantastic teams of engaged people who love one another while accomplishing great things for a higher purpose. Yes, we believe a flourishing culture is more important now than ever before. I'm Al Lopus and will be your guide today as we have a conversation about actions you can take that put you in the driver's seat on the road to flourishing.

One of the most important characteristics of a flourishing workplace is the ability of people to have healthy, authentic, trusting relationships with others, and today we're going to have a conversation about tested best practices to build transformational groups in your organization. I'm delighted to welcome Robby Angle, the president of Trueface and the author of the new book, The Cure for Groups. Trueface equips people to experience authentic relationships. And Robby, it's great to visit with you and welcome to the Flourishing Culture Podcast.

Robby Angle: Thanks for having me. I'm looking forward to it.

Al: So, Robby, many of us know the work of Trueface and the work of Bruce McNicol, Bill Thrall, John Lynch. And in a recent conversation with Bruce, he was excited to tell me about you and your book. So tell us a little bit about your journey and what led you to be the president of Trueface.

Robby: Yeah. My journey’s been kind of sporadic. I was a finance major, ended up in international disaster-response work with Samaritan's Purse. And then my wife talked me into counseling, both to go to counseling and to be a counselor. And I said, “Baby, I'm not sweet or empathetic or a good listener,” but she said, “You love relationships.” So got a master's in counseling, practiced as a licensed professional counselor for a while, and then ended up at a church, which I never thought I'd work at. And I was there for about seven or eight years. I was director of men's groups and over the adult ministries, men's groups, couples’ groups for about eight years at North Point Church in Alpharetta, with Andy Stanley.

And about two years ago, I transitioned to this 25-year message-based ministry called Trueface. But to give a little context as to how that journey unfolded, I have a Father in heaven that loves me, and He knew how He made me. And I am a first-born son—Robert Bruce Angle, the third—high drive, high achiever; eight-Enneagram, type-A stuff, with an authentic faith at a young age. And so for those of us with this wiring, it's, “Okay, God. Here I am. What do You want me to do?” And suddenly, there was this narrative of, okay, the super-Christians are either Billy Graham or a missionary in Africa. And I thought the business world was the tougher ministry field, by my dad's example, so that's why I went to study finance, to go into the business world. Ended up in Pakistan because my father knew that that was a season of brokenness for me, where here I am in northern Pakistan, al-Qaida territory, post disaster in ’05, after the earthquake, “How could we not be cool, God? I'm doing all this amazing stuff for You.” And I felt Him going, “Robby, stop. I don't need you to do anything for Me. I got this, and I'd rather you do nothing and be aware of My love for you for ten minutes a day than spend 15 hours doing all this stuff for Me.” And it started a process of realizing it's way easier for me to earn His love and favor and do for God than receive His love. And so that started a process that continued in counseling and at North Point of really understanding grace, the depth of my pride, and my wiring of trying to understand what He did and less what I try to do.

And so that's where I came across the Trueface guys. Some of their writings, The Cure, had a significant impact on my life around that area. And I think I sold enough books at North Point as I infused it into everything we did that I eventually got to know the guys and ended up at Trueface, with God having another thing in His mind for what He had for me to do. And it's been an amazing two years.

Al: Thanks, Robby.

Well, tell me, so summarize for me the Trueface ministry. What is it that you do?

Robby: Yeah. It's a 25-year message-based ministry, really focusing on leader development, not leadership development. The core of a leader, we know, is really rooted in our theology, how we view God, our narratives of God; and our identity, how we see ourselves. And so a lot of teaching, writing on identity, on grace, on how to create environments of trust in order to increase trust, which takes humility, and letting others love us and engaging. And so we are in a season where we are trying to take teachings that are foundational to us experiencing deeper relationships with God and others and help people apply those into relationships. So in one sentence, we help people experience deeper relationships with God and others by creating tools for them to apply truths in relationships with those in their churches, organizations, families, that kind of thing.

Al: So, yeah. Kind of reminds me of the words “we're human beings, not human doings.”

Robby: Yep.

Al: Yeah, okay.

Robby: I’d rather be doing than being. Every day, I get to remind myself of that truth.

Al: Yeah, okay. I understand that.

So, we're really looking forward to, in this podcast, hearing about your book, The Cure for Groups, and I'm particularly interested in how we're going to look at groups and particularly, as people on our podcast, we have leadership teams that we have, how can we make those more effective groups? So tell us what's behind the writing of this book?

Robby: I love what you just said. There's so many correlations between the groups that I've been in and the teams that I've led because it's a small group of people who are gathering together with intentionality and consistency for an objective outcome. Sometimes at work it’s to accomplish a goal. And in smaller groups, typically in parachurch or church organizations, it's to connect relationally and grow spiritually and mature in our journey together. But really, what led to the book is I have a deep passion and belief that God has designed us to grow through the context of relationships. But relationships that actually lead to growth are really hard to come by. So I want to do everything possible to make that easier for people. And a lot of times that is in marrying truths of where we get stuck in our leadership personally. And that's the narratives, the lives of our views of God, our self, which is the core of a leader. That's the 60 percent of any leader of a team, a leadership team, a small group, the core of a leader is found in his or her character, is in his or her integrity, which is rooted in their narratives of God and themselves. The 25 percent of the equation is, do they know how to lead? What are the best practices on leading a team, facilitating all the different best practices that you see in small groups and teams? And if we lined up a hundred executive teams or a hundred small groups, do we know the differentiators that lead to the healthy, unified teams and groups versus the ones that are eh or pretty lame? And so I have a passion to see groups thrive, because in so many churches and parachurches, groups are a primary way that we gather as Christians in smaller groups, three to 12 people, in order to connect relationally, to grow spiritually. That's a key part of our spiritual formation, discipleship models, and too often, they're pretty lame. And so I wrote it to try to help move the needle and have groups be more transformational.

Al: Yeah. Let’s stop lame groups, that’s for sure.

Robby: Come on, Al.

Al: Yeah, yeah.

So, our listeners are leaders of Christian-led organizations, they’re leaders in churches, they’re leaders in Christian nonprofits, they’re leaders in Christian-owned businesses, and we're all looking to build better teams in our organizations. But, you know, groups include people, and when people are together, things don't always go well. So, you know, let's start with a couple train-wreck experiences. What are some of the problems that keep groups from being successful?

Robby: Man, how much time you got? What we just talked about, if you look at different buckets of what leads to a successful team or group and a non-successful team or group, I think about 60 percent of the equation is found in the health of the leader. If there's a healthy leader, it leads to a healthy team, a healthy group. And about 25 percent of the equation is found in principles of leadership. You can have a healthy, amazing leader and they have no idea best practices, how to lead a team, encourage, engage. You leave those meetings going, “Why did we meet?” The leadership best practices. And about 15 percent of the equation are just the variables that we have very little control over. And so when I think of train wrecks, we typically think of the 60 percent, the core of the leader, of when someone's unhealthy, when they're looking for validation from team members or people in the group, that's a recipe for a train wreck. Or lack of confidentiality or when trust is broken in a small group, that happens in all kinds of ways but leads to the train wreck. So that's more around the core of the leader. An unhealthy leader is going to destroy a team because the team is not going to trust them. And if trust is broken, it's just a matter of pick your poison for the train wreck happening.

The other dynamic of the train wrecks I've seen are good-intentioned leaders who just don't have a structure or intentionality or a plan around how they are stewarding that role or responsibility. We lead in a way that is passive or resigned to the opportunity to lead with intentionality.

Al: Robby, this is fascinating. I've talked with a lot of leaders about leadership and how the only thing a leader can bring to a situation is themselves. And I love your percentages. So, you know, at Best Christian Workplaces, we’re all about data. But 60 percent, you're saying 60 percent is the character and maturity of the leader; 25 percent is kind of the competence of knowing how to lead, the best practices, you say. Can I ask you, where did those numbers come from?

Robby: I spent about seven years with a responsibility of stewarding and leading groups at a very large church. So over about 200 men's groups and then over about 800 to 1,000 groups. And so if that's a key area of spiritual formation, discipleship, do we know what the factors are that lead to thriving, not thriving? Do we even know what thriving looks like? How do we measure that? How do we know if it's working?

A quick way, and I work with a lot of churches in this space, and so I had a sample size that was pretty big.

Al: Yeah.

Robby: And so one of the quick assessments that I would do internally, which I haven't shared with a lot of people, is if I had a hundred small groups that I was responsible for, and my little brother moved into town and said, “Hey, I'm coming to the church. I want to grow and mature as a disciple follower of Jesus. What should I do?,” I would say, “Get into community. Intentional, consistent community with others to connect and grow.” And then he would say, “Okay. What group? Robby, you're in charge of groups. What group?” And if I lined up a hundred groups, my integrity, I would go, “Okay. How many of those groups would I recommend my brother, ‘Just get in that group, and it'll happen’?” That's a pretty quick indicator of how well we're doing at the efficacy of groups leading to spiritual growth. And that's a dynamic, difficult thing to measure, to understand. And so it was really in reverse engineering and studying, looking at groups, and digging into the dynamics of it, where I think that core of a leader really is the central component. So it was more of a gut percentage.

Al: Yeah, yeah. No question. Still, a majority is what you're saying—

Robby: That’s right.

Al: —at 60 percent. Yeah.

We've all heard, character’s at the core. I mean, that's the most important. Nobody's going to argue with that. So that's very helpful.

But tell us how The Cure for Groups will help us build fantastic teams. And that's a Best Christian Workplace term, fantastic teams, or as you call them, transformational groups. You mentioned five components that build transformational groups, so guide us on a journey with the five. What's the plan?

Robby: Just as a disclaimer, the five core components that differentiate great groups from mediocre groups or lame groups focuses in the space of the 25 percent. This book is capturing the best practices. If you lined up a hundred groups or a hundred teams, what were the leaders doing that, practically, around the area of the best practices, the 25 percent? So The Cure. I would read that for the 60 percent, that your relationship with God, your personal health, the majority. But for the 25 percent, again, it was written to help move the needle in that area of best practice, around five core components that I saw amazing leaders do. And it's through the metaphor of a ship analogy.

So, the first core component is choosing a destination. Determine the goals for your group, which all five of these, I believe, are parallel to best practices of leadership in leadership teams. If you don't know where you're going, you don't have a good shot of getting there. The second part is the captain. Other than the core, the character of the leader, of you, how do you lead with intentionality and vulnerability? Are you intentional to model vulnerability, to give permission to others to do the same, which is a key catalyst towards building an environment of trust in order to love each other and be trusted by each other? The third core component really is about the crew. If you're going on a ship, what's the culture of your crew? We all have a culture on all of our teams, in all of our small groups. But if you can clarify that culture, it adds direction, stability, and guardrails for each other when you start veering off. And, really, the crew is to prevent those train wrecks. And then, the ship—design your time for transformation. And the route—planning ahead to get to where you want to go. How are you forecasting the journey toward your destination with your ship, which is the structure of your meetings and how you function as a team to get there?

Al: So, Robby, wow. You've just outlined the five key parts: destination, captain, crew, ship, and route. And let's go back to the first one. I love this first component. We all know goals are important for any group. What's the key to developing a goal?

Robby: I think one of the keys is a parallel best practice is having the patience to let the members of the team speak into the direction and the destination and the goal. And we all know that, but we too often forget it because deadlines and we got stuff to do. But if people can't share their expectations and not feel heard, they're not going to weigh in, and they're not going to buy in if they don't weigh in. And too many times, at least, especially with me, we will rush and charge the hill, hoping that our team will follow us. But if our team, if we just slow down a little bit, invite their opinion, and they get to share their expectations and their hopes and they get to speak into the hill that we're about to charge, there's a lot better chance as we're charging that hill that they're going to be there with us.

Al: That’s really critical and true for any team. And asking people to participate and engage, is our term, that's key.

Well, then, we've got the second issue, and the component is the captain. We talk about, Best Christian Workplaces, inspirational leadership is a key component to engagement. Tell us about the captain. What's important here?

Robby: Yeah. As you just said, the captain is important because leadership is key. And really unpacking this, like, what are some practical things that we can do in leading our teams? I think I would like to encourage team leaders and small-group leaders of the importance of modeling vulnerability. This is often harder in workplace teams, to model vulnerability, but the power of your leadership and your opportunity to, in humility, trust those around you with areas of your life that you are not gaining from sharing with them, that invites them in to know you, to feel connected, and that is a key opportunity to build trust on a team. And we know the value of a high-trust culture and a team. The question—and we can describe high-trust teams, but it's hard to create that culture. And so a practical tool would be when was the last time as a leader you modeled vulnerability? Not transparency, which is kind of sharing something, but there's no cost to that. But really vulnerability, to invite them in, because when we're vulnerable, we give each other an opportunity to support us in our strengths and also to protect us in our weaknesses. Al, because if you know something I'm struggling with, I'm leaning into your strengths to protect me, to provide objectivity, to care for me, to be aware of what I'm going through, which is a key opportunity to build trust as a team.

Al: I trust you’re enjoying our podcast today. We’ll be right back after an important word for leaders.

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Al: And now, back to today’s special guest.

Yeah. That's a core. Thanks, Robby.

And now the third component. You know, now you're really getting at the heart of why we exist. So tell us about clarifying the group culture for the crew.

Robby: A lot of organizations I'm sure you work with, you know way more about the value of articulating cultural values, and the same is with a team, that values create guardrails to keep us healthy. I see values and making sure that you're aligned behind your values and your rules of engagement. We're going to adhere to confidentiality. We're not going to preach at each other. We're not going to teach at each other or try to fix each other. We're going to ask follow-up questions. Values, coupled with rules of operations, just provide guardrails for teams. And if you're on a journey together as a team and you're going to be together for a long time, every family, every team has a family system to it. Growing up, you had rules that were spoken and unspoken in your family system for how you engage with your parents and your siblings. So really, we all have family systems. Every team has family systems that are spoken or unspoken. My encouragement would be the amazing leaders that I saw would speak the family systems, the rules of operations, and it just helps provide that clarity and guardrails for a team.

Al: Yeah. So, values for the team. Speaking those and even reviewing those on a regular basis. Yeah, I like that idea.

And now we've got goals, a captain, and a crew. So what was next?

Robby: Next is the ship. So, you know, in a small group with a goal to connect relationally, to grow spiritually, that's a pretty massive goal. We all, when we want to look back at the end of our life, want to see relationships and healthy relationships in our wake. Same with leadership. Now, how to get there is not as easy. And so if we're meeting together for 60 or 90 minutes a week or every other week as a team or as a small group, how do you use that time, which is so important to the relationships, to the outcomes, to the destination, to how do you use that time? And all of us have been in meetings where we go, “What in the world? That was a waste of time.” And we have been in meetings that were amazing. And there are best practices for how you leverage that time. And so we took, actually, a lot of principles from the business world and incorporated those into small groups, because small groups, you show up and it’s like, “Hey, what are we going to talk about today?” And it either becomes supper club and you just kind of chat and then go home, or you study and you don't really apply it. What are systems of best practices?

And in my own team, this is a little bit of an aside, but I'm a huge EOS fan, entrepreneurial operating system. I had a buddy help me incorporate it into the church. And now Trueface uses that because it provides a handle and a best practice for a 90-minute meeting once a week. And we don't do that in small groups very well. In too many teams, we just kind of show up. But that's a very expensive meeting. When we get in a leadership-team meeting, those are very expensive when you look at the hourly cost and the people and what they're giving up. How do we make it worth our time?

And recently, our team at Trueface has been using this operating system called System & Soul. So we moved on from EOS to System & Soul, which provides the system, how you structure a 90-minute meeting, 90-day goals, one-year plan, that kind of thing, with the soul piece, the character, the values piece, as a framework and a handle to how we function as a team. And that's a Christian-led operating system, which I'll connect you, Al.

I think one of the biggest encouragements I would say is, man, if for the parachurch and church leaders listening to this, we miss out so much on the intentionality that we can learn from well-led teams. And I would hope we can catch up. And I think you agree, since that's the whole passion and calling of your life, that Christian workplaces are the best.

Al: So, that's interesting, Robby. We use the entrepreneur operating system as our method of—

Robby: Come on.

Al: —leadership here at the Best Christian Workplaces. Actually, we started just before COVID started. And yeah, we use the software that goes with it. I know there's a couple of different software programs—

Robby: Yeah.

Al: —but that's been very effective. And so I know there are a number of our podcast listeners that are using that system because it's being applied so much across the Christian nonprofit world and even in churches. So tell me what differentiates classic EOS and this System & Soul. I mean, obviously, there's the soul part.

Robby: Yep.

Al: How does that get incorporated? Tell our listeners.

Robby: I got to know the founder of System & Soul, who's a Jesus follower and an incredible entrepreneur who loves Jesus and wants to see organizations thrive. He was an implementer of EOS in his companies and also in general. And he felt a limitation. And there's the system side of EOS, which EOS is very strong in, that sometimes he would see an opportunity for disconnect between the values and culture and the health of the team, and infusing those together in a more holistic coaching relationship with small teams and organizations was an opportunity that he and some others started doing and leading. So we switched over to System & soul. And I'll connect you. A lot of similarities, just EOS just with some additional components.

Al: Right. We’ll include that in the show notes. Yeah, that's great. Okay. So thanks for that.

So, we've got the destination. We've got the captain and the crew. We now have a ship with an operating system. Of course, now we need to chart the course. So tell us about that fifth component in a little more detail.

Robby: Yeah. If you know where you're going, what are the steps to get there? How do you plot it out? And System & Soul provides that periodic execution milestones and steps to plot the course to where you're going. And if you think of a map, you can have a destination, but plotting your course as a small group. So we want to be this and that after a year together. Okay. Are you going to show up next week and go, “Oh, what do you want to do?” Or are you going to plan out four or five months at a time, put things on your calendars, organize studies that help you build upon, with intentionality, your spiritual formation journey? Are you going to do eight studies on the Holy Spirit, or are you going to do some on disciplines or the Gospel or loving others or serving? How do you plan out to get to where you want to go? And I think for a team, so many leaders have a strength with a certain way of doing things. That sales guy who is just sales, sales, sales. But as a team, if we get to weigh in to plotting the course of intentionality of how to accomplish that goal, and a lot of us as leaders are great at picking the destination and going, “That's where we're going.” And if we slow down enough to go, “Hey, can we spend 20 minutes talking about how we're actually going to get there, and what do I need to know that's going to be a roadblock? Or that hurricane's coming through. How do we plot around that course?” It's just a weigh in of the team to proactively evaluate and plot out the course that gets you to where you want to go to have better efficacy in that journey.

Al: That’s great. Too oftentimes, I’ll be the first to say, you get used to kind of going to your small group, and it just becomes a conversation piece. And without having a clear course, a direction, a route, as you say, then—

Robby: That's right.

Al: —you get waylaid.

Well, this has been fascinating. Give us a story of a group that's really seen transformation. Help us see these steps through the story of a group transformation. Where did it start, and how did it end up?

Robby: I think the powerful thing about creating a framework for a healthy group is that everybody steps into a team or into a group with various expectations. I might just want friendship. I want to get into scripture. I want to do this or that. And you've got—I think of a husband, that comes to mind now, who, he was dragged there by his wife. No way he wanted to engage relationally. He didn't have time. And you've got a couple things in that. Will he continue, and why? And if you engage that guy who does not want to be there and he's just watching the clock, until it’s a matter of time, so he has an excuse to stop coming, if you make him feel included and heard, that he's able to, in an environment of trust with some of these levels of intentionality, he might stick around. And if he sticks around and experiences love, that is one of our foremost desires as humans, to be loved, to be known, and to be loved. Getting over the excuses, the cost-benefit analysis, of all the ways that we stay too busy, we don't engage, we don't trust somebody, we've got shame, if we can create an environment that is a high-trust environment, which these best practices and core components really just create a high-trust environment, an environment of grace, then we have the chance to walk alongside each other. And in that walking pace in doing life, the transformation that can happen, I mean, the ahas that happen because people stick with it and say, “This is one of the most important things I'm doing with my time,” the freedom, the marriages that are saved, the lives that are transformed. It breaks my heart when people bail out because of the lack of clarity and leadership on the front side and the lack of intentionality because groups are lame in an ongoing way, because you don't have a foundation of why you're meeting, how you're going to meet, and what you're doing, and so all of us are busy, smart people, and the opportunity cost of is it worth 60 or 90 minutes once a week or every other week, it has to be valuable. So how to make that valuable in the things that matter most is just where I come alive, to go, “Man, we have too many groups that we are treating as an afterthought and missing the potential of the life change that happens when we connect relationally,” because God's designed us to connect. He's relational with nature. He's designed all of us to experience deep relationships in order to grow. And we could do another podcast on, really, what that looks like and the fruit of it.

Al: Well, thanks, Robby. I've really enjoyed all that we've learned in this podcast. This has been great. And particularly, I love your goal of let's create high-trust environments, high-trust groups, and we bring our own character to a group. But then there's much more than the character, and those are the practices that lead to good, functional groups. And you've really outlined five great steps to create really high-trust groups. And each group needs a destination, a leader or a captain, a crew that follow the cultural values that you develop, clearly a process or a ship, a vehicle, in which you're going to use to get to where you want to go, and then following a route of how you're going to get there. So I love the idea. I love the conversation around the ship and the operating system, whether it's EOS. I appreciate the introduction to System & Soul. I think our leaders would be interested in checking that out. So this has been a great conversation.

Where can people find your book or get in touch with you?

Robby: Yeah. Trueface.org is the best. You could listen to the Trueface podcast. You can buy The Cure for Groups on Amazon or the website. Embark. If you want to kick-start your group around these principles or reignite your group, you can use Embark. That's on RightNow Media and some other platforms. So that's probably the best way, just trueface.org.

Al: And Embark. E-m-b-a-r-k.

Robby: Yep. That’s the six-week small-group study guide to apply the principles or The Cure for Groups. The Cure for Groups is more of a book to equip leaders to know how to lead more effective groups. And Embark is the study for a group to go through, applying those principles.

Al: Okay, great. Thanks.

And to conclude our discussion, Robby, how about one thing, one kind of bottom line, that you'd like to leave with our listeners about getting started?

Robby: I'll throw a curveball because this quote has rocked me, and it's from Dallas Willard, so I might as well drop a Dallas Willard at the end. He might be a little smarter than us. But John Ortberg asked Dallas Willard, “I want to have an impact. I want to have more impact, Kingdom impact. What should I do? Coach me.” And Dallas said this. He said, “You must arrange your life so that you experience deep joy, contentment, and confidence in your everyday life with God, period.” That Robby, I, no matter what else I do, that I experience deep joy, contentment, and confidence in my everyday life with God and arrange my life for that. The details, our teams, our organizations will take care of themselves. That gets us back to the 60 percent. And that is connected to this because there's no way—I think one of the greatest variables of men and women that stay the course and finish well is if they are intentional and consistent and fully known by a few others around them. Because I'm so tired of seeing leaders, which is so lonely and isolating, Christian leaders and ministry leaders, there's a lot of correlations. It's a lonely, isolating deal, and if we don't proactively pursue authentic relationships, a small group, at least a plus-one other person that knows our last 10 percent, who can give objectivity and protection to us, we get isolated and we get taken out. And that's a heart of mine that I hope these tools will help us not get isolated and taken out in order to work on ourselves, as Dallas said, enjoy our Father's love, and He'll take care of the rest.

Al: Robby Angle, president of Trueface, hey, thanks so much for your contributions today. And most of all, I appreciate your devotion and service to our loving God. It was very clear. And thanks for your leadership in the Kingdom. So thanks for taking your time today to share with us and to speak into the lives of so many who are listening. Thanks, Robby.

Robby: Thanks, Al. See you.

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