Transcript: Why Diversity and Reconciliation are Critically Important for Your Organization to Thrive // Marcus Robinson, Life Pacific University

Intro: Let's be honest: when you hear “diversity, equity, and inclusion,” do you want to run the other way; say “no, that's not something I'm interested in”? Listen to my conversation today with a leader who will cause you to think it's something that's critically important for an organization to thrive and our Christian witness.

Welcome: Welcome to the Flourishing Culture Leadership Podcast, your home for open, honest, and insightful conversations to help develop your leadership, your team, and build a flourishing workplace culture.

Al Lopus: Hello, I'm Al Lopus, the co-founder of the Best Christian Workplaces and author of the book Road to Flourishing: Eight Keys to Boost Employee Engagement and Well-Being. And I’m proud to announce my book is a finalist in this year’s Christian Book Awards. As you know, I'm passionate about helping Christian leaders create engaged, flourishing workplaces, and want to thank you for joining us today.

How do you lead your organization to reflect the fullness of God's Kingdom? What are you missing, from a biblical perspective and in a practical sense, if you aren't growing in the area of diversity and racial reconciliation? Today on the Flourishing Culture Leadership Podcast, we’ll learn from a leader who has a deep understanding of the value of diversity and how we can reflect God's Kingdom in our organizations. Listen in to learn how you can grow in your commitment to diversity and reconciliation.

Well, I'm delighted to welcome Marcus Robinson to the Flourishing Culture Leadership Podcast today. Marcus is the director of diversity and reconciliation at Life Pacific University in the Southern California area. Life Pacific University exists for the transformational development of students into leaders, prepared to serve God in the church, the workplace, and the world. The university was founded in 1923 and is affiliated with the Foursquare Church and is committed to the enduring Pentecostal mission.

Marcus joined Life Pacific University in 2022. He has more than 15 years of experience in diversity management, program development, and pastoral leadership roles. He has served as a pastor of several Chinese/Taiwanese, and multiethnic churches, and is a licensed Foursquare ministry. In 2006, Marcus founded Dream and Imagine, providing spiritual, educational, and professional development resources for emerging artists and creative leaders throughout the L.A. area.

Hello, Marcus, and welcome to the Flourishing Culture Leadership Podcast. I'm so glad you could join us today.

Marcus Robinson: Well, thank you. It's my pleasure to be here.

Al: You bring a fascinating background of skills, experiences, and educational credentials to your current work at Life Pacific University. And I love your MS in organizational psychology. You're also working towards a DMin, you've got pastoral experience in multicultural churches, and you've been mentoring even those involved in creative arts. That is a diverse, complex group of people that you've been working with, for sure. Well, share with us how you've seen God in the layers of your life experiences and how they come to your current position of leadership and diversity and reconciliation at Life Pacific University.

Marcus: Yeah. Well, it looks like that was God's plan from the beginning. I was adopted. I was abandoned as a child and was in the foster-care system for about two or three years. The story is my biological parents were on drugs. My father was a drug dealer, drug addict. Mother, same thing—drug addict—and then she ended up being homeless, and I was abandoned and went through foster care and was adopted by my uncle, my dad's biological brother, and then his girlfriend at the time, who was white, in the city of Ontario, which is in the Inland Empire outside of L.A., a bit east of L.A., about 30 minutes. And I was exposed to a lot of different cultures.

My adoptive mom, she didn't come from a poor family. Her family was well-off. Her dad worked for the oil companies out in Houston. She's white. You know, my adoptive grandmother, she's from Bolivia. My adoptive mom was born in Peru. First language, Spanish. So it's, you know, I grew up in an environment where it wasn't unfamiliar to be around different cultures, different experiences, different socioeconomic classes. And I just kind of grew up being aware that people are different. I never knew that God was going to use that for ministry, you know? It just, everything just kind of came together later on. So yeah, multiculturalism has always been a part of just my existence.

Al: Seems like every tribe and every nation is evident in your background.

Marcus: Maybe, yeah.

Al: Not everyone, but, yeah. Wow. That's great. Thanks, Marcus.

Well, so let's talk about building a diverse and inclusive environment that includes intentionality and leadership. And, you know, it does take intentionality and leadership. And this is true in Christian higher ed; it’s true in churches, nonprofits, Christian-led businesses. The reality is that we're not going to see diversity and reconciliation without leadership. So what are some of the key strategies that leaders and our listeners can embrace to effectively build a workplace that values diverse voices?

Marcus: Yeah. I think the most important thing is when you're recruiting, you got to recruit—leaders, employees, whatever it is that you're recruiting—you've got to recruit toward your mission. You need to understand, what is the organization's mission? and recruit toward that. But in the back of your mind, you have to understand that different kinds of people will bring different things to the table. They'll bring different talents, different experiences, different strengths, different weaknesses, too. So it’s being aware that we want to create an inclusive, diverse environment. But what is our mission? what do we need? and recruit toward that mission.

I know a lot of times, especially at LPU, where I work as the director of diversity and reconciliation, a lot of times we're recruiting students. Like, students will send applications, and I'm a part of the screening process, and I'll interview these students. I'll ask very direct questions like, what is it that you can contribute to our campus? What has God put inside of you that you feel will bless this campus? And a lot of times, I mean, if you ask the right questions, you'll get the response you're looking for. And a lot of times, the students, they don't know, or sometimes they have somewhat of an idea, “Hey, I'm good at this. And I was a leader of my soccer team, and this happened,” and you start hearing them talk about skills and gifts that God placed in them. And as a person who's recruiting, I'm like, “Okay. We need that. Okay,” or “All right. This one right here, we're not looking for that particular thing, but we need that.” And I think when you have in mind that, “Okay. We're looking for a diverse population,” and you're looking for, you know, like, “What did God put in these people?” I think the mistake that a lot of people make in these organizations and in a lot of organizations is that they recruit for the sake of diversity. You know, it's just diversity for the sake of diversity. “Okay, we got a black person. We got a white person. We got a Hispanic person. We got an Asian person. There we go.” And it looks diverse, but it might not be the diversity you're looking for. You know, you got to recruit for that talent for the mission. And then I think, you know, it's almost natural that if you're looking for different things, it's natural that you recruit and attract a diverse group of workers or students or whatever is that you're recruiting for.

Al: Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Wow. Marcus, first of all, I love that your focus is, you know, let's recruit towards mission, and that's the first thing, and not recruit for the sake, just for the sake of diversity. But what a great question. You know, here's a question that I think our listeners could really use. How can you contribute to our organization? And again, when you’re looking for specific things, you're going to find, what you're saying is, some diversity to solve the problems that you've got. Yeah.

So valuing and working towards diversity is more than just a human-resource goal in many organizations or even a leadership endeavor. You know, diversity isn't just a good idea for an organization. It's actually part of our biblical foundation of Christians.

Marcus: Oh, absolutely. Yeah.

Al: And that's kind of the foundation of where we want to start. So help our listeners think through how God views diversity and how it's shown in the heart of Christ.

Marcus: Yeah. I mean, diversity is really the creative genius of God. You look at the fish in the sea. I mean, it's just so many different kinds. Look at the flowers. So many different kinds. Look at people. So many different kinds of people. And it takes all of us to really paint a portrait of the magnificence of God and the splendor of who God is. It takes all of us to really paint an accurate picture of God's glory. And I think as individuals, we only have a piece of the puzzle, only a part of it. And when we as the church, when we're unified with all of our different ethnicities, different backgrounds, understandings of life and paradigms, when we're able to come together in unity, it glorifies God.

And the strength to that is this: like, as an individual, I have a lot of blind spots. There are a lot of things I just don't know, I can't see. It's not my experience. And I can only speak to what I know, what I see. But someone else will come and they'll have experiences I didn't have. They'll be able to see things, understand things that I can't see, and they can cover for my blind spots.

Like, if you have an organization, let's say everybody on the board is black, African American, they're going to have some strengths, but then they're going to be—if we all have the same experiences, there are going to be a lot of blind sides, a lot of blind spots. So when you have people from different experiences, different cultures, you're able to kind of see more holistically the needs of the organization. Everybody can contribute. We can understand what various people in the organization are going through, and without overlooking, people will feel seen, like they belong. So diversity is a strength for any organization, especially when you're trying to cover all the bases to make sure that people are taking care of. You know, those blind spots are covered when you have a diverse leadership team.

Al: Yeah. I love what you just said, the creative genius of God, that’s diversity. And just like the number of fish, yeah. I mean, across creation. And alone, we only see or we only are part of that great diversity. As we talk about this, you know, our audience is going to say, you know, “The biblical foundation is essential.” And we’re not hearing a lot about the biblical foundation when we talk about these topics. But we see many practical benefits to having a diverse group of people. You've just mentioned several of them, as they all work together for organizational vision. So what are some of the ways an organization can benefit in a practical way by having diverse voices at the table and valuing participation? And can you give an example of how you've seen diversity positively benefit an organization in achieving its vision?

Marcus: Yeah. I remember, a while ago I was pastoring a church—it was a Chinese church—and all the leaders there were Chinese, from China. I was the only one there who was African American. And the church was in a predominantly Hispanic neighborhood. And there were bunch of kids who they saw as problems, who come on the property and play on the basketball court and maybe leave trash. Every staff meeting, they’re complaining about what the kids, neighborhood kids, were doing, what the neighborhood kids were doing. It was every staff meeting, the same thing, you know. And what ended up happening, there was a Hispanic pastor who's looking for a building to pastor his church. And I was, like, you know, I think it's a good idea to share the church with this pastor because he would have a better understanding of these kids in this neighborhood. So they gave it to him for free. You know, he was able to use the building for free. He had about 100 and something people in his congregation. And immediately, they took care of the problem of those neighborhood kids. They invited them to church, to youth camp. They started discipling them. And those kids, they weren't a problem. They're just there, you know, like, they're just neighborhood kids. They weren't a problem, but it took diverse leadership to understand the need of the neighborhood. So they were able to include those kids into our community, and that problem was solved.

And I think that's the importance of diversity. Sometimes it takes diverse leadership to understand the need. You know, it might be a need for the customers. You know, if we're all thinking one way, we're not going to get the outside-of-the-box answer, the creative answer. But what happens is when you have diverse leadership, there's creativity. You can solve problems a lot easier. You can think outside of the box a lot easier with that diverse leadership.

Al: Just to continue on, there's a lot of buzz in our culture right now about DEI—diversity, equity, and inclusion. And I believe, clearly it's all about reconciliation.

Marcus: Yeah.

Al: That's the step forward, and how that's an important component of the process of healing in the racial divides that we see, especially for those that follow Jesus. I mean, let's admit they do exist. So from your heart as a pastor, you know, help us go deeper into this area and this idea of reconciliation. How can we incorporate an understanding of the process of reconciliation as we work together with others to move toward wholeness?

Marcus: Yeah. I want to talk about that. First thing you mentioned about DEI, it's a buzzword in the Christian community, and people don't feel comfortable with that. And I think the reason is people are thinking, like, “This is some kind of a Trojan horse. They're going to bring this DEI, this framework that's from secular society into the church, and it's going to destroy us. It's going to tear us apart.” And as a pastor, I'm definitely aware of that. I’m aware of we have to be very careful about using the world's frameworks and systems and thinking that's going to work in a system where we're trying to abide by Kingdom laws and under Christ's rule.

But when I first came to LPU, the name on my office was director of diversity, equity, and inclusion. And I got a lot of pushback from Christians saying, like, “That's the devil. What are you doing?” And I came in during all the George Floyd tensions, and there was a lot going on. And the first thing that I do, I was like, “If this is going to be a barrier, you know, the name of this office, then let's change it. Let's speak the language that we all understand.” So we changed the name of my office from the office of diversity, equity, and inclusion to the office of diversity and reconciliation. Why? Because that's the mandate for Christians.

As a Christian, you are in the work of reconciliation, whether you like it or not. When you look at the Great Commission, is to “Go ye, therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.” And as Christians, it's our job to immerse society, people, into the love and the nature of Jesus Christ, of the Father, of the Holy Spirit. And whether you're working in a secular job, if you're a Christian, your job is to shepherd people. If you're CEO of a company and if you're a Christian, your job is to find those lost sheep out there and to show them the love of Christ. You're doing the work of reconciliation. And the work of reconciliation is not just racial reconciliation. We are reconciling people with God, people who are lost, people who don't know Christ, who have not experienced the love of Christ, people who’ve been broken. It's our job as Christian leaders to exhibit the love of Christ; to show the ethic of Christ, Christian work ethic; and to show Christian excellence at the place where God has assigned us. And we're shepherds there. And as we do the work of shepherding, even in secular society, we are doing the work of reconciliation.

So even as I work as the director of diversity and reconciliation here at a university, I always see it I'm a pastor here. So what I'm doing is I'm pastoring people through some of these tough social issues. My role is to help them to think biblically about it. What would Jesus do?, you know, like the old bracelet back in the day. What would Jesus do? When we're having all these tensions about race, what would Jesus do? When you're trying to recruit a student and you're seeing certain red flags, like, would this person fit in an all-Christian environment, what would Jesus do? What is the wisdom of God in this situation? So everything is seen through the lens of pastoral ministry, for me at least. You know, everything is, like, okay, is this a person? Is this a lost sheep that's trying to apply to this university? Or is this a person who's going to cause a lot of damage, someone we need to watch out for? and using that discernment before we recruit students. When we’re hiring staff, you know, is this going to be a person who's going to shepherd our students and help them to develop and to grow into the person that God has called them to be? So all these things are at play when I'm doing this role as a director of diversity and reconciliation. Like, it really is to me a pastoral position, and we really are doing the work of reconciliation.

Al: Yeah. I love that. And of course, that takes relationships, doesn't it—

Marcus: Yeah.

Al: —when you're working through issues, you try to come to reconciliation. And yes, it is, as Christians, we're helping reconcile people to God. So it's all part of the work that we have in front of us.

I trust you’re enjoying our podcast today. We’ll be right back after an important word for leaders.

Female: As we come through the COVID-19 crisis, leaders everywhere are asking, how do we understand the tensions our employees are experiencing coming back to work? How do we keep our employees engaged, hold on to our best talent, and position ourselves to thrive as an organization going forward? If you're looking for a way forward, the Best Christian Workplaces Institute can guide you onto the road to a flourishing workplace.

The first step to begin the journey is our well-known Employee Engagement Survey. This proven online tool pinpoints where your organization is already strong and where you can improve your employees’ workplace experience, resulting in more productive people. That's right. You'll have more engaged, productive, and fulfilled people. Time-consuming guesswork won't get you there. Instead, let us help you with a fact-based, hope-inspiring action plan that only our Employee Engagement Survey and skillful coaching can provide. Sign up now to begin the journey to build a flourishing workplace culture and a thriving organization. Find out more at bcwinstitute.org.

Al: Now back to our conversation with Marcus Robinson, the director of diversity and reconciliation at Life Pacific University.

You know, I think about what might be helpful to our listeners is to hear an example or two how diversity and reconciliation can work within an organization. And I love the example of the Chinese church and working with the Hispanic neighbors. As leaders, can we understand the philosophy and the why of diversity? You know, can you share that with us, and maybe even how some leaders can implement real change in this area? So share an example are two, if you would.

Marcus: I would say the first benefit is definitely the creativity and the different types of problem-solving tools that you’ll have if you have a diverse leadership team. I think the other way we have to think about it is as Christians, we are all being discipled. We're all growing. And I think as leaders who are responsible for building teams and building and recruiting leaders for whatever the organization is, we have to see it as, how can God disciple me through this? And sometimes we have to ask the honest question, if I'm going to grow, I'm going to have to be put in a situation where I'm a bit uncomfortable, where there's that tension. And when people who think differently than you, who will challenge your point of view when you're surrounded by godly people—you know, people with the Spirit—who are different and who will challenge you, guess what. You grow as a disciple. I would look at it like, “Hey, this diversity initiative is beneficial for me because I'm going to grow. I'm going to grow because I'm going to surround myself with people who are going to challenge me.” So I think that is the most critical component of diversity. And I know for me personally, that's what it's been.

Like, I remember right before I got saved—I got saved when I was 16—the first thing the Lord did was put me in diverse communities or different communities. I've pastored three different Chinese churches. I currently pastor a Korean church, and if you guys can't see me, I'm African American. And the funny thing was, like, if you would have asked me in high school, like, “Marcus, what would you be doing when you're in your thirties and forties?” I would have never answered, “Oh, pastoring Chinese churches.” I didn't like rice, kung fu, none of that, you know? But the first thing that Lord did was He put me in the Chinese culture. I started teaching ESL as an intern when I was at Azusa Pacific in my undergrad, went on missions trips to Taiwan and China, and the Lord just put me around people who are different and Christians who thought differently. I worshipped with Chinese Christians, who were in an underground church, persecuted church. I've been around people who understood Christ in a different way than myself, and that caused growth; that caused me to grow.

So I think when you look at it in the sense that, “Hey, like, it might be uncomfortable for me to push this whole diversity thing, but it's going to be good for me. It's going to be good for my spiritual growth. It’s going to be good for my discipleship,” I think that is the benefit that people overlook when it comes to diversity.

Al: Well, I like your point there about, you know, whenever we're about ready to grow, usually we're uncomfortable because there's change, isn't there? And for us to grow in our discipleship, as in our relationship with God, even, He'll point out things to us that we need to change that would draw us nearer to God. And that also is uncomfortable but leads to growth. And I often think, I was a Young Life leader in my college years, and we have to earn the right to be heard, which is also putting us in a position where we're going to be developing relationships with others that are not like us. And again, that's going to cause us to grow, and there might be just some discomfort along the way, but there's always a positive outcome. Yeah. I love that. Yeah.

So as you've watched leaders wrestle with diversity and reconciliation—and I think we're really in the midst of that, you know, post George Floyd, you know, where are we now? We're wrestling with it. It's still a very significant topic for leaders of Christian-led organizations—what are some of the common barriers that you see in organizations? So, you know, we want to help organizations to effectively move toward diversity and reconciliation. What are some practical ways for leaders to kind of get beyond some of the barriers that are out there?

Marcus: Yeah. I think you mentioned it: intentional relationships. We have to be very intentional about connecting with people in the body of Christ who come from different cultures than us, different socioeconomic backgrounds than us. And it's not just having relationships. I think where we fail is our ability to listen, our ability to listen deeply, not passively listen, not—I was reading a book, and the author was talking about—I forgot the name of the book— but the author was talking about the difference between listening to vinyl—where you have to, after 30, 20 minutes, it's going to be over. You’re going to have to go flip it over, flip the vinyl over, right?—and now everything’s streamed. You can listen to continuous music for hours at a time, and it becomes just background music because you don't have to flip the vinyl over. The vinyl forces you to really sit and listen to the music. And I think we have not developed the skill as Christians, as leaders, to really sit and listen to the music. What has God done in the lives of these people who are different than me? What is His expression? I think we have to be intentional about listening and understanding what the Holy Spirit is trying to communicate through people who are different, these other parts of the body of Christ, these other significant parts of the body of Christ who we may not be very familiar with.

So I think that is the practical thing that we can do. Be intentional about connecting with people who are different, who have different experiences, who are Christian, but have different experiences. And then, the second thing is to open ourselves up, to listen deeply.

Al: That’s great advice. Yeah. And again, I'll just say sometimes it's a little uncomfortable, but, you know, we should just sit and be patient and listen deeply. And part of our work as we work with Christian organizations and Christian leaders is to help them listen to their employees. And they may not always like what they hear about how the employees are experiencing their leadership, but if they're patient enough and listen deeply, they're going to learn and grow. And that's true in this, too. And it's, yeah, it’s having intentional relationships and listening deeply and being intentional about listening. No question about that. Yeah. This is fantastic.

Well, what are some resources that you could recommend to us that will help us continue to learn? Are there some voices that you listen to, that you read, that you watch, that you grow from?

Marcus: Yeah. I mean the Bible, of course.

Al: Yep.

Marcus: The Bible.

Al: That's the Sunday school answer. Yes, uh-huh.

Marcus: Jesus, the Bible. But there's a guy that I know. His name is Dr. George Yancey, and he has a book is called Beyond Racial Division: A Unifying Alternative to Colorblindness and Antiracism. That is a very good book. It kind of helps you understand some of the different points of view on racial reconciliation. He does a very good job of explaining the tension, like, why is there tension between these two groups? and explaining what they believe in. And he believes that there's mutual responsibility. It's not—like, racism in America's not just the African Americans’ responsibility. It is not just the Euro-American responsibility. But we together can come to a conclusion or to a way that we can bring reconciliation. So that's one of the books I would recommend.

Miles McPherson has a book called The Third Option, and he talks a lot about how to facilitate this discussion of racial reconciliation. There's a guy named Curtiss Paul DeYoung. He wrote a book called United by Faith. It’s a very good book.

Timothy Keller, Generous Justice. I think that one really helped me a lot. When I first started my position here, that was one of the first books I read was Timothy Keller, Generous Justice. And he talks about just kind of a biblical perspective of what justice is. In the Old Testament, the concept, he really breaks down the book of Job and how there's this idea of what justice is, that doesn't really match what we think today in our contemporary ideas of justice. So those are some books I would recommend.

But honestly, most of my reading on—most of what I know about justice, it just comes from just deep meditation on the Word of God. I listen to my audio Bible. I'm constantly listening to Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, and just especially the book of Luke and just watching how Jesus interacts with people who are different. I just watch out, like, how does Jesus interact with the other of His time? And I'm informed by that more than anything.

Al: Yeah. And there was love and listening and all of that is part of it.

Well, you know, it’s interesting. So I know we've had an opportunity to work with Miles McPherson. I've read The Third Option. I do recommend that to our audience. And Pastor Miles McPherson is with the Rock Church in San Diego and African American, and the book tells his story, which is fascinating. And Tim Keller at Redeemer. We've had a chance to work with Redeemer. And what a great author and pastor, no question. Generous Justice. Thank you very much, Marcus.

Well, this has really been a great conversation, Marcus. I appreciate it. Starting off with your life has been God's plan from the beginning, is the way you describe it. Amen to that. And also, the way, you know, we started off our conversation around diversity and how recruiting diverse voices toward the mission that you have as an organization is the first step. And to ask questions, particularly, how can you contribute to our organization? That is a great question to really kind of flesh out how a diverse voice will fit in and help your organization move forward. And your advice to us of don't recruit for the sake of diversity, but recruit for the mission, that will take you a long way and much further. No question. Yep. And even the definition that you had, diversity is the creative genius of God. And if we're going to follow the creative genius of God, that it would include diversity. And yes, there is this buzzword. DEI is a buzzword. And sometimes people are just kind of reticent to even talk about it. But it's all about reconciliation, which is the work of God, and how we can be shepherding the people that God has entrusted to us, how we should be helping to reconcile with God and other people that are around us. And, you know, there's a real benefit, and that's problem solving. And really, reconciliation is also about being discipled and how we can grow in the process.

Yeah. Well, anyway, lots of great information. Let me ask you, based on all we've talked about, you know, what's burning in your heart that you'd like to add that we've talked about so far?

Marcus: I think, I mean, as a pastor, I always say, and the gospel has diversity embedded in it. You know, we're all being saved into God's Kingdom, which is a multicultural Kingdom, people from every nation, tribe, and tongue. The Great Commission, our assignment from Jesus himself, diversity is embedded in that. He says, “Go ye, therefore, and teach all nations,” not just the people who look like me, who act like me, who have the same background and experiences as me, but to go and teach all nations. It’s not just a suggestion. It really is a command from Jesus for us to be diverse and to engage in these conversations with people who are different from us. It is part of the Great Commission. So as a pastor, I say, go out there and complete that Great Commission; go out there and teach all nations about the love of Christ, about the gospel.

Al: Amen.

Well, Marcus, I want to thank you for your contributions today. Most of all, I appreciate your commitment to serving God's Kingdom by pointing us to the biblical framework for diversity and heightening the value of reconciliation, you know, so that the whole body of Christ can impact our culture and world. So thanks for taking your time out today to speak in the lives of so many listeners.

Marcus: Thank you.

Outro: The Flourishing Culture Leadership Podcast is sponsored by Best Christian Workplaces. If you need support building a flourishing workplace culture, please visit workplaces.org for more information.

We'll see you again next week for more valuable content to help you develop strong leaders and build a flourishing workplace culture.

Al: You'll want to tune in next week as we talk with Danny de Armas, the executive pastor of the innovative First Baptist, Orlando. Danny and I will discuss how building front-line effectiveness builds and leads to a flourishing culture.