Transcript: The Role of Praying Leaders in Unlocking Miraculous Outcomes // Peter Greer, HOPE International

Flourishing Culture Leadership Podcast

“The Role of Praying Leaders in Unlocking Miraculous Outcomes“

April 1, 2024

Peter Greer

Intro: What is the role of prayer in your life and the life of your ministry? Well, as Christians, we'd all say prayer is important, but does a commitment to prayer infuse your life as a leader? Well, today on the Flourishing Culture Leadership Podcast, we'll look at the qualities of a praying leader and how we can create a culture of prayer in our own organizations that we lead. So, listen in and receive God's invitation to sit in His presence in prayer.

Welcome: Welcome to the Flourishing Culture Leadership Podcast, your home for open, honest, and insightful conversations to help develop your leadership, your team, and build a flourishing workplace culture.

Al Lopus: Hello, I'm Al Lopus, the co-founder of the Best Christian Workplaces and author of the book Road to Flourishing: Eight Keys to Boost Employee Engagement and Well-Being. I'm passionate about helping Christian leaders like you create engaged, flourishing workplaces everywhere.

So, what makes this podcast unique is our interviews with top leaders of Christian-led organizations with healthy, if not flourishing, workplace cultures. Well, today is no exception, and I'm delighted to welcome Peter Greer to the podcast. Peter's the president of HOPE International, a flourishing certified best Christian workplace, and he's a prolific writer. His recent book is Lead with Prayer, and I love this book because it gets at the method that can transform the most significant aspect of workplace culture, and that's the leader's character.

Throughout our conversation, you'll hear Peter Greer talk about a story about how prayer transformed a very difficult ministry situation, how there's a gap oftentimes between what we say about prayer and what we actually do, specific prayer practices that you might consider for yourself and your organization, and how as a leader, how can you create a culture of prayer in your organization?

I think you're going to love this interview with Peter Greer. But before we dive in, this episode is brought to you by the Best Christian Workplaces’ Employee Engagement Survey. You can sign up today and discover the health of your organization's culture. And now is a wonderful time to listen to your employees with the easy-to-administer online Engagement Survey by going to workplaces.org. Being a certified best Christian workplace improves your ability to attract more talented employees and keep them longer.

And hello to our new listeners, and thanks for joining us as we honor your investment of this time by creating valuable episodes like this.

So, let me tell you a little bit more about Peter Greer before we get started. Peter's the president and CEO of HOPE International, a global Christ-centered economic-development organization serving throughout Africa, Asia, Latin America, Eastern Europe, and around the world. Under Peter's leadership, HOPE has expanded from working in just two to over 20 different countries, and they're now serving 2.5 million families. Prior to joining HOPE, Peter worked in Cambodia, Zimbabwe, and Rwanda. And he's now coauthored 15 different books, and his most recent book is Lead with Prayer: The Spiritual Habits of World-Changing Leaders.

So, here’s my interview with Peter Greer.

Peter, it's great to have you back on the podcast. I'm looking forward to our conversation today.

Peter Greer: Thanks for having me, Al. I always enjoy the conversation with you.

Al: Well, Peter, you've written a new book along with Ryan Skoog and another friend, Cameron Doolittle, and the title is Lead with Prayer: The Spiritual Habits of World-Changing Leaders. And you did quite a bit of research, surveying leaders and talking to leaders around the world to identify the characteristics of a praying leader, which I, really so many of us, need to learn more about this. So, let’s start with an inspiring story about a leader who models this. Tell us about Christine Baingana. You know, Christine is a leader of a microfinance bank in Rwanda and was experiencing significant challenges. How did leading with prayer turn around the situation of this bank? And tell us a little more about her role and especially within the HOPE International network.

Peter: Yeah. Thanks, Al. And there is no question that the highlight of the book-writing process was not actually the book launch. It was not thinking about the different titles and all of that. The real highlight was having conversations with leaders around the world who led with prayer, and Christine was one of them, a remarkable leader. And I think her story is really a story that answers the question, what do we do when we don't know what to do? And I think for entrepreneurs, for leaders, the tendency in those moments is to say, “Let's figure it out. Let's get the whiteboards out. Let's figure out the strategy. Let’s figure out the approach,” and Christine had a different approach. And it wasn't actually Christine coming up with this in her own strength, but in a time of significant crisis, when it felt like the world was falling apart and there were challenge after challenge, it was actually a group of her colleagues at Urwego that came to her and said, “This is a time to prayer.” She said, “This is a time when we have to realize that this situation is beyond our ability to control or figure out. So let's dedicate time in prayer,” and that's exactly what they did. And so they spent hours praying together as a leadership team and then involving branch office by branch office. And it really was an incredible story of not just a little turnaround, a dramatic turnaround. And more than that, it was a story of peace in the midst of the storm. So even before the prayers were answered, even before there was resolution to the greater challenges, there was a sense of peace and presence.

And I think with that, it's so interesting, I think, that Christine would say that she experienced what Psalm 23 writes about: this idea that it starts out “The Lord is my shepherd.” But if you look at that, Al, it’s the craziest thing. About halfway through Psalm 23, it switches from saying “The Lord” to “You,” and that happens in the valley. That happens in the moment of greatest challenge. And that's when it switches from “The Lord” to “You.” And I think that's exactly what Christine would say.

Crazy thing with her story is not long after this, she was recognized as one of the best female bankers in all of Africa. And she is very quick to say, “I want to tell you. I want to tell you what is behind my leadership, and I want to tell you about the God that I serve and the moment that Jesus rescued us from some pretty incredible challenges.”

So, what do we do when we don't know what to do? We can try to figure it out, or we can see that as a divine invitation to come and seek the Lord.

Al: And this was, what?, during COVID? When was it that she got involved with this? Yeah.

Peter: Yeah. So, she had been leading for several years before that, but that's when the wheels came off the bus. There were lockdowns, government. There were significant challenges. And Christine and Urwego Bank serve individuals that are on the margins, in places of financial poverty, and they were the ones that were hit the hardest by the pandemic. So, the question is, what do you do when you are serving a target population that goes through an incredible set of challenges? And then, looking back, it's a story of incredible—God's provision, God's wisdom, and some decisions that were made as a direct result of time spent in prayer shaped the trajectory of that organization and created so much more credibility in the eyes of those that they serve.

So, just, yeah, true sense of God's providence. And I guess the peace, Al, that that promises, is it only in moments of that level of desperation that we see the gift and benefit of prayer? What would happen if we would prioritize that same spirit of prayer, even when we're not going through that same type of valley? And that is really what we are trying to do. What would it look like if that were our first response, not our last response? What would happen if that were our initial response? Before all the decisions, before all of the plans that we have, what if we would actively route ourselves in a posture of prayer?

Al: Yeah. And I might be the one that says, “Well, I want to figure it out,” rather than, as you say, “Let's ask God first.” You know, let's let that be our first reaction. Well, that’s a great model of prayer, leading people and getting on their knees in prayer.

So, the idea as Christians, we're called to pray, and we need to pray, and it's obvious, and it's fundamental. But when you were doing this research, what were some of the surprises that you found as you and your team were working on this? You know, what did you uncover about the prayer life of leaders, and do leaders have a prayer problem?

Peter: One of the reasons why we wrote the book was that there was a large study that was commissioned by a foundation, and it tried to find the prayer practices of organizations and what they do to practice prayer. And the person who commissioned the study read the results and said, “This is the most disturbing report I've ever read.” And the results were—and this has been proven in a variety of different studies—that most of the time, there is a disconnect, there is a gap between what we say about prayer and what we actually do. And this is not necessarily, Al, just looking at the research; I would say that was true in my own life. What I said about prayer and the organizational cultures, the way that we prioritize that, there was a gap. And so, in writing this book and beyond that, we've been on a journey to say, how do we close that gap? How do we narrow that gap? And what we found from listening to leaders around the world is that prayer didn't just happen; there was a plan. There was a belief that it mattered, and then there was time and space and money that was put behind it of saying, “If we say this matters, let's remove the barriers. Let's have it as a line item on our budget. Let's make sure there is a time that we are paying staff to gather together in prayer. And it's a first priority, not a last resort.”

And that has just been such an incredible journey for me personally in my prayer life with HOPE International, and then also organizationally, to learn with and from some global leaders and to change the way that we pray as an organization. And I think the great journey has been this is not drudgery. When you have more time and more tools and more space, I have found a new level of delight, Al, in this incredible gift that we are given.

So, I don’t know. Maybe the shortest answer is the disciples came to Jesus and said, “Lord, teach us to pray.” And that's exactly what we try to do, looking at the prayer practices of Jesus and the prayer practices of leaders around the world and say, “Global church, teach us to pray.” And then, also, a fascinating exploration—Cameron did so much research—looking at, what are the prayer practices of Jesus, and what does that look like today as well?

Al: Well, you might be interested, Peter, 20 years ago, when I started the Best Christian Workplaces, we actually had a question in our Survey, and it was, I'm satisfied with the level of prayer in my organization. And we don't ask that question anymore because there is no correlation between that and organizational health, at least there wasn't when we took it out probably 15, 16 years ago. And I remember talking to a leader of a well-known Christian ministry, and he said, “Oh, we have the policy of ‘Pray on your own time, come to work prayed up, and we want you just to work while you're here.’” And I don't know if there's any listening to this podcast that they might relate to that, but I think what you're saying is that no, we need to be investing in time of prayer. And that's going to make a big difference, isn't it?

Peter: Oh, wow. Al, that's a really interesting statement to unpack a little bit more and maybe a little bit of, what is the work that we are doing? And I guess the other thing that we heard is that to me has a little bit of a bifurcation of the prayer happens before, and then we do the real work. And I just don't necessarily think that is accurate, true, and I think it misses out on this beautiful gift of corporate prayer. And, yeah, if anything, doing the research, I am more inspired, I am much more inspired to say, “What would it look like for us to engage in this corporate practice of prayer together, something beautiful and powerful about coming together to pray?”

Yeah. And I guess the other thing that it does look like, if you look at the example of Jesus and the example of the church, that prayer was woven into the habits. And I guess that was the other piece. There's that little book by Brother Lawrence, Practicing the Presence, and that's been another thing. What would it look like if we had a posture of prayer as we are going about our work? and it was not just, “Do it and then get to the work,” but what if it was much more of an integrated life of prayer, being as we are working? And again, the Brother Lawrence example of as he's doing dishes, as he is doing the daily routines, to have the presence of God, to have a conversation. Had one individual say, “It's almost like a conversation with Jesus, that I just never hang up. It's a conversation, and the line is still open.”

And yeah, I just personally, I know the benefit it's been to say, let's have much more of a practicing-the-presence approach. Let's have prayer integrated into everything that we do in the day to day and believe that in those moments there, yeah, not one and done, but let's have much more integration between our prayer life and the work that we do as we are doing it, to do it within a posture of praying. As it says, like, never stop praying. Pray without ceasing. We’re trying to figure out what that looks like in an organizational context.

Al: Well, let's talk about it because your book covers a variety of prayer practices, and all of which are deepening our practice in our prayer lives. And you talk about time and prayer, and covering two aspects, fixed times of prayer as well as continuous prayer. You've just mentioned continuous prayer, which is a very important spiritual discipline. So, our listeners are leaders in Christian organizations, churches, schools, and businesses. And almost by definition, leaders are busy people. You know, we both know that. So, it seems like deep prayer life does take time. So how do you see that play out in the lives of leaders that you talked with in your research? How does someone move from being a leader who prays to become a praying leader, someone for whom prayer is a deep part of even their Christian identity?

Peter: Al, I feel like what you said is one of the biggest barriers to prayer. There is more to do than time to do it. We all feel that. And so, if there is not clarity that prayer matters, we're going to push it to when we have time. And you know, when we have time, Al? Never. We're never going to have those moments. And that's what we heard from these leaders that had a different posture and approach is no, they said it mattered so let's build our calendar around that, around prayer. And that's where those fixed-hour times are so important.

And I remember early on, I went to visit International Justice Mission. And you could say they don't have spare time. They're trying to end human trafficking. That's a full-time job. But they believe that prayer matters, and they believe so much that they budget a time at the beginning of the day for individual prayer and reflection and then corporate prayer. And again, it’s not like they are doing that because they have nothing else to do; they're doing it because they believe that it matters.

And for anyone that feels like they are really busy and don't have time for prayer, I think the example it's actually not IJM, but I think the example is Jesus. And as we see, if you think someone who had more to do than time to do it, we read about lines of people waiting to be healed. So I might have an email inbox that's full, but that is not as significant a constraint to my time as people in line waiting to experience healing. And yet, as we read about the life in Jesus, even as ministry continued, there are more, not less, instances where he would retreat to have time in prayer, including the night before he went to the cross. You think about the clock being on. There are limited hours left. What did Jesus prioritize? He wanted to be with a few friends, and He wanted to pray. And I think for all of us, if we are not having time for prayer, the question is, do we think we're busier than Jesus? Do we think that we need prayer less than Jesus needed it? And I think that can kind of reframe, I know, my own heart of saying if Jesus needed it, I know I need it, and there certainly is time and space for what we value. And we just want to say we value it enough to make sure it's on our calendar.

Al: Yeah. It's almost like saying, back to your earlier comment, do we want to feel more anxious, or do we want to feel more peace? And I know which of those two I prefer. Yeah.

So, Peter, there's many aspects of prayer that you cover, including praying through tough times, you know, scripture, listening to God, repenting, fasting, and even more. Are there one or two aspects of prayer that you would want to highlight for us? Is there a prayer practice that we tend to neglect that we should really participate in that would make a big difference in those that we work with, you know, or those that that are listening to us? You know, what would you say to a listener who wants to start with one specific change in their prayer life?

Peter: Yeah. So working on the book with Ryan Skoog and Cameron Doolittle and Jill Heisey, the benefit of this, Al, is we were hearing consistent themes across cultures and across different types of organizations—secular, Christian, for profit, nonprofit—across a variety of different geographies, different continents, and what we heard is surprisingly consistent prayer practices. There are things that individuals did, and regardless of context. And then we started doing the historical research and finding these have been hallmarks of followers of Jesus from the time of Jesus until today. And as we started doing this research, this was not just a project to be done, but we started engaging in these practices ourselves and starting to live them out. And what would it look like if we, when we'd find a new way of prayer, we would try it out, and we would do it together? And that was really the dynamic aspect of it.

So, I guess the maybe this is not a direct answer, Al, but the thing that came to mind is we're invited to pray with all kinds of different prayers. And so experiment, try a variety of forms. And my guess is some of those, you might experience a different level of intimacy in prayer than ever before.

I remember the first time, when we had an interview with someone, Justin Whitmel Earley, and he started every day, and he said, “There's something that happens when I am physically on my knees. There's something that happens to my heart posture and my attentiveness, almost as if my body is saying, ‘What am I doing on the cold floor? What's going on?’” And so we tried to emulate that practice, and it does make a difference, Al. Not that it's form, not that it's obviously all about the heart, but the body posture helps in that. So that's just one real simple example.

All of us created a rule of life, a simple plan, essentially, for how we want to practice prayer on a daily, weekly, and annual basis. And I had never done retreat for prayer. That was not something I did. That was not something we did as a leadership team. We would start our retreat in prayer, and then we’d get into the real work. And for the first time we said, “No, the work is going to be seeking the Lord together, praying together, and listening.” That is not something we had ever done before, and I think every single one of us that participated in that would say there was something special that happened over that weekend that had not happened in other ones.

So, I feel like as I'm sharing this, Al, I am still so much on the journey, but it was just a gift to be exposed to a much wider variety of types of prayers, of postures of prayer, of different ways of experimenting with liturgy and sometimes with different modes, and to realize there are some of those practices that I think I'm going to try and emulate for the rest of my life that have been expanding my understanding, my practice of this gift of prayer.

Al: My knees are hurting already just thinking about it, Peter, so… My torn right lateral meniscus. So you're encouraging me to get on my knees and pray. Yeah. Well, that’s fascinating. I’ll do it, just as a result of our conversation.

I trust you’re enjoying our podcast today. We’ll be right back after an important word for leaders.

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Al: Welcome back to my conversation with Peter Greer.

I know I listen to a pastor who says the first thing he does every morning is he slips out of bed and gets on his knees to pray for the day. And I think that’s great. You know, as I read your comments and thinking about the rule of life, I'd encourage our listeners, think about this rule-of-life idea. You know, go to AI and say, “I'm a devoted follower of Christ. And what should my rule of life look like?” And the response, the idea of having an annual retreat, quarterly prayer day, you know, as well as a time every day of really devoted prayer, journaling, and meditation, yeah, these are all things that you're highlighting in the book, just something for all of us.

And as you know, after our years of working together, Peter, the Best Christian Workplaces is focused on how leaders can create a flourishing workplace culture. And I'm convinced more and more that it starts with prayer. And so much of a culture is built on the leader’s Christian character and being able to demonstrate the fruit of the spirit, humility. You know, how do those things come about? I believe it starts in prayer. So, after you've explored the qualities of a praying leader, the final section of the book talks about how leaders can multiply prayer throughout their organization and create a culture of prayer. So tell us about how you observed a culture of prayer. And in the book you talk about how you visited the International Justice Mission office and learned about their prayer practices. So, what are some of the specific steps that leaders can take to unleash this idea, this culture of prayer?

Peter: Yeah. In the book, we tell the story of David Denmark, and he has this great line where he says, “I learned it was impossible to multiply by zero.” And in that he was talking about the fact that he had tried to create a prayer culture within the organization that he was leading and broader sector, and he was really struck by this aspect of he was trying to create a culture of prayer without first becoming a leader who practices prayer. And so, it was as if there was this heart work that he had to do first of, I want to learn what this looks like in my own life and then to roll it out. And that is definitely the intentional way that the book is structured as well, for all of us to say, how can we experience this first, and then how can we figure out how to join in others? But a lot of the principles are the same, Al. Just as it is with your own life to have that rule of life, then you look at the organizational practices, and it's to create that same plan. What are you going to do, with whom, what frequency, what location? How are you going to engage in prayer?

And I think this is where there's one other thing that we've experimented with, with HOPE International, was to truly take it seriously, that we value individuals that financially support HOPE International, and we sure value people that pray with us. So much more focus on what are we doing to equip those that are on our prayer team to pray, and then also to have these gatherings internally, but then also externally, and to pray together as the global team and to hear updates and then engage in prayer together? And those are so special. I was in one of those last week with a number of our supporters that have been journeying with us and to pray together with them and with the colleagues at HOPE International. It's beautiful, it's special, and it brings us closer to the heart of Christ, and it brings us closer to each other in the journey, too, which is just an incredibly special gift.

So that's just one, but a lot of it comes down to this: let's create the plan. If we believe it matters, let's learn how to be on the journey in our own lives, and then let's figure out the organizational postures to do that together. And again, just great joy in the journey, for sure.

Al: Remind us again of, at IJM, what did you see there?

Peter: Yeah. So that was the starting the day with individual prayer and reflection and then also having the corporate time and then also having time where they invite supporters in for a prayer gathering where that's the primary work. And so again, just, yeah, really, those are some of the elements, copying and pasting that directly from them into the prayer practices of HOPE International. It's, yeah. And they're so open handed, willing to share their story. But Gary Haugen is a leader who has the courage to say, “This matters. Prayer matters in the work that we do so much that we're going to allocate time.” And when we did the research for the book, if you look at the number of hours that staff spend praying, it is over a $4 million investment of time. And for those in the legal field, they're used to billable hours. So their billable hours are over $4 million because they say prayer matters.

Al: Yeah. Wow. And then you've started prayer days at HOPE. Is that right?

Peter: Yeah, we sure have.

Al: Yeah. Okay. And how often do you have those, Peter?

Peter: So we do those quarterly.

Al: Yeah. Wow. That's fantastic.

So, well, share with us some of your own journey. You know, it's one thing to—well, you've already pointed out, you know, you can't multiply by zero. So, okay, I'll put you on the hot seat, Peter. Let's talk about your own prayer journey. I imagine writing the book helped you kind of get a perspective, maybe do some different things. You know, how have you grown as a praying leader? And how do you see the impact of the culture of the prayer of HOPE as a result?

Peter: Yeah. And maybe I find it easier to, I guess, as the Apostle Paul wrote, boast in my weaknesses. Still so early on the journey, Al, of living this out, and thankful for so much grace in the journey as well. So super thankful for that. But yeah, just in my own journey, again, I had never had a prayer plan. I am a leader who loves to think about strategy and vision and organizational culture. Al, how many conversations have we had about the different aspects? And I don't know in any of our other conversations, Al, if I've ever mentioned prayer. And I think that was a huge blind spot in my own life, and almost the question of, why in the world would I be trying to lead in my own strength? If I believe the God of the universe wants to be involved and is active, and why in the world would I try to do this work on my own? And I think I underestimated the importance of prayer in shaping my own heart, my own thoughts, as well as the organizational practices. We have been on a journey to grow, and I am so grateful for other leaders at HOPE that were way further ahead than I am about the importance of prayer. But it really was looking at this book and being struck that if our leadership books and our prayer books don't overlap, we're missing out, missing out big time. And so that’s really what we're trying to do, is, what is a prayerful approach to leadership and organizational culture that might just lead to a journey of much more peace, much more understanding of the presence of God in our work, and just maybe ears to hear a little bit more about more of what God might want to do in us and through us? So yeah, that's the journey.

Al: I know in my own prayer life, Peter, there's many times where I just feel completely in the center of God's will, and then there are times where I don't feel that, and I'm thinking I'm probably missing something, so let me get back to that. So, but the presence, the peace that you've described that comes from knowing that you're in center of God's will, and that only comes through prayer, for sure.

Well, we started our conversation with an inspirational story of a praying leader in Rwanda. And in the book, there's a number of examples of praying leaders here in the U.S., and several points were made throughout the book where it seemed that great prayer warriors are in non-Western settings, in the global church, and they've got vibrant prayer lives. So maybe we're missing something here in the Western culture. What have you learned from Christian leaders, prayer warriors in other countries?

Peter: Yeah, Al. So this is an area I'm convinced that we have so much to learn from the global church. On Friday, I'm headed to the Philippines, and I am going to be with friends and partners of HOPE, dear, dear colleagues, and I know what's going to happen. They have something called dawn watch, where before the sun comes up, there are these small bamboo mats, and the team gathers and starts the day in prayer. And I am going to be jet-lagging, and I am so looking forward, though, to being with my colleagues and starting the day in prayer. And I think we have so much to learn from our global brothers and sisters about prioritizing prayer.

You know, it's interesting we didn't start out to write a chapter on kind of fasting and retreat, but that is just commonplace for the global church. And it was not commonplace in my life and in my leadership practice. And so we have been stretched, challenged, encouraged by global leaders to take steps in deepening that. And I think we have the opportunity to be mentored.

But just as you said, Al, that does not mean that there are not incredible leaders in closer geographic proximity. And for me, one of those moments, Joni Eareckson Tada, that was a highlight interview, Al. She is a woman of prayer, who leads with prayer, and has had incredible physical challenges, lives with incredible chronic pain. But she actually believes that it is better to experience that physical pain with a closeness to Jesus than if she would have the opposite. If she could be healed but lose that intimacy, she says, “There's no way I would take that deal.” And she still prays for healing, but more than that, she prays for that presence of God to be experienced.

So again, certainly so much to learn from the global church. But there are some incredible praying leaders in closer geographic proximity as well. And yeah, that was the gift of writing this book. And I hope it's the gift for those that read the book, of really hearing some of these stories, learning the prayer practices of these remarkable leaders.

Al: Yeah, yeah. Well, I have great regard as well, as you do, Peter, for Joni and her ministry, and again, her own personal spiritual practices, considering the challenges that she's had to overcome. That’s amazing.

Well, Peter, we've learned so much from our conversation. This has just been a great conversation and one that's inspiring me to continue to even build into my own rule of life and my own prayer practice, and I believe, and start the year off with a spiritual retreat and do some planning for the year and quarterly prayer days, spiritual days, I call them, and it's clearly having great devotions. But this has just been great.

I think back of when we started the conversation, you know, when we face a challenge, we try to figure it out, or maybe we should just go ask God, and let's begin and have a life of prayer where we're actually praying throughout the day. And how we need to close the gap, you know, of what we say about prayer, especially in our Christian ministries, and what we actually do. So, let's close that gap as Christian-ministry leaders. And continue to build our calendar around prayer, to incorporate prayer in our work in Christian ministries, and to practice, as you pointed out, the Jesus’ personal practice around prayer. To create—I love the culture of prayer in our organizations. Do we have a culture of prayer? Can we multiply, based on our own prayer practices, the practice of prayer in our organization? Or are we starting with zero, and we can't multiply from there? Great, great insights. And again, just the sense of feeling in the center of God's will and how having that sense of presence and peace is so much better than having a sense of anxiety and uncertainty. Yeah. So just great information, Peter. Thanks.

What would you like to add to the conversation we've had so far based on what we've said?

Peter: Yeah. Maybe just if you don't know where to start, I think start with that same question that the disciples asked Jesus, of Lord, teach us to pray. And I think that's the posture.

And then if there's anything that we can do to try to help, we tried to make this not just a book to be read, but there's a bunch of tools at leadwithprayer.com. One of my favorite things that's there are these simple prayer cards. If you don't know where to start, just go through these prayer cards. And they're intentionally low tech on that, the ability to go through and have some guided prayers and prompts of prayer. So I personally found those really helpful to go through.

And then there also is an app. We partnered with the Echo Prayer app. And there is a tool. You can find more information, again, at leadwithprayer. But it's a simple way of inviting others into the prayer process with you as well.

So again, the goal is not a book to be read, stories to be heard, but it's prayers to be practiced. And everything that we thought to make available is at leadwithprayer.com. But hopefully, it equips you to take steps this year in growing in your own prayer life and then creating cultures of prayer in the organizations. So, so much joy, so much delight I've experienced to be on this prayer journey.

Al: Yeah. Great. Well, that's great information for all of us. Peter, thanks so much for your contribution today. Most of all, I appreciate your commitment to being a praying leader and also calling other Christian leaders, each of us, to pray and have a greater impact and influence as a result. So, thanks for taking your time out to speaking in the lives of so many listeners.

Peter: Thank you, Al. So much appreciation, respect for you.

Al: Well, thanks so much for listening to my conversation with Peter. I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did.

And you can always find ways to connect with him and links to everything we discussed in the show notes and transcript at workplaces.org/podcast.

And if you have any suggestions for me about our podcast or have any questions on a flourishing workplace culture, email me, al@workplaces.org.

And leaders, if you want to improve your leadership, expand your organization's impact for good, and see greater faithfulness in our broader culture, help us achieve our goal to see more flourishing Christian-led workplaces. To help, please share this podcast with another leader or launch a project in your own organization to discover and improve the health of your workplace culture. Measure and improve. And if you're interested in learning more, go to workplaces.org to request a sample report.

Outro: The Flourishing Culture Leadership Podcast is sponsored by Best Christian Workplaces. If you need support building a flourishing workplace culture, please visit workplaces.org for more information.

We'll see you again next week for more valuable content to help you develop strong leaders and build a flourishing workplace culture.

Al: And next, you're going to love my conversation with Sadie Elliott of the Herzog Foundation and BCW’s own Doug Waldo about the work they're doing to build the capacity of Christian schools across the United States.