Transcript: How to Successfully Transition into a Senior Pastor Role // Daniel Im, Beulah Alliance Church

Flourishing Culture Leadership Podcast

How to Successfully Transition into a Senior Pastor Role
April 17, 2023

Daniel Im

Intro: When you stepped into your current job, did you feel prepared? And as you think about stepping into the top job in your organization, what would you do to get a great start? Well, today, our guest stepped into the senior-pastor role, following a well-known pastor who had been in the role for 30 years. Listen in as we talk about succession, healthy communication, core values, diversity, self-awareness, and keys to build a fantastic team with outstanding talent.

Welcome: Welcome to the Flourishing Culture Leadership Podcast, your home for open, honest, and insightful conversations to help develop your leadership, your team, and build a flourishing workplace culture.

Al Lopus: Hello, I'm Al Lopus, the co-founder of the Best Christian Workplaces and author of the book Road to Flourishing: Eight Keys to Boost Employee Engagement and Well-Being. And I'm passionate about helping Christian leaders create engaged, flourishing workplaces. And thanks for joining us today.

Leadership succession is an inevitable process for organizations, but it isn't simple. And today on the Flourishing Culture Leadership Podcast, we learn from a lead pastor of a church with a flourishing workplace culture. He was selected to lead after a thoughtful succession process. So listen in to learn how succession can impact workplace culture and how a flourishing workplace facilitates healthy transition processes.

I'm delighted to welcome Daniel Im to the podcast today. Daniel is the lead pastor of Beulah Alliance Church in Edmonton, Canada. Daniel, welcome to the Flourishing Culture Leadership Podcast.

Daniel Im: Al, it's an honor to be on this, and great to meet you this way.

Al: I’m looking forward to our conversation. And Daniel, you became the lead pastor at Beulah Alliance in 2021, serving after Keith Taylor, who had a long season of ministry there at Beulah Alliance, and we had the pleasure of working with him for many years. And this was an intentional and careful succession process. And succession can be difficult. We've seen many difficult successions in churches. So with that, how did the succession process unfold? Would you share that with this? How did you and the church elders see God working through this process?

Daniel: Definitely. Well, it started with Keith's intentionality and leadership, his love for Beulah, his desire to pass the baton, not when he had no more years left, but when he had a lot of years left to go. So there's a lot of intentionality with him and the elders that had been praying and working toward this for years. In 2019, I came up to speak at the church on a weekend and lead a staff retreat.

A little bit of back story. I served at Beulah from 2010 to the end of 2014, on staff with adult ministries in a variety of different roles. And for the next five years after that, I was living in Nashville, Tennessee, working for Lifeway Christian Resources as their director of church multiplication and serving as a teaching pastor at a church in Nashville. So that was my introduction. I didn't just randomly apply. There was history there. It was a difficult moment to leave and move down to Nashville, but we saw God's hand in it.

So in 2019 I came back, and it was really just supposed to be, in my mind, preach on the weekend, lead a staff retreat. But that's what began the process of a few months before that God unsettling my heart, preparing my wife and I, our family, for a transition that was upcoming, not knowing exactly what that was going to be, but just we had sensed that there was an unsettling going on, and then this opportunity came up. And then Keith asked if we'd consider praying about coming back and doing succession. And that's what opened up the process with the elders, the due diligence, the interviewing of different candidates, the candidating. And then all that to say we then moved back in September 2019. So it was about nine months from the beginning conversation to when we moved back to Edmonton. And from that point onward, the agreement was no longer than a two-year overlap transition between the two of us, and it ended up being a year and a half of overlap.

Al: Wow. So that's a great intentional process, and I've been through a succession just myself. And so you did have a time frame, a maximum time frame, of two-year overlap, but it lasted a year and a half. And so you were ready to go at that point, at least the elders and Keith felt like you were ready to go. And 2021 then you took the reins.

Daniel: Yeah, yeah. And you know what? No one could have imagined a global pandemic would have kind of shaken things up a little bit. So we started in September 2019, had six months of “let's work the plan,” and then the pandemic happened. And that, I think, is what accelerated the transition between the two of us, and just sensed with Keith and myself and the elders that it was the right timing to do the baton pass in May of ‘21.

Al: Yeah, wow. You know, Beulah Alliance has been working with us for over 15 years, and Barry Slauenwhite, our BCW regional director in Canada, shared that Keith really had built the Survey, the Engagement Survey, into the DNA of the staff at Beulah Alliance. So when you became the lead pastor, you were familiar with the Survey at that point, certainly from your previous time as well as having come back. So what had you learned about the Engagement Survey results historically, and what information helped you inform your leadership those first few months as you took over as the lead pastor?

Daniel: Yeah. I was, honestly, I was incredibly grateful to have had the overlap time with Keith. He had served at Beulah for 30 years, had been a lead pastor for 40 years. I had never been a lead pastor, so the overlap was just an incredible time of mentorship, where I could ask him questions; we could work together. And one of the things that he said to me when I joined the team, and this was part of the intentionality, he was like, “Hey, if you need to change, if you want to rewrite the vision, values, strategy, staffing changes, let's try to get as much of that done during this overlap so that when succession actually happens, it's like an elastic band, right? Like, we're pulling back the tension, and then baton pass happens, and then bam, you can go forward that way.”

So it was interesting because in looking at the results—and for this interview, I refreshed myself on some of the recent ones—and when I looked at those results, I remember a conversation that I had with Keith, where he had been sensing for years that it was time for new vision, that it was time to refresh some of the strategy, that some people might have even been wondering, “Oh, is Beulah coasting? What's happening? Why aren't there more changes? Where's the drive? Where's intention?” And there's some of that sentiment going on, and Keith had known that, being such a great leader that he was, that he is. But for him, he was like, “I don't want to change all that and refresh that,” knowing that he was going to pass the baton.

So the gift, really, that I inherited was this sense where the church was ready for a new vision. They were ready for a new direction. And the gift that he gave me in that was that I was able to steward that and be a part of leading that new direction when the church was ready for it.

Al: Wow. That is a gift. Yeah. Congratulations. And good for Keith for helping in that process and being so open handed.

Well, now, Daniel, Beulah Alliance has a flourishing workplace culture, and your engagement scores have continued to go up under your leadership. And that's just a wonderful testimony of a healthy transition as well.

And in terms of our eight FLOURISH factors that I talk about in my book, Road to Flourishing, your strongest areas are healthy communication and uplifting growth. And so let's start with healthy communication. This is an area that clearly has your fingerprints on it. Beulah’s a large multi-site church, and it can be tricky to carry out clear communication between sites and throughout the leadership structure of a church your size. So are there some practical steps that you and your leadership team have taken to foster healthy communication? You know, what can you share perhaps with a leader who might be struggling in this area?

Daniel: Yeah. This is one of those things where you say something, and if there's five people in the room, they hear it five different ways, right? And we all have our biases. We all have our blind spots. So in regard to what we did practically, I was surprised. I was pleasantly surprised when I saw our communications score was as high as it was. What we have been doing intentionally is just working hard to clarify structure and to clarify people's roles. And when it comes to responsibility and dividing that up and delegating that, just ensuring that the person who has the responsibility also has the commensurate authority to be able to do that.

So, for example, when someone asks me a question, and I'm thinking, “How do we scale this church? How do we expand, I mean, our visions to awaken greater Edmonton to King Jesus, 1.5 million people? I know we can't reach all 1.5 million people. It's going to take a lot of churches. But how can we be a part of, in our multi-site strategy, be a part of what the Spirit is doing in awakening people to King Jesus?

So for me, the last thing I'd ever want to do is build this church around what Daniel thinks. And it's natural, right, in every organization for people to wonder, “Oh, what does the lead think? What does the president think? What does the lead pastor think? What does the director think?” etc. But for me, I'm not that smart, and I don't want to build something around what I think, because I don't know a lot. I have an opinion, but I think the people who know the best are the people closest to the ground and the ones who are in the work. So we've been really intentional to build a culture where when someone asks or wonders, “Oh yeah, what does Daniel think?” that my team knows how to respond. They're like, “Well, actually, Daniel wants to know what you think,” right?

And we're very intentional around that so that in the communication, yeah, we have our staff gatherings. When I go up and I share vision and direction and what the Lord’s been laying on my heart, I'm clear with that. And we work and do cascading communication through that in team meetings, one on ones. We use teams, and we have different ways to communicate with our team, weekly staff updates. There's a lot of those tools and practices that we do, but the heart behind all of that is, “Okay. Do you know what your role is? Do you have the commensurate authority to do your role well so that no one feels like they're just a puppet, or they're just saying something that someone else is actually pulling the strings?” So, yeah.

Al: Well, I love, you know, one of the cores to healthy communication is, of course, people feeling like they, well, not only feel but they are actually giving input—

Daniel: Yeah.

Al: —and that you're listening to their input, and you're acting on it. And that's what you're saying is that you've really been intentional about building that culture, where you're seeking input, you're listening to that input, you're acting on it, and being very clear about, as you say, roles and responsibilities, and a clear vision at the same time, cascading communication, internal communication through tools like teams. Yeah, yeah. Fantastic.

Well, also the strength of your Survey results in uplifting growth caught our attention because this isn't such a common area where we see such high results in a church setting. So uplifting growth is about providing opportunities for your staff to learn, to develop, to grow. And your staff feel like their supervisor certainly cares about them as a person, but also that they feel like the supervisor’s taking time to talk with them about their progress, get to know them. And I’m sure, as you talk about having clear roles and responsibilities, that's part of that communication. So how do you and your leadership team actually train and equip supervisors? This just doesn't happen automatically. It's not a natural thing, in many ways. So, you know, what's going on behind the scenes with your staff as a result of these very positive, uplifting-growth kinds of scores?

Daniel: Yeah. So what I inherited was a great culture of evaluation, where annual performance agreements, midyear performance agreements. I remember being on the team, and I had served in a variety of different church contexts and just didn't have the rigor and the professionalism around that and the training. I actually remember being on the team. I wasn't supervising anyone, and it was in 2011, and I wanted to grow. I wanted to learn how to supervise. And there were these supervisory meetings happening. And I asked our executive pastor, I was like, “Can I just sit in? I just want to learn. I just want to grow.” So I've inherited that, that culture of development. And part of that is Beulah’s been doing the Best Christian Workplaces Survey for many years.

Now, when it comes to today, we're still working that out. What does this look like in a hybrid work environment where it's not necessarily, hey, let's all sit together in a room. How do we leverage technology? How do we use both a high-tech and a high-touch approach to development, where it's not just one way, but you're using adult-education principles to dialog, to grow, to do case studies.

For example, we just brought in one of our chaplains from our church family today to talk about medical assistance and dying and how we can support our congregation. And so there’s these timely—and being Canadian, this has been in the news quite a bit—there are these timely sorts of training that we give. There’s the timeless ones. How do you do one on ones? How do you listen? How do you provide feedback? How do you coach? What’s the difference in coaching and mentoring? Hey, as a supervisor, you're not the counselor; you're not their pastor, right; you are a coach. You need to work toward performance. You need to care for their soul, but you don't need to pastor them. Right? So there are a lot of these timeless sorts of principles that we work through.

But I'd say that the foundation underneath all of this was when we reassessed our values as a church. Patrick Lencioni talks a lot about this, right, where he talks about core values, aspirational values, permission to play values, right, all these different sorts of values. And we actually did quite a bit of work around this, and in light of the Best Christian Workplaces Surveys in the past, trying to assess, yeah, what are our accidental values; and how do we in both the intentionality of our training, in the way that we interact with our team, how do we make sure that we are both addressing the accidental values, emphasizing the core values, and creating a workplace that everyone wants to come to, that everyone loves coming to and wants to be a part of?

One of the things that I often say to our church is, “I want this to be—” to our team, our staff team is, “I want this to be a place where you can do great and meaningful work with the people that you love.”

Al: I trust you’re enjoying our podcast today. We’ll be right back after an important word for leaders.

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Welcome back to our conversation with Daniel Im at Beulah Alliance Church in Edmonton, Canada.

Daniel: So when we think about it from that perspective, it's like, okay, yeah, there's core values that we have, and we celebrate them with staff value, with awards, with nominations, with fun things to instill that. But we have these things called leadership virtues, and our leadership virtues, we teach them, we train them, we talk about them very often, we celebrate them, and part of these virtues, I believe, is what ties our team together and helps us recognize, hey, you know what? We are on the same team. Yes, we're a part of the same church family, but we are on the same team, and we're working toward the same goal, so let’s go.

Al: Wow. That’s fantastic, Daniel. Gosh, so you want to have a culture where you're doing great and meaningful work with people you love.

Daniel: Mm-hmm.

Al: That is succinct, and it’s so clear. And when people love one another in a church-staff setting, I believe that attracts people to Jesus. There's no question about that.

Daniel: Yeah.

Al: Well, so, you know, another thing that you've experienced and that Beulah Alliance is sharing in the results is that you're a multi-generational and a multi-ethnic church. And that's a beautiful representation of God's intention for the body of Christ, from my perspective. And churches, unfortunately, don't always reflect this diversity. So what are some of the opportunities and challenges you and your leadership team see as you lead this diverse body of Christ forward?

Daniel: Well, you got the biblical vision, right, in Revelation. Every nation, tribe, tongue, people, language, worshiping the King of kings and the Lord of lords. So as we reflect on that, I recognize that not every neighborhood and county, province, city reflect that. Edmonton does. Edmonton is 1.5 million people in greater Edmonton, and it is an incredibly growing and diverse city. So I love the fact that as a church family, both on our staff, with our campus pastors in all of our campuses throughout the city, and in our congregation, that we reflect that multi-generational, multi-ethnic side of the church.

I mean, Beulah’s almost 102 years old. So it's just, I love the fact that we have 90-something-year-olds. I know this one 92-year-old in our congregation who has been a part of Beulah for 91 years of their 92. Right? Another who, we started live streaming in 1927, 1927 on the radio. So on Easter of 1927 and doing communion, printing it in the newspaper, that on Saturday, that we're doing communion the next day. And we have a congregant who took communion on the farm over the radio, and now they're at Beulah, and their kids are at Beulah, and it’s just this legacy. And we have babies, and we have grade sixes and grade sevens that are sitting in the church. So it's incredibly diverse ethnically and also age.

So there's, yeah, like you said, lots of opportunities, but there's a lot of challenges in trying to figure out, how do you communicate to that diverse of a group, and how do you minister in an effective way?

One of the things that I think every church leader, not even every church leader, every leader needs to recognize in the West is that we just, we live in a consumeristic culture. And neither here nor there; that’s just the culture we're living in. It's the air that we're breathing. It's the water that we're swimming in. So what are the tenets of consumerism? Well, in consumerism you emphasize your comfort, your convenience, and your choice, right? And it's all about the individual's comfort, convenience, and choice. And if one restaurant can do comfort, convenience, and choice better than the next restaurant, then they win, and the other one loses. So just like you look up restaurants on Google Maps, people look up churches on Google Maps. And just like you rate restaurants on Google Maps, people rate churches on Google Maps. And it's, some of them are great, and there's a bunch that are horrible. And you just need to remember, okay, well, we're all sinners. Yes. We're all sinners. We're also all saints. So how do we, recognizing that everyone's going to come into the church with a consumeristic lens, prioritizing their comfort, convenience, and choice, how do we lead, not pandering to people's ever-changing choices? How do we make sure that, yes, we listen, and there are feedback loops, and I'm available, and I'm accessible, but weighing that against the vision that God has called us to?

So I’m always in the hallways. Like, I'm always in the lobby before and after the church. I always make myself accessible to our congregation. Emails come in, and I'll respond to every single one of them, unless they're anonymous. And, I mean, one email was anonymous, and we were able to track down who actually sent it. So we found their email list, and they're like, “Oh, this was supposed to be anonymous.” So there are ways to track.

Al: Oops.

Daniel: Yeah. So, I'm always listening, right? Like, I'm always listening. I'm always discerning. But it's weighing that against, okay, this vision that God has called us to. I can't please everyone. And there are going to be people who, I'm 30 years younger than Keith, for a large part of the congregation, they're used to a lead pastor being older than them. Now their lead pastor’s younger than them. How do you respond there? I am a different ethnicity than Keith. I have a different background than Keith. So there's this constant shifting of culture, constant shifting of people, so it’s just really that balance of what is God’s vision? what is God's call? versus, yeah, let's listen. Let's see what we need to learn.

Al: Yeah. And Daniel, I really appreciate what you're saying, is that you're listening. And in order to understand what people, what their choices are around comfort, convenience, and choice, you're listening and learning and adapting to within the vision, as you say.

Daniel: Mm-hmm.

Al: Address those things which encourages and engages people, multi-generational and multiethnic. No question. And it takes relationship. And of course, the first step in relationship is listening and trust building. And that's great.

Well, sometimes leaders think they know what their staff is thinking and feeling, and it can take some courage—we found this to be true—it takes courage to dive in, for a leader in your position, and learn more and to really have the open heart to listen, as we've talked about. So what would you say to a pastor or another leader who is listening, and they just might be reluctant to actually ask in an anonymous survey their staff how they feel about their workplace? Maybe they're a little afraid of what they might learn.

Daniel: Yeah.

Al: So what would you say to leaders about the benefits of assessing your employee engagement and your culture overall?

Daniel: I would say I get it. If you're feeling that way, that's natural. And you know what? If you don't have the right culture, if, like, your board doesn't have your back, then it could be a potentially dangerous thing. If you know things that you haven't been communicating to your board or to leadership above you, and there are things that you're hiding, then, yeah, it can be a potentially very dangerous thing to your job. So I would say number one, more than anything, we are first and foremost responsible as stewards to God. And if our primary responsibility is to be faithful stewards with the talents that God has entrusted us with—not comparing—but God has entrusted us with this, and we are in these positions, then we first need to make sure that we are good with God, that we are clear with Him, and that we are growing in self-awareness.

We all have blind spots. And I don't think there's ever going to be a day where we're going to be completely self-aware as leaders, but are you at least growing toward that end? And that's why I was a part of a succession cohort, a group of other pastors doing succession. I have a preaching coach to get better at preaching. I have a counselor that I see every month, and I don't plan on not seeing her, because she's helping me grow and mature in self-awareness and work through issues from my past. And I want to succeed. I want to do well. I want to achieve. I want to move things forward. But I've learned so much about myself in this.

And Sun Tzu in the Art of War, it’s a really old book, and this is the paraphrase. But he basically said—

Al: It’s a classic.

Daniel: —but he basically said—

Al: Yeah.

Daniel: —a paraphrase, If you know your enemy, you're going to win half the battles. But if you know yourself, you'll win the other half. Right? And I think too many leaders spend more time learning about the enemy or learning about others and not enough time learning about themselves.

So I'd say, first and foremost, you need to be a learner of yourself and who God has called you to be, and be firm and secure in that identity. And that's why I wrote the last book that I wrote, You Are What You Do: And Six Other Lies about Work, Life, & Love, right? It's a lie: you are what you do. I don't believe that you are what you do. It's a lie. One of the seven, right?

Al: We’re human beings, not human doings.

Daniel: Exactly.

Al: I mean, that’s—

Daniel: Exactly. Right? So we got to do that.

But I think second to that, you need to have a clarifying moment with your board to make sure that they have your back. So I would say the second part is, does your leadership, does your board have your back in this, regardless of what the results may show, positive or negative? Steve Carter, my preaching coach, he likes to say, “Nothing to prove, nothing to lose, nothing to hide.” I love that, right? “Nothing to prove, nothing to lose, nothing to hide.” So is there that sense that you have both in your calling to the ministry, your calling to that church, to the role or the organization, the role that you're in?

So I remember when I was interviewing for this position, knowing that I don't have the experience that Keith does, I asked the board. I was like, “Hey, so if I come in—maybe it's not me, maybe it's someone else, whoever comes in—can I just ask one thing? Whether it's me or someone else, okay? Can I just ask that whoever you hire, that you don't hire them like it's America's Got Talent, where they're coming in with three x’s? Because you know what? Whether it's me or someone else, all three of those x’s are going to be pushed by you, by congregants, by others, because there is no way that anyone is going to be able to stand up against someone who has that much more experience.” I mean, Keith is a leader of leaders, one of the best pastors in Canada, sought after, such a humble man. And I'm like, “If this is an evaluation system, and I feel like I got these three x’s, like, I'm not even going to come. Like, don't even hire anyone. They're just going to be a scapegoat.” And as I shared that, and eventually they did extend, and I'm happy to say that the board has my back. They know that God has called me here. We know that God has called us here. I don't feel like there are these x’s above me.

So in that freedom, am I going to want to do the Best Christian Workplaces Survey? Yes. Regardless of what the results say. Am I going to want to get coaching? Am I going to be open about the fact that I'm going to counseling? Yes, because they have my back. I’m not trying to prove my worth. I’m not trying to win my position. I know I'm accepted. I know I'm called. So we're all on the same team; let's use an independent survey, an anonymous survey, and just learn how to get better. So that's what I'd say.

Al: Yeah, fantastic. Well, yeah, we're all stewards of the calling of God. Oftentimes we’ll say that has given us, and that’s the same idea. Let's learn, let's grow, let's work together as a, in your case, the elder board and the staff and the congregants all together.

Daniel: Yeah.

Al: Well, you know, Daniel, I'd love to get your advice, and ? What really helped you in the transition? What would you maybe have done differently now that you're looking back with a couple of years of experience?

Daniel: Yeah. So I'm constantly learning, and what I've learned in all of this is that succession isn't done the moment the baton’s passed. I still got a few more years to go. So yes, I'm two years in at the time of this recording, but we are working towards the succession being complete at year five, six, seven. So we're constantly planning toward that when it comes to stewardship and strategy and all of our plan. So it's still going. It's not done the moment you pass the baton.

But I would say, you know, one of the things that I love about your Survey is that engagement score. And I remember Barry talking about it as a dragon boat race. And he's like, there are people who are paddling, right? They’re paddling with you. They’re in the positive. There are others who are neutral. The paddles just in the boat; they’re not for or against. And there are people who are putting their oars in the water and actively pushing against you.

And from last year, from two years ago to last year, the biggest change in our engagement score was from neutral to positive. I think it was, like, 2 or 3% that was in the unengaged, disengaged. That was about the same. So maybe one or two people. But the biggest change was from neutral to positive, and we had to say goodbye to a few of the disengaged folks. A few of the neutral folks, we had to say goodbye to as well. And what I would say in all of that, and this is something that a pastor from Houston gave me was advice. He said, “Daniel, when it comes to matters of staff, pray that God would release whoever He needs to release and bring whoever He needs to bring.”

Now when we look at our entire staff, yeah, we have we have a nine box, and we have development plans, and we are actively assessing and evaluating and rewarding staff that are doing above and beyond, and not just in terms of effort, but they're, like, positive contributors in all senses. And we want to be a place where people can grow and develop and be here long term. And we're doing all those sorts of things. But when it comes to some of the people who are, they just have their oar in the water or they're on the neutral side of things, we've just been constantly praying, “God, would You release whoever You need to release? Would You bring whoever You need to bring?” Sometimes that doesn't happen. Sometimes you need to make the active decision to let someone go. But more cases than not, God has just released and brought people. And I mean, it might seem like the easy way out, but this is His church, isn't it? This is His bride. He cares more about this vision and this church than I ever could. So sometimes that means trusting His timing more than mine. But yeah, that's what I'd say.

Al: That’s good. That’s great feedback, yeah. And a nine box, good for you. I’d like to hear more about more churches thinking about performance and potential, how to develop staff. That's part of, I’m sure, why your uplifting-growth scores as high as they are, because you're looking at people's individual performance, their potential, and helping them become who God has really designed and intended them to be.

Daniel: Oh, yeah. I mean, when I was at Lifeway for the five years, I was on the Lifeway leadership team, and my primary thing was consulting churches on establishing a leadership pipeline and doing all this.

Al: Yeah.

Daniel: So it's an area of passion for me.

Al: Wow. Fantastic.

Daniel: Yeah.

Al: Wow.

Daniel, we've learned so much from our conversation. Just, it’s really been great. As I think back of, first of all, the way you described your succession, that's a great model. It's intentional. It happened over a period of time. It really had multiple elder conversations, conversations over time, and some overlap. And then, just the communication that you talked about, building a culture where you're seeking input, where you're clearly defining roles and responsibilities, where you're cascading communication on a regular basis. Just outstanding. And then uplifting growth, as we talked about that a couple of times. Having an evaluation culture. So many churches don't even understand what a good evaluation is, but you're really working on development and having a hybrid, working with hybrid high-tech, high-touch approaches. But your foundation on values, providing great and meaningful work with people you love, really focusing on leadership virtues, you know, the character aspect of leadership, what a great conversation around diversity and how you're reflecting the community that you are part of. And yes, we're stewards of God's call, that we need to be self-aware of our own leadership. Of course, how we become self-aware of our leadership is by asking others through a confidential or an anonymous survey or a 360. And then, an interesting point: succession isn't done when you hand off the baton. Yeah. So that was really helpful. As well as the advice to a new person coming into the job, make sure you know who's on your team—

Daniel: Yeah.

Al: —and develop a team, and people are rowing with you in the same direction.

Daniel: That’s right.

Al: Yeah. So this has just been great.

Daniel, is there anything you'd like to add that we've talked about?

Daniel: Yeah. Engagement matters, culture matters, all of this matters. It's not just about preaching. I love preaching, and I could spend all week in my study if I could. But I reserve Monday, all day Monday, Tuesday to lunch, for my sermon, and then I'm done. And the rest of the week I focus on leading. And we need to be as faithful stewards in leading, listening, loving our team, volunteer or paid staff, as much as we do. If we could spend as much attention on that as we do in the Greek and the Hebrew and in the exegesis and the hermeneutics of preaching and all that stuff, imagine how much healthier the Bride of Christ could look. So I'm passionate about this. And Al, I love what you do. I love what your team does. Thank you for your legacy and your book and the organization. And, yeah, it’s been an honor to be a part of this.

Al: Well, thanks, Daniel. Warms my heart to have somebody basically say our vision of Christian workplaces—the church—should be the best, most effective places to work in the world.

Daniel: Oh, yes, of course. Yeah.

Al: And when that happens, more people will be attracted to Christ.

Daniel: That’s right.

Al: Yes. Well, thank you so much for your contributions today. And I can't tell you how much I appreciate your commitment to serving God's Kingdom through the local church. And we're really excited to see how God will continue to use you and Beulah Alliance to awaken greater Edmonton to King Jesus, as you described. So thanks for taking time out of your day and speaking into the lives of so many listeners.

Daniel: Thank you, Al.

And I'd love to connect with your listeners, too, so would love to help out in any way that I can.

Al: How can they connect with you?

Daniel: The easiest way would just be my website, danielim—I-M—dot com. So danielim.com, and there's links to all my social media and email and all that stuff through that. Or through the church's website, beulah.ca.

Al: Thank you very much.

Daniel: Awesome. Thanks.

Outro: The Flourishing Culture Leadership Podcast is sponsored by Best Christian Workplaces. If you need support building a flourishing workplace culture, please visit workplaces.org for more information.

We'll see you again next week for more valuable content to help you develop strong leaders and build a flourishing workplace culture.

Al: And join us next week as we talk about how to get out of a stuck, unhealthy staff culture and move on to the road to a flourishing workplace, with Bob Beckler and Justin Moore at Central Community Church in Wichita, Kansas.