Transcript: Healing Workplace Hurt: Restoring Trust and Flourishing Again // Dr. Meryl Herr, Good Works Group, LLC

Flourishing Culture Leadership Podcast

“Healing Workplace Hurt: Restoring Trust and Flourishing Again“

April 7, 2025

Dr. Meryl Herr

Intro: Have you ever experienced deep hurt in the workplace, whether from disappointment, conflict, or being let go? Well, you're not alone. And in this episode of the Flourishing Culture Leadership Podcast, we'll explore the reality of workplace hurt and how leaders can navigate it with wisdom, healing, and faith. Learn practical steps to process pain, foster emotionally healthy workplaces, and lead with Christ-centered values that restore and empower your teams. Don't miss this powerful conversation on moving from hurt to healing while building a flourishing, mission-driven culture.

Welcome: Welcome to the Flourishing Culture Leadership Podcast, your home for open, honest, and insightful conversations to help develop your leadership, your team, and build a flourishing workplace culture.

Al Lopus: Hi, I’m Al Lopus, the co-founder of the Best Christian Workplaces and author of Road to Flourishing. My passion is to equip Christian leaders like you to create engaged, flourishing workplaces, where people thrive and organizations make a Kingdom impact. And if you'd like to learn more about me, my book, opportunities for me speak at an event, this podcast, or recent articles I've written, I invite you to visit allopus.org. That’s A-L-L-O-P-U-S—dot org. Let’s journey together toward building workplaces where your faith, leadership, and organization flourish.

I’m delighted to welcome Meryl Herr to the podcast. She's the author of When Work Hurts.

Throughout our conversation, you'll hear Meryl share about how to process workplace hurt in a healthy, faith-centered way; the role of emotional and spiritual healing in leadership; how to create a culture of trust and psychological safety; and practical strategies for restoring broken relationships at work.

I know you're going to love this interview with Meryl Herr. But before we dive in, this podcast is proudly sponsored by Best Christian Workplaces’ Leadership 360 assessment and stake-holder coaching, helping Christian leaders gain the clarity and feedback they need to grow and lead with confidence. Don't wait. Now is a perfect time to invest in your leadership development and gain a deeper understanding of how you impact those you lead. Dr. Meryl Herr shares, “One of the greatest gifts a leader can receive is honest feedback. A properly developed and administered Leadership 360 provides a powerful mirror for self-awareness, helping leaders recognize strengths, uncover blind spots, and take intentional steps toward growth.” Ready to evaluate your leadership? Well, visit workplaces.org to learn more about our Leadership 360 assessment and stake-holder coaching, and start your journey to becoming a more self-aware, impactful leader today.

And hello to our new listeners. Thanks for joining us as we honor your investment of time by creating valuable episodes like this.

So, let me tell you a little bit more about Dr. Meryl Herr. Meryl Herr is the author of the recently released book When Work Hurts: Building Resilience When You're Beat Up or Burnt Out, published by InterVarsity Press. She's the owner of Good Works Group, LLC, a consulting firm specializing in educational program planning and evaluation. She recently served as the Director of Research and Resources for Fuller Seminary's Max De Pree Center for Leadership, where she conducted research and created resources to help Christian marketplace leaders integrate their faith and their work. Meryl's an MDiv and a PhD in Educational Studies from Trinity at Evangelical Divinity School.

So, here’s my conversation with Meryl Herr.

Meryl, it’s great to have you on the podcast. I’m looking forward to our conversation today.

Dr. Meryl Herr: Al, thanks so much for having me. I'm glad to be here.

Al: Well, let's start off with, what inspired you to write the book When Work Hurts? What are you hoping to provide the reader who's experienced maybe hurt in the workplace?

Meryl: Yeah. So the first spark for this book was actually listening to the Scripture on an app and getting to Nehemiah 3 and wondering why I hadn't heard a lot of teaching on that passage in the world of faith and work, because it seemed so obvious. It was a great picture of God's people coming together from all different types of occupations, working on a common project. And I was like, oh, what's going on here? and that led to some study in the Scriptures. And then, I just put it to rest for a while because I didn't have time to write a book. And I remember just on a vacation asking the Lord, “I think I'm ready to write a book. What should it be about?” And I sensed some invitation to bring this idea from Nehemiah and from that biblical study of that time and biblical history together with this idea of career disappointment and work hurt. It's something that I had been dealing with for most of my professional life and was getting to a place with a little bit more peace and understanding about what God might have been doing in my life. And so that's where it came from. It didn't start out, like, “Oh, I'm going to write a book about everything that's terrible about work.” It started with just some curiosity about the Scriptures.

And I would say with this book, I'm hoping to provide the reader with three things. Number one, solidarity. You are not alone in your work hurt. And I demonstrate that in the book through sharing tons of stories of other people's work hurt lots of statistics, because I want people to realize, hey, you're not the only one that's been through something hard like this. Maybe your situation is unique, but other people have experienced it too, sadly.

Second, I want to give those of us that have experienced work hurt a challenge. We have to deal with the pain that our work hurt has caused, and that's because we're likely carrying it around with us, and if we're not careful, that work pain that we're carrying is going to seep out into our professional relationships, into our performance, and into our personal lives. It also affects our witness for Christ. When we are not at our best, when we're carrying around hurt and suffering, it can be a time when we are not being an effective witness for Christ. And so to deal with that, I lay out a lot of ways in the book that you can start to deal with that. But one of the easiest steps and, like, the first challenge is to, like, tell somebody about what you experienced at work. That could be a friend, a family member, or a professional, like a counselor or a spiritual director.

And finally, encouragement. You are not your work hurt, and you can experience healing and be an agent of hope in the wake of work hurt.

And so that's the three things I want people to walk away from my book: a sense of solidarity, a challenge, and deep encouragement.

Al: Wow. That’s great. I really like that idea. I’m just—you were causing me to think, I've left a lot of work hurt on the beach, as I've run up and down the beach in South Florida over time. And no matter what our experience, we all have work hurt in one way or another, I'm sure. Yeah. And it’s a matter of, “Okay. So how do we deal with it?” And we’re not alone. You know, we have to deal with the pain or it just sticks with us. And we know that, you know, we have to let it go. And then, yep, we need to be witnesses, we need to be agents, for God in the work we're doing, and that He's present in our lives and loves us. Well, that's a great start. Thanks.

Our listeners are leaders in Christian ministries and businesses. Our focus at the Best Christian Workplaces is to help leaders assess the health of their workplace and the level of employee engagement. And hopefully, they change to move to become flourishing workplaces. So, some of our listeners have experienced the kind of hurt that you talk about in your book. What are some of the steps that a person takes to move to work from hurt to emotional health in their own work journey?

Meryl: Yeah. So I just want to start by saying that I want to separate hurt and emotional health first, because I think that you could actually be emotionally healthy in your response to your work hurt and maybe say that we may experience emotional pain and other types of pain, too. So if it's okay, I want to separate those two first and foremost.

But so the question is, how maybe do we move from hurt to healing in our work journey? And I would say the first thing is similar to what I said above is that we need to acknowledge our pain. I think sometimes we just don't even take a minute to say, “Oh, that really bothered me,” or “That really hurt.” I was talking with somebody else, and he was saying we have this tendency just to kind of buck up, put a smile on our face and keep going, right? because you've got to just move on to the next thing. There's not time. Maybe we don't have the processes to even dig in or the skills to dig into that pain. You've got to acknowledge it. This happened to me. This hurt. This caused these problems in my heart, in my mind, even in the stress I carry in my body.

We need to bring it to God. We need to tell God what happened. God deeply cares for us and about how we're experiencing our work. Obviously, God sees what's happening to us in our work, but to bring it to God in prayer, specifically, I think, prayer of lament, is a way that we can move towards healing.

Bring it to others to receive empathy and care. God created us for relationships, and we need that. And it's possible you're going to tell a few people and they're not going to resonate; they're not going to understand. But eventually you're going to find somebody that is going to be that shoulder to cry on or that person that's going to sit beside you and say, “Oh, that is just so tough. I'm so sorry.” Look for that because you need it.

And then, one of the things I talk about in the book, which I think is really important for us in the middle of work hurt, is to locate ourselves in God's big story. So we read in Scripture that there actually is a big story that God is writing, that started with the creation and is going on until Jesus comes back and restores and brings about the new heavens and new earth. And we're a part of that. We fit in that story. And so we need to realize that when we fit in that story, that work hurt is not the end of our story, that God can still be working in and through us. And God can heal us, can bring about redemption, and still use us for His purposes and His glory as we serve others in this world. And so to find ourselves in that story, I think, helps us realize that yes, the work hurt feels terrible in the moment, but God is purposeful, and God loves me, and there's something beyond this.

Al: Yeah. And maybe part of that hurt is preparing us for the next thing.

Meryl: Oh, for sure, for sure. I mean, I remember when I was in seminary, there was an administrator that spoke in the chapel service. His name was Dr. Coffee Washington. And he said this line that I have carried with me. He said, “Nothing is ever wasted in God's economy.” And I love that. I mean, even your work hurt is not wasted. Yes, it's terrible, but somehow God's going to use that for your good and His glory.

Al: Well, that's really insightful. I appreciate it. I'm also where, in my own leadership and talking with other leaders, that sometimes the people we hire in our workplace come from past work hurt and may have some baggage that we're not necessarily aware of because it just isn't something you want to bring up in an interview, for sure. So how can managers, who are onboarding people, help them set up positive patterns of workplace health and maybe, then, help them restore past issues of work hurt?

Meryl: Yeah. It's a really interesting question, and I'm just going to share a little story at the beginning of this. I actually cried in an interview. It was a second-round interview for my most-recent job at the De Pree Center. I cried, and that was just a result of work hurt and frustration and not with that interview process, just my past hurt that came out. And people that know me know I wear my heart on my sleeve, so it doesn't take much to make me cry tears of joy or sorrow.

And I think as a manager, when I was interviewing people for roles, I noticed especially with younger generations, a little bit younger than myself—so, I'm right on the border of Gen X and Millennial—that I think it's more common that people are going to be talking about their work hurt in their interviews because we're expecting more of work in younger generations, and people want to know upfront, is this workplace good for me? And so they might be a little bit more open about it. Not always, it's just a hunch, based on my experience.

But I would say for a manager onboarding someone into the workplace and you maybe don't know what kind of baggage they're bringing from their past work, I think the most important thing you can do is to work hard in the early days to demonstrate care, compassion, integrity, all to build trust with that individual. And I'm not talking about, you know, you're just doling it out, but it's real authentic. It comes from a place of care and of love because you want to create that environment where if they need to or want to, they can open up about that work hurt. You don't necessarily need to pry about it, but create that space where if they needed to talk about it, they could.

Second, and this is related to, again, not necessarily probing into what was bad about their previous employer, but maybe flip it to a positive side. Again, in the early days of employment, maybe right at the outset, and then again check in maybe 90 days in, invite them to share what they need to flourish in their work environment. What do you need? What kind of communication do you need from me? What kind of check-ins? Like, what kind of management style does and doesn't work for you? What kinds of rhythms of work and workload and pacing might be helpful for you? And again, some of those questions are questions you can answer within the first week while you're onboarding them. Some of them need to be asked, you know, 90 days, six months in, once they're getting into the rhythm and life of the organization.

And then, I'm going to offer two more. One, this one's probably a little bit more challenging because we may not always have the skills and the perceptiveness to do this, but be on the lookout for ways that employees might be expressing unresolved pain. And I think about, like, angry outbursts or extreme defensiveness. You don't always want to project that that's what's going on, but it could be. There could be something that they're bringing into the workplace that actually has nothing to do with you and the work that you've been giving them. It's just pain from the past that's showing up or that's being triggered or activated in that moment.

I think, two, you have to look out for, especially in the interpersonal one-on-one dynamics, we can have a tendency to project on someone, like a manager, that they're going to act the same way as a previous manager that may have been toxic or abusive. Just notice that and be willing to have tough conversations. Have I done anything that is offensive? Could I change this in some way that would really enhance our working relationship?

And then, finally, and this may be a theme that we come back to throughout this conversation, Al, is we as managers and leaders have to work on our self-awareness. It's an ongoing process, making sure we are not contributing to their pain or adding to it. It's so vital. And we know we don't want to lead out of fear or walk on eggshells, but if we are continuing to do our inner work, continuing to lead out of a place of love, and for those of us who are Christ followers, of abiding with Christ, of keeping in step with the Spirit, then my hope is that if we're trying to live that way, then we will be less likely to inflict harm, but it doesn't make us immune from it.

Al: You know, Meryl, I do a lot of journaling in the mornings during my quiet time and prayer time, and I'll often journal about these exact kinds of things, interactions I've had, you know, and sometimes I'm surprised at somebody's reaction about one thing or another, and it's like, well, something's got to be behind that. And again, what you're saying is, yeah, there often is unresolved pain or an experience that is coming from a previous workplace situation. And that's always been helpful for me. So, leaders, I'd encourage you, of course, spend time in prayer and meditation and do some journaling about these kinds of interactions. It’ll improve your self-awareness, for sure. And that's something that's helped me.

But let's talk a little more about this. But sometimes hurt in the workplace comes from being laid off or as a result of downsizing or being fired for performance issues. I mean, these are all things that happen. A leader can't always avoid these things. I mean, that's just part of the job of leading and managing others. And this is something that as a Christian, even in the secular workplace, I really worked on, and that is, what are the principles that you set for a leader who needs to have hard conversations with their team or individuals on their team? How can leaders have these hard conversations, to lay somebody off or to terminate somebody for performance or whatever it is, without inflicting deep pain? Do you have any recommendations for us?

Meryl: Oh, this is a hard one. I think, you know, I start off the book with a story of when I was laid off and how painful that was, even though it was done so well. It was done so well in many ways. I would say the first thing, and this probably is a little bit bigger picture and may run higher up the chain or the hierarchy in your organization, but has everything been done to avoid terminating this employee? And I'm thinking about, like, layoffs, right? We're in a season where we are seeing in the news, another story about layoffs just about every day, whether in the federal government or the private sector, nonprofits, it's all over the place. Has your organization done its due diligence in figuring out where costs can be trimmed to avoid eliminating positions? I know on the balance sheet you might see you're a big organization, you see that big 30 million dollars that goes towards personnel and benefits. It's easy to cut because it's going to affect the bottom line quickly, but it's also potentially going to destroy a lot of lives quickly. Not irrevocably; like, they won't be destroyed forever, but job loss is terrible and wreaks havoc on individuals and families and communities. And so I would say start there.

And if it's a performance issue, have you done your due diligence to support that employee and to put them on a performance-improvement plan or to see if you as the manager are complicit in their performance issues or if the workplace culture is? So have you done your due diligence? Obviously, if there is an ethical violation or some gross, egregious policy violation and that person has to be terminated, there's not a lot else you can do, right? It's pretty black and white. They've got to be out of this job unless your organization has some room for grace there.

But I think if you've done everything you can, then you come to that conversation and get ready for it with empathy. I understand that empathy is a buzzword in our current cultural climate, and there's a lot of people who would say that empathy is ruining us. And I would say we need more empathy in the world, especially in the world of business and organizational leadership to have empathy, to understand what it might be like for this person when they lose their job. Okay? What is it going to sound like, what is it going to feel like to them when they are told that they are no longer employed and they no longer have a paycheck? They no longer have health benefits? They no longer have tuition reimbursement, etc., etc., etc.? They no longer have a way to pay their mortgage, to pay for their kids' daycare, to x, y, z? All of that disappears for them the moment you terminate them unless you've given them some kind of severance. So to have empathy for that, put yourself in a place of compassion, I think is going to affect how you deliver that message, because instead of saying, “I'm sorry. Your position has been eliminated,” or “Please don't come into work on Monday,” you might say, “This is a very hard thing for me to say. After several weeks of trying to avoid having to do this, we are having to let you go. I understand that this is going to come at a substantial cost to you personally and to your family,” but, you know, you come in it with more understanding and more care.

I also think that you can also, as a manager, as an organization, think about, how can you continue to support that person? You may be cutting them off from their salary and their benefits, but there are other ways that you can continue to care. Can you provide opportunities for re-skilling or for up-skilling as they need to transition into a new role? Can you find a place for them in a different division of your organization, if you're a large organization? Can you help to network for them to find them a new job? Can you give them resume skills, job-search support? There are a lot of ways you can continue to show care and compassion beyond saying, “You're fired,” or “I'm sorry. We have to let you go.”

Al: Yeah, absolutely. And even you are mentioning, again, upscaling, offering severance types of benefits, advocating during a job search. One of the things I did in my previous marketplace role was I would let the person actually do the first draft of the email or a notification of their departure. And that seemed to really let them kind of process what was happening and give them a voice of how they would like to be remembered in the workplace as well. That's just a thought. But I remember, you know, during the 2008-‘9 recession, where there were lots of layoffs in Christian workplaces, and some did it the way you described. I mean, with compassion, with support, you know. And others, it was without compassion, and the hurt that the individuals left with was significant. And having done a number of discovery or focus groups with those employees that were left, that impacts them and their engagement as well. So yeah, absolutely, yeah.

Meryl: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, we don't talk enough about the organizational trauma that results after layoffs or even a single termination, right? There is pain there inflicted on the individuals and the systems that are left after a person transitions. That's a natural part of life. I mean, even a person leaving an organization to go on to a new job, there's going to be that pain there. But I think when it's mass layoffs or when there is an unexpected termination of, especially maybe a beloved employee, that can be really, really challenging for the organization as a whole. And so to take that into consideration as well is really important. And organizational leaders need to be willing to talk well and communicate well with their staffs about what is happening, because when they don't, it just causes more pain and more mistrust.

Al: Exactly. Yeah. That’s great advice. So, yeah, do it well. I remember talking with an employee who had been terminated from a Christian workplace, and they said, “I’m disappointed to be terminated, but I'm really glad that I worked for a Christian workplace because they did it so well.” And I understood, I, you know, yeah. So, yeah, that's something for us all to consider, because there's a lot of hurt that can come out of those kinds of situations.

Well, some of the work hurt that you describe in your book is because of blind spots that leaders have regarding their impact based on their own style. And at Best Christian Workplaces, we use the Leadership 360 and offer coaching to leaders to help in their self-awareness and particularly how they impact their team and how others experience their leadership. So what are some of the best practices that you've seen in leaders, those who get past their blind spots, maybe, and clearly are good shepherds of the staff that God has entrusted to them?

Meryl: Yeah. It's a really good question. So I love the idea of 360 assessments in theory. I think they can be really great in terms of getting you exactly what it says, the 360. Wherever you're positioned in the organization, you can get the perspective of people above you in the organizational structure, even if you're in the C-suite, that may be people on the board or other stakeholders, all the way to people on your team who are your peers, your direct reports, maybe people who are collaborators in different departments, but you have to think about who is coming to the table on that 360, who is speaking into it. Some organizations allow an individual to select who is speaking into their 360. There's a temptation there to invite only your fan club into that organization. And so when you invite only your fans, you're only hearing people who love you and think you're doing a great job, which can feel awesome, right? We want affirmation that we're doing a good job. But when you're not hearing from that employee or that colleague who maybe you have a more contentious relationship with, you're not opening up that channel for really constructive feedback. I think this is really important when you have a manager getting feedback from one of their direct reports. There may not be safe lines of communication there. That employee may not have a sense of psychological safety, where they can actually bring any kind of critical feedback to their manager outside of going to human resources.

And so what a really good 360, I think, can do is, a 360 could be administered by an external third party or someone else in the organization that is receiving all that information and then feeding it back to you. And then that external person is also saying, “Tell me the names of the people who love you and are going to give me great feedback. Who do I also need to talk to that may have a slightly different opinion of you?” That other one, that latter piece is the part none of us wants to hear, but it's probably the most important to our leadership. So I think that's a really big piece.

And I think outside of the 360, just in the everyday aspects of our work in leadership as managers, as people who are running businesses and organizations, at this, I'm going to draw on some research that I did with my colleague, Michaela O'Donnell at the De Pree Center, Max De Pree Center for Leadership at Fuller Seminary. We did some research over a couple of years on what it means to be a flourishing leader, which, Al, I know you resonate with that idea quite a bit based on your work. And a couple of things that we learned in that are that you can't do it alone. You cannot be a flourishing leader by yourself on an island. You need people to support you. You need people to give you feedback and to help you grow. And so, often, those people are going to come in the form of a mentor, a spiritual director, a therapist, or a coach. I think sometimes about, you know, some of my best friends that I will call them and say, “Here's an issue that I'm having. Will you please tell me if I'm being stupid?” And I know they will, right? And so we need those people to help us.

We've got to be willing to have tough conversations. I think this is something, it's been a huge growth edge for me is being able to really have tough conversations in the workplace, brave conversations. I love the book Crucial Conversations. It's really helpful for doing that inner work that we need to do, preparing for a conversation. I think of one conversation I had once at work. I spent over 10 hours preparing for it, going through some of the steps, journaling, getting feedback on what I might say, because it was that important. But in some of these crucial conversations that we have in the workplace, we need to ask for specific feedback from people that we're leading. And so we can say, “How are you experiencing me? Have I done anything that has diminished your trust in me?” I think especially if we're in, like, cross-cultural relationships, “Have I done anything that you've considered to be a microaggression that may have hurt you that I was not aware of?”

And I think, also, we have to be willing to apologize for when we've done wrong. I mean, it's hard work. Management in this sense and leading people in these ways are really challenging. It takes a tremendous amount of inner work and emotional energy. Often, our schedules are so packed, we don't have time for that. But I think good management takes a lot from us, and so we need to be willing to do our work, hearing from a lot of people, doing our own inner work, and having tough conversations to care for people well.

Al: That's great advice. And yes, you know, we've worked with, like, 2,000 different managers on our Leadership 360, and you're absolutely right. We really focus on getting everybody to give input by level, for example, to get consistent or good feedback. What's the point of getting feedback from those that you know are just going to give you good feedback? How do you grow from that? Feedback is the breakfast of champions, I oftentimes say. And sometimes it doesn't taste good, but it's good for you. And as you say, having people that you can actually talk with about these and actually, then, like in Crucial Conversations, having the courage to actually have those conversations because so much positive, so much good comes out of them. And yeah.

Well, you mentioned the De Pree Center, and I'm curious about your work at the De Pree Center and the research that you've done to help marketplace leaders flourish. Your team also turned this research into resources to help leaders live and work in a distinctive Christian way, which really resonates with me. So, let’s focus on the character of the leader. This is one of the areas that we focus on and really is something that is distinct in the Best Christian Workplaces approach to leadership is particularly the Christian character. So how can a leader continue to develop strong values and character throughout their career?

Meryl: Yeah. So I worked at the Max De Pree Center for Leadership at Fuller Seminary for over three years, and we did, like I mentioned before, that flourishing-leaders research study. And some of the things that we learned in that were that we've got to learn from the challenges, crises, and crucibles in our life. We've got to learn from other people. But when it comes to developing strong values and character, I am going to highlight a few things that really resonate with one of the big findings. So the first one when we talk about the research, and that was that these flourishing leaders are just deep disciples of Jesus. So we have got to, as Christian leaders, abide in Christ, which means not just reading about Christ in the Gospels, but really building a relationship with Christ, knowing how Christ lived and moved in the world, drinking deeply of the Scriptures. I think learning the Scriptures, learning what God cares about, what the values of the Kingdom of God are, letting that just soak into our hearts and minds, that is how we start to live that out as we are obedient to God's Spirit. And we've got to periodically reflect on our values.

I have a colleague that I worked with at the De Pree Center. Her name's Rebecca Johnson. She’s done a lot of work around values. And I love that she reminded me that you really need to have maybe two to three values personally that you're operating out of at a time. So you can really focus on them. And she's got this great tool called the values deck, which is a little deck of cards. I used to have it on my desk. But you can go through and see what's resonating with you. But I've done that exercise a couple of times, and I'll think, like, oh, like, this kindness is a value that I want to live by in my leadership, and generosity is a value that I want to live by in my leadership. And so then, I start to focus on those. I think about where Jesus demonstrates generosity and how and where Jesus demonstrates kindness and how, where we see this other places in Scripture, how kindness and generosity are reflected in the character of God.

And so as I’m continuing to think about that and taking that in, then I'm thinking about, what does it mean in this particular scenario, maybe when I'm setting KPIs for my team, how did kindness and generosity show up in my KPIs? Right? How did kindness and generosity show up in my one-on-ones with my direct reports? How do these values shape how I'm doing a performance evaluation for an employee? How do they shape how we're setting policy?

And it can be tricky when you're in an organization. You have a lot of people that have different personal values. Some of those are going to compete and conflict with each other from time to time. And that's where, I think, it's really helpful for organizations to think about their values, and what are our values, and what is our character as an organization? because those things matter. Organizations can act in a certain way that demonstrates commitment to a certain set of values. And so thinking about that together, and I think that helps us live in a distinctively Christian way, because people say, “Oh, that company made that decision, and that's really fascinating. They say they're committed to this, and now I see that lived out here.” And then on the flip side, people also know that if you purport to be about a certain set of values and then you're making decisions that don't align with that, that causes concern, right? And so we need to be really thoughtful individually about how our values are shaped and how they show up in our lives and in our work.

And I love Max De Pree, right? Maybe some of the listeners have read some of Max De Pree's books. But Max was known for being the same in the board room, at church, with his grandchildren. He had this consistent character. His values were consistent everywhere he went and the way he treated people and the way he conducted himself. And I think that's what we want, too.

Al: That's great, really. And let's be consistent in our values. Let's know what our values are, and let's live them, which really is integrity and character, and be consistent, no question, yeah.

Well, one of the workplace trends that we're seeing is an increased emphasis on the importance of mental health and overall well-being. So that kind of falls into this category of workplace experiences. So it's true in marketplace companies, as well as Christian ministries, that this is becoming a key topic. So what do you think are some of the key components that organizations need to have in place to address mental health and well-being in the workplace?

Meryl: Yeah. So I made a list of these. You gave me this question early, and so I made a list, and even as we're thinking I'm going to add a couple of extra things to that list that have come to mind so in the course of our conversation. One thing that I am loving seeing especially in large organizations are employee resource groups. These are groups that are typically run by employees for affinity around different—it can be hobbies or interests such as religion, in the workplace. We see these in big companies like Apple and Google might even have like Christian resource groups. I think these are really important because finding folks who are like-minded can help you build a sense of solidarity and just some people that you can touch base with in the course of your work week and have community, especially in a really large organization.

There are more and more workplace chaplains these days. I think workplace chaplains can be a great resource for people that are maybe engaging in something that's challenging at work, and they just need somebody to talk to, an objective third party who will listen, who will give them spiritual care in the midst of the workplace.

A couple of other things. When you think about your benefits package that you are offering to your employees, I think you need to make sure that that benefits package in some way has comprehensive mental-health benefits available. So mental-health care is actually quite expensive. So I know in my area, it can cost upwards of a hundred dollars out of pocket to see a mental-health provider. And in some places, there are very long waiting lists to see in-person mental-health providers. Now, there are great online resources, but there are many mental-health professionals that are tired of dealing with insurance industry and don't take insurance. And so when you think about mental-health benefits, don't only think in terms of your insurance that you're providing, but is there an additional stipend or some kind of other way that you can provide support for mental-health services? And this is not only for mental-health and well-being issues that are arising in the workplace, but they're happening outside of the workplace that people might bring to work. So for overall flourishing and well-being, providing for mental-health services.

I would say especially if you are a Christian organization, and your employees are involved in some kind of care, so hospice, pastoral leaders, parachurch ministry, they're engaged in one-on-one care in some way with other human beings, those people especially, we know from research, are at risk of secondary traumatic stress, of burn out, of compassion fatigue, and so they may need additional support.

I think generous PTO policies. People need time off from work. We are not human doings; we are human beings. And so to have paid time off that is generous across all levels, right? And so often, I think that we forget that salaried employees may have PTO and vacation benefits that are not the same in terms of equity as those who might be hourly or low-wage earners in our organizations. And so how can we be generous across the board with PTO so that people have time off to reflect, to rest, even to get them mental health and the other physical healthcare that they need?

Realistic workloads. This is something that I think is becoming a big problem is that our workloads keep growing, and it seems like an organization's workforces keep shrinking. I really appreciate Cal Newport's newest book, Slow Productivity. And Cal makes some really great arguments about knowledge work in his book and about how we have really ill defined what productivity looks like in knowledge work. And so we may take on more work than we are capable of. Our managers may put more work on us than we are capable of. And so reassessing what it means to have a realistic and maybe a life-giving workload.

And then, the last piece, which I think is really crucial, is manager training. I'm hearing from more and more people in different industries that management training is really lacking. Management training is often reduced to some videos that you click through in order to meet some HR requirement, and it doesn't actually equip you, because you don't have a chance to process, you don't have a chance to reflect on your experiences or situations you've encountered or are encountering in the workplace, and you don't actually learn, right? But it's one thing to know how to deal with sexual harassment per se in your institution or to report it and what the policies are. It's another thing to know how to create a cultural climate in which that almost never happens and how to offer care to someone when it does happen. That doesn't happen, in my opinion, on a video screen, right? That happens in a retreat, in a small-group seminar, in a workshop, and maybe in multiple of those over time to help people become really effective managers, because management is hard work, right? It's not, you're a manager on top of the 40 hours of work that you have to do. That needs to be a huge chunk of someone's job. If they are a manager caring for the people entrusted to their care is a huge chunk of their responsibilities. So we've got to get that management piece right.

Al: Yeah, that's really true. And it's interesting to see as AI becomes a bigger part of the work that we're doing, that's helping with the technical side, but that leaves the interpersonal side that managers need to be skilled at, that makes it even more important, I believe, as we look to the future and, yes, manager training. But yeah, that's a great list, you know, from resource groups in the workplace to workplace chaplains. Absolutely. Now we're seeing a lot of organizations move towards workplace chaplains to benefits, PTO policies, and the like.

Well, this has just been a great conversation. I love the way you started off in Nehemiah 5. Nehemiah is an Enneagram 3. He’s one of my favorite leaders, no question. He got things done in a great way and a great model for leaders. So, then we talked about when people are hurt in the workplace and the importance of knowing that you're not alone, that you need to deal with it, and that it's part of the big story that God has for our lives. And you've mentioned great steps for healing when we’ve experienced workplace hurt. You’ve talked about patterns of health that's really important for leaders who have to have those crucial conversations and possibly even layoffs and the such, how to really be aware of that. How we should be self-aware as leaders and your help along those lines has just really been helpful. And then, we talked about character and values and how important those are to just have integrity in our lives. So it's just been a great conversation.

Is there anything that you'd like to add that we've talked about just as a focus and a way to leave us?

Meryl: Yeah. I would say the book When Work Hurts is primarily geared towards people who have experienced hurt in their workplace. But my secondary audience for the book is managers and leaders because I think we need to continue to grow in our awareness of the ways that work hurts people that are entrusted to our care. And so I encourage you to pick up the book, even if it doesn't relate to your experiences. The book may connect with something that one of your employees has experienced or a challenge or dynamic that you're navigating in the workplace. And maybe through some of the stories in the book, you'll get a window into what it's like to be an employee in certain types of situations so that you can start to take steps to build a healthier work culture in your environment.

Al: Well, that's right along with my personal mission and vision, no question about that.

So, well, Meryl, thanks so much for your contribution today, and most of all, I appreciate your commitment to helping people be restored from hurtful experiences, maybe even toxic experiences, in their workplace, and to continue to follow Jesus in their workplace through these situations. So thanks so much for taking your time out today and speaking in the lives of so many listeners.

Meryl: Thanks so much for having me, Al.

Al: Thanks so much for listening to my conversation with Meryl Herr. I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did.

You can find ways to connect with her and links to everything we discussed in the show notes and transcript at workplaces.org/podcast.

And if you have any suggestions for me about our podcast or have any questions on flourishing workplace cultures, please email me, al@workplaces.org.

Is your workplace truly flourishing, or is it unintentionally hurting the people that you lead? A thriving workplace culture doesn't happen by chance. It requires intentional leadership that provides trust, healing, and growth. We encourage you to start by assessing the health of your culture with the Best Christian Workplaces’ Employee Engagement Survey. Be sure to visit workplaces.org today to take the first step toward creating a flourishing workplace where people thrive.

And stay tuned to our weekly podcast where we learn from inspiring leaders who exemplify Christian character and excellence in leadership. Next week I'll be joined by Dr. Jeff Myers, the CEO, and Jeff Wood, the VP of Finance and Administration at Summit Ministries. We're going to discuss how they've created a culture to provide highly effective student conferences, equipping the next generation with a strong Christian worldview. You won't want to miss it.

Outro: The Flourishing Culture Leadership Podcast is sponsored by Best Christian Workplaces. If you need support building a flourishing workplace culture, please visit workplaces.org for more information.

We'll see you again next week for more valuable content to help you develop strong leaders and build a flourishing workplace culture.