Transcript: How Men and Women Lead Better Together for Kingdom Impact // Tami Heim, Christian Leadership Alliance

Flourishing Culture Leadership Podcast

“How Men and Women Lead Better Together for Kingdom Impact“

December 16, 2024

Tami Heim

Intro: What is it about your leadership that creates the outcomes you see? Well, in today's episode we're exploring powerful insights on developing women leaders, with Tami Heim, who shares stories and strategies that will inspire you to look deeper, embrace mentorship, and discover how God's design for men and women working together brings Kingdom impact. Don't miss this chance to gain wisdom that could reshape the way you lead.

Welcome: Welcome to the Flourishing Culture Leadership Podcast, your home for open, honest, and insightful conversations to help develop your leadership, your team, and build a flourishing workplace culture.

Al Lopus: I'm Al Lopus, the co-founder of the Best Christian Workplaces and author Road to Flourishing. And my heart is for helping Christian leaders like you create engaged, flourishing workplaces. And this season on the Flourishing Culture Leadership Podcast, we're exploring the most impactful element of a flourishing culture, and that's inspirational leadership.

I’m delighted to welcome Tami Heim to our podcast today. Tami’s the president of the Christian Leadership Alliance.

Throughout our conversation, you'll hear Tami talk about insight into building cross-gender collaboration, practical strategies for leadership development, guidance on cultivating resilient faith, and leadership and empowerment to embrace mentorship roles.

I think you're going to love this interview with Tami. But before we jump in, this podcast is proudly sponsored by the Best Christian Workplaces’ Employee Engagement Survey. Don't wait. This is the perfect time to gather vital insights from your employees to assess the health of your workplace culture. Are you ready to transform your culture? Well, visit workplaces.org to learn more and to start your journey to become a flourishing workplace today.

And hello to our new listeners. Thanks for joining us as we honor your investment of time by creating valuable episodes like this.

And now let me just tell you a little bit more about Tami Heim. Tami’s the president and CEO of the Christian Leadership Alliance. Christian Leadership Alliance convenes and trains Christian nonprofits and their employees across all levels of experience. They provide a Christ-centered, collaborative community where members can share strategic advice, solve challenges, and develop new approaches. Tami’s been the president of CLA since 2012. Her career includes executive-leadership experience in the technology, marketing, publishing, and retail industries. She served as president of Borders, a partner at The A Group, executive vice president and chief publishing officer for Thomas Nelson Publishers, amongst others. She graduated from Purdue University and entered the management-training program at the Federated Department Stores and continued to serve in various leadership roles until she left in 1996. Tami is certified in nonprofit governance through the Kellogg School of Management at Northwestern University, and she also has experience serving on a number of nonprofit boards.

So, here’s my conversation with Tami Heim.

Tami, it's great to have you back on the podcast. I'm looking forward to our conversation today.

Tami Heim: Thanks so much, Al. I wholeheartedly enjoy the conversations we've been able to have and how they lead to flourishing and thriving in the lives of others, so thank you for that.

Al: Absolutely. Well, Tami, as we focus today on developing Christian leaders and the keys to developing Christian leaders, I'd like to start with your own leadership journey. I know a little bit about that journey. Several people do. But tell us a little bit more about your career path that includes leadership in the marketplace and now in Christian nonprofits. Give us a few of your experiences and maybe even mentoring relationships that helped you along the way.

Tami: Well, Al, I have to say, I've been so blessed to have people that were always willing to invest in me. You know, in my very early days, in my very first jobs, I was fortunate to have those who would always see more potential in me than I could ever see in myself. And I was often surprised when there was a teacher or a supervisor who was willing to entrust me with more than I could even imagine. But that confidence that they demonstrated in me always spurred me on.

And that question makes me think of, you know, being in a posture. And this is a posture that I think has marked my whole life and, I guess, the journey and the experiences that I had. And I've had good mentors in my life, and I had the fortune of having one that was with me over a 15-year period of my career. And you know what? That person was so hard on me. I mean, they encouraged me all the time, but they held me accountable at every turn. And I just knew whenever they were telling me something, it was because they were really standing for me and believing in them. And they always taught me, he taught me to always say, “All right, what is it about my leadership that's creating this outcome?” And that's a real look in the mirror. And I would say that that question and his prompting of that question caused me to look at every situation; and it shaped future responses in my behavior; and candidly, Al, sometimes it really brought me to points of repentance where, you know, it was sin and self in the way of things.

But I think what helped along the way is, first of all, I've always loved what I've done. And I think when leaders love what they're doing or anyone loves what they're doing, it's attractive. And people are, like, “Oh, here's somebody who's really on board, and I want to help them, and I want to serve them, and I want to be with them.” So that loving of what we do is attractive to people.

And then, I think understanding how what we do fits into a bigger picture, and my mind has always worked that way. And so I respect that others are counting on me for the job that I have to do, and I appreciate what others have to do so that I can complete my part. And I think that general love and respect helps.

And then, I love learning new things. I love new ideas. I love people that stretch. I love to listen and learn. And I think, again, that's something that becomes attractive in a career path is when people don't say, “I'm resistant to something,” but they're willing to step in and try something new.

And then, candidly, hard work. I mean, I work really hard at that. And so when I look at my career journey, you know, I started out in department-store retail, which is a lot of hard work and a lot of long hours.

And again, I had people that could see the best in me and, candidly, promoted me beyond what I thought I deserved or wanted or was seeking. And those were some significant opportunities for me to stretch myself.

And in the department-store business, I learned a lot about asking good questions. What is it that people need, and how do I take what we have to sell to match that need? And so I was always tuned in to listening.

Then, when I left retail and went into the book business, we were still selling things, but the big difference is they were selling products that were emotive. So when you think about a book, Al, you can probably list five that had a significant impact on your life. Like, I don't know, the Road to Flourishing or something like that probably really influenced your thinking. But books matter. Music matters. We have this score to our life, and they’re songs that take us back and transport us. And then, movies have the same inspirational impact. So I learned with the stewardship of products and services were that had this transformational quality.

Then, stepping into Thomas Nelson and Christian publishing, now I knew that it was still that emotive type of products, right? and content. But now if people embraced them, I knew that it had an internal outcome.

And so in that journey there was always favor, and I had the opportunity to grow and to expand my thinking and the scope of the things that I learned. But I think it really was being in that posture of loving it, wanting to learn more, willing to take on the hard jobs, and do the work.

And then, that led me to Christian Leadership Alliance, and I feel like all of it was boot camp for what I'm doing today. And it's now meeting the needs of leaders so that they have the resources and the skills to do what they need to do for a greater Kingdom impact.

Al: So, Tami, you mentioned retail and then Borders. So just give us some of the career stops along the way up until your big job at Borders.

Tami: Well, I started in retail. It was my very first job. I was 16. My first public debut was a talking Christmas tree. So I don't know that you can have more of an entry level than that, talking to children for 16 hours a day at Christmas.

But then I grew. I went to college. I graduated from college, and then I went into a management program. But I gave my life to Christ before I stepped into that role, which changed my mind about everything, and really worked my way up that ladder very quickly. Retail is the kind of business that performance is rewarded quickly. So I grew to higher levels of responsibility very fast there, and thought I would be there forever because I truly loved doing what I did.

And then, the opportunity was to come to Borders. And Borders at the time was just under $1 billion, and they wanted to double, and they needed someone that had the wisdom of creating the infrastructure and the leadership pipeline that might enable that kind of growth. So I got to go there and, like, write my first job as a territorial executive vice president. And after two years of doing that, then was asked to step into the president's role. And that was at a very high velocity time when Amazon was born, and it was the dot-com boom. So, huge disruption. And there was always disruption in retail, but this was super accelerated. And served there and totally loved what I did there.

And when I left there, I took a little bit of a reprieve. I stayed home. It was my daughter’s last year in high school, and that was a love letter to my soul. And then, as soon as she went back to work, doors opened, and I stepped into Christian publishing. And loved my time there. I was the chief publishing officer. And so I was overseeing all of the publishing divisions there and really got connected with Christian communicators and Bible projects and things that were wonderful.

And then, left there, took a little break again to get my daughter married, and then went into as a partner for a Web-tech firm. And that was getting the digital—because that was disruptive, and that was new, and that was new learning.

And then, it was from there I went on to work at Christian Leadership Alliance in January of 2012.

Al: That's quite a journey.

And so let's talk a little bit about mentoring. You had mentioned—and thanks for sharing—you had mentioned you had a key mentor for 15 years. I love the question, in fact, that your mentor said, “What was it about your leadership that caused that outcome?” And what a great mentor to not let you blame others or be a victim. I mean, that's such a great question. And I’d just encourage all of our leaders and listeners who are listening. So what is it about your leadership, especially when you're not really happy with the outcome, what was it about your leadership that caused that outcome?

Tami: Well, and if you think about it, Al, it's also a great question for a mentor because they aren't answering the question, because we think we can see and observe and know. But you learn so much more when you allow someone else to answer the question so that you can understand their thinking, and you can be a much wiser guide when you do.

Al: Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, asking good questions and then listening. You've already mentioned listening is a key.

So let's talk about mentoring and some of the important practices in leadership development that you see. What are some of the best practices or key factors that organizational leaders should be using in developing women leaders, particularly, and potential leaders in their organization?

Tami: I think a lot of that comes back to creating a mentoring culture. You can put together mentoring programs, but I find that they're not as effective as when it's something that organically evolves. And I know we did some structured mentoring that we attempted at Christian Leadership Alliance, and we had, like, over 200 matches. But the feedback was always, “Oh, if this could be something that would be organic.” And I think that how you set that culture is when you are in a place where you're cultivating trust—I know we talk a lot about trust—and where people, you understand their values; they understand your values; and then, when you are guiding them or you're working with them, they know that whatever you're going to tell them is for their own good. We all have the ability to receive feedback and instruction when we know that someone is standing for our greatness. And once that happens, you can always be even more direct. And I think that's really important in an environment, whether it's a male or female, that you can cultivate those kinds of relationships.

And then, I think, also, as a mentor or boss, being in a position that you're willing to open your heart and receive feedback too, because that matters. That strengthens the relationship. And mentoring’s come at different times and in different seasons. And there's the mentors that are the wise guides in our life, so they're running ahead of us, right? They've been there, they've done that, they know, and they can really help you navigate something.

And then, there's the mentors that are side guides. And I love those, where they're running the race with you. You're working it out together. What do you think about this? And you're kind of collaborating and holding each other accountable to stay on the same track.

And then, there's the surprise guide. And those are someone that you would never think, “Is this person really going to be able to mentor me?” But I have to tell you, I'm on my second year of mentoring a small cohort of three women, and we call it peer mentoring. And I am fascinated by the things that I learn from them that maybe I wasn't expecting, and it's really made a difference, or I've been able to ask them questions. But having that conversation and being dialed in is really a blessing to both.

But I think if there's trust in the organization, and people know that they can talk to other leaders within the organization, it provides just a mentoring culture and not just a program.

Al: So, what are the three types of guides? That's fascinating.

Tami: Well, first of all, there is the wise guide. So this is the sage. This is, “I'm going to sit at your feet. I want to hear your stories. I want to learn how you wrestled with these issues and these problems. And what can I learn from your experiences?” which we love it when we can invest our experiences into the lives of others and be the hand to help them through. And then, the second is a side guide. And a side guide is really someone, it would be where a CEO of one ministry is having regular conversations with the CEO of another ministry, because as you go up in leadership, it gets lonelier, right? So to be able to spend time with someone that truly gets you and feels the things that you're feeling the same way and has to make the same kind of tough decisions you do, that's iron sharpening iron in really an incredible way. And then, the surprise is, it's, like, somebody that you just never expected—it could be someone younger. It could be someone from a completely different field—that brings thinking and perspective that you probably would have never gained if you never encountered them.

Al: All right. Three types of guides. And, you know, I encourage our listeners, where are you in this journey of mentorship? Are you a wise guide or are you looking for a wise guide, a side guide, or a surprise guide? That's fascinating, Tami.

Well, let's talk more about investing in leaders. I mean, that's what guides do. But I know that you do a lot of investing in leaders, both men and women, through your work at Christian Leadership Alliance. And you also do leadership retreats or just retreats with women. So talk a little bit about that. In your work with women leaders, particularly, what are some of the common areas that you see where women leaders need specific resources?

Tami: Well, it's such a good question when you're thinking about specifically resources. What I've learned since we've been having, and we've had eight years of women's retreats, is that men are so much better at connecting with other men and having shared experiences, and typically around activities they love. “Let's go fishing. Let's go hunting.” I remember I was kind of shocked when we had our conference in Florida one year, and all the people that had scheduled tee times for golf before the conference started. And that wasn't anything we initiated, but they just made that kind of thing happen.

And I think women, it's harder for them to make that kind of space unless they do it very intentionally. And they want that space to build relationships. And then if they have that space, it's such a gift to them to be in community with others or for them to enter into, like, a commuted routine with someone that they're in a trusted relationship with. It's life giving for them. And sometimes that's where those different guides emerge. But I think for women, it's the experience and the time.

I find often that women that are in senior leadership, it's really challenging for people to get them, even in the context of their community or church, because they may be in a situation, they may be in a life group, they may be serving in ministry at church, and people just don't even get the fact that maybe they're running this other organization or they have this other call on their life. And so it helps to be in community with other women that really understand their journey and God's call on their life.

Al: Yeah, fantastic. And so you'll take women off, and you'll be together for two or three days, as I understand.

Tami: And the thing about that is that it's gently guided. So some people go to a women's retreat and someone's teaching all weekend, or men could go to that kind of retreat. Oh, and now we're going to have a lesson and maybe we have an hour off, or something. But for us, it is, how do we create an environment that allows relationships to grow, to deepen? And the greatest joy I have is when I see women who've come to that retreat, and they're off doing something together, or they're teaming up on some kind of a Kingdom initiative, and there's real friendship that comes from that, because again, I know how life giving that is, and that's a joy to see that as the outcome when we bring women together each year.

Al: Well, Tami, you've worked in marketplace companies, and, also, you've worked in the faith-based sphere. So what are any differences you see as women leaders bring to the table in these different sectors? Do you see any differences, or are they the same?

Tami: That is such a good question, Al, to try to separate that out. I think because my mind operates in a place that it’s, like, all separate. Even when I think of my time at Borders or other places, I think it's more, are you prepared to bring your best to that situation? And biblically, I think it's very clear that man was not meant to be alone and that men and women have this relationship that they complete each other. And when you go back into Scriptures, in fact, when I was at Thomas Nelson, I had the opportunity to work with Emerson Eggerichs on Love & Respect. Now, many may have heard of Love & Respect as oh, this is all about marriage. And when I first read the book, I thought, yes, absolutely. This explains my relationship with my husband. But then it became so clear to me that it's really God's design for how men and women work together. And I love how in Ephesians we get the text on how men and women are supposed to be together, but really it comes back to, how do we submit ourselves to each other in Christ? And while there may be some women or people push back and say, “I don't want to submit to a man,” or whatever it is, but in both, it's a sacrifice. It's as a woman, God's order is I'm going to submit and respect what a man has to say. And for a man, he's going to love that person like Christ loved the church and gave His life for it. So there's a death to self and there's a sacrifice. But when that is made and people come and bring their best, I think it just works.

And I know that you're familiar with Bill Hendricks and his work at Dallas Theological Seminary. In 2020 he did a presentation for the conference, which ended up going virtual, on work is worship. And I was so moved by everything that he had to say. And I thought when men and women come together and they look at their work, whether it's in the workplace or wherever it is, as worship, that integration of here we are and we get to do this together seems to accelerate faster.

Al: Yeah, absolutely. And I appreciate that. I'm just reflecting, Tami. I've been involved in men's ministry through our church for many years, and I've often reflected after planning and executing a men's retreat, the only thing that was missing that would complete it is actually having women involved.

Tami: Well, sometimes it is good to get away and just process. You know, women, we have a lot more words than men. So we need a little more time to get those out, but that's part of God's design. That’s okay.

Al: Yeah, exactly.

Well, so, let's talk about women entrepreneurs. And, you know, I recently saw a study that the growth rate for women-owned businesses has really accelerated, especially during the pandemic, and now even post pandemic. And I know that you have friends and advisors who are respected female entrepreneurs, and there's many that are leading Christian ministries at this point, and you really have done a great job of encouraging them in their ministry. So what's driving the success of these women-owned businesses, even women-led ministries? Is there an example that you can share, or what is it that they bring to their entrepreneurial leadership?

Tami: Well, I think they have a huge dose of grit. I think that they have an unprecedented passion. I think when women do that, they are clearly called to something. Not that men aren't in that. But I just think that there's this extraordinary thing that a woman has, like, “I want to fix this. I want to make this better. I want to address a pain point that exists today.” And they throw their whole heart into it. And much when I was talking about just kind of being in a posture that someone might be interested, I mean, they have a deep love for what it is that they're trying to pursue, and that passion enrolls other people into it and gathers support. And it's exciting to see so many women emerging.

When I came to Christian Leadership Alliance, I was going back in the records, and 20 years ago, only 15% of the community were women. And today it's almost half and half. And so what I think you see is an evolution. And that also fires women entrepreneurs is women are given more opportunities to lead within an organization, and then the biblical rule kicks in. They do really well with that. Then they're given more responsibility. And before you know it, they're in senior levels within ministries and eventually leading ministries. And so having that experience can spur a woman to break out and say, “All right, now there's this thing that God's calling me to, and I've learned this pathway, and I'm ready to go and do it.” So I'm excited to see so many women coming to the table.

And I know we share a beloved friend, Deana Porterfield, who is now the new president of Seattle Pacific University. I had this wonderful opportunity to get to know her when she was working at Los Angeles Pacific University, and Azusa, in the whole digital, when they were building out their digital education. And she was working on her doctorate. And at the time, there were very few Christian women leading Christian colleges. And I know that Deana felt called that that was something that maybe one day she was going to be able to step into. So she used her doctorate to study, what were the common threads—which was a fascinating undertaking, I think—and how did they get into those positions, and what we can learn from them? And she ended up with eight different characteristics that were seen in all of them.

And I remember sitting down with her, right when she was coming to closure, and we were having lunch, and she shared them with me. And you know what, Al? I was so struck because I was sitting there, and I just said, “Deana, what's true for every one of those women that are running Christian organizations, those were true for me.” And I really encouraged her that I thought she was tapping into something that was more of a universal truth. And that might be a great follow-up podcast, Al, is just to have her talk about the research. Because if you look at it today—just as I said when I came to Christian Leadership Alliance, not a lot of women in leadership—well, the same is true. Think of all the women that are doing incredible, incredible work, leading Christian universities today. But I think she tapped into some really important things, just about women. Women may not be pursuing position. I don't think the tendency is always, “Well, I want to be at the top of this. I want to lead this one day.”

Women tend to be pursued into them, approached, invited to be considered. They have men that have sponsored them, that have said, “I trust this woman, and she deserves an opportunity.” Most women have had a man open the door and say, “I'm going to give you this job. I'm going to give you this assignment.”

And they have a deep call. When women step into leadership, they feel that, “I am really supposed to be doing this.” And then, they've grown up in an organization, so they're familiar with it. They know the culture, they understand it, or they take a position in a ministry or a role that's like what they were doing before, so they can understand institutional culture. And that they clearly said, “I'm available to do whatever is going to be required in this job to see it through, to accomplish what's been set before me.” And I think that was, like, groundbreaking work that she did on that.

But I would say that was true for me. And I think about a lot of women who are leading, and I would venture to say I think it's probably true for the majority of them. Maybe it's not the full eight, but within that eight, there are some universal truths about women in leadership.

Al: Invited into the role. Not necessarily pursuing it, but invited to encourage looking at it. Sponsored.

Tami: That they would entertain it. They were open to it. Yes. And sponsored? Yes. And then they would pray about it. Am I called to do this? Yes. And that's huge. If I'm going to invest myself in this, I want to know that I'm operating center to God's will.

Al: Great insight. Yeah. And yeah, Deana, really coming in and making great progress at Seattle Pacific, it seems like. So, yeah.

But I’ll say, Tami, you know, as you've seen this transformation at the community of Christian Leadership Alliance, I've seen the same, and 20 years of working with top leaders, now 22 years of working with top leaders, in Christian organizations, and, yeah, the numbers are changing.

Tami: So, Al, can I ask what your observation’s been? I mean, you see across many. Is there anything that stands out to you? I mean, you are such an authority on this.

Al: You know, I'll be the first to say I think I've been a personal promoter to find and encourage qualified women to be in leadership roles in Christian ministry. That's a passion I have, you know, and it started with I've got a very strong mother, currently 98 years old, still leading in many ways in the areas of influence that she has. And I've just always found that women are highly qualified and capable. I think of my mother being the board of a retirement community. She was a board chair of a retirement community. And back in the days when—I mean, when did that ever happen? So, yeah, she was always a good role model for me and encouraging me to do the same for others.

But as we look at our best Christian workplaces and who's leading them, and, of course, your board chair is one at Joni and Friends. I mean, she's doing a phenomenal job. There's several—I mean, we look around rescue missions, there's several women who are leaders that have a heart for the people that are in poverty or homeless. And so all of those things around the Christian community, we're seeing great transformation.

And, you know, I love what you're just reviewed here in terms of what's unique about women. And well, of course, the other thing, Tami, is I worked for 18 years with my wife at Best Christian Workplaces.

Tami: I know. I was waiting for when you were going to acknowledge Kathy in this conversation and the remarkable woman that she is.

Al: Yeah, yeah.

Tami: What an incredible co-champion.

Al: Yeah. And I would say over and over, she's heard me say that Best Christian Workplaces wouldn't exist if it wasn't for her, because of the unique skills that she brought. You know, I've got certainly my strengths and skills, but, you know, her operational expertise and relationship building with our team, you know, really caused the continuity that we needed and the operational excellence that we've developed. It wouldn't have happened without her. So, yeah. So, talk about examples of men and women completing each other in the workplace is a great example. Bringing unique gifts to the workplace is important, I believe. So, yeah, exactly, 100%.

Tami: Well, in my observations, too, on both of you is that she deeply respects you. She is honoring in every way. She is standing with you and for you. And you love her.

Al: So, you know, you go back to love and respect. Yeah, right.

Tami: Yes. And you see it in operation. And I think of just the tremendous Kingdom impact you've been able to have in helping organizations flourish because it's that team at the top working through it together. So you're a great example.

Al: Let's continue this conversation, Tami, and let's go global, because CLA now has gone global. And that's, in fact, you've just returned from Korea and Lausanne, and you've had a chance to see Christian leaders all over the world. And now CLA actually has a global ministry. You're working with global leaders. What do you see globally? I know the United States is very different than my experience with the rest of the world. What are you seeing globally when it comes out to the trajectory of women leaders in different areas of the world? And can you offer some encouragement and direction in how leaders can specifically develop female leaders in their local contexts globally around the world?

Tami: Well, I would say, Al, that in many ways it's a lot like what we have here. I mean, there's the context culturally in different parts of the world in terms of how men and women relate, but there's still a biblical guideline for that. It's been a joy to do the global digital experience and have the opportunity to encounter women there from over 100 different countries and then actually to be at the Lausanne Congress in Seoul this past September and to meet some of them, some of the ones that have been in the global digital experience. And then, tune my time in those sessions at Lausanne, and they always seat you at tables so that you can build community over the course of the week and that event. And I had some remarkable women from India and from Cyprus and from Jamaica and, you know, just all different parts of the world. And I think I was impressed that they had that same kind of spirit.

And I think when you look at women often in a third-world country, oftentimes they're in positions where they have to find a way in order to survive and care for their family, that men may be there and then they go away, and then they're not there. But every day, the woman is responsible for the care of children. And when I was at Lausanne and I was interacting with some of those women, it reminded me of a long time ago, when for a brief moment I was doing some research with Opportunity International. And they do microfinancing, and they release microfinance. And they, hands down, find that women that are entrusted with a microfinance will yield a higher return and that they are great at starting businesses and enrolling people in there. And they create environments that are sustainable not only for their family, but for other people in their village or their community.

So I think the heart of a woman who's motivated either by the call of God or the care of their family, that those instincts are deep within them. And the woman from India, she co-leads a Christian school in India. And the stories that she told about how they work together and how they respect each other's gifts and how they care for one another doesn't feel too awfully different. But I think there are a lot of places in the world where women are fighting for their families, and they're leading businesses and doing things like that.

There was one interesting encounter we had with a woman who was in the Congo, and she was talking about, we were teaching about the shepherd-leader principle of leadership, about leader as a provider and a protector and someone that knows the presence of God. And it literally changed everything for her because she was overseeing, in a series of villages, these people that were doing different ministry. And she never thought of herself that way, that she could be a shepherd, that she could lead like Christ as a shepherd, and that all those things—provision and protection and helping them enter into the presence of God—they were within her reach and her ability to do. And we had a remarkable time of prayer with her. And I think that was a defining moment that changed everything about her leadership. So I think women are willing to step into those roles.

Al: And do it successfully, there's no question. Yeah. And it’s interesting. You know, I've been close and really love the microlending aspect of ministry, and HOPE International and others like Opportunity International just over and over will say, “We get better returns when we lend women money than men,” which kind of grates against my nerves a little bit. But the reality is, the facts are the facts. So creating environments that are sustainable is something that is true globally.

So, let’s talk a little bit about generational differences. And I'm just curious what you see about the distinctives of upcoming cohorts of female leaders and their strengths. What's different for these new, younger, millennial women leaders? And you know, what's different than what you have faced maybe as a boomer, for example?

Tami: Well, as I mentioned, I, for two years now, have been in leading peer cohorts where three of the women were in their 20s, maybe a couple in their 30s, but certainly generations behind me. And it's interesting. I find that they still have the heart for the same things. They may exercise a little bit more confidence and being able to say, “This is who I am.” And I think, you know, culture, it's like, okay, I can say how I feel. I can talk about the things that concern me with maybe more candor. And maybe that's, too, also, being in a group with other women. But they're still going through the same life stages. While generations may change, you know, there's still that time where, you know, maybe I'm a young professional or I'm working in ministry as a young professional that I'm getting married and now I have to balance, “Well, is it time to have children? Is it time not to have children? How does that work out with my husband? How do I take on that responsibility?” And then the children get older, and now, “Where am I in life?” So I think there's a season to life that every generation experiences, but I would say they're wrestling with the same questions. How do they find themselves? I mean, there's the universal questions we ask: Who am I? Why am I here? What's going on in the world, and how do I make a difference in it? And to the degree that we can grow in understanding our answers to those questions, it helps us understand more clearly the path that we're on.

And so I see a lot of younger women. They’re at a time where they're asking those questions, like, who am I really? Am I a wife? Am I this and that? They're really working on their relationship about what they believe, what they believe about God. I think a lot of women go through a season where even if they were raised in the church, they go through that season of, like, all right, is this going to be my faith, or is this my family's faith? And they wrestle through that.

So while they may have a little bit different expression of those things, I feel like the seasons of life have not changed. Some of them may be delayed. Some of them may come sooner. They may have different kinds of decisions about what they're going to do in those seasons, but then it's a process that they go through.

When we did our research with Azusa Pacific University about, what does a Christian leader have to do to thrive? So we had graduate students work on that, and they looked at kind of pop culture. This is what I need to do. And then they also added the spiritual element. What we found is, for a Christian leader to thrive, there was no difference based on generation, gender, or ethnicity. That when these practices were in place, it led to thriving. And thriving is having a confidence in whatever situation you’re in that God is in control of it, and that you put your faith in that, and you can stand confidently and lead through anything. So I just thought that was so interesting.

Now there are younger, the younger generation, there were a few that there were things that tripped them up. And there were two things that tripped them up, and the thing was is the recommendation from the graduate students were, like, this is a case for mentoring, like, as someone wiser. So it wasn't that thriving was absent in the younger generation; it's just they have a little bit more of a tendency, they’re making their first-time choices on things and that they could derail. But if a wise guide could step in and be with them, it could just give them a straighter path to actually thriving. And I love that was so universally true.

Well, first of all, it was just a validation of the things that we've grown up believing about the power of God's Word and His presence in our life and what happens when we're seeking God's will, when we're studying His Word and when we're in community with believers that there's true benefit, that that's God's number one intention. But to see that come out in a research project, you can't help but smile, that truth is truth. And I think I've seen that in women. And I have a daughter that will soon be 40, and I have a daughter that's going to turn 18 in a month. So I get to mother in a space, in a couple of different generations. And I'm watching them work through those same things.

Al: These millennial women, they clearly are standing on the shoulders of women like you, Tami, that have clearly created a path for them that probably, I think you could say, wasn't available for you initially.

Tami: Right. Well, it's always hard. In fact, there were times when I would say to my husband, you know, early in my family, like, “Well, you know, I just hope that I'm making a way that it's going to be easier for my daughter, that maybe there will be less resistance to this, or some of these things would come differently.” But, you know, my oldest daughter didn't really follow the same path that I did, but she was true to herself. She was true to her gifting, and she's doing something that she loves. So she's in a position of loving something and willing to put the work and energy into it. And she's an entrepreneur. I mean, it's her own business. She's doing that thing. And I think women have so many more options today because there are more women in leadership and more women that are willing to say, “Let me be a guide. You know, a wise one, a side one, or maybe I can be the surprise one.”

Al: Well, Tami, you know, we've talked about men and women completing each other. And so let’s talk about, let’s wrap up by focusing on what we can learn from each other as men and women who are called into Christian leadership, either in the business world or in ministry and nonprofits. What can we learn from each other? How can we value and deploy our own gifts for Kingdom purposes, whether the gifting is similar or different?

Tami: I would say the secret in that is like leaning in and listening to one another and really being open to different perspectives on things. You know, I love StrengthsFinder, and I think StrengthsFinder is maybe that's kind of a neutralizer, too, between men and women, because women have, you know, I don't say women have certain strengths, but if anyone in the room has a strength and people respect that and they'll lean into it, there could be diversity between men and women or not.

I know when I did a lot of research on StrengthsFinder when it first came out—we used Gallup all the time for our training when I was at Borders—and I remember when Marcus Buckingham wrote First, Break All the Rules, and then he and Dr. Clifton came together to do the StrengthsFinder. And I used Borders as a test. Like, let's go through and let's look at the top five strengths of every single of our 400 stores. What were they, and was there a common thread? What can we learn from it? And so there's a model for that.

But I think the ability to respect how God has wired someone and then lean in and listen to them and from a team perspective, to be equally aware of what is missing, like, what expertise, what talent, what gift is not at the table so that you don't miss it when you're trying to plan and make decisions and really seek God, because that would include spiritual gifts, too. Like, what spiritual gifts are present within the organization? But pausing long enough to say, “What do you think about that?” And sometimes we're just in go-mode, and we don't slow down and ask. But I think whenever there's a seat at the table, we need to listen to who's in that seat.

Al: To listen to diverse opinions, to be open. It's like, let me dig into that. Let me listen to that even deeper. Yeah. And then, I love it, you know, as you say, to look at the strengths we have. And I remember being part of a team at one point where we were pretty much all the same, which is easy to do in many cases. But then, I wanted to make sure, well, we're all thinking about this in the same way because we have all the same strengths. Let's pull other people into this that have different strengths. And I think of Myers-Briggs. I think of, you know, Enneagram. Those are all examples of how, you know, we need to have a broader diversity because we can't be thinking all the same way or we miss so much of what needs to be included in things. No question. Yeah.

Tami: Now, that would be an interesting question for those that are still doing that research. Is there—I don't know that I've ever seen a report that said, “These are predominantly women's strengths, and these are men.” I've never seen any kind of data on that at all. But I do know that women can have strategy, and men can have strategy; that women can have woo, and men can have woo. I mean, that I've never seen anything. And I know when we evaluated all of our store managers or we all had them take the test, we asked a backward question. The first thing I said was to regional directors, “Who just runs a great store? Who just runs a great store?” And that came easy to them. And I wasn't looking for performance. And so I took those managers first, and then I looked for, what were the common traits in there? And then, I looked at performance. And we had balanced scorecards, and because there were over 400 stores, I mean, it was a long report, and all of them were on the first page. And it didn't matter where the store was located. Like, a great store could be—or you would say, “Oh, the retail's bad there. It's all shifted,” or “That's an old store. It's really broken down.” But the right people could create the right experiences, and there was this beautiful mystery and balance in the strengths that they had that made that happen. And it was men and women. They weren't, oh, all the guys have this, and all the girls had… I mean, it wasn't anything like that. It was just this beautiful mix of this is what they have, and this is what they're called to do. And they love it, and they pursue it wholeheartedly.

Al: Well, Tami, this has just been a great discussion today. Thanks so much. I know our listeners are thinking, yes, there's been a lot of content here for us to consider. I love, even going back to that big question that we should all be asking ourselves, especially when things don't work out the way we thought they would, what is it about my leadership that caused that outcome? That's a great question for us to think about, and how we shouldn't be in any ways blaming others or feeling like we're a victim. And then, you know, we talked about mentoring, and you mentioned the wise guide, the side guide, the surprise guide. That's been a great theme throughout our conversation. And how mentoring is so important and unique as we're developing women leaders, particularly, to build spaces where you can build relationships and community. And again, how your theme that women and men, they complete each other. I mean, that's a biblical concept that we should all think about. Not to separate, but by working together, we actually complete each other. And some of the attributes of women entrepreneurs then in ministry as well as in organizations and some of the eight characteristics you mentioned of women leading organizations. What is true and how you reflect that in your own experience as you've been through such a great background in terms of leadership. And, yeah, globally, some of the differences that we've seen and similarities, and how we ask all of those same important questions: Who am I? Why am I here? How do I make a difference in this world? How do I serve Christ in my situation? So this has just been a great conversation, Tami. Thanks so much.

Is there anything you'd like to leave with us, one bottom-line thought that you'd like to leave?

Tami: Well, the bottom line is everything that we've talked about today has just been a rich investment from many different places. And that question that you love, you know, there's also the positive side. And I would want to say that when we're assessing ourselves and we're examining, that we have to know when the success happens too, that if we miss what it was that worked, then we could really miss out. And people that are really interested in mentoring, Dr. Teresa Moon has written a lot about these three guides, and I would encourage anyone to look up Dr. Teresa Moon and some of the work and some of the things that she's written on it, just for a deeper dive into it. But it's exciting. God's design is exciting. And the thing is, is we can choose to resist it, but when we embrace it and we embrace the way God has designed men and women and His intention for them to work together, it's bringing the Kingdom to Earth. It really is. It's operating in His best plan, and don’t we all want to be there? We want to be centered to God's good, perfect, and holy will.

Al: Absolutely. Well, thanks, Tami. Thank you for your contribution today. And most of all, I appreciate your investment in equipping men and women leaders to exhibit character and confidence in their leadership. So thanks for taking your time out today and speaking in the lives of so many listeners.

Tami: Thanks, Al. Great to be with you, always. We get to do this, my friend. We get to do this.

Al: Amen.

Thanks so much for listening to my conversation with Tami Heim. I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did.

You can find ways to connect with her and links to everything we discussed in the show notes and transcript at workplaces.org/podcast.

And if you have any suggestions for me about our podcast or have any questions about flourishing workplaces, please email me, al@workplaces.org.

And if you're ready to a strength and trust, improve engagement, and transform your workplace culture, consider starting an Employee Engagement Survey from Best Christian Workplaces. It's more than just an assessment; it's the first step toward real growth. Visit workplaces.org to learn more and begin building a flourishing, trust-filled culture today.

Next week, you'll want to join us as we have a special Christmas message from Elisa Morgan, the author, speaker, and podcast host, with Our Daily Bread Ministries.

Outro: The Flourishing Culture Leadership Podcast is sponsored by Best Christian Workplaces. If you need support building a flourishing workplace culture, please visit workplaces.org for more information.

We'll see you again next week for more valuable content to help you develop strong leaders and build a flourishing workplace culture.