Keys to Effective Christian Leadership: Leading Yourself, Teams, Culture, and Communication // Dr. Justin Irving, The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary

Flourishing Culture Leadership Podcast

“Keys to Effective Christian Leadership: Leading Yourself, Teams, Culture, and Communication“

May 6, 2024

Dr. Justin A. Irving

Intro: What are the essential qualities of a healthy leader? And how can you create a context where people flourish? Well, today on the Flourishing Culture Leadership Podcast, we'll look at how a healthy leader practices organizational stewardship. Listen in for leadership principles that you can incorporate into your own life so your organization can thrive.

Welcome: Welcome to the Flourishing Culture Leadership Podcast, your home for open, honest, and insightful conversations to help develop your leadership, your team, and build a flourishing workplace culture.

Al Lopus: Hello, I'm Al Lopus, the co-founder of the Best Christian Workplaces and author of the book Road to Flourishing: Eight Keys to Boost Employee Engagement and Well-Being. You know, I'm passionate about helping Christian leaders like you create engaged, flourishing workplaces.

I’m delighted to welcome Dr. Justin Irving to the podcast today. Justin’s a professor of Christian leadership at the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary and is also the author of Healthy Leadership for Thriving Organizations: Creating Contexts Where People Flourish.

Throughout our conversation, you'll hear Dr. Irving talk about how organizational stewardship starts with self-leadership, followed by cultivating teams, with a priority on people even before mission; how leaders protect and promote a culture that creates a context for people to flourish; how teamwork is based on the biblical images of collaboration; four keys to healthy communication; and also, his views on the state of Christian leadership today.

This episode is sponsored by the Best Christian Workplaces’ Employee Engagement Survey. Just like a seed needs the right environment to grow, your employees need a flourishing culture for your organization to thrive. Discover the health of your workplace culture with our easy-to-administer online Engagement Survey. Just visit workplaces.org and sign up today. Don't miss this springboard for growth. Act now so you can study your results and craft your action plans before this summer. Join a community where certification marks a standard and talent attraction, retention, and productivity. Empower your team, enhance your mission, elevate your workplace, because a certified best Christian workplace is where excellent lives. Start today at workplaces.org. That's workplaces.org.

Hello to our new listeners, and thanks for joining us as we honor your investment of time by creating valuable episodes like this.

Now, let me tell you just a little bit more about Dr. Justin Irving. Dr. Irving is the chair of the Department of Leadership and Discipleship, and a professor of Christian Leadership at the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Kentucky. He previously served as a professor of ministry leadership and director of the D.Min. program at Bethel Seminary. His Ph.D. is from Regent University, and he also has an MBA from Bethel University, and an M.Div. from Bethel Seminary. He's an author of the recently published book Healthy Leadership for Thriving Organizations, which I recommend. Justin has also coauthored and contributed to other leadership books. In addition to his academic work, he has served as a pastor, worship leader, and homeless-shelter chaplain.

So, here’s my conversation with Dr. Justin Irving.

Justin, it’s great to have you on the podcast, and I’m looking forward to our conversation today. And congratulations on having your book, Healthy Leadership for Thriving Organizations, named as the book of the year by the Christian Leadership Alliance.

Justin Irving: Well, I appreciate that. And thank you for the invitation to be on the podcast.

Al: So, our purpose of this podcast is to equip and inspire Christian leaders so that they can build an engaged, flourishing workplace. And we talk about leadership, but we don't always stop and define, what do we mean by the use of this term leadership? And in your book you use the phrase “organizational stewardship,” which is attractive to me just right off the bat from a biblical perspective. So, what do you mean by “organizational stewardship,” Justin? And why do you frame leadership this way? You know, why is stewardship or a stewardship mindset important for a healthy leader?

Justin: Well, I'm certainly not opposed to the language of leadership. Organizational leadership is an important conversation as well. But I think as we are bringing the leadership conversation to wider teams, to leading divisions, and particularly leading organizations as a whole, the commitment to stewarding something that doesn't ultimately belong to us becomes front and center. Now, I think for Christians, theologically, we have grounds for understanding that in light of the fact that we are stewarding delegated authority that has been given to us in light of the creation mandate. But I think that's not only an issue that's true from a vertical perspective, in terms of our relationship before the Lord. There's also a horizontal dimension of stewardship. We are stewarding things that impact the lives of others. And so while we want to have healthy ownership of what we are involved with—not kind of bringing a renter's mindset to organizations—we definitely want to emphasize that it is stewarding something. It is a trust that has been given to us on behalf of others that brings a sort of ethical and moral responsibility to leadership as we attend to that stewardship mindset of our organizations.

Al: It is the Lord's, isn't it? I love that. A trust that we've been given. Great.

So, Justin, you start your exploration of wisdom for organizational leaders by looking at self-leadership—I think that's the most appropriate thing to do—and the character and courage of a leader. So, your research for the book included surveying several hundred leaders, which I'm really looking forward to hearing more about. So, as I talk with leaders who are shepherding their flock well and leading a flourishing culture, I'm interested in learning how they have grown in their character through their season of leadership. So, share a few reflections on what these top leaders you surveyed say about how they grew in character. What common practices or exercises or experiences have leaders developed to deepen their own character? We talk about character first when it comes to hiring people in Christian workplaces. Reflect on that for us.

Justin: Yeah. That issue of character first is, of course, not just about the members of our organizations, but it needs to cascade from leadership down. I appreciate some of the emphases you've brought to this as well, as you talk about inspirational leadership in your model, being as such a high priority for the health and engagement of organizations. And I think as we think about attending to our own character and the growth of our character, it comes down to some pretty practical matters at times. Certainly, there are biblical foundations to this. New Testament authors, they encourage aspiring leaders to watch their life and doctrine closely. So there has to be an intentionality given to that, to not just paying attention to the work of leadership that's out there with other people, but recognizing that if we're going to be able to lead others well, we need to lead ourselves well first. And that means that we need to give time and attention to that. I think a lot of times, leaders with the busy pace of leadership and the demands of leadership, can push self-leadership aside. But when that self-leadership is being pushed aside, so is the intentionality to nurturing healthy character in our leadership as well. And so issues of time; issues of consistency; and I’d layer into that, issues of community, not going alone in the process of our character formation, is so vital for leaders who are guiding organizations today.

Al: Yeah. Wow. That's great. So, you're saying time and attention to really focus on your own character, consistency, and community. Those are great. Yeah.

So, from this foundation of self-leadership, you move into focusing on how a healthy leader cares and even cultivates their team. And you say being faithful in effective leadership is about caring for and valuing people. Healthy leadership is essentially relational. It's all about relationships, isn't it? And so we certainly see the importance of this in our work at Best Christian Workplaces. Engaged employees feel like they're valued and their work matters. So what does this care and cultivation of team members look like in practice, from your research and experience? You talk about four stages of caring for and cultivating team members. Walk us through what you've learned about how healthy leaders cultivate their teams.

Justin: I would say—you've mentioned the leaders that I've been able to engage in and report on in the book—the two top challenges or issues that they named among many were both people focused. One is what we just talked about: the need to have time and attention focused around on self-leadership, ensuring that busyness is not leading to isolation and lack of self-awareness, but there's a sense of giving care and attention to our own stewardship responsibility in self-leadership.

But the second element that was at the top of the list was just, how do we care for and cultivate our team members in an effective manner? And I would say that begins with just recognizing the priority of people. I think there can be a tension sometimes that leaders feel between whether their focus is going to be on the mission of the organization or on the people of the organization. I think that’s a false dichotomy. The way we accomplish our mission is by caring for the people of our organization who are going to deliver on that mission, which means we need to be really intentional in thinking about how we identify the right team members, how do we develop the right team members, how do we empower them, and how do we motivate them and sustain them so that they want to stick around and work with us on mission together?

And all of those elements together are vital. I dive into a lot of sub conversations around each of those four priorities in caring for and cultivating our team members. But it really comes down to ensuring that once we have the right people on the team, we're both pouring into them, we're equipping them and developing them, but then we're also empowering them. We are entrusting meaningful work to them, which takes some risk on the part of leadership to ensure that we're handing the keys over to people who've been well trained, and that allows an opportunity, then, to motivate them and encourage them along.

I appreciate what one business leader communicates in sort of a succinct, proverbial way on this, that we need to train people well enough that they could leave, but we need to treat them well enough that they don't want to. And I think if we can hit that sweet spot, the in caring for and cultivating our people, we're going to have a meaningful workforce, a meaningful volunteer force, to be able to serve together in mission.

Al: I often talk about the scripture in 1 Peter 5:2, shepherd the flock that God has entrusted to you. And I love your dichotomy, and it’s really the priority people. Now, sometimes leaders will think about the mission as, “Well, those are the people that God’s talking about.” But yeah, I love what you’re saying. It's actually you accomplish the mission through people. And the first flock I think that we should be caring about, much like the Jesus model, is caring for your people who are actually doing the ministry in an expanded way than you can do yourself. Yeah.

So, well, the heart of your discussion of healthy leadership and thriving organizations is around—I love this topic—organizational culture. So you know that all organizations have a culture, but leaders have the opportunity and stewardship responsibility to ensure that culture is setting the conditions for organizational thriving and human flourishing. Again, I like the way you differentiate thriving organizations and human flourishing. And I wholeheartedly agree with you, that prioritizing culture is an essential responsibility for the leader. It's the leader who has the most impact, no question about culture. So, take us a little deeper into this topic. You know, what happens when there's misalignment of organizational identity and culture? What are some of the practical steps that our listeners, that a leader, can take to define and align their culture so it reflects the values and even the mission of the organization?

Justin: Well, I think many individuals, I think even you in your book, have engaged this often quoted, “Culture eats strategy for breakfast.” And at the end of the day, culture and strategy don't have to be at odds, but we better not miss culture in the equation. Yes, we want strategy that's going to serve our organizations well, but the culture of the community just is something that a leader cannot forsake. We need to work hard that we are protecting and promoting a culture, because this healthy culture, this thriving culture, is what creates a context within which people can flourish.

Now, one of the dangers that often can happen is a misalignment of the identity of the organization and the culture. And I think many people have experienced this before. They see what's on the website, they see the stated values, they see the stated purpose and mission, but there's a disconnect between the stated identity and the actual cultural ethos and value.

Now, that's a reality I think many organizations have to lean into. The problem is, are we unaware of that and unwilling to address the gap? Or are we seeing the gap and viewing that as an opportunity to mature and grow into health?

And here's where just some wisdom from people like Max De Pree are helpful on this front. He's well known for saying that the first responsibility of the leader is to define reality. Part of defining reality is just saying, what's the true story here? which means—and this is wisdom that comes from many of the leaders that I talked to—reality is our friend from a leadership perspective. We want to know what the real story is. And I'm thankful for organizations like the one you're connected with, where you're wanting to provide diagnostic tools that give the real story in terms of workplace engagement. What are people experiencing in that community? What is the true story? Leaders need to be willing to point to the truth and tell the truth, and then to work from that towards the values and belief and overall mission that organization cares about.

The danger is when there's a lack of willingness to address the gap. I think when many organizations experience a gap, we want to be able to name reality, lean into that reality, and work towards a thriving and healthy culture based upon that awareness .

Al: Back to the character discussion, Justin, it takes a real healthy character where people will listen to feedback to understand what that gap is. Yeah, I love Max De Pree’s definition of defining reality, and communicating reality is the first job of a leader. Absolutely. And leading into gaps, and that's the hard part with culture, is you can't see it. So, being able to measure it and lean into it is really great.

Well, let's talk a little bit about fantastic teams. This happens when there's diverse skills, where collaboration flows effortlessly, where there's diverse backgrounds and they're represented and people have voices, and team members are supported and valued. So you and I know that from research and experience that teams are not always fantastic. And you point out that we have to collaborate with our eyes open. Healthy leaders understand both the challenges and the benefits of teams. So what would you say to a leader who's listening that's frustrated right now with the way their teams are functioning in their organization? You know, every day is a different day when it comes to teamwork. And some of our listeners are probably driving to work right now, and they're just thinking about their teams that aren't the way they want them to be. So what principles can you share about the benefits of teamwork and collaboration for our listeners?

Justin: Well, I might refer back to a phrase I noted earlier, that reality is our friend when it comes to the challenges and benefits of teams as well. We shouldn't pretend that doing work collaboratively through teams is easy work. That's just not the case. Working with teams and groups actually takes more time and more energy on the part of most leaders. The issue is not whether it is easier; the issue is, is whether it is better work that is done. And that’s where my convictions come to play here. As I look to biblical principles of collaboration, we see the New Testament speaking to images of the body of Christ and working together in harmony. There's a sense of better work that's done in the team context, which points to that African proverb that I write about and talk to students about regularly: if you want to go fast, go alone. If you want to go far, go together. So the issue is doing work on our own is, in isolation or as individuals, that often is going to be more efficient work. It is going to be faster work. My point is not to argue against that. The point is leaning in to the health of collaboration means that we are committing ourselves to long-term effectiveness. We're committing ourselves to significant accomplishment as we are partnering with others. So teams generally are preferable when the stakes are high and when quality is more important than speed. And so when there's increased complexity, when the stakes are high, we want to lean into the work of doing things collaboratively.

Now, this also connects to even the distinction we might have between groups and teams, right? Groups oftentimes have sort of short-term life spans, doesn't take quite as much relational fabric just to do a group project quickly. But when we have long-term work to do, we want to nurture healthy team dynamics that are going to serve the mission of the community well over the long haul.

Al: I like that differentiation, groups versus teams. And let me challenge our listeners. Do you have a group that you're working with, or are you working with a team? And to think about those differences is really interesting.

I trust you’re enjoying our podcast today. We’ll be right back after an important word for leaders.

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Al: Welcome back with Dr. Justin Irving.

Well, when we talk about leadership, of course there's always the point of communication. So let's tackle one more attribute that's critical to leadership and to healthy leaders, and that's communication. You addressed the importance of clarity in communication, and you tie clarity to trust in leadership. And clearly, trust and communication are hand in hand. So what are some of the essential attributes of communication that a leader needs to demonstrate to provide an atmosphere of clarity and trust in an organization?

Justin: That's really important for leaders to grapple with, both the importance of communication and why that's significant, and how we can approach it in a meaningful manner. I think, just to reiterate the importance of it, we can have people who are effective communicators that are not effective leaders, but I don't think it goes the other way. If we are to be effective leaders, it involves effective communication process. It really is the core of what leaders do. As leaders are seeking to cast a vision of where we're going in the future, providing strategy on how we're going to get there, and then aligning and motivating people along the way, all of those things are communication tasks on the part of the leader. And so doing that well is just an essential quality for an organizational leader and a team leader. It helps to align your team. It helps to build trust. It helps to inspire them.

And in terms of what contributes to healthy and effective communication practice, there's a few different elements I'd point to. I think leaders need to pay attention to regularity and consistency in their communication. Most leadership communication is not one and done. People need to be reminded of the mission. People need to be reminded of what matters most, the values and beliefs that are governing the organization. Circling back to these things regularly and consistently is a leader's responsibility.

We also need to think about multiple pathways and channels. Especially in our day and age, where we have digital means of communication, live means of communication, and various mediated forms of communication, leaders need to understand that they need to bring their core leadership message to multiple channels and multiple pathways as they're working increasingly with team members that are distributed and not centered in one location.

I would note two other things about effective communication. Leaders need to be effective storytellers, and when they can bridge effective storytelling with their own story, capturing their own voice as a leader, it helps to illustrate the importance of the core mission of the organization in a way that personalizes it with what matters to the leader.

Final thing I’d say, which I noted in your discussions of communication as well, Al, and that is the vital nature of two-way, others-centered communication that prioritizes listening as well. Leaders cannot just view it as habit that they have all the information that they need to do their job. The way we effectively lead others, it includes listening to others and being sure that we're responding to what we hear in that others-centered, two-way communication process.

Al: Yeah. I remember talking to church leadership team, and we were talking about, in their Survey results, the healthy communication wasn't very strong. And the person I was talking with said, “Well, we're going to fix that because we've got communicators at our church, you know, professional communicators.” And I said, “No. I don't think that's really going to be the solution to your communication issue, because your communicators, your professional communicators, are mostly probably talking about one-way communication, not the two-way communication.”

But yeah, I love your four points here. Fantastic, yeah. To pay attention to regularity of communication and consistency; multiple pathways, especially in these days and particularly in many of our hybrid situations that we still see, having multiple pathways; being storytellers; and listening and responding. Great points.

So, Justin, you're a researcher and a thinker, and you observe what's happening in Christian leadership around the country, around the world. And you're in a chair, you're in a university, you're in a seminary that really helps to build leadership going forward. So from your research and the conversations that you have with Christian leaders, what is the state of Christian leadership now in 2024? I mean, this is a big question, but I'd be interested in your thoughts. What gives you hope as you think about leadership going forward in this Christian world that we live in?

Justin: I think in some ways, when we talk about the current state of Christian leadership, perhaps in any era, we need to acknowledge that there's always going to be a mixed story to tell. So on the one hand, there's great hope that I have as I see people coming to their churches and organizations with a hunger for things like purpose and meaning. You talk about this in terms of life-giving work. People need a sense of direction and purpose and meaning behind what they're doing. And that hunger is there, and it's present. And leaders who are willing to meet people in that with their own sense of purposefulness and being authentic leaders who are connected to a deep sense of purpose themselves, there's great opportunity. People are ready to trust that kind of leadership.

I think at the same time, we see an era where there is a lot of confusion about leadership. People are feeling the complexity of this unique time on the political landscape, as an example. People are feeling the weight of many leadership failures in diverse organizational sectors. And that's a discouragement to people. That doesn't build the trust that people so desperately long for out of their leaders.

And so what is this? This is both a mixed message of discouragement and encouragement, right? And I think the bottom line is it is an opportunity for us as Christian leaders to lean into the dynamics we have been talking about from the early parts of this conversation, that is the priority of leader character. It's an opportunity to lean into this hunger that people have for institutions and people that they can trust.

One of my bottom-line convictions that I have in the book that I have recently engaged and written is that healthy leaders contribute to thriving organizations which create contexts for people to flourish. And if we're going to just kind of back the train up in those three important areas, that means we need to start with healthy leaders, faithful and effective leaders who are tending to character in their lives. That's the call and that's the hope that I have is that we have a beautiful and powerful gospel that leaders can be leaning into in this process of character formation in their own lives.

I circle back to one of the early voices on leadership development from a Christian perspective in the 20th century, J. Robert Clinton and his work on the making of a leader. And one of his big takeaways in that kind of model of leadership-emergence theory is that God is more interested in working in you then He is in working through you. And I think if leaders take that seriously and they take their own growth seriously, they take their own character formation seriously, they're going to be leaning into that call to be the kind of people that God is at work within. And those are the people that God ends up using as well.

And so there's great hope in the midst of the challenge. But that's a little of my reflections on the current need in this time as we think about Christian leaders.

Al: Yeah, boy, you're exactly right. And as we're all reading, you know, this next generation is interested in purpose and meaning at work, they will work at a place that provides that purpose and meaning. Also, I think we're seeing a lot that the next generation is interested in, social justice, which is, again, something that the church should be on the front lines of and is on the front lines of. And yet we need to focus on the healthy leaders. I love the way you describe it: healthy leaders create thriving organizations where people can flourish. I love the way you described that.

Well, Justin, it's just been a great conversation. We've learned so much from it. I love your book. And as I mentioned earlier, I love the theological underpinning of people flourishing. And I encourage our listeners to look at it. And I love your focus on self-leadership as a start, character first. And leaders, let's make sure that we have character that's deep enough to handle the leadership challenges that we face. We've seen too many where their leadership has really been swallowed by the lack of character, and hurt people and organizations. And how we really need to focus on cultivating our teams. And, yeah, culture eats strategy for breakfast. We all know that. And so protecting and promoting a culture really helps to create a context where people can flourish. Amen to that. And we talked about teamwork. And it's not easy work. And sometimes it is harder to get more people involved than doing it yourself. But it really is important. And the biblical message is we are the body of Christ. There's no question. So really, work to build teams and turn your groups, those that don't have some of the common characteristics of teams, build those into teams for effectiveness. And the importance of healthy communication. You gave us four key things to focus on there. So yeah, let's build and be healthy leaders so that we can build thriving organizations so that our people flourish.

Yeah, this is just great. Thanks so much for this conversation.

How about something you'd like to add that we've talked about and as you’ve reflected on our conversation today

Justin: Well, I really appreciate the opportunity we've had to talk about the priority of healthy leadership and thriving organizations, working towards flourishing people. These are themes that I know you personally resonate with as well as you're calling people to this road to flourishing. Love that kind of like-minded heart that you have on this front.

I think I’d just point to maybe one more thing, and this comes from an earlier book that I wrote called Leadership in Christian Perspective. And it just lays out the general church trajectory, that we move from healthy leaders who are modeling what matters. In other words, we're not just expecting things of other people; we need to model for our communities what we expect of them. But we move from that, the right kind of leaders who are prioritizing the people of their organizations, valuing them, appreciating them, creating a place for them to grow. And that when we model the way, when we invest in people and prioritize people, that gives us a platform to navigate towards effectiveness and mission, which is a priority for all of us as we think about stewarding the work that God has entrusted into our care.

Al: Well, thanks so much for your contribution today, Justin. And most of all, I appreciate your commitment to investing in healthy leadership practices for Christian leaders. So thanks for taking your time out today and speaking in the lives of so many of our listeners.

Justin: Thank you, Al.

Al: And thanks for tuning in. That wraps my delightful conversation and exchange with Dr. Justin Irving. And what a journey.

Did it spark your curiosity? Get the inside scoop and dive deeper into our dialog by checking out the show notes and transcript waiting for you over at workplaces.org/podcast.

Got a flash of inspiration or a burning question about nurturing a flourishing workplace culture? I'm all ears. Drop a line to al@workplaces.org, and let's keep the conversation alive.

And leaders, if you want to improve your leadership and expand your organization's impact for good and see greater faithfulness in our broader culture, help us achieve our goal to see more flourishing Christian-led workplaces. To help, please share this podcast with another leader or launch a project in your own organization to discover and improve the health of your workplace culture. If you're interested in learning more, go to workplaces.org and request a sample report.

Outro: The Flourishing Culture Leadership Podcast is sponsored by Best Christian Workplaces. If you need support building a flourishing workplace culture, please visit workplaces.org for more information.

We'll see you again next week for more valuable content to help you develop strong leaders and build a flourishing workplace culture.