Transcript: 3 Keys to Become a Learning Leader // Tami Heim, Christian Leadership Alliance

Flourishing Culture Leadership Podcast

3 Keys to Become a Learning Leader

May 15, 2023

Tami Heim

Intro: Hello, leader. Do you feel like your personal growth is in a frozen state? Well, listen in today as we talk with leadership expert Tami Heim, the CEO of the Christian Leadership Alliance. She highlights the importance of learning leaders for the benefit not only of the leader but also their organization.

Welcome: Welcome to the Flourishing Culture Leadership Podcast, your home for open, honest, and insightful conversations to help develop your leadership, your team, and build a flourishing workplace culture.

Al Lopus: Hello, I'm Al Lopus, the co-founder of the Best Christian Workplaces and author of the book Road to Flourishing: Eight Keys to Boost Employee Engagement and Well-Being. And as you know, I'm passionate about helping leaders create engaged, flourishing workplaces. So thanks for joining us today.

As a leader, you have to keep your focus on doing what is important and, oftentimes, pulled into the urgent demands of the day. An important quality of leaders who are successful over the long haul is to keep on learning. And today on the Flourishing Culture Leadership Podcast, we’ll learn from a CEO of an organization that equips Christian leaders. Listen in to hear how you can incorporate life-long learning into your leadership. A learning posture can keep you filled up, even as you're pouring into others.

Well, I'm delighted today to welcome Tami Heim to the Flourishing Culture Leadership Podcast. Tami is the president and CEO of the Christian Leadership Alliance. Tami is the president and CEO of CLA since 2012, now 11 years, and her career includes executive leadership experience in technology, marketing, publishing, and even retail industries. She served as a partner at the A Group-Brand Development, the executive vice president and chief publishing officer for Thomas Nelson Publishers, and before that, the president of Borders.

Hi, Tami, and welcome.

Tami Heim: Oh, thanks so much, Al. You know, it is always a delight to have an opportunity to gauge with you in this kind of a conversation. So thanks for having me.

Al: Well, I'm really looking forward to our conversation, Tami, as we've had similar conversations in the past. And as I've worked with you now over the last 11 years at CLA, you have a rich leadership experience, and there are so many topics that we could address. But today, let's focus on leaders as learners. We've heard that phrase. We've heard leaders are readers, but let's go with leaders are learners, because there's a lot of ways to learn. And let's start with hearing about your most-recent CLA Conference, the Outcomes Conference, that was in Chicago just at the end of March this year. I know you cover lots of topics in the keynotes and the workshops, and there's lots of key ideas that kind of rise to the top throughout a Conference as the Holy Spirit kind of brings things together for Christian leaders to wrestle with and learn from. But what struck you this year as a distinct thread or theme from this year's event?

Tami: Well, thanks for being part of that event, Al, and just all you and your organization bring to it. Just for a little context, I mean, we actually, it takes us 18 months to prepare those Conferences, and it begins with the venue and a theme. And then, we watch God begin to knit it all together until it's time to actually go to the Conference. And this year the theme was entrusted, and our scriptural foundation for that was 2 Timothy 2:2, when Paul was writing to Timothy, and he says to him, “All the things that you've heard me say in the presence of many witnesses entrust to reliable people who will be qualified to teach others.”

And if you think about it, that so captures the heart and the spirit of CLA. But we felt like there was something significant about entrusted, and especially in this time and place. As you know, we've gone through several years now where there's just been a lot of uncertainty, and I'm not sure that there's complete clarity even today.

And so as we were praying about what God would do, I think it came out strong in the very first general session. Dr. Mark Jobe was our first keynote. And for those that are not familiar with Dr. Jobe, he's the president of Moody Bible Institute. He's also the pastor of New Life Community Church that has many, many sites throughout Chicagoland. And then he's also the founder of New Life Centers, which really looks to serve the underserved children in urban areas. So Dr. Jobe himself kind of embodies all the different kinds of professionals that show up at the Outcomes Conference.

And I had talked to him before the event, but he didn't really play his full hand in terms of telling me exactly where he felt God was going. But I was struck that he would go back into Samuel and would break down Saul’s story. And I think what was so relevant to me is the fact that Saul was chosen, Saul was anointed, but he did not succeed in what he was called to do, because of his insecurities. And Dr. Jobe really camped on this issue of insecurities and how that was a stumbling block. And often our insecurities come from this tension that we have between fear and pride. And as he was sharing, you could see how that had marked all of Saul's life. And as the Conference continued, I could see God getting to that same point through many of the different speakers.

As you know, after every general session, we process, what did we hear, why did it matter, and what changes because of it? And I know at my table, after we heard that message, we were compelled to actually confess our insecurities to one another and repent and to pray and just renew our commitment to trust God. And it felt like if we didn't settle that business in that very first session, we could in fact miss what God had for us. And as I said, we felt that come out again, again in Carmen and Mutua and then even how Ken ended it, but also, throughout some of the things that were happening in the workshops.

As you know, we met with the advisory council before the Conference started, and we said, “What are some of the top issues?” And so many things came out that were really about personal leadership. And it just so happens this is the third year that we've offered that track, and for the third year, those sessions were the most attended at the Conference. So I think after this hard time people have been in they’re really working on, like, “I need to be strengthened. I need to be fortified. I need to get back to where I know God wants me to be.”

And even when you think about the CEO Forum, Roger Parrott did a brilliant job of just talking about the uncertainty of time and kind of deconstructing the idea that we have to be married to a strategic plan, but we need to be married to a solid plan that allows God to lead and guide us. So I just felt like it was, you know, we have to be strong, we have to be courageous, and we really have to set aside the insecurities and trust God so that we can be faithful with what He's entrusted to us.

Al: Yeah. Entrusted to reliable people who will also be qualified to teach others. Boy, that's a great scripture, a great verse for us to even reflect on.

Tami: Mm-hmm.

Al: And reliable people who will also be qualified to teach others. Kind of like learn one, do one, teach one in our approach. Yeah, that's great, and great feedback. I love the CEO Forum, really the whole Conference, Tami, but yeah, the CEO Forum. And we learned a lot about how we can be just pinned down with a strategic plan that's really not effective, especially as Dr. Parrott said in January of 2020, when you developed your five-year strategic plan, how did that work out for you? And four months later, COVID comes, and it would have thrown the whole thing in the trash can. Wow.

You've learned a lot about and been around many great leaders in your career. You started just in the marketplace and in publishing and now the Christian Leadership Alliance. And what are some, from your perspective and your experience, what are some common attributes, character qualities, or practices that you see in leaders continue to learn throughout the seasons of their life? We've seen leaders, I know, that stop learning, and that's usually a trainwreck. But what about those leaders who are just continuous learners and maybe someone we would call a learning leader?

Tami: I feel like I've been so blessed to be a student of those type of leaders, because that really reflects Christian Leadership alliance. And 86% of our membership have degrees beyond an undergraduate degree. I mean, they are hungry and thirsty to continue to learn, and they appreciate it. But there are also men and women who have been shaped by hard and painful places in their lives. So they’ve had to go through the fire to be refined, and that's been part of their transformational journey.

And when you break that down, I feel like there are three things that are very evident in a learning leader. First of all, when they encounter those really difficult places, their first response is that they need to surrender that and understand that God is in control. And because of that, they desire to explore and understand what's happening. So they're trying to seek God and make sense of it. And then as they do that, they embrace the uncertainty of what's ahead and that they know that God will guide them and will continue to show them. So I think learning leaders surrender, they explore, they embrace. I mean, they see the world differently because of the strength of their faith, and they're willing to investigate.

That reminds me of a time we taught our adopted daughter from Haiti. We took her to Hawaii about a year and a half after she was here, and we went to the Big Island. And we were on a journey to get to the green sand beach. And it was a long journey, and we didn't know how long it would be. And as we were going, to make our way to this place that we could not see, people would be coming the other way, and of course, our question was, are we there yet? How close is it? Are we almost there? And we encountered a mother and daughter who said, “We gave up. We're giving up. We don't know how much more it is, but we know how far we've come, and we don't know that we would have the energy to keep going and come back.” And I remember we pondered that as a family because we were pretty weary. But we decided to press on, and once we got there—and it reminds me so much that it's a beautiful beach, and it's green, and the waves are especially high. And I remember watching my daughter and my husband down there in the waves. And the waves were, like, I don't know, 10 to 15 feet high, and they just kept crushing them. But they kept standing there. And then eventually, Dale took Sonya's hand, and they went out to the water, and they got behind the waves.

And it reminds me so much that, you know, we have this tendency to resist or fly away from change and uncertainty, and it just crushes us. But when we learn to embrace it and get behind it and ride it, it's so much easier because the resistance isn't there. And I just think of watching that, and that breakthrough in their mind when they said, “No, let's go out, and let's ride this in,” and how much joy there was in that whole experience. So I think learners are different in how they approach the hard and difficult places.

Al: Three keys to become a learning leader by Tami Heim: surrender, explore, and embrace. I see a blog coming up here. Yeah. And I love the image that you just described of rather than standing in front of the wave and being knocked over by it, get behind it and ride it in. That's a great image.

You know, Tami, we know that leaders can grow in self-awareness through getting feedback. In fact, I'm just always aware that adults learn a lot from feedback from others. And so we've got a 360 leadership tool that we use. Now almost 2,000 leaders have had that experience, and we have other tools. But what practices or tools do you recommend for leaders to get feedback and apply what they've learned to keep growing as a leader?

Tami: Well, first, I want to just commend the work of Best Christian Workplaces and the way that you are on top of being catalysts for how that feedback is processed for individuals and organizations. For me it always starts to the center of who we are. And so for many years I've always asked the question, Lord, what is it about my leadership that has contributed to the situation or the outcomes I'm experiencing right now? And it's that moment where you've heard that leaders look in the mirror first. And when you do that, you erase this feeling of, “I'm a victim. This is happening to me. It's out of my control.” But when you go to God and say, “What is it about me?” He is pretty quick to reveal those things. And it's important as a leader that you understand where you may have misstepped, but also where, you know, you made the right choices, and it had a great income. So I think caring for your own heart has to come first.

And then, I think the one on one is so important, and I know that's a pretty standard practice, but have one on one with your team and your staff, not only to coach and counsel them, but for them to reveal what is it that you can do to help them be better, and also to be able to open your heart. And I think that takes real courage for a leader to open your heart and say, “I'm going to receive, believing that the feedback that I receive, where maybe even if the person intends it or not, is God's way of helping me, is a stand for my greatness and my development and my growth in Him.” So listening to the one-on-one feedback is obviously important.

And then, as you mentioned, a 360 degree so you can see how people see you that work for you, your peers and your supervisor, and process that all together I think is always instructive.

And then, the formal surveys that we do. And I'm a huge advocate and fan of the work that you do relative to trying to tap into culture and understand what we need to do so that we can provide environments where leaders not only flourish, but they're thriving. And that it is satisfying that we're just cultivating a place that I think delights the heart of the Father.

Al: Well, I know, Tami, you've been on the board of Lead Like Jesus in the past, and I know Ken Blanchard talks a lot about if you're going to be a servant leader, you've got to actually seek feedback so that you know how to more effectively serve those that you're leading. So, yeah, exactly.

Tami: To that point, too, Al, I'll just build on it, that sometimes in our Christian space we want to be tender in that delivery. And I think we should be loving, but I think that there's truth that also there's many times when I'm talking to someone, and I know they want to tell me something, and it might be hard for them to say, and I'm always like, “Just tell me.” And I think when we release people and say, “Whatever you say to me, I'm going to believe you're saying it because you care about me, you care about the ministry, you care about God's work,” and that permission is so important to grant people. And there's just freedom in it, and there's freedom to receive it, too, because just even saying it prepares your heart to get that feedback.

Al: Well, I love your thoughts here. I mean, exactly, what is it about my leadership that contributes to this situation? That’s a great question. And if we're defensive, we're always pointing the other way first. And I think that’s a great message for leaders, you know, “Okay. Well, let's just look in the mirror and see maybe, how did my leadership impact this situation, and how are others experiencing my leadership in a way that maybe I don't even understand or know?” And by getting feedback, and one on ones getting feedback from 360 reviews that are impartial, that are anonymous, so that you can actually begin to see how you're impacting others, then you learn from it. You're able to learn from it. And protecting your heart in that process is also a key step. Yeah. As you've seen, Tami, I know in your leadership roles in large organizations, it's important to have that kind of feedback. And that's how we grow. That's how we learn.

Speaking of leaders that are learners, I really like one of your board members. I know you serve on many nonprofit boards, and you've met and worked with great leaders. But one of them is Laura Gardner, the president of Joni and Friends. She's the chairman of your board, or your board chair. So thinking from a board perspective, how can a board encourage the CEO and leadership team to be continuous learners?

Tami: Well, it's interesting. What I find, and I'm currently teaching the CCNL on leadership, which includes personal leadership, executive leadership, and board governance. And Laura is actually taking that course as part of her renewal right now. So it's going to be a lot of fun, I'm sure.

But I think that sometimes boards get caught up, and they get involved at the wrong levels. And it's so important that boards remember that they have this duty of obedience and loyalty and care, and that their first obligation is to the mission of the organization.

And then, the second most important thing they do is the hiring of the CEO, and the care and feeding of the CEO after that hire has been made, and to be deliberate and to really understand what is intentionally being done for that leader to continue to grow. And encouraging and helping facilitate opportunities for that to happen makes a big difference. In fact, I know that ECFA is looking at different ways in the future that part of the requirements of being even an accredited organization will include, how does the board approach the care of the CEO, and how are they investing in their leadership development? because the law of the lid. You need to keep growing in order to grow the organizations where you serve. So the board has a huge responsibility as well as their own development as a board.

And we are blessed, obviously, having Laura as our chairman. Joni and Friends just sets the standard in so many different ways. And she is truly—we've been blessed with great board chairs, and they've always been appropriate for the season that we've been in, and God had called her at just the right moment for Christian Leadership Alliance.

Al: And let me say to leaders, okay, here's a leader of a great ministry, and Laura is taking an online course right now. You know, she's got plenty to do. We all know how busy we are. But here she is. She's carving out time to learn herself. So a great example of a leader learner.

I trust you’re enjoying our podcast today. We’ll be right back after an important word for leaders.

Female: As we come through the COVID-19 crisis, leaders everywhere are asking, how do we understand the tensions our employees are experiencing coming back to work? How do we keep our employees engaged, hold on to our best talent, and position ourselves to thrive as an organization going forward? If you're looking for a way forward, the Best Christian Workplaces Institute can guide you onto the road to a flourishing workplace.

The first step to begin the journey is our well-known Employee Engagement Survey. This proven online tool pinpoints where your organization is already strong and where you can improve your employees’ workplace experience, resulting in more productive people. That's right. You'll have more engaged, productive, and fulfilled people. Time-consuming guesswork won't get you there. Instead, let us help you with a fact-based, hope-inspiring action plan that only our Employee Engagement Survey and skillful coaching can provide. Sign up now to begin the journey to build a flourishing workplace culture and a thriving organization.

Now back to my conversation with CLA CEO, Tami Heim.

So let's talk a little bit more about learning through mentoring, and that's another wave that I know has been on your agenda. And I know that you and I have both benefited from the mentoring of others, and we've also been involved in mentoring younger leaders over the years. So what makes for a great mentoring relationship, and how can leaders put themselves in situations where they are growing and receiving in this way?

Tami: Well, I certainly feel like there becomes a season where you absolutely have to start giving back in one way or another. And for me, mentoring and discipleship are very much the same kind of experiences.

I think there's three ways that mentoring can take place. The first one is the more traditional, where we have a wise guide, someone who's farther along; they've had more experience; we want to learn from how they did things and how they made things happen. And that's a traditional role. And I think we need to look for individuals that we need to invest in that way.

But then, there's also the side guide, and this is someone who is running the race at your pace. So they may be at the same type of organization. It could be the same-size organization. It could be an organization that does the kinds of things that you do. But that life on life is so valuable as you're growing and learning together.

And then, I love the surprise guide, someone that you least expect that, “Oh, am I really going to learn something from this individual?” because maybe they're brand new at what they're doing, and “How am I going to do that?” And I made a commitment two years ago that every Friday I would rotate through. So I have four people that I'm engaging with every month on a Friday. And one is a wise guide, I have a side guide, and I have two surprise guides.

And so the approach to mentoring is listening and learning and asking good questions and inviting those that you're mentoring to invest back in you. It's like anything, Al. We always say, “Oh, well, I mentored this person, and it was just the most incredible experience for me.” It's like when we go to a third-world country, we think we're going to go and bring joy, and we walk away with more than we ever thought we could hold, right? And I think the same is true with mentoring. And it's just the commitment to the one on one and really understanding what people value, communicating the things that are of value to you, and then just processing life together.

The other thing that kind of emerges up, which is kind of like a mentoring, is a battle buddy. And I remember in 2016 I was in the CEO Forum, and I was listening to someone. We were at a round table, and they were talking about, “Well, my battle buddy and I…” I'm like, “What's that all about? Like, tell me about a battle buddy.” And he said, “Oh, we talk every week. We pray for each other. We know everything that's going on. I know what he's doing this week. He knows what I'm doing this week. And we intercede for each other, and we unconditionally accept each other.” And I remember sitting there thinking, “Oh, my goodness. I need a battle buddy.” And I said, “Lord, I need a battle buddy.”

And I got up from that meeting, and I was walking across, and there was a woman sitting at a table, who I met prior to CLA, and then she went through the CCNL, and I got to know her through there. And the Lord—I mean, I just, you know that moment where you're just like, “There she is”? And Al, what do you do in that moment? You're either like, “Okay, Lord. I'll make note of that and follow up later,” and I got really impressed. I got down on my knees, and it's that awkward conversation. It's like, “Oh, hi. How are you doing? I was just over here learning about battle buddies, and I just asked God, and I just wonder if you might do it.” How awkward, right? To be obedient in that minute? And she looked at me—

Al: Yeah.

Tami: —tears welled up in her eyes, and she said, “I don't know what you call it, but that's exactly what I've been praying for.” And we have met every week for seven years, praying for each other, interceding for each other. And so it's a combination of wise and side and surprise when you find a battle buddy to do life with.

Al: Isn't that great? Yeah. One of those God-ordained moments, and you just know you need to do it, and then you experience the benefit of it. How about that? So wise guides, side guides, surprise guides, and battle buddies, those are great things for us to think about.

Well, of course, another leadership-growth factor is giving opportunities to the next tier of leaders coming up in the organization, and perhaps even the best way to develop leaders. So mentoring may be part of this, but there are also other ways to encourage leadership growth. So how can senior leaders provide opportunities for growth and learning for emerging leaders that are coming up and making sure that they're set up well for future responsibilities? So how can we get this kind of investment and growth going with emerging leaders?

Tami: Well, thank you, Al, as you have demonstrated succession planning at its best at the senior level, but for even putting it on the table, that we need to be thinking about succession plans at all levels within the organization. And I really believe it comes from what Eric Geiger many years ago described as, it has to begin with a leader in the organization, not something that is relegated to the chief people officer in an organization, but the CEO has to have a passion and a conviction for developing leaders within the organization. And from that becomes a culture. And then from that culture, there's an intentional construct. You know, it grieves me when I talk to organizations and they say, “Oh, yeah, we have this training-and-development fund, and we let people pick what they want to do this year—like, do you want to go to this conference? Do you want to take this course?—versus being very deliberate.”

And, you know, I know we just talked about Laura Gardner and Joni and Friends, but when you think about it, Joni has always had a heart and passion for developing people, to help them become more like Christ. So she has a conviction, Laura now shares that same conviction, Doug Mazza had that conviction when he was there, and that permeates the culture. And then they found an operating system in Lead Like Jesus that just says this best expresses. But then they even move beyond that. So, you know, I mentioned Laura's going through the CCNL course. Well, she's in there with three other people from her organization right now, and they're always going through because it's, like, we want you to build your mission-critical competencies to expand your leadership capacity. So we want you to have a heart. We want you to be skilled. And then by doing that, Joni and Friends has constructed a leadership pipeline so that they're intentionally moving people along. And I think that's what's most important.

And what breaks my heart is sometimes people in times of stress will cut the leadership development first, and that's usually when people need it the most. Like, I think of when we had to flip and go digital in 2020 and we had 30 days to do it, how gracious our God is that we could bring leaders together, that we're in the middle of chaos, to minister to each other and just be anchored by God's Word and sound, wise thinking.

So it has to be, again, a conviction, a culture, and a construct. And if those are not in place, it is very difficult for an organization to create a leadership pipeline that will help the ministry grow and continue to increase its impact in the world.

Al: Yeah, Tami, I couldn't agree more. This is so important in Christian organizations and in developing that next level. And as I've studied succession, there's no success without succession. And how do you develop success and succession that's developing those emerging leaders behind you and actually investing in them? And that's much more than just sending them to a conference every year. It’s actually, that’s important, don’t get me wrong, but there’s so much more. And I love the leadership pipeline. That's very much in our FLOURISH model of outstanding talent. How do you develop outstanding talent in your organization? So, yeah, let’s have leadership pipelines.

Tami: Well, your point on accountability. So there's the intentionality, but then the accountability. So when people do something, how do they bring it back, and how do you hold them accountable for the things that they've learned? So that has to be a piece of it as well.

Al: Yeah, no question. Yeah. An important part. And again, you're bringing back new ideas, and don't let them die.

But talking about new ideas, let's talk about learning leaders in the future, and what do you see ahead for 2024 and even beyond? And I know CLA, you've got your online-learning program, the Outcomes Conference, and now an online conference for people around the world. What do you see in the next few years in terms of different learning opportunities for leaders, particularly, let's say, Christian leaders? Will it all be online? Will there be different types of learning experiences? Give us an insight into your thinking on this, Tami.

Tami: Well, for us, our vision is we have 47 years of biblically based, timeless understanding about leadership and leadership development. And we're looking for ways to take those ideas and package them, and then send them on a digital bridge so that they can reach a next generation of leader, that they might be able to open up that cargo and experience that foundation that they can now innovate and think differently in a way that's right for what God's called them to in the season that they're in. And I think because there are so many different options, it's more important than ever that we think about what are the most-important relative ideas, and then, how do we use all the channels to get those ideas out there?

So for instance, some people still love to read; others like to listen to a podcast; others like to experience some things in real life; others like to be self-paced. So I think as leadership educators, we just have to be thinking about, what are the critical things, what's the pathway that people can grow in their wisdom and knowledge, and how do we figure out how to meet them where they are? So it's like being like Jesus, when there's a lot of technology, it's like, how does this content express itself in a variety of ways based on how people want to receive it?

I do believe online learning, I mean, we've seen that flourish for years now. But I also think that there's a lot to be said about what happens in conferences. And I think a lot of the surge right now is people understand, “I don't want to be isolated,” that there's a richness in the conversations I have, when we can have these collaborative discussions about how to solve problems or how to share best practices. And there's a place for all.

Now right now, our position is, is that we're not trying to go super hybrid. We think there's a sacredness in the one on one and what's live, and then there's also this understanding of what the environment is like when you're online, and just trying to understand and respect that both ways. But I believe there's ways that training’s going to take place that you and I haven't even imagined yet. And we just need to, again, we need to explore it, then we need to embrace it, and we need to adapt.

Al: I think one of your points is basically we all need learning and growth, training and development, whatever you want to call it, but there's just different channels that become available through technology over time. So, okay, let’s use those channels based on what our needs are. And so reading, podcasts, classroom, online, and conferences. And I agree. I think what I experienced at the CLA Outcomes Conference this year was kind of a rebirth of people coming back after COVID and understanding how important that is and just the table conversations, not only after the keynotes but in each of the workshops, the table conversations that went on is where so much rich learning was experienced. Yeah, exactly. Wow.

Tami: We can't take credit for that, Al. That is God at work. And the sharpening and being sharpened taking place, that is God's hand, not ours. We just create the places and spaces where that exchange can happen.

Al: Yeah, absolutely. And I'm thankful for your service and your work to let God work in people's lives.

Well, let's talk a little about, you know, I mentioned earlier there's the old phrase, leaders are readers. Well, reading great books is important, and even learning from movies can be a way for leaders to keep abreast of current ideas. And I do appreciate that last year, CLA featured my book, Road to Flourishing, as the book of the year, and that was just a great experience. But what are you reading these days, Tami, that you found helpful in your leadership? And are there some good leadership lessons in any movies or other venues that you may have seen recently?

Tami: Well, Al, I feel so fortunate that a lot of times I have the opportunity to read books before they ever take their first breath on a shelf. And so interesting enough, right now I'm reading The Ways of the Leader: Four Practices to Bring People Together and Break New Ground. It's a new book that'll be coming out by NavPress, by Bill Mowry. And again, he is trying to frame this time that we're in and how do we respond to it. And so it's timeless messages recast in a timely way for leaders to understand them relative to what they're experiencing right now. So I'm always grateful to see that because when you get the advanced reader copy, you don't have the fully edited, the super shiny, polished, and I feel like often in that, you see more of the heart of the author, and you can hear their voice. So I spend a lot of time just reading manuscripts.

From a movie standpoint, I have to tell you, my husband and I were completely undone. We went and saw Jesus Revolution, and after following Jesus together for 43 years, I mean, we really are kind of that, not even the next generation. I mean, we were just at the tail end of that movement. And I remember as new believers in Jesus, we were searching for Chuck Smith on the radio to teach us the things that we needed to know. And when I saw that movie, obviously there was a rush of many memories, and I could see my salvation story against the bigger thing that was happening that God was doing in the world. But in that movie, there were so many leadership lessons. And by far my favorite was when Chuck knew something had to change in the church, right? Pastor Chuck’s like, “We're fading away.” And he could even see he was losing his daughter. And then the hippies come along. And you get elders in the church saying, “These people have dirty feet, and they're coming in, and they're getting our carpets dirty,” you know, all the things. And then that next scene, you see Chuck washing their feet as they came in, which was so powerful on so many levels.

But here he was, again we go back to a learning leader, is that he knew something was happening, and he was willing to surrender his construct for “This is what church looks like.” He was willing to explore a new way to reach out and love people. And then, he comes back around, and he embraces them. And it releases this entire movement, right? And then, you see leaders raising, you know, being called out into that, like a Greg Laurie. And I was just so moved to see the leadership lessons in that movie being personally affected. But they found a way to answer the questions that all of us ache for: who am I, why am I here, what is going on in this world, and how do I have a place in it? And for a generation that seemed and appeared to be lost, they answered those questions.

Al: Yeah. Yeah. It was fascinating to me. I came to faith in 1972, right at the heart of kind of when this movie was made. And while I wasn't in Southern California, I was in Erie, Pennsylvania, and that's a lot different environment, that's for sure. But the sense of revival that just swept across the country. And I, of course, it’s my prayer that happens again. And maybe we're in the middle of it now. Sure. But let's just hope that it is. Yeah. And I was struck, you know, as his elder was telling him about the importance of keeping the carpet clean, and the actor said, “So we're concerned about saving the carpet.”

Tami: Yes. Perspective.

Al: “And we’re not so concerned about, you know, actually saving souls, and we're worried about saving the carpet.” Yeah. So, but, yeah, washing the feet was so, such a moving scene, and of course a scene of Jesus at the Last Supper.

Well, Tami, I know that in your ministry, you and your husband are involved in your local church, and you've also led mission trips to Haiti. You've mentioned to Haiti, and you've adopted now your youngest daughter from Haiti several years ago. And it's been fun to kind of watch you on Facebook and see her grow over the years. And what a beautiful young woman she's turning out to be. So but we hear so many stories of Haiti and the ongoing challenges for daily life in that country. How have you stayed engaged in the ministry in Haiti, and how can people be praying for that ministry and even for the country?

Tami: Well, it's been very difficult for us because we've really not been able to enter back into there since 2018. With the fall of the government, the rise of gangs basically ruling that area, how dangerous it’s become to even go into Port-au-Prince and then try to find your way to other places, it's been very heartbreaking. I mean, we love those people, and our particular ministry is in Jeremie, which is about 110 miles from Port-au-Prince. And you can fly in there. But even the mission flights there ceased. People have really had to shut down.

But even in the midst of that, the Haitians that we support that are able to be on the ground, we can still see flourishing happening. So in the midst of all of this, we were able to go from a more institutional form of orphan care into transferring children into homes and building a widow's village, where they're living more like families. We've seen children do exceptionally well in school, and now we have several that are actually in Cuba, studying to be doctors, who have a hope of coming back to Haiti and ministering in that way. We’ve taken children that maybe because of malnourishment and other reasons when they were very young, can't learn well, so we've taught them trades. And we have a group of boys right now that live in a transition home, and they moved out of the transition home, and now they have a bakery in downtown Jeremie, and they live above it, and so they're developing their own independence. We've taught girls how to sew, and so they're sewing uniforms for the schools, and just trying to help them have skills that will help them be more self-sustaining and to have a greater self-worth.

And then, God is at work because churches continue to be planted. People continue to come to Christ in the midst of that great oppression. And that's how God works. I do believe that it will take something much more significant intervention, maybe with the support of another country, in order to really change the whole of the country. But God has not slowed down. And we've just found creative ways that we can get what people need into the country just to make sure that they're cared for.

But it's so hard not to be able to go, so hard not to be with them.

Al: And you've been to Haiti. You've gone to Haiti how many times?

Tami: Oh, probably 50 times, easily, since the earthquake.

Al: Yeah, yeah. So there’s a real heart connection there. Yeah. Well, as you say, God can work even in those difficult situations.

Well, so, Tami, we've learned so much from our conversation. Starting with entrusted, how we're entrusted, and also to teach others in the ways that we've been entrusted. So and being learning leaders, the Tami Heim’s three keys to learning leadership is surrender, explore, and embrace uncertainty. And of course, we're all in a need for that to surrender where we are so that we can explore and then embrace the future. And of course to learn, we need feedback, and how feedback can really help us as we look at every situation. I loved your comment: how has my leadership contributed to this situation? and to look at that soberly and honestly, as well as getting and listening to one-on-one feedback or a 360-degree feedback, and how servant leaders need to seek feedback from those that they're serving. So great advice on boards, on mentoring, on emerging leaders, on learning. And one of the best channels as we look to the future.

So, Tami, this has just been a great conversation. I appreciate it so much. Is there anything you'd like to add that we haven't talked about that you want to put a sharp point on?

Tami: Well, that I think it's an exciting time for us to be here. I always think of the entire timeline of eternity, and God said, “No, this is your place and your assignment.” And every day I give thanks to God for the people that we get to do this work with, the Best Christian Workplaces. I feel like our hearts are so aligned, and you're such a great measurement of how effective we are in doing those things. This is just a time for us to be bold, to be unafraid, to trust God, and I really believe to partner, to do the things that we can do and then get out of the way so God can deliver the outcomes that He desires. And so we just have to think differently about being entrusted doesn't mean that we own it and that it's all on us; it means that we get to be part of it. And while it's so uncertain, it's part of the great adventure of following Jesus and watching Him work.

Al: Yep. As He said, “I have come to give you life and life to the full.” And it is an adventure, there is no question.

Well, Tami, thanks so much. Thanks for your contributions today. Most of all, I appreciate your commitment to serving God's Kingdom by equipping Christian leaders. You are fostering excellence in Christian leadership, which has had a tremendous impact on the Kingdom of God. And I just think about the impact that we've seen over the last 11 years at CLA. So thanks for taking your time out today and speaking in the lives of so many listeners.

Tami: Thanks, Al. I'm so grateful we get to do it together.

Outro: The Flourishing Culture Leadership Podcast is sponsored by Best Christian Workplaces. If you need support building a flourishing workplace culture, please visit workplaces.org for more information.

We'll see you again next week for more valuable content to help you develop strong leaders and build a flourishing workplace culture.

Al: Be sure to tune in to next week's episode with the president and CEO of a flourishing ministry, Bible League International. We'll learn how Jos Snoep has developed communication strategies that has enabled him to build trust and retain his very talented team.