Transcript: Culture That Flourishes, Leaders Who Last // Peter Greer, HOPE International

Flourishing Culture Leadership Podcast

“Culture That Flourishes, Leaders Who Last“

June 2, 2025

Peter Greer

Intro: What happens when leaders trade image management for authentic transformation? Well, in this episode I sit down with Peter Greer, the president and CEO of HOPE International. His honest insights on identity, humility, and faithful leadership are both challenging and deeply encouraging. I'm grateful for Peter's transparency and wisdom, and in this is a conversation every Christian leader needs to hear.

Welcome: Welcome to the Flourishing Culture Leadership Podcast, your home for open, honest, and insightful conversations to help develop your leadership, your team, and build a flourishing workplace culture.

Al Lopus: Hi, I’m Al Lopus, the co-founder of the Best Christian Workplaces and author of Road to Flourishing, the go-to research-based, Christ-centered guide to building a flourishing workplace culture. And my passion is to equip Christian leaders like you create engaged, flourishing workplaces, where people thrive and organizations make a significant Kingdom impact.

As this month comes to a close, I’m passing the mic, entrusting the Flourishing Culture Leadership Podcast to the next generation of leaders at the Best Christian Workplaces. You’ll hear more about that in the weeks ahead.

In the meantime, let me just say it's been a deep joy and honor to bring you this content over the past 10 years and 450 episodes. I'm incredibly thankful for the opportunity to walk alongside you as we've pursued the vision where Christian-led workplaces set the standard as the best, most effective places to work in the world. So, thanks for joining me on this meaningful journey. And so this month, I'm choosing some of my favorite leaders to finish this version of the podcast.

Today, I’m delighted to welcome Peter Greer to the podcast. Peter's the CEO of HOPE International, an organization with a flourishing workplace culture. He's also the author of the foreword of my book and is a workplace-culture disciple.

Throughout our conversation you'll hear Peter share about his authentic leadership lessons. Throughout our conversation, you'll hear Peter share how embracing vulnerability and surrender leads to deeper trust, stronger teams, and healthier outcomes. Also, his biblical worldview for identity in leadership. Peter explores how rooting your identity in Christ, not performance, transforms how you lead and love others. And finally, practical encouragement for leaders facing pressure, and don't we all? You'll walk away with renewed courage to lead with integrity, rest in God's grace, and build organizations that reflect Kingdom values.

I think you're going to love this interview with Peter Greer. But before we dive in, this podcast is proudly sponsored by the Best Christian Workplaces’ Employee Engagement Survey, the most-trusted employee-engagement tool for faith-based organizations. With thousands of leaders already using our platform, each new participant strengthens the growing network committed to flourishing workplace cultures. What makes us unique? Well, we're the only research-based, biblically grounded employee-engagement survey designed specifically for Christian-led organizations, providing insight and transformation through a Kingdom lens. And as today's guest, Peter Greer reminds us, true impact begins with the people on your team. When leaders listen well, they invite transformation in the culture and in the hearts of those who serve. That's exactly what our Survey helps you do. So don't wait. Now is the ideal time to gather actionable feedback from your team to begin building a healthier Christ-centered workplace. Visit workplaces.org to lead more and learn more to start your journey today.

And hello to our new listeners. Thanks for joining us as we honor your investment of time by creating valuable episodes like this.

Let me tell you just a little bit more about Peter Greer. Peter’s the president and CEO of HOPE International, a global Christ-centered economic-development organization serving throughout Africa, Asia, Latin America, and Eastern Europe. Under Peter's leadership, HOPE has expanded from working in two to now over 20 countries, and they serve over 2.5 million families. Prior to joining HOPE, Peter worked in Cambodia, Zimbabwe, and Rwanda. He has co-authored 15 books, and his most recent is Lead with Prayer: The Spiritual Habits of World-Changing Leaders. In addition, several of his earlier co-author books focused on human flourishing, such as Created to Flourish and Entrepreneurship for Human Flourishing.

So, here’s my conversation with Peter Greer.

Peter, it’s great to have you back on the podcast, and I look forward to our conversation. I’ve always learned so much from our conversations in the past.

Peter Greer: Well, that is both ways, Al. You have shaped the culture of HOPE International. So looking forward to our conversation again today.

Al: Well, Peter, as you know, Inspirational Leadership is one of the eight factors of the research-based FLOURISH model that we developed at Best Christian Workplaces, and you're very familiar with that as you wrote the foreword for my book, Road to Flourishing. And while all of the factors contribute to flourishing, as you know, it's Inspirational Leadership that has the highest weighting for an engaged workforce. As I've been diving deeper into what it means and what makes up inspirational leadership, the essential qualities are a combination, I find, of spiritual leadership, Christian community, and leadership competence.

So, let's start with the first one. That's spiritual leadership. And as you're tending to your own soul and helping to develop leaders at HOPE International, what are some specific ways that you develop or work with others to develop their Christian character?

Peter: Yeah. Well, I think the starting point is that we want it to be true that everyone who works at HOPE International would look back on their time and tenure at this organization and say, “This is a place that I grew. This is a place that I grew in my understanding my gifts and abilities. This is a place that I grew in my understanding for God's heart for the world and relationships grew,” and also, that there is spiritual growth that happens as a result of the time that they spent serving at HOPE International.

And then, connecting that intention. We hope that to be true. And then, that leads to, so what do we do to make that to be a true statement? And that's where, Al, we have an incredible team. So grateful for our HR team. We also have a spiritual-integration team that helps think through this. And I would say it's not one thing that we do; it's a lot of small things that in the aggregate provide opportunities for every single one of us to grow in our ability, our skills, and our faith. And that is really important.

So, some of the practical pieces, the prayer times that we have, they matter a lot. The staff devotions, we call it a Kingdom-witness guide, and different themes that we weave around the world as an opportunity for us to keep growing. But again, the small pieces of that are less important than the intentionality and then the plan and invitation for all of us to be on a journey to grow closer to Christ.

Al: You know, in my work over 20 years with the Best Christian Workplaces, I firmly believe that our faith should grow when we do work in ministry. And yet sometimes I hear stories of people that have been burned in ministry. And I just love what you say that, you know, it's one of the intentional desires that people grow in their spiritual life as they serve. That's fantastic.

Peter: Can I just say one thing on that, Al, which, to me, there was a specific moment. And it was this specific moment that we were spending all of this time and attention listening to those families that we serve and understanding these four domains of impact, of spiritually, of materially, of personally, and socially, and looking at these areas of impact, and then, at that time to see this juxtaposition between the tools and intentionality that we were listening to those that we serve, and then to realize we did not have those same tools or intentionality to listen to those that are doing the serving. And so sometimes for organizations like HOPE that are passionate about the work that we are doing, that care deeply about the families that we serve, I think that's a great starting point to just say, “What are we doing to listen about the impact that we're having on those individuals that we serve?” And then, to ask some questions, how well are we doing listening to those individuals that we're serving? And again, the Best Christian Workplace has been instrumental in our ability to listen well to the team that we have and to ask questions, is this an environment where individuals are learning and growing? And if not, what can we do to change that? Or what can do to improve that?

Al: Yeah. And you've made that just an annual integration into your DNA there at HOPE International.

But I do have one more question, Peter, based on what you've said. So spiritual integration. You've got a team or a group that works on spiritual integration. Share with us a little bit about what that team does. How do you do that?

Peter: Yeah. It was really interesting. This was, again, there was a moment when we looked at the different areas of expertise that we had on our team. And we had systems’ experts that were working across the world, helping us improve the way that we were using technology and creating systems. And then, we had our program team, and then, we have these different areas, accounting and finance. And so we had all these areas of expertise that were cross-cutting across the organization. And yet at HOPE International, we say that we are trying to alleviate not just physical poverty, but also spiritual poverty. We want to provide these services of investment and capital, helping entrepreneurs start or expand small businesses, but not just to grow businesses, not just to provide for the families—that's really important—but also, so that individuals are growing closer to Christ as they are joining these groups and participating in the services. And so we just had technical experts in all of these areas except for the heart of the mission. And in some ways that makes sense because the work of spiritual integration is the work everyone. We hope that that is true for all of us, that we are part of that. But to have a specific dedicated team that every single day is waking up and saying, “What are we doing to make sure that there is alignment between our faith and our action, that there is alignment when we say we're addressing not just physical poverty, but also spiritual poverty?” to have a team that is waking up thinking about that, and that involves staff care. But it also involves church partnerships. It also involves how we incorporate faith into the operational details of what it is that we do. And to have a team that is thinking about that all the time. And in many ways this connects to what you and I have had conversations on previously about mission drift and how easy it is for organizations to lose their way, how easy is for organizations to forget about the spiritual aspect of their identity and of their work. And this team has just been terrific in reminding us again and again, this is what we're going after, and then, providing the technical-skills training and intentionality to make sure that we keep the focus on Christ as we are doing this work of economic development.

Al: And as we've done the statistical research on our questionnaire, for example, we find that people in Christian organizations, Christian-led organizations, when the leaders say that they're Christian, they actually want to see that their lives have been transformed by Christ. And so when we do the factor analysis, for examples, that question that comes out on top is “Leaders exhibit the fruit of the Holy Spirit,” love, peace, patience, kindness, etc. So, having a spiritual-integration team, actually helping to identify how individuals can grow in their faith, and not only, you're saying, for your team, but also as part of the service that you're providing to those you serve. Yeah. That’s great.

Well, let me say, Peter, a flourishing workplace thrives on not only inspirational leadership and spiritual leadership, but authentic relationships rooted in Christian community, and you're talking about that already. And as our organization reflects Christ and creates an environment for Christian fellowship among the staff, we're living out Kingdom values in that process. So I'm interested to hear how you cultivate Christian community. Now, you've mentioned already prayer integration; you’ve mentioned worship times; so I’m interested to hear how you cultivate Christian community amongst your staff at HOPE, both in your teams in Pennsylvania and around the U.S., but also, your 1,500 people around the world. Christian community, how do you develop that?

Peter: I love having these conversations with you, Al, and I feel like there has to be a giant disclaimer every single one, every single time we start, which is we're still, we are still early on the journey. We're still trying to figure this out. And hopefully, when we have a next conversation, there will continue to be growth and progress of what it looks like to live these things out. Still on the journey, and so grateful for, again, the BCW community and helping us in that journey.

But to me, I think there's maybe three kind of broad categories. And the first one is if you look at what you do on a weekly basis, what is it that you do to connect with each other? Because the reality is I could do my job. I could come into my office. I could shut the door, and I could dive right in on email and activity, and I could have very little interaction. And I love that every week we have things that pull us out of our individual work and into relationship with others. And we already mentioned this, Al, but for us, three times a week, we pause and we pray. And that matters to gather together, and prayer matters. There's so much beautiful mystery in this gift of corporate prayer together. And so that's one thing that pulls us out. We have devotions. We have staff meeting. And that matters to have that space.

I think the second thing, though, is the unplanned. I'm a big believer that if you are eating lunch at your desk, you are missing out on a key moment to connect with others. And so that maybe is not planned, but it's spontaneous. And if you come to our office in Lancaster, Pennsylvania, I can tell you where I'm going to be. If I don't have a meeting, I'm going be in the lobby, which is where we have a Ping-Pong table. And it is where we connect with others over lunch, and we have these different twists of Ping Pong that get a lot of people engaged. Or you're going to find me walking around the building, hopefully with a few others in that. And the unplanned time really matters as well. So the regular habits, the unplanned time and space.

And then, I think the third, and it's something that we really look forward to, but as a global organization, there is significant time and money that is spent connecting, not just over Zoom, although we have that regularly, but the belief is physical presence matters with relationship. And if you spend time with someone in person, that is a different experience. And I think it sustains, then, this remote way that we have to connect just because of the different geographies. And so the physical presence, investing in relationships. Maybe some organizations would say, “Well, you can just do that on a Zoom meeting.” And we would say, “You can. But those Zoom meetings will be different if you have also invested in the physical presence of being together.”

So those are the three things that we do. It's the structured on the weekly; it's the unstructured, giving time and space; and then, it's also connecting as a global team with intentionality of what we do on an annual or semi-annual basis.

Al: Yeah. And as we've really worked on understanding, we develop relationships with those that are different from us, proximity is so important. And you've just made that point, with physical presence, being in the same location, getting people together. That’s fantastic.

Well, those things help to build community. There's no question about it. I appreciate that input.

And the third part of Inspirational Leadership and our analysis based on just the research of hundreds of thousands of Christian employees is leadership competence. Now, this involves continuing growth and excellence in management, the stewardship of people and resources. And let me say, yes, you've got room to grow, Peter. You're in the 90th percentile. There's at least, probably, seven or eight percentile that you can grow in that, but you've just remarkable results based on your employee input at HOPE International.

But, yeah. Leadership competency. Share some specific ways that you and your team at HOPE are building leadership competence in your current leaders and upcoming leaders.

Peter: Yeah. Some of the ways that I have found to be most helpful in that is, one, it's not just HOPE International. We have an incredible group of peer organizations that have so much to teach us. And I remember early on, with our leadership team, going to Washington, D.C. and spending some time with IJM. And Gary Haugen and team were so gracious. They rolled out the red carpet. We got to understand their prayer practices, and that shaped our own. We got to learn about the way that they had their organization structured, and that shaped the way that we structured our organization. And so gracious, and not just them. Every year, we try to make sure at least once a year that we are taking our leadership team and connecting with another leadership team of another organization. And that has been so helpful to have peer-to-peer learning. And so that is one thing that we do that I would highly recommend to those that are wanting to learn: find another organization that is in a similar space or maybe even a little bit further. And that opportunity to learn and grow together has been exceptionally helpful.

Second thing that we've done with it is to have intentionality of relationship. And this might be an odd thing to say for kind of leadership competence, but I think a culture of succession planning is the best way to have a culture of investing in your leaders. When every single person is thinking beyond themselves, you are actively and intentionally trying to create a culture where everyone is learning and growing in their skills, and seeing it not as something that is a threatening activity, but as something that is being part of a mission that we hope outlasts any one of us in our current season, in our current role. And so, we have normalized the conversation around succession planning. And everyone in the organization, myself included, has a succession plan, both short term and long term, all of the leaders that we have, and that's been incredibly helpful.

And then, the third thing is we have part of our HR team, but we have leadership sessions every month. And we go through and bring in external speakers and really want to sharpen our skills. And sometimes it's, “How do you have the difficult conversation?” And sometimes it's, “How do you really engage your staff?” And sometimes its succession planning, as we were just talking about. But again, the goal is everyone who works at HOPE will be further along in their gifts and abilities as a result of working at this organization, and creating systems and structures that help support that goal.

Al: Oh, I love those ideas, Peter. Gosh, yeah. Connecting with peers, peer to peer. So your leadership team does that every year. Secondly, you mentioned the succession planning. So what that does is that causes people to think about the next job and how they can develop their competencies to be prepared not only for their current job but their next job. And I like the idea that before being promoted many times, people are demonstrating already that they're able to be in those competencies. But then, monthly leadership-skills training. You're bringing in speakers from the outside to help your staff develop and grow. And I don't know, can you give us a couple examples right off the top of your head on who some of those speakers might have been in topics over the last year, for example?

Peter: Yeah, sure. I mean, one of the more-recent ones was looking at intercultural awareness. We are a global organization, and there is a lot under the surface, and we wanted to grow in that. And so it was an assessment for us to learn more about how we do that. And that was great training that we actually also did with our board of directors at our last board meeting. It was very, very helpful. So that's an example of something that, you know, in the day-to-day, you're not spending that time, but you come together, and what are the areas that we want to learn and grow?

I remember there was one on time management, and that was real helpful. And I already mentioned it, but, how do you have candid conversations? That is, maybe for some organizations, when there's such a level of trust and respect, sometimes that can mean that it's hard to have the direct conversation when something is not meeting expectations. And so yeah, those are some examples of the conversations. Yeah.

Al: That's great, yeah. Good examples, yeah. Thank you so much. Intercultural awareness, in—how many countries are you in now?

Peter: We're in 28.

Al: Twenty-eight different countries. So, yeah, what's below the surface runs deep. And I've found while we might speak the same language, you know, words can mean different things. The same word can mean different things. Great examples.

Well, Peter, you've been investing in human flourishing for many years throughout your ministry around the world and in flourishing in your own team. In fact, two of your early books—and I've got them—are related to human flourishing, Created to Flourish and Entrepreneurship for Human Flourishing. And I'm wondering if you see commonalities in what your ministry does to promote human flourishing in less-resourced areas, and the human flourishing of your organization as it facilitates and invests in your staff. So share some of the connections, the threads of human flourishing, in these different contexts, not only those that you serve, but also in your own organization.

Peter: I think it is the most incredible thing to look at this world that God has made and to realize that the way that it's made is you can take one small seed, you can cover it with some dirt, and you can have some inputs, and then, you can have a hundredfold return of that one seed. That is incredible, the way that God has made the world. And I don't think that's just talking about agriculture, although with HOPE International we do a lot of investing in agriculture and entrepreneurs that are serving in different contexts of animal husbandry or gardening or something like that. I think that is a principle that is also true in the way that God has made us as well. And I think it is the privilege—it is such a privilege—to invest in people. And at the end of the day, that's what we do. The capital that we raise, it's not just starting businesses; it is investing in people. And Al, you said, what is the connection between the work that we do? I think the same is true for the team. We want to invest in people. We want to have this to be a place that people know they are valued; they are seen; that their gifts and abilities, they're growing in those abilities. And I can't wait. When the time comes for me to transition out of my role, I can’t wait to be cheering on this team of the future leaders that are going to come and the future mission that's going to continue. And so I think that's the parallel to me. What is the way to flourish? What does that look like? Well, I think it is investing, and then, cultivating and helping things grow. And that is true in the way that God made the world, but it also is true in the way that God has made us.

Al: Yeah. So cultivating, investing in your team, and then, you see how that cultivation, how that investment actually is then rolling out, playing out in the people that you're serving in the under-resourced around the world. Yeah. A very, very strong connection. I can see that.

So, well, you mentioned this earlier, but I wanted to come back to one of the great qualities of HOPE International is the commitment to innovation, and that comes from listening and acting on employees’ suggestions, and that's one of your strengths. So tell us, how do you engage your staff in creative thinking? And that's so important in a rapidly changing world, and the world is changing faster and faster as time goes on, and we have to stay right up with that. So how is your organization, how has HOPE incorporated a spirit of listening and innovation into your planning and actions and work overall?

Peter: Al, those are two important words, aren't they? Listening and innovation. And they're connected. They're absolutely connected. You know, a lot of organizations have monitoring and evaluation, and that is a whole sector of research. And at HOPE we added one word. We actually call that department in all of the work that we do, listening, monitoring, and evaluation to really relocate it from a research project to listening and responding to those that we serve. And so we certainly monitor and evaluate, but we do it with a posture of listening. We do it a posture of saying this actually has the ability to reinforce or undermine our mission. If people feel like they're objects to be studied as opposed to people to get to know, then we actually might be accidentally undermining our very mission in the way that we go about the process of looking at impact and all those important questions. So that is what I would say, listening is the foundation.

And we actually connect it to prayer as well. We call prayer as listening to God, and then, we talk about listening through these different tools to those that we serve as two really important pieces. But listening is also an opportunity to listen and respond. And so I would say the greatest innovation that we have had as an organization has not been because we have been sitting in Lancaster, Pennsylvania, coming up with great ideas about what to do around the world, but it has been listening to the families that we serve, asking questions about their dreams, about their hopes, about their frustrations, listening for opportunities for us to come alongside them in the businesses and enterprises and work that they are doing. And so listening and then responding leads to innovation.

And again, I can think about some of our very specific programs and practices that we have. We were just talking about agriculture. Our increased investment in agriculture was directly related to listening to the families that we serve and realizing how many of them that was their hope, that was the dream, that was the opportunity, better health, better nutrition, better ability to provide for their family by using what they had, their land. And so that is one very clear and specific way that we've been shaped, by listening and responding to those that we serve.

Al: There's a formula there. Listen plus respond equal innovation. No question. Yeah. So for ministry leaders and those that are listening to our podcast now, I'm wondering if you'll just reflect for a moment, what are you doing to listen and respond, and how is that leading to innovation? And I know many ministries are wondering, well, we need innovation. We need more of it. So that's a great formula. I appreciate that. Yeah, that's great, Peter. Thanks.

And also, organizations that are thriving have a shared sense of mission and direction. And again, at HOPE, people really know the direction. They know your strategy. That's perhaps the highest score of the eight drivers of employee engagement, along with Inspirational Leadership. So as a leader, how do you communicate a sense of momentum and forward progress to your team? I mean, you've had great forward progress over the years, and you might say, “Well, I can just step back, and we've got a great history of forward movement,” but I bet you really believe that, no, you've got to continue to communicate a sense of forward momentum. Give us some ideas. How do you do that with your team?

Peter: Simplicity, clarity, and repetition. I think of the three words that come to mind with this. Simplicity is early on we had this strategic plan, and it had 47 different points that we were going after. No one remembered all of them. I didn't remember all of them. But at that point we were trying to get everything into one plan, and the result is we had a lot, but we had no simplicity. And without simplicity, then there is no clarity. And then, that just led to ambiguity and confusion.

We have changed that, and we've worked really hard to say, “Not what are the things that we could be focusing on, but what are most important things in this particular season to focus on?” And the minute that you have repeated it so many times that you start thinking, “Wait a minute. Are we saying this again? Doesn't everyone know this?” that's probably the moment that everyone has heard it for a first time. And so we really are big. Let's simplify, let's clarify, and then let's repeat, repeat, repeat, and provide updates on that.

So for us, we have one graphic that says, “This is what we're going after in this particular season, and it has three objectives and three supporting objectives.” And my guess is you could ask anyone at HOPE International to tell you the three areas of focus and where we are, and I think you'd get a very, very, very high rate of response of people that would be able to say, “This is where we are as an organization, this is what we're doing, and this is the ultimate reason why we're doing it.”

So I think for me those words of simplification, clarification, and repetition I think would drive us in how we communicate.

Al: With regular updates, as well. Yeah. That’s right. Yeah.

So, you mentioned three objectives in a season. So, how long is a season, Peter? Is this a quarter, a year? What kind of time frames do you use?

Peter: Yeah. So we've been going for a little bit longer term than that. We've been doing different seasons of strategic plan. And obviously, there's a lot of other work that happens department by department. But the overarching of what we're going after as an organization are things that, for us, was a four-year time period that we've been really going after it.

Al: So, you’ve got three objectives over a four-year period of time that you really are focused on. And as you say, everybody knows what those are, and it's repeated regularly over that four-year period of time. Yeah. Fantastic.

Well, Peter, you know, over the years as we've worked together, I know that your ministry, HOPE International, started in Ukraine. Ukraine continues to be in the news, and, you know, as I think about the families that are stuck in this war, it's just heartbreaking news. What are some of the ways, and I know you continue to work in Ukraine, even with the war going on, so what are some of the ways that HOPE is working with Ukrainians in their ongoing struggle, and how can we be praying and supporting people in the region?

Peter: Al, I so appreciate that question and the heart. Many times, there's an initial response, but then a situation is too quickly forgotten. And so thank you for asking back then, and thank you for asking now. The reality is it, in some ways, is normalized what should not be normal. It is normalized that there are still the air-raid sirens, there are still attacks regularly, and it does not hit the news in the same way, but I assure you it still disrupts lives and families and churches and communities in a very real way. And so for us as an organization, in many ways, the question is, what do we do? And I think the natural response is to say, “Well, let's just wait till there's full peace.” I don't think that is the most loving thing to do. And if I was living in Ukraine and I had the opportunity to get to work now, I think I would sure appreciate people that aren't waiting for all of the questions to be answered before showing up and trying to figure out what to help. And I'm so grateful for our team there and Andriy Kopyl, who is our managing director, the posture of courageous compassion to say in the midst of the uncertainty, let's continue to lean in. Let's continue to respond. Let's continue to figure what it looks like. And I know that is making an impact for the Gospel. I know that is making an impact for the families that we're able to serve, individuals.

We heard one story, just, I was talking to Andriy not that long ago about an entrepreneur named Olena, and literally, she lost everything when her region was attacked by Russia and had to totally restart in a new area. And imagine, like, who's going to provide startup capital, coaching, training for someone that has nothing at that point? And I am so grateful that the answer for Olena was HOPE International. We were able to invest in her, invest in her business. And no surprise, her business is growing, and she's able to provide. She actually just built a bomb shelter for her school in her region so the kids could continue to go to school in that region.

And again, so that's the great joy is even in the midst of disruption to still be able to show up, to still be able invest and to watch what Ukrainians are doing to rebuild Ukraine even as they pray eagerly and wait for full peace to come.

Al: Yeah. So you're saying Olena was in one area that was impacted by the war. She's moved to another area in Ukraine, and through HOPE International and micro-finance lending, she's restarted and is growing her business. Yeah.

Peter: That’s exactly right. Yeah.

Al: Wow. Yeah.

Well, God bless your work in Ukraine. Our hearts and prayers are with you, for sure.

Well, Peter, gosh, I always appreciate the wise words that you have and that you've shared with us. And particularly, I really appreciate the wise words you shared in the foreword of my book, Road to Flourishing. I've got it open here. You use the phrase, “It's all about the soil,” you know, as we talk about creating flourishing and how using the agricultural example, toxic soil does not yield good flourishing crops. Yet flourishing soil does, and it's all about the soil. But you know, even going back to our conversation today, I've just appreciated so much. And talking about Christian character and again, building into the soil of Christian character. And it's building into the gifts, you know, helping with the heart, building relationships, and focusing on the spiritual growth of your team and those that you're serving, and how you've created not only an HR team, but a spiritual-integration team to help make that happen. And that's also, when it comes to Christian community, focusing on relationships, both planned and structured, as well as unplanned. I love the managing by wandering around. I've seen that Ping-Pong table in the lobby of HOPE International. Yes, that does create relationships. It builds a sense of fun and cohesiveness in your culture. How you work with competence and building leadership competence. Learning from peers. I think, again, for us as team leaders, how do we learn from our peer organizations? That's a great innovation. Making sure that we've got good succession planning, where all of our team members are understanding how they should and could grow to even more effective. And then, bringing in speakers and monthly leadership-skills training with topics of the day. That's just fantastic. But the formula for innovation: listen, respond, and that equals innovation. So this has just been a great conversation, Peter.

Let me ask you, what would you like to add that we've talked about?

Peter: Thanks, Al. Always great to have time with you.

I think the one final thought is it was 10 years ago that Chris Horst and Anna Haggard and I wrote the book Mission Drift, and hard to believe that was a decade ago, but really there've been a lot of additional learnings from that time. But we were asked to consider, does it make sense to write a sequel on that and to do maybe a revised and expanded version? And we realized that there's something that I think we missed in Mission Drift, and it is that it's not just organizations that drift; but it's leaders who drift. And so we started going on a journey to say, what are some of the principles that we can apply, not from how organizations drift, but what can we learn about how leaders drift? And so you and I have a shared love of learning and writing. And so Jill Heisey and I have a book coming out in September, and it's called, How Leaders Lose Their Way, and it is all about that. It is about how we lose our way and how we drift and most importantly, what we can do to get back on track and how we can make sure that we don't fall into that statistic, that one study found that only one in three Christian leaders finish this well, and we think that is too, too low a percentage. And so how do we do that? What do we need to pay attention to? What are the small steps or small compromises that we need pay attention to right now? And so if anyone has an interest, maybe we could put that in the show notes, but that's something that comes out, and it really has been a transformational study to look at how leaders lose their way and how to, by God's grace, make sure that doesn't happen to us.

Al: Great, Peter. Wow. Okay. How Leaders Lose Their Way, I can't wait to read it. And maybe there'll be a podcast on that in the fall.

But thanks so much for your contribution. Most of all, I appreciate your deep commitment to God and to investing in human flourishing. And thanks for taking your time out today and speaking into the lives of so many listeners. Thanks, Peter.

Peter: Thank you, Al. So much respect for you.

Al: Thanks so much for listening to my conversation with Peter Greer. I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did.

You can always find ways to connect with him and links to everything we discussed in the show notes and transcript at workplaces.org/podcast.

And if you have any suggestions for me about our podcast or have any questions on flourishing workplace cultures, please email me, al@workplaces.org.

Are you ready to invest in the flourishing of your team? Well, start by truly listening. The Best Christian Workplaces’ Employee Engagement Survey equips you with the insight you need to build a Christ-centered culture, where your staff can grow and thrive, just like Peter Greer shared today. Don't wait. Visit workplaces.org. Learn more, and begin your journey toward a flourishing workplace.

And for next week, what if you could predict whether a job candidate would thrive in your culture before you even hire them? Well, join us as we talk with my friend, Chad Carter, creator of the ground-breaking Predictive Hiring Model, designed specifically for Christian-led organizations, and you'll discover how to reduce costly hiring mistakes, align new members with your mission, and build a flourishing culture right from the start. Don't miss this practical and visionary conversation.

Outro: The Flourishing Culture Leadership Podcast is sponsored by Best Christian Workplaces. If you need support building a flourishing workplace culture, please visit workplaces.org for more information.

We'll see you again next week for more valuable content to help you develop strong leaders and build a flourishing workplace culture.