Transcript: Skills Relational Leaders Use to Build Trust // Boyd Bailey

The Flourishing Culture Podcast Series

“Skills Relational Leaders Use to Build Trust“

September 28, 2020

Boyd Bailey

Intro: Do you wonder, how do I build a culture of trust in my department or organization? Listen in is author Boyd Bailey describes the essential habits of relational leaders.

Al Lopus: Welcome to another episode of the Flourishing Culture Podcast, where our goal is to equip and inspire you to build a flourishing workplace. As we all face today's leadership challenges as a result of the COVID-19 pandemic, we believe having a healthy culture is more important now than ever before. We are here to help you eliminate toxicity, improve your employees’ engagement, speed up new innovation, and grow your organization's impact.

And before we meet our guest today, I urge you to subscribe to this podcast. As a result, you’ll receive our action guide. It’s our gift to help you lead your organization’s culture to the next level. To subscribe, simply go to bcwinstitute.org/podcast. Hit the Subscribe button, and receive our free action guide.

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And now, let's meet today's special guest.

Thanks for joining us. It gives me great pleasure to welcome Boyd Bailey, the author of Essential Habits of Relational Leaders: Building a Culture of Trust. And as you know, at the Best Christian Workplaces, trust is really a foundational element in our relationship with others. Well, Boyd has great experience. He is the president of the Georgia chapter of the National Christian Foundation, and a founder of Wisdom Hunters, a ministry whose daily devotional emails help more than 100,000 readers connect-with Christ. He's also the co-founder of Ministry Ventures, which has coached more than 1,000 faith based nonprofits in board development, administration, fundraising, and more.

Boyd, welcome to the Flourishing Culture Podcast.

Boyd Bailey: Thank you, Al. What an honor to be with you today.

Al: I'm really looking forward to our conversation, and just been great getting to know you a little bit.

So I can easily imagine your book Essential Habits of Relational Leaders as a fruit-bearing tree for every reader. And what would you say was a truth, something that enables you to see growth and maybe even flourishing in every leader?

Boyd: Al, I love your image of fruit bearing. My wife and I read and talk about this a lot, that we’re planting trees for our children and for the people that we love and the people we work with. And I think this idea, this sentence kind of sums up this fruit-bearing idea, and that is that the quality of our life is determined by the quality of our relationships. So beginning with God, that relationship, and, of course, reaching out to other people. And so we've really tried to be intentional over these 30 or 40 years to really focus on and invest in relationships, whether it's relationships at home or at work or in our community.

Al: Now, in the preface of your book, you write “a relational leader is a leader who values relationships because humans are created in God's image.” We all have images of relationships and maybe patterns in our mind of good relationships, but what person from your youth really modeled those words and influenced you and your life and helped you kind of see that truth?

Boyd: You know, when I was 15, I was an insecure, somewhat rebellious young man. My dad was not in the home, but my neighbor, Bob McDonnell, took an interest in me and maybe saw some potential, and he allowed me—kind of like Jesus—to hang out with him. And so his wife was a great cook, and he would have these lavish meals, and then we would actually go out and work together. I learned how to sweat, and kind of an honest day's work is what he taught me, and he taught me about character as well. And then, he decided to move back to another state where he’d grown up, and he actually sold me his little service business. And this man gave me confidence. He gave me security. He gave me encouragement. He modeled Christ. And I was not a Christian at the time, but it helped me to see what the love of God looked like, and it was really, really foundational. You talk about a seed that fell on good soil, Bob McDonnell's investment in me those few years as a neighbor, I'll never forget.

Al: Wow. Boy, that’s a great story and I think one that we all can relate with and maybe even think about how we might be that person to somebody else.

I'm immediately drawn to chapter one. The title is “Grow Relational Capacity.” And as leaders, we're all about growing capacity, but relational capacity, that's really interesting. So to grow relational capacity, what is relational capacity, as you think about it?

Boyd: I think the short answer is really our ability to be loved, to love others, when Jesus gave us the greatest command to love God with our heart, mind, and soul. And I think sometimes as a leader, I run past that. I get in a hurry. I think I have to get the results. I need to make things happen. And even more than faith, I think the scripture is clear about this, that love really trumps everything. And so my relational capacity will be determined by the way that I'm willing to open up and be vulnerable and be loved by my heavenly Father, to be loved by others.

I was reading just recently where Paul was quoting Jesus. You know this famous passage in First Corinthians 13. And he said, even if I have faith to move mountains—and, of course, he's quoting Jesus saying, if we have mustard-seed faith, we can move mountains—Paul says even if we have that level of faith, but without love, I’m nothing. And it just reminded me again that that motivation, that heart's desire, that Spirit-led living is so critical to getting that fruit that we started in the beginning talking about, that fruit that remains, so that my relational capacity can be really extended to others when it's fueled by love.

Al: Yeah. Love is the killer app. We rely so much on applications on our smartphones, and what are the best apps? Well, Jesus taught us that love is the killer app. It’s the one app that's better than any others. And that's exactly—love really trumps everything.

So what I think about, especially in Christian-led workplaces, and that's who's listening, leaders in Christian-led workplaces, nurturing and growing our capacity for emotional intelligence is something that is on most of our minds, and the ability to understand, use, and manage our own emotions in positive ways. I mean, and we see over and over again how people use their emotions in negative ways and how it hurts others. But emotional intelligence is using it in positive ways to relieve stress, to communicate effectively, to empathize with others, and overcome challenges to diffuse conflict that might arise. Talk a little bit about nurturing and growing our capacity for emotional intelligence, Boyd.

Boyd: One of my struggles over the years, Al, has been, I think I've done okay at loving God with my mind, because I love truth, I love meditating on the Word, I love discovering all these nuggets of wisdom in the scripture. But a big struggle that I've had is really learning what it means to love God with my heart. And when we became empty nesters a few years back, Rita and I decided, we've never been empty nesters before. It might be wise to have some additional training and to reconnect as a couple. We've been pouring our lives into these four daughters all these years. And what can we do now for each other to nurture each other's emotions, each other's hearts?

So we actually went to a marriage intensive here close to Atlanta. And the curriculum was called Emotional Fitness, and I didn’t like it.

Al: It’s that fitness word, right?

Boyd: Yeah. And the emotion, yeah. And the counselor said, listen, you'll be fine, Boyd. Just keep your emotional training wheels on and you’ll be okay. But it was one of our best four days of investment in our marriage, because it gave me some skills and tools. I think sometimes as leaders, we think we just need to be more spiritual. But in reality, we need some skills. And for me, it helped me to be able to better be known to my wife and to try to understand her, to be vulnerable about some of the hurts that I've gone through, either in my childhood or as an adult, or things maybe she disappointed me or I disappointed her. And so it's this awareness, like you were talking about, this emotion awareness, because I think tears and empathy are the language of love. And when I’m able to put into words something that I’d been hurt by or struggle with, and I open up, I think there’s healing with that. You know, he talks about confessing our sins to one another, being healed.

And so I think this emotional fitness, this willingness to engage one another, that First Peter talks about loving each other in an understanding way. So for emotional fitness for my wife or people that I serve at work, how do they feel love? What makes them feel loved? What allows them to engage relationally with me because I've been able to speak their love language? And so this part of loving God with our heart, loving each other with our heart, I think is critical.

And one other thought related to this: empathy doesn't mean that I agree—I've had to learn this—empathy doesn't mean that I necessarily agree with everything somebody’s saying, but it does show that I care and that I want to love them where they are and not be this self-righteous person that judges them and makes them feel like they have to come to where I am to be accepted.

Al: Yeah, yeah. Empathy, its role in relationships, but it’s really critical.

Let's move on to chapter two for a minute. That also caught my eye. This is something that we get involved in at the Best Christian Workplaces quite a bit. We're often called in. We do focus groups because trust isn't broken. And in the chapter that you have in chapter two is “Restore a Relationship When Trust Is Broken,” and that really caught my attention. And while you could have focused on many qualities essential to building quality relationships—and again, it's all about relationships—but you chose trust. So at the foundation, why trust?

Boyd: Yeah, trust is foundation to our relationships. You know, we can go back to our salvation experience that the reason we trusted Jesus was that the Holy Spirit brought us to the end of ourselves and we knew we couldn't save ourselves. And so relationally, that relationship with the Lord, it begins with trust, relationship with each other. I like to say it like this, Al, that really in our relationships, love shows empathy, then empathy leads to understanding, and understanding leads to trust, and then trust leads to influence.

The mistake I made in the past is I just want to go right at trying to correct someone, and here's what the truth is, and if you would believe this or do this, then you would be okay or you’d be able to solve this problem. And what I’m learning, as I get older and have a few more gray hairs, that no, it begins, first of all, am I loving well, because that will always going to express the empathy. Then, I can really know them and know what the problem is and understand. And then they'll say, well, wow, Boyd really cares. I trust him. And then if there is some influence I might could offer as a leader at that point, I've earned that or I've been able to be trusted with that.

And then when we sever that trust, what we spent years building, sometimes I can break that just in a moment. And then there's this phrase called relational repair that I think's critical to coming back to say I was wrong. I'm learning that just simple words like—and really meaning it—I was wrong, I was a knucklehead, I was tired, I was exhausted, I didn't know what I was—I wasn’t thinking straight. Would you forgive me? And in action, say the words of what I did. I was wrong to be angry. I'm sorry. I wasn't angry at you. I was really angry at myself because I took on too much responsibility this month, and I should have known better. Trying to rebuild that relationship and rebuild that trust.

Al: That’s my question, because oftentimes when we ask what's the quality of trust in relationships, and then we see that it's been broken—you've already begun to answer this question—but once trust is broken, help us. What are some of the steps that you can take to restore a relationship when trust is broken? Any recommendations for us? You've already mentioned just admitting that you are wrong. That's a good first start. Any other keys in that process?

Boyd: Yeah. I don't have the three easy steps, but I do think humility is one of those. And, of course, Jesus modeled that so well. But even if I feel like I'm only 10 percent wrong, you know, if I can still come with a posture of humility, and especially in the workplace, I think secular leadership says never admit wrong or never apologize. I'm thinking, wait; that’s backwards. I think it's just the opposite of that. I think as a leader—in fact, I’ve come up with a question for our whole team that I serve in Georgia here, and the question is, they can ask me at any time, Boyd, are you sure? because I tend to have the idea of the month, and I tend to put too much on the calendar than we can execute. And so if I don't want to break that relational trust with my team, I need to give them—so this is kind of preemptive. I'm more on the preemptive side—I need to get the permission to ask me at any time, are you sure that's what we need to do? Are you sure that's what we…? because I don't trust myself by myself. I need the wisdom and input and accountability. But the short answer, again, I think is humility, Al, that if I'm willing to just approach it and say we're going to figure this out, and I want to build our relationship back, make it stronger.

Al: Yeah. I do love the process: love builds empathy; empathy builds understanding; understanding builds trust; trust builds influence. I mean, going back to that, and of course, humility, I think, is a core to all of that, to think of others more than you're thinking of yourself, for sure. Yeah.

Al: I trust you’re enjoying our podcast today. We’ll be right back after an important word for leaders.

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Al: And now, back to today’s special guest.

Wow. You know, you built a lifelong relationship with Andy Stanley, the lead pastor at North Point Community Church, and it's clear that as he gets ministry, so do you. And you understand that organizational culture and surely appreciate why trust is the lifeblood of every good relationship as well as employee engagement. That's kind of what I focus on, is how do we build employee engagement? Can you give us a favorite story from your book or maybe even your life of what reveals how trust can be built and sustained for life, not just short term, but for the long term?

Boyd: I’m a firm believer, Al, that our leadership and our relationships, those investments begin, of course, at home, and then we export that out as we're serving in the marketplace. And I have to say, with four daughters—well, first of all, with the oldest daughter, we were always apologizing. Whatever age she was, we'd never had one. And I said, Rebecca, if you're 10, I've never had a 10-year-old, so I need extra patience and forgiveness, because I'm practicing on you. I don't know what I’m… Well, we told our girls over the years to marry your best friend, make sure your heart flutters, and make sure they love the Lord more than they love you. So there's that companionship, that romance, and that spiritual aspect of the relationship.

So the four sons-in law that we have, that we get to love on and serve and invest in, they all have jobs, which is great, and they all love the Lord. But I stole this idea from a friend 15 years ago. I have a monthly conference call with the four sons-in-law. And it's like an earnings report, a monthly report on how things are going. I'm always very interested in how their wives doing. But they've come up with four questions, and then again, this is all around relational investment. And we've done it through video. We do it in person now that they're all back in Atlanta. But they came up with these three questions: what is God teaching you, what are you learning from your family, and what is your biggest challenge at work we can pray for you? And to see the love and the trust that's grown and the accountability in their relationship’s been beautiful. And I'm just there to help facilitate and set up the time, but they talk the whole time. I'm just kind of there in the background. And they love each other. We go on trips together. So I think the investment in these sons-in-law and now when there's challenges that arise, there's enough relational equity that, you know, they trust me, they trust each other. In fact, that I've told them all along, I'm not here to tell you what to do, but to support you in what you do. But if you ask me my opinion, I will certainly share that with you. And so I think that investment of those that are going to attend my funeral is the first place to start. Then, from there, build that same rhythm with others in their lives.

Al: You're speaking deep truth here, and I appreciate that. And what I really like is you're talking about how to build trust in its investments. It's continual investments, like you're putting money into a bank account to build that bank account of trust. And Covey in the book Trust talks about, yeah, it's investments that build trust over time and building, to use your term, relational equity. Those are terms that I certainly understand. And good for you.

So monthly conference call with your four sons-in law, that's without your daughters on the phone, right? It’s just your sons-in-law that all connect with you. Isn’t that great?

Boyd: And it’s beautiful to watch them call each other out. Like, one will say, “Well, sounds like you’re traveling too much. You’ve got three kids under five now. Your wife needs you.” And I’m not saying it; they are.

Al: Right. Yeah.

Boyd: And so I think as a leader, creating those environments where our leaders, in this case sons-in-law, can hold each other accountable and love each other and support each other, and it’s not just the leader saying, “You should do this.” It’s happening out of relationship.

Al: And that’s the kind of relationship—so, I mean, in a leadership team, for example, an organization, hopefully, the leadership team has that similar type of relationship with each other, where a leader is building into those relationships. Wouldn’t you say it’d be very similar?

Boyd: Absolutely. And we just had our offsite last month. We do this once a year to plan out the calendar and the budget for the upcoming year. The first two hours, each of the five team members talked about their high and low interest their entire life. And I learned things about our team that I never knew. And you could feel the trust level doing this.

Al: Yeah.

Boyd: And so then, when we got down to business, that's where we operated from, that high level…

Al: From… Yeah. Get to that high level of trust and stay there, yeah. And that does take relationships, doesn't it? Sounds like you should write a book about this relationship thing.

Boyd: I’m still a work in process. That’s what keeps it interesting.

Al: Well, that’s why we’re doing this podcast and why leaders listen to it, because we're all in the same spot.

So given the uncertainties in our midst, and now let's take this to a modern context, where we are right now. You know, we've got COVID-19 out there. This summer, we've had, still even now, simmering racial tension. Here we are on Zoom. Hours a day, we're all spending on Zoom so that we've got Zoom fatigue. People are complaining about that, for sure. What's one practical thing a leader can do with his or her team, maybe a department or even an organization, to experience greater trust? And give us a couple of practical tips here.

Boyd: Yeah. I think COVID has really helped our team and our family elevate what's most important in life and in work. And we're having the best year we've ever had at work and I think partly because our team has become very creative around—well, first of all, we had a high level of trust going into COVID, which as so helpful. We’ve been together five years. So that was so helpful.

I think, secondly, when I was reaching out to my African-American brothers, where I've been trying to be intentional ever since Promise Keepers, so for 25 years, Lee Jenkins and I went through Tony Evans’s book, Let's Get to Know Each Other: What White Christians Need to Know About Black Christians. And so I helped Lee run for mayor of lily-white Roswell, and he actually won 46 percent of the vote. I mean, it was a great experience being on his team. But what I'm learning from Lee and others, with the racial tension, is kind of three e's—the word empathy again. So, Boyd, I need to know you really care and understand what I'm going through and the tension that I've had all my life and what my kids go through. And so that's the first word I think that I'm continuing to use.

And then the second word is education. So Lee has done a good job educating me and helping me to understand his culture and what his needs are. And I've learned about that because I haven't grown up in a minority culture as he has.

And then the third word is engagement. I said, “Well, Lee, what's the best thing I can do?” I asked him this 25 years ago. He said, “Be my friend. Engage with me in a friendship.” And so a couple of years ago, he started a movement called Conversations. We've been bringing white leaders and black leaders together and having these conversations so we could be educated, have more empathy, understand each other.

And so, you know, isn't it interesting, Al, that whether it's COVID or racial tensions or when things seem to be going okay overall, really, God's recipe is pretty similar. It's love. It's empathy. It's understanding. It's forgiveness. It's healing. It's wholeness. It's authenticity. You know, it's all those things that Jesus modeled that I continue to forget.

Al: Those are all Christian themes that help relationships. And again, that kind of gets back to our vision that Christian workplaces should be the best, most-effective places to work in the world. And that is so true. And, you know, it's interesting, Boyd, I'll say in the organizations we're working with in COVID, there's many of them that are saying, actually our culture and our engagement is better now than it was when we actually met together, and I think it's because we have to be so intentional, and intentional about communicating, intentional about relationships, where it was just taken for granted before. So we're seeing, in fact, we're looking just now at some of our data. What are we experiencing, what are our employees’ experience pre COVID versus actually during COVID in the workplace. And we're seeing that communication clearly for those that have been intentional about keeping and building on their culture has really made it the best yet as they've pivoted, as they've been innovative and continuing their work in their ministry. Wow.

Boyd: Yeah. Al, I think also just being extra sensitive to our team members, because, for example, one of ours is a single mom, and her mom actually lives with her, her 83-year-old mom, and a daughter and her children. And so giving her some margin in her schedule in life and allowing her to take a break and go to a silent retreat or take some vacation, and even financially helping some towards that, these are different days, and confinement can cause a lot of stress and anxiety. So she was so relieved to know she could get some time for her own soul care and to get some of God's fresh air. So I think just being extra sensitive to where team members are, the needs may look different than they were pre COVID.

Al: And being aware of those. Yeah, that's great.

You know, I've heard it said that sooner or later in writing a book, a book actually starts to write the author. Was there a time when something you were writing started to speak to you as you were holding up a mirror and as you began to look at your own life and your relationships in a new way? especially with a book title like the one we're talking about.

Boyd: You know, I've not heard that phrase. I will be using that again. It's a great phrase. And the answer is absolutely true. As I was going through the process of putting pen to paper and trying to write from the heart, I was so reminded that relationships are the true riches that Jesus talked about and that Paul wrote about, the true riches of relationship with God, the true riches of relationship with each other. And Jesus said there’s only one competitor to that, and it's God and money. And so taking my eyes off of affluence and our Western Christianity that tends to get all wrapped up in success in ways that maybe God doesn't define as success, and looking at my balance sheet, looking at my relational balance sheet, and the filthy richness of—

In fact, Rita and I we're invited down to our friend’s 75th birthday in Buckhead, and it was raining, and it took us two hours. It was just crazy. And we sat there—we’ve known this family for 30 years—and we sat there and watched family members and acquaintances from college and high school and business stand up and talk how my friend Charlie had invested in their lives all these years. And I thought that's the true riches, the true riches of they're not talking about how much money he made. They're not talking about his big house, his nice cars. They talked about how he personally loved them and loved them well. So as I was writing this, I was thinking, yes, those who refresh others will themselves be refreshed. Those are the true riches—relationships are the true riches that God talked about.

Al: I love that. That's a very convicting. We mentioned earlier, we both know of the Enneagram and we both end up as 3s, the achiever section of the Enneagram. And 3s in their unhealthy state, let's just say, can have a tendency to run over people just to get things done. And it's, of course, the healthy side that understands, well, relationships are really the most important thing. Relationships really with people help us to see achievements. There's no question. But yeah, relationships are the true riches.

In the last chapter you've got the title “Grow a Loving Relationship with God.” You've already mentioned this to a degree. In the chapter, you ponder, or you offer, let’s just say, a point to ponder, which is our Lord lavishes His love on us so we can lavishly love others. And for everyone listening, who has lavished the Lord's love on you in a way that you won't forget?

Boyd: Nine years ago I had a life-threatening illness, and I didn't like it. So I went through this treatment procedure for cancer, and it went well, thank the Lord. But I was just emotionally exhausted and spiritually spent. And so I went off—I went to a monastery, one of my favorite places. I went to the monastery in New York that Henry and Allen actually spent a year serving Genesee Abbey. And as you may know, Al, part of that week experience is silence. It's all silence. It’s Trappist monks. I can take part of my time on a Tuesday and meet with a monk. And so I thought that’d be cool. I want to meet with a monk, try to stump the monk, so to speak. I met with Brother Marcellus. He's in heaven now. Since then he's died. But he looked me in the face. I've got a strange Southern name. He must've called my name 12 times. Don't we love it when somebody knows our name?

Al: Yeah.

Boyd: That's the first step in being known, right?

Al: That's right.

Boyd: I know his name. He's important. I know his name. He sat in the hard chair, he put me in the comfortable little love seat, and he talked, and I just sit there and I listened. It was beautiful. He just talked. He said for 50 years he'd been praying there in this monastery and serving these brothers in the community. So I said, “I only have one question. Brother Marcellus, how can I grow in my capacity to love and in my walk in humility with Christ? How can I grow in those?”

And he didn’t skip a beat. He just lifted up his two bony fingers—he’s probably 85—and he said, “Boyd, it’s been my experience that whenever we hurt of offend someone, or whenever we’ve been hurt or offended, the sooner that we forgive that person, the quicker our relationship is restored and we grow in love and humility in our relationships.” And he held up his two bony fingers, and he said, “For some of us, that’s a lifetime, and we die in bitterness.” And he started bringing his fingers together. And he said, “For some it takes years. For some it takes months. For some it takes weeks, days, hours, minutes, and seconds.” He said, “Those that walk closest with Christ, it's simultaneous. The forgiveness is simultaneous to the offense.” And I’d had some bitterness in my heart, and I had some resentment and some anger about going through this illness and feeling like I was being sidelined, and “God, I’m doing Your work. And I’m trying to be a good leader and a good husband, father. Why am I…?” And He helped me to forgive and to understand that if I want to grow in grace and humility and love with the Lord, the quicker I can forgive someone, the sooner my relationship with Jesus can be whole and healthy.

Al: As Jesus said, you can love because He first loved us. And thinking about that, contemplating on it, that’s exactly—and so forgiveness comes quickly when we feel just overwhelmingly loved by loving God. That's fantastic. Thanks, Boyd.

I’ve really enjoyed all we've been learning and talking about. I love our conversation. Just seems to have flowed. I love the fact, as you talked about, oftentimes we get stuck in our mind, and we really need to begin to focus on our heart and how relationship’s really key around emotional fitness. I love the term. And at the core of that is empathy and how we need to really be looking at those that we're working with, looking at our family members, our spouses, with empathy, and then kind of start, you know, even as you are saying, with your relationships with other races, how can we develop those relationships? Well, empathy is the start. And how leadership investments really begin at home and kind of start in our own hearts as we work with others. And again, I love the title of your book. Just joking earlier, this was the argument in our house growing up between my mother and father as they were trying to teach me: is it who you know or what you know is more important? And my mother was the relationship-focused person, and she said, “Well, having good relationships allows you to know it's who you know that's going to help you.” And my father, the good accountant, was always the competency side: it’s what you know, but it's relationships that really are important for our soul and the way God has designed us going forward.

So, you know, at the conclusion of your book, you offer this take away: relational leaders who walk in the fullness of the Holy Spirit exude joy that attracts others to Jesus. And I'll have to say, boy, I can't agree more. So to conclude our time, Boyd, I thought it’d really be great if you could share a prayer that you wrote. It's just at the end of the book. It's called “A Prayer for Loving Like Jesus.” Would you read that to us to conclude our time?

Boyd: Sure. Thank you, Al.

“Dear Jesus, lover of my soul, when I bow in humility, You lift me up by Your generous love. When I sing joyful praises, You fill my heart to overflowing with Your abundant love. When I weep tears of sorrow, You soothe my soul. It is a comforting love. When I timidly share my doubts, You boldly infuse my faith with Your confident love. When I'm unsure of what to do, You pour out Your loving wisdom to show me the way. When fear floods my feelings, You flush me clean with Your perfect love. When I'm weary, You provide rest with Your peaceful love. Lover of my soul, I lean into Your lavish love so I might love others for You and to You. Thank you, precious Jesus, for embracing me for who I am and for releasing me to be a radical lover of You and others. Amen.”

And so God so loved us so that we could love others, I John 4:19.

Al: Yeah, yeah.

Boyd Bailey, author of the Essential Habits of Relational Leaders: Building a Culture of Trust, thanks so much for sharing your wisdom, insights, and stories, and thank you for investing yourself in everyone who's been listening and benefiting from all you've shared with us today. Thanks, Boyd.

Boyd: You’re welcome, Al. What a joy being with you. Thank you so much for your life and what you stand for.

Al: Well, thanks, Boyd.

And if people were interested in your book, where can they find it?

Boyd: Yeah. Amazon is a great spot, so convenient; wisdomhunters.com; and most places where books are sold.

Al: Okay, great. Thanks, Boyd.

Boyd: You’re welcome.

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