Transcript: 5 Steps for Moving Through Major Life Transitions // Jon DeWaal, Liminal Space

The Flourishing Culture Podcast Series

Al Lopus: Hi, I’m Al Lopus, and you’re listening to the Flourishing Culture Podcast, where we help you create and lead a flourishing workplace. We find the problem many employers are facing today is readjusting to our post-COVID, hybrid world. The great resignation is still evident, where employees are quitting at record levels, filling millions of open jobs, even as we face a cooling economy and record-setting wage inflation. We know that having a flourishing workplace with fully engaged employees is the solution. So this week, we’re talking about moving forward on the road to flourishing, no matter where you’re starting from.

Al: What do you do when you’re in a season of transition, in a time of waiting and not knowing the future? Well, one term for this season is a liminal space, literally a threshold. And even if you’re not in this situation today, we all face transitions in life, in our leadership, in our organizations, even in our families. Today’s Flourishing Culture Podcast will highlight ways to move through a transition season in a thoughtful, meaningful process.

I’m delighted to welcome Jon DeWaal. Jon is the founder of Liminal Space, and his life work is to guide people through transitions to clarify their calling and purpose.

Jon, it’s great to have you on the Flourishing Culture Podcast.

Jon DeWaal: Al, it’s so good to be here. I really appreciate you inviting me on.

Al: I’m looking forward to our conversation, Jon.

Let’s start with your background. You’ve worked in various ministry settings, you’ve worked in businesses, you’ve gone through maybe a few of your own transitions, and you also pursued an advanced degree in education and taught at the Seattle School of Theology and Psychology. And that’s got a great reputation. So how have your own life transitions helped you in thinking on how people can move through the inevitable changes of life in a healthy, positive way?

Jon: Yeah. That’s such a good question. And I think I do this a lot with clients as I begin my work with them. Over the years, especially in more recent years, in light of the pandemic, we all come into these times of what are supposed to be reflective, discerning conversations in my sessions with clients. And a lot of them come in, like, really hot off three or four meetings in a row or whatever crisis they’re managing.

And I begin typically with a reading or a poem or a video. So as you know—so that’s how I actually want to begin today, because it feels relevant to the question you’re asking. And I want to read a poem by Rumi. It’s called “The Guest House.” [poem not included due to copyright laws]

I love that, the imagery of a guide being sent from beyond. And as I have considered going into this conversation, I’m in the midst of a pretty significant life transition myself. We’re just welcoming our fourth baby into our family. We’re six weeks into it. And as you might imagine, like with any baby, it’s an intense upheaval to life as we knew it.

But also, looking back at some of these other past transitions, moving out here from Michigan to go to graduate school; of course, marriage and having kids, to begin with that journey. I used to be a business owner as a contractor. I fell off a roof and completely changed the trajectory of my story. I’ve had business ideas that fail and fall flat on their face. Of course, the pandemic. Just these huge events in my life and in my family and in my business and work that have been game changers.

And in full disclosure, like, every single one of them, I want to keep that uninvited guest out. I don’t want to open that door. They do not feel like guides initially. They feel like huge levels of messiness and disruption, and they slow down my sense of what progress was supposed to look like, some version of typically up and to the right was what I was planning on, and these events seemed to shake that narrative big time. And that makes it so confusing and overwhelming in those moments when those unexpected guests show up. So I push back against that, as most human beings do. It’s just not fun.

But I think as I examine these moments further, even the one that I’m in right now, and welcome all that it brings, welcome all the discomfort of the reality that I find myself in, and resist some of that energy that wants to barricade the door and keep that guest out, when I welcome that guest in, there’s something that I’m being invited to learn that’s revealing more and more of who I am and what the reality of my life is inviting me to see more clearly and act courageously in the midst of.

And this is hard work, and it does not happen overnight, as most of us know, who’ve been through these seasons. You, yourself included. But I’m learning more and more that with each of these moments, this is not being done to me. This is being done for me. There’s something in this moment that could actually even be a gift if I allow it. And one of those most significant gifts is just I’m learning how to be me. I’m learning that this is a journey that I’m on, learning about what it means for me to be me with the life that I’ve been given, with how I’ve been designed and created by our Creator, and to be in relationship with a loving God who wants good things for me. I’m learning how to do that. And this massive disruption, just like the wilderness for Israel, is what this moment’s all about. And if I can learn to welcome with openness and feel all that it holds and not push back against it—feel it all, bring it all, see it all—it might just have something that transforms me into a better person and a more-true self that I think God would like to see more of and I think I would as well.

Al: Yeah. I’m just listening, Jon. I think you gave me a book, and I remember a quote is something like, life is in the transitions, how sometimes we think life is when things are going up and to the right, as you say, but that’s not really true, even though that’s when it feels good at times. But, yeah, life is in the transitions.

Well, Jon, you know, I’ve personally benefitted, as I referred to earlier, from your guidance as we are working through the succession plan at the Best Christian Workplaces Institute, and I just want to say thank you. You also—I appreciate this—helped our staff, through me, consider their own thoughts and feelings about succession, and that was very helpful. We were in an offsite, and you coached me with the questions, and we had one of my colleagues, Cary Humphries, kind of lead a focus group to just kind of bring out the discussion. And I mention this because even though I wanted our succession plan to work, and I was fully invested in turning over BCWI to Jay Bransford’s capable leadership, I needed some help to let go because, you know, I remember I was in a meeting and I was like, I felt diminished. I just thought, “Jay’s doing all the stuff that I used to like to do.” And here I am. I’m one of the founders, and I feel like I’m letting my baby go. And gosh, do I have any future here, and will I be able to—well, what scared me—I mean, it literally scared me—is if I acted on those feelings of holding onto something, that I knew that would derail the succession. So what is it about changes, you know? Good changes, even though they’re good, positive plan for changes that catch people off guard and lead us to question our value and future. Why do we often need someone to help guide us through these kinds of processes?

Jon: Yeah. Such a good question. And I just, as I’m already explaining and sharing a bit about my story, like, I join you in that same space of uncertainty and overwhelm that comes with change. You know what that’s like as a human being, first and foremost. And think as—so as I’ve considered my own and as I’ve walked with so many leaders through theirs, you mentioned that book, Life Is in the Transitions and by Bruce Feiler. And for me, I read that back when the pandemic was getting started, and learned so much, and some of the research that book reveals was really eye opening, several statistics that that jump out.

The number of disruptors that any one person will go through in their life is right around three dozen. And by disruptors, chosen or not, by disruptors I mean anything that has to do with, say, like, taking on a new job, getting married, having a kid, moving to a new town, buying a house, on and on. Those kinds of, that you can look at and say, “That was a change. That was a big change, that area of life.”

And then, the research shows, that he reveals, is that for everybody, we go through these bigger disruptions, and he calls them life quakes. And this is when more than one area of life is shaken to its core. We’re on the Richter scale of life change. It’s, like, a 9.0. This is the divorce papers that were served unexpectedly. This is the business that crashes and burns. How many people saw that happen in the last three years from the pandemic? This is the cancer diagnosis. These kinds of moments where there’s a distinct before and after. And for you, I mean, I would argue that letting your baby go and putting that baby in the hands of another human being is a life quake, right? It’s a huge moment where there’s a distinct before and after.

And I don’t know what it is. There’s a lot of things that we could probably spend hours talking about, but in our culture, we aren’t taught that’s normal. We are told that our life is this climb that progresses, and if you do the hard work and you obey and play by the rules, you’re going to see one thing unfold after another, according to hard work and a good plan. And then these things happen, though, that tell us, “Wait a second. Those aren’t the rules that I was living by, and something went sideways here. And now I have to rethink this.” And that’s actually normal. The research shows that is normal. We spend half of our lives responding to disrupters and life quakes. Half of our lives.

And life quakes, by the way, take on average five years to play out. That’s a long time, right? And yet how often, when we go through this experience, do we immediately think, “Oh, no. This is so wrong. I’m missing something. It’s my fault. I must have read the plan wrong or missed a sign back there,” when in reality, like, well, maybe you had some say and maybe you did contribute, but you’re also going through something that’s really normal.

And I think part of why it throws us for a loop is we’re not taught that from the beginning that this is going to happen. The change that we go through in life is not the problem. That’s not the problem. If we had any person pop into this call right now and we said, “Tell us about your life,” they would tell us about life quakes. They would tell us about stories of change. That happens to everybody.

The problem is we don’t know what to do with the uncertainty that it kicks up. We do not know what to do with the plot that’s been flipped on its head, and we can’t see the way forward anymore. How do we put the story back together? How do we make sense of it?

And that’s what transition is. That’s what liminal spaces are all about. It’s about finding, understanding, metabolizing what just happened, and how to move forward in the midst of that. Hopefully, as human beings that aren’t fearful and afraid and acting in a survival reactive space, but moving to that word that you are building this whole podcast around—flourishing—people of faith, people of deep hope and love that want to see reality as clearly as we can and respond with guts and hearts that are tender, that’s what liminal spaces are all about, whether we’re talking about the individual or teams that are leading together in organizations.

And to answer that second question, why does it make us question our value? I want to just bring back something that you said, that that word diminishment. Say a little bit more. I’m so curious. Say a little bit more about, like, what you were feeling, not so much thinking about, as you were turning those reins over to Jay.

Al: Well, specifically in that, when I felt that feeling of diminishment, I have created this. I’m doing things that I like to do. I like to lead. I like to have the role in moving people forward to accomplish a specific thing. And here I am; I’m not the one doing that anymore. Now, for the organization to succeed, somebody else has to be able to do that. But I’m not the one doing it. And it was, “Oh, I’m not as significant. I’m not as competent.” I’m an achiever, so I like to get into something where I can actually see some progress that I’m pulling together. And here, now I’m letting go. And that’s a different feeling. So somebody else has—maybe it’s a little jealousy in there—somebody else has got the opportunity to do that, and I am not. I hadn’t really thought about that so much, but those were the feelings that I was kind of grappling back.

And what I realized is if I started to act on those feelings and start to pull back and say, “Oh, but I deserve to have a chance to continue to do this. I deserve to take back some of this leadership,” I know I would have been completely undermining the entire process, and that my ultimate goal of a full, successful transition to the next generation would fail, maybe not in a short term, but certainly at some point. So yeah, those were some of the feelings I had, Jon.

Jon: Yeah. That’s so well said. You’re actually describing, if you hadn’t done that work, you’re describing what founderism is, right?

Al: And I’ve seen so many of those fail.

Jon: Ah, I bet you have. I bet you have.

Al: Yeah.

Jon: That’s actually a way of—that word is nothing more, really, than a denial of reality. It’s refusing to believe that this story is coming to an end, which, therefore, compromises the potential of what the story could become in the future. It’s taking the other aspect of succession, which is the inheritance, and putting that at risk, right? So fundamentally, like, if you didn’t lean into that work, there is a whole series of events that your naming could have continued to unfold that in the near term may have looked fine on the outside. “Oh, Al’s wonderful. We love him. We’re so glad he’s here.” Like, on and on. Like, “He’s a great leader.” And yet your story there and your story here on this earth, that we are all moving through, is going to come to an end. Loss and death. Like, that’s the story out ahead for all of us. And so to name that for ourselves, as clear as we can in these moments of transition, that doesn’t mean, obviously, every major transition’s heading in this moment towards death. But that’s—when we’re talking about this one for you, like, why is that so hard to do? because you’re essentially taking your baby and bringing that baby to college and seeing that child leave you and that feeling of “They don’t need me anymore.” The value that I derived my life around comes from that baby.

And that’s, I think from my vantage point as someone who’s guided a lot of leaders, it’s really hard to separate value from identity. Our value has been so tightly bound to the thing that we’ve been creating, and that’s actually, for many of us, it’s a sign of unhealth. It’s a sign that we’ve held on to something too tightly, and it should be in cupped hands that are holding it open, saying, “Ultimately, this is not mine. Ultimately, I’m using the life and the gifts that I’ve been given to steward this thing along until the right time that it is for me to let it go,” because, ultimately, it’s all a process of letting go.

David Whyte, the poet, talks about this as a disappearance, like the becoming familiar in relationship with this idea of this longer road of disappearing. I like how he talks about that in his very Irish way. But that’s really what this moment, I think, was for you, that you leaned into. Like, how do I separate my value from this beautiful thing that I’ve created and recognize that I’m not dead yet? I still have plenty to give, plenty to create with this life that I have as long as I have breath.

Al: Yeah. So far, we’ve been talking about examples of voluntary transitions. I mean, I’m thankful that this was—my situation was a voluntary transition. I’ve been in situations where those transitions weren’t so voluntary. And our audience is mostly leaders who are men and women who find themselves in conversations when they are terminating other people, and many of us have been terminated ourselves and sometimes by surprise. And so, you know, no matter the circumstances, the affected employee generally faces a dramatic change. And, well, they don’t look at it as an opportunity for personal growth. And I’m so thankful that after years of experience, I can look back, and I think it’s also a scriptural thing, to be thankful for those situations because you do grow from them.

What I like about your work is you’ve developed a framework to help people work through these major life transitions with some clarity and some confidence. Let’s start with the first two steps of your framework. You call it ending and waiting. So describe these two steps for us, Jon. Share why you think it’s so important for us to do the foundational work before someone can move on to the next steps of change. So ending and waiting.

Jon: Yeah. Well, before I say anything about those two, what I do want to say is a disclaimer. Like, I’m going to offer five steps or five parts of this approach, but it’s a rather messy journey through all five because I can’t just simply say, “Look, for the first two sessions together, we’re going to talk about ending. And then we’re going to talk about waiting,” and on and on. It’s rather messy, just like wandering through the wilderness. There’s a meandering that occurs between these different phases. On one day it may feel like the promised land is right there, and your feet are touching the soil. And the next day it may feel like, wait a second, I’ve made no progress at all. The whole thing’s ending and crumbling still. That’s part of the nature of moving through seasons of change and transition. That’s part of what it means to be human in these wilderness spaces.

So ending, ending. We believe that, in this approach, that—and I think there’s all kinds of biblical grounding for this—is that ending is essentially a time to truthfully name and engage the loss that’s present, the letting go that’s occurring. That is what the wilderness was about for Israel. You are leaving behind a story that is no more. You are learning to be honest about that story and seeing the reality for what it is. You’re acknowledging that there’s a story back there that even though it was slavery, it held meaning. And that’s to say there’s a familiarity there. There’s a comfort there. And in the wilderness, these moments feel uncomfortable, and they feel hard, and there’s so much wrapped up in all of that space that’s about letting go of a way of doing life or a way of seeing the story, and whether we’re talking about being downsized or losing a job or even a wanted one, like starting a new job and being promoted. The leaders I’ve worked with who have had great promotions and achieved new levels of leadership, and yet they look back at what they were doing and go like, “Oh, I so wish I could go back there. It was easier. It was known. I don’t know what I’m doing right here.” And that’s part of this space of ending. It’s about being honest with that space, and in that honesty, feeling all that needs to be felt, and that’s to say grieving. But an important part of that is sharing that grief. As you know, how important it is for you in this experience of your own transition, to feel it, to name it well, and to share that out loud, both certainly in our sessions, but you did that with your team, with Jay, the importance of putting out there what you’re going through as a leader, as a human being who’s going through something hard. So that’s the first phase.

The second is waiting. And if we do ending well, if we engage grief and loss well, if we do that in community, it opens up space, I believe and see again and again, to wonder about what could this space be inviting further? This is a space that’s about not waiting on our hands. It’s not passive. It’s a very active approach. It’s a very—it’s all about activism. Waiting in and of itself implies that you’re waiting for something. And so this space of waiting is a space to wonder about what this time could be for, what could it be forming in you, first and foremost, as the starting point, because all good discernment is an inside-out process. It’s transforming us from the inside. All lasting change is deep identity work. We got to let go of what the story in Egypt was all about, that identity piece, and embrace this new identity that the story’s inviting. And the waiting season is all about looking closely at what that is, looking for the clues, the breadcrumbs, that are showing you this is still what you have to work with. This is still a big part of who you are. These are the desires that are very much present still inside you and, in fact, accentuated even more because of the grief that you’re going through, because of the things that you let go of.

Now, I think the beautiful part of this space that when done well, when we move through grieving and loss well, we’re loosening our grips on the story and opening our hands up for what could be. And that’s why grief and desire and possibility are always linked. As we let go of a land of slavery, we’re moving towards a land flowing with milk and honey. That’s by design. That’s what liminal spaces encourage again and again, if we want it to, if we want to actually see it. And there’s always a choice.

Al: I trust you’re enjoying our podcast today. We’ll be right back after an important word for leaders.

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Al: And now, back to today’s special guest.

Yeah. And I appreciate that, Jon. I know after I passed the baton and our board appointed Jay as the CEO, I went on a two-week pilgrimage on the Camino de Santiago, from Portugal to Santiago, Spain, and just for two weeks, walking with open hands, opening up my hands, as you were saying, kind of loosening my grip on, “Okay, I just let go of that. Now, okay, so what’s next?” Yeah. And this is really helpful, ending and waiting.

So, well, share with us, what are the next steps? What’s next after that?

Jon: Yeah. So we teach the third phase being about rising, which is all about experimenting with opportunities. It’s really engaging that God-given curiosity that I think we all have. I think that first commandment, be fruitful and multiply, I think that’s a lot about our creativity, our imagination for what could be. So when we’re walking with our clients, when I’m walking with clients, through spaces of the wilderness, we’re wondering about the future. But then, as those different pathways emerge, how can we test some of those out? How can we create some experiments that bring new data and new learning? It’s no different than laying a few fleeces out to see which ones are wet and follow that, listen to that a little bit more closely. What is that revealing about the next set of breadcrumbs or a potential leap that’s coming your way?

So we encourage experimentation. And this is one part of the process that can be a lot of fun, and for me, especially as a guy, to watch others experiment with their life before they take that leap. But it also requires patience, because in our culture we want quick answers. We want to see things unfold rapidly and see a pathway that’s clear. And it’s hard, even in the experimental phase, in the rising phase, to wait for an experiment to play out, to let it teach and show you something, right? That, I think, is part of this space.

And then that leads to investing, eventually, when at some point you’ve got to go all in. You’ve got to commit to some choices or a choice. You’ve got to say, “You know what? June 30, I’m done. I’m burning the boats. Succession plan, fully executed. I’m entering this new part of the story,” which you know well. And that’s an important part of really bringing forward the courage it takes to take those leaps and moving into a story that you’ve spent time dreaming about, putting language to, trying some things out through the experimenting, that third phase, in rising. And now you’re committing to the actual pathway that you want to be on, that you feel invited into, that requires courage, vulnerability, some sense of hope and desire for a future.

And then our last phase, which is, again, one that I think many clients move past way too quickly, is reveling, which is celebrating. When Israel crossed over the Jordan River, first order of business was to hold a moment of celebration. We’ve made it. Let’s eat some of the food. Let’s gather around and remember. Let’s have a ritual of sorts that allows us to remember what we’ve been through. I mean, think about, like, what we’ve all been through in the last three years. How often, we just, like, what’s the next thing? What’s the next thing? I think this is a great time to keep pausing and looking back and remembering what we’ve been through. We’ve made it. On so many levels, we’ve made it. We’re still here. We’re still here. Many of us have made huge choices in our leadership, in our organizations, how we run and operate, things that we can raise a glass and celebrate, right? We need to celebrate these things. We need to remember.

And that will, also, move our hearts towards gratitude; worship; giving thanks to God for what He’s done, what He’s formed in us and invited us into; and a future out ahead, a story out ahead that He’s helping create with us. We can do a lot more of that, I think, as we move through these spaces of transition.

So those are the five phases that we walk our clients through. And as with all transition, as soon as you finish one and you finish the arrival, there’s another one unfolding, just like with Israel. We’re here in the Promised Land. Oh, no, there’s Jericho. Like, I’m here in retirement. Okay, now I’m starting this whole new thing over. And what does it mean to be here in this space and walk through this liminal space? So one endless transition.

Al: Yeah, I can—boy, I can feel that as currently I’ve kind of made the commitment to June 30, yeah. I invested, I committed, I’ve celebrated, now I’m kind of going back to level three, rising, and I’m experimenting and testing what are the next steps. And so the next thing I’m going to be doing is committing, okay, so what am I going to go all in as I look at the next ten years of my life, for example? Yeah. So that’s not, as you said at the beginning, and I appreciate that warning, there aren’t clear—this isn’t a linear process. It’s a more of a circular process that you’re going through, and I can feel that even in my own journey.

Jon: Or even nonlinear—

Al: Yeah.

Jon: —like wandering through a desert.

Al: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. Exactly.

So what would you say to a leader, Jon, who is listening and unsure about future transitions? They may sense that they’re not in the right job—there are those people—and they know it, and yet they need an income. They are afraid to change, you know, whatever it might be. But maybe they’re not really ready to make those next steps because of that. They’re fearful. Those are some of the feelings that I had. The fear is keeping them from moving forward. So how do you motivate someone to find the courage to step into the liminal space, to step into transition, even when it’s more comfortable to kind of keep the status quo? And we’re kind of assuming that somebody has the actually power to do that, that nobody else is creating it. What would you say?

Jon: Well, that’s a good point that you just mentioned there. They have the power, the choice to do it. They have the freedom to choose not to go through the wilderness, to sidestep it, to go around. And thankfully, God’s very patient. He will allow that to happen and let you choose out of that gift He gave you: the freedom of choice. But what I encourage and invite people I’m working with who feel a sense of, I will use the word, resistance to doing that work is to consider what’s the risk if you don’t? What if you maintain the status quo? I mean, it’s really a question worth asking. Like, if you choose to avoid what the invitation is inviting, like, what you’re being invited to do in this season, that you’re being honest in conversation with me about, what do you put at risk if you don’t? What if you don’t embrace the liminal space that is present? And to just tease that out through narrative. Where might that go?

And I’m not talking about, like, well, let’s just look for doom and gloom and disaster on the horizon, the flames burning. That’s not what I’m speaking to. I’m more about raising a level of consciousness to who they are as a story writer. They are not just sitting there waiting. They are looking out into a future that’s asking them to make choices about their life, as story writers that have been given this beautiful freedom to write a story for their life that’s meaningful, and steward what they’ve been given. That’s good work. And if you don’t, what do you put at risk?

And I would argue that’s the greater risk. That’s the greater risk. And so it’s gently, but with a space of curious wonder with them, that’s your act, what might happen if you don’t? Like, thinking about that, which you did a few moments ago with BCWI, like, what if you didn’t do the work that you did, right? What does that do to Jay and his leadership? I mean, we could probably make an argument that he might not even be here if you hadn’t done this work. He might have said, like, “Clearly, he doesn’t want to turn over the reins. I got to get out of here. How would that ripple through the rest of the organization? Like, Al’s not letting go? Like, what are we going to do?” Like, it would compromise the future, putting at risk the beautiful thing that’s been created through your organization and through the desires that God placed in your heart to build this thing.

So I think that’s the conversation that would need to be had. Teasing that out so that a person can say, “Well, I don’t want that story. I really don’t want that story. I want a story that’s about coming alive and aligning who I am with what God really wants for not just my life, but this thing that I’ve been stewarding all along.” That’s a good story. That’s a good—that’s the treasure in a field, right? That’s the treasure I’m unearthing, and out of joy, buying that field and doing something with. That’s what the Kingdom of God is all about. Not burying it, right?

Al: Yeah, it’s interesting. So, Jon, just reflecting as we’re talking about this, the future is asking us to make choices, one of the things you just said. And gosh, I remember, I was probably 29. I was in a job. I realized that job wasn’t going to fit me in a period of time, yet I was comfortable. Gosh, I had a BMW for a company car. I thought, wow. But I just knew that it wasn’t going to be, intuitively, I sensed. And yet the resistance to change was there. And I’m just so glad I actually did make a move. That’s when Kathy and I made a big move to Dallas from Pennsylvania. And it was the best thing for us in our life. But, yeah, people—I’m sure you run into people that kind of just have that sense, “It’s time to change. But do I really want to?” because it was going to take energy.

Jon: And not just energy, but it’s harder, I think, the older you get because the stakes feel a little bit higher. I’ve got a mortgage. I’ve got kids. I’ve got this nest egg that I’ve accumulated. I’ve got this thing that’s gotten to this point in its development, this business, or whatever it might be. And I’ve got a lot of “success,” and it’s real, right? It’s not fake. You’ve built this. And to say, now I’m going to put some of that at risk potentially by making a move or shifting directions and following out of faith, this tug, this leading, that’s harder to do in both my personal experience and in the observation of walking alongside others. It’s just harder work to do. And more often than not, I have encountered those that are willing to look at the truth, but it’s much harder to follow those promptings to leave behind the land that you’ve known and follow a voice into the wilderness. And as much as I would want that for them, that ultimately is their choice: to follow or not.

Al: Okay, listeners. Well, are you feeling that maybe it’s time to transition?

But now, Jon, let’s continue on because, again, talking about voluntary types of transitions. Let’s say sometimes the needed transition isn’t really for us, but it’s the employee under our leadership that we’re involved in. What should I do as a leader if I have someone on my team who needs to be encouraged to take a step, a risk into something new? And whether it’s maybe even internally an organization or outside an organization, maybe they’ve done good at their job, but as we know and as we listen, we can see that a different path would be better for them to use their skills and their abilities. How would you help launch someone into a transition in a positive way like that?

Jon: Well, I think for the leader to first see it as a transition is an important part of the process, that this isn’t about a decision to get them off the team or into some other role. This is about your work as a leader to steward a transition towards the flourishing of this individual and ultimately the flourishing of the organization that you’re charged to lead. It happens in these small moments just as much as these bigger moments of crisis that you’re stewarding. So to view it through that lens of transition, that you’re walking with this person through, potentially, a transition that could change the course of their career in a very positive way. It may be uncomfortable, but it could have that potential. And you see something in them that does hold potential that they’re not following or that they’re playing beneath them or whatever it might be, or seeing a story that could become more.

And so I always encourage leaders to be explicit, to say that out loud, to say, “Stephanie, I’ve been watching the work that you’ve done over the course of the last three years. And I’m going to be rather blunt. Like, I think I’m only seeing 30% of what you’re capable of and that you’re leaving 70% off the table. And that’s not an accusation. That’s a statement of, I believe you’re capable of so much more with the gifts that you’ve been given and how that could bless your career path. And I’m excited for you, and I want to explore that with you in an ongoing conversation.”

So I think, first, be explicit about that. And then, if you’re going to bring it up, if you’re going to raise awareness to that other 70% or whatever the percentage might be, and you’re going to start the conversation, be willing to get curious along the way as they walk through that space. Don’t just give them an ultimatum. I mean, I hope it doesn’t sound like that at all. Let it be a process that unfolds, a journey that unfolds, that from time to time, as you schedule these conversations, to get curious about how they’re taking that conversation seriously for themselves, and making movement towards exploring that and taking some risky, appropriately risky, steps with that.

So get curious. Keep bringing it up. Don’t let the conversation grow cold. That’s part of what it means to manage this person, repeated experiences of curiosity. And then if there’s an opportunity, create opportunities for this person to get a little uncomfortable, to step into places of their own growth and development.

I had a number of things throughout my career these last 15 years that my mentor would encourage me to say yes to because he knew the value of the discomfort. He knew the value that if I just said yes and trusted him, that if I got into it, it would be a refining fire. It would really, in a beautiful way, press me to those edges that I needed to be pressed into and invited into. And I’m so grateful for that kind of guidance in my story, and I think we need to be that with those that we’re leading.

The other thing I would do is give it a timeline. Again, not an ultimatum that I’m going to fire you in 12 months. But I hope for you employee, Stephanie, whoever it is, that in 12 months you’re able to articulate more what you want for your career path, and I’m able to bring the full weight of my position to help that along. I want that for you. So those are a few things that come to mind when I think about how to nudge a person forward into their own liminal space that they’re ultimately choosing for themselves, but it’s guided by the belief that they’re capable of it and your desire for them, and, hopefully some kindness on your behalf, on behalf of their future.

Al: That’s the way all leadership development, they’re saying, put people into situations to help them grow. And you don’t learn from going to workshops. I mean, that’s part of anybody’s development, but it’s on-the-job training where they really have new opportunities, new experiences, ways to grow, and maybe a person isn’t the first one to think that’s what they want to do.

Jon, I’ve really enjoyed working with you, and you bring a Christian perspective, a deep Christian perspective to all of this. But I also know that you work with those that don’t have the experience with the faith that others do. What’s some of the difference between those that you guide through transitions that maybe aren’t followers of Jesus versus those that are? What do you see as some of the differences?

Jon: Yeah. That’s such a good question. There’s probably—I mean, we could probably spend hours talking about this, but so I was thinking about this question. What comes to mind is this phrase that I often use with any client, regardless of faith background. It’s “transition thieves.” And whether they have faith or not, what I’m referencing is the passage John 10:10, “The thief comes to kill, steal, and destroy. And I have come that you may know life and have it to the full.” I believe these spaces of liminality are ripe with surfacing an opportunity for a person to come fully alive. But also, it’s going to unearth and expose thieves in our stories that would love to see us squander the potential of a transition, to see the potential growth not happen, and to see us not live into our God-given gifts and abilities and desires that have been placed inside us.

So for Christian leaders in particular, one of the transition thieves that I’ve seen over the years is there’s some aspect of their theology that keeps them from seeing a story of freedom and delight and a God who loves them. And often that has to do, or it sounds like, feel like, “God’s disappointed in me. God’s trying to teach me a lesson, and that’s why this moment is so hard for my life. He clearly has a plan, and I’m not smart. I just don’t have it. There’s something in me that’s an inadequacy, and I just have to figure it out. And eventually God’s going to show it to me by a lot of hard work and suffering. And just give me a sign, God. Tell me which direct—” So there’s all kinds of theologies, ways of understanding who God is in these narratives, these transitional narratives, that make it more difficult, I think, for some Christians to move through spaces of transition.

Moses is actually a really good example of a leader who had a hard time moving through transition. There was a moment where he was just clearly carrying his life as a burden, his role and responsibility as a burden, right? “This is too much.” Numbers 11, if you want to unpack that chapter, it’s beautiful. You see Moses just, like, at his wit’s end. “I can’t do this anymore. Like, take this responsibility from me. These people, I didn’t birth them. If you don’t fix this, God, take my life.” And I’ve encountered so many Christian leaders who are just at their wit’s end because they’ve been carrying their story like a burden. And some of that goes to their theology that they see God is not someone who wants them to have a good story and filled with joy and delight, but someone who’s trying to teach them a lesson.

Al: Well, isn’t that where the first transitional psychologist is mentioned in the Bible, that his father-in-law, Jethro—

Jon: Yeah.

Al: —helped him through that transition?

Jon: The first liminal guide.

Al: The first liminal guide, there we go. His father-in-law.

Jon: That’s great. I hadn’t thought of that. That’s wonderful.

Al: Anyway, a little—I think of that as the first cultural consultant.

Jon: Oh, that’s good. I hadn’t thought about that. That’s good.

Al: But, yeah.

Jon: So theology is a big one.

Al: Great story. Yeah.

Jon: The other one, I think, is maybe this isn’t a Christian thing, but I just encounter it a lot with Christian leaders, that they struggle to be openly human and vulnerable, vulnerable with their weaknesses, even vulnerable with their strengths. I have worked with some amazing leaders, and when you call that out and just shine a spotlight on their glory, they want to deflect it and say, “It’s not me; it’s God.” And I just, like, “Okay, I get what you’re getting at there. But who created you? Yes, God. But you have a distinct makeup that brings His glory to the forefront. Can you revel in that? Can you enjoy it? Can you let yourself be grateful for it? Even proud of the work that you’ve done and how you’ve been created?” That’s a beautiful thing, and I think that’s about ownership of how you’ve been created. And those that own who they are and accept how they’ve been created bring more light to the world, more light, more salt. And we need that, especially in this world, right? Give God the glory. Be grateful. Be humble. But own your stuff. Own who you are. Don’t deflect it away. And I just see that often.

And part of that, as I’m getting to the other side of it, are weaknesses, Christian leaders being honest and vulnerable. You know how relieving it is for Christian leader—I’ve seen this countless times when I encourage them and coach them into these team meetings, where they literally don’t know what to do. Like, there’s been a lot of that during last three years. I just say, “What if you lead with that? What if you lead with, ‘I don’t know what to do here, but I’m trusting that together we’ll figure out a response. And I just, I got to say, this doesn’t feel good to me to not have the answers. It’s scary. I feel anxious about where we’re at, but trust in who I am that I’m here with you and that I’m not going to leave. Like, I’m here.’” The relief that they feel when they get to just be honest about their own humanity is truly beautiful. It’s truly freeing. It’s like, “Oh, I get to be a human being first, then a pastor, then a CEO.” I think people in this day and age love that because we are in a time in human history where change is coming at an astronomical rate, and if we don’t learn to be human first, I don’t think people are going to follow the leader that’s not being vulnerable. They’ll see right through that and look for some exit as soon as they can because authenticity, honesty, that’s reality based.

Al: And my experience, Jon, is that when a leader is willing to do that, then people just come together—

Jon: Yeah.

Al: —and support and work together to solve the problems. And it’s no negative reflection on the leader. It’s a positive reflection, as you say, because people are looking for authenticity. They know that’s real.

Jon: Right.

Al: And, you know, if the leader has built any level of trust—

Jon: Yeah.

Al: —that they’ll be able to move forward together with the team because we’re smarter than any of us individually, yeah.

Jon: And we can’t miss the fact that when we do that with those we lead, when we are vulnerable about where we’re at, it gives others permission to be where they’re at—

Al: Yeah.

Jon: —which is so helpful. It helps them even be more on board that ship and trust you as their captain because they can bring more of who they are to the story.

Al: Yeah. There is so much—I see it kind of over and over again, where a leader’s unwilling to express any vulnerability because they feel like somewhere in their head is this sense that “If I don’t know all the answers, then people won’t follow me.”

Jon: That’s right. That’s right. Yeah.

Al: And I haven’t seen that to be true. In fact, the opposite is true. Yeah.

Jon: Yeah.

Al: Well, Jon, as we work together, one of the things that I found really helpful is that over the course of several months, you encouraged me to do some reflective writing. And I’ve journaled through many sections of my life, taking time to write. Especially some of the specific questions that you asked me to help me get in touch with, how I was moving through this transition process, was helpful. And that allowed me to slow down and notice areas of growth and areas where I still needed to go deeper and learn from it. So suggest to our listeners a couple of journaling questions—

Jon: Yeah.

Al: —that might be helpful for them to ponder as they start maybe a transition process.

Jon: Yeah. Well, I think even just the fact that, like, what are the questions that could help lead reflection, just that idea of there’s just something profoundly beautiful about a great question that invites a person into their own understanding, their own experience of a liminal space. So just even right there, there’s initially all those surface questions that get asked in the flurry of fear and anxiety, like, how am I going to make this work, and how am I going to make ends meet, and how am I going to fix this problem? which a lot of that has to do with behaviors and choices and action. But these questions that have to do with identity and what this space is inviting.

I kind of go back to that first phase of the approach, that is the ending or the approaching ending, the change, the disruption, and begin to consider these questions that are about what’s in the process or has currently changed? What’s different now in your life, in your work, in your role, in the organization? What’s in the process of going through rupture, and what are you being invited to let go of? I’m not asking you to let go of it yet, but what are you being invited to let go of? How does that feel? How does all of that feel? Those two questions, those two areas alone, just to name it and feel it, are crucial because what we’re doing is we’re getting in touch with our mind and our body, where emotions reside. If you can’t do that, you’re not making a whole lot of great choices rooted in reality. Your body is here and now, showing you the way. Those little clues in those feelings, in those sensations, in those thoughts that are attached to that, those are all sensemaking mechanisms to help you see your life and the invitation more clearly. So I’d start with those questions.

And then, I would explore, why was it meaningful? Or why is it meaningful, the thing that’s changing or you’re being invited to let go of? How did it come to have that meaning? And as you sit with the thought of letting it go, as you sit with that, what aches? And if you can begin to name some of that, you are moving into that space of grief, but you’re also moving into that space of desire. What aches is really about desire. I feel like I’m at a loss, like I have no purpose. That’s an ache for purpose. That’s an ache that says this story held a lot of it, and there’s a space inside you that still wants more of it because you’re here. So what aches now, and how does that ache, then, reveal what you desire for the future?

So those questions are questions that we’ll often explore in that first phase where a lot of change is happening, where the ground’s still shaking, or it has shaken, and you’re looking around at a lot of debris and you can pick up some of those pieces. And those questions, I think, invite through personal reflection, but also sharing some of that with a close friend, a colleague, someone who safe, is a really important thing that I would encourage.

And I have a couple of other tools, too, that I would encourage.

Al: Yeah.

Jon: There’s one on our website. It’s called The Liminal Strengths Assessment. We look at seven different dimensions, things like community, self-care, self-honesty. And what we do is we examine past transitions through that assessment. What we’re looking for is what your approach to past transitions and how is your approach to help keep you open and curious, and is there ways that would be relevant as we learn about your past? How would it help you in this current or soon-to-be-here transition that you’re moving through? So building an approach moving forward that keeps you open and curious by studying the past. So that’s The Liminal Strengths Assessment that’s free on our website.

And another tool that I learned and have been using myself over the last, oh, I don’t know, two, three years that I just started during the pandemic is the Monk Manual, monkmanual.com. Not getting paid to push that. But it has been a beautiful product for a reflective tool. Oh, you got yours right there. Yes, I love it. It’s been so helpful to integrate who I am in my being, with what I am in my doing. And I think a lot of us, that’s what we’re looking for, is how can we find a story where those two are aligned, the being and the doing? And this tool, through practice, a ritual of doing that daily, encourages that along. So fun to use that.

Al: Okay.

Jon: It’s great.

Al: I’ve forgotten how I got connected with it. Okay, now I remember. Yeah.

Jon: That’s right.

Al: Yeah. Still using it.

Jon: Wonderful.

Al: Absolutely right.

Jon, these are really helpful insights. And for some of our listeners, they might not be in that space right now, but certainly, some sort of transition is ahead for each of us. We’re really all in a transitionary role.

Jon: Yeah.

Al: It’s just a matter of how long before we come to that transition. So when I’ve run into people who have had facing transitions and have been surprised by transitions, I’ve often recommended William Bridges’s book Transitions—

Jon: Yeah.

Al: —and I’ve given that book out to many people. I’ve recommended it to others.

Jon: Yeah.

Al: What are some of the books that you might recommend for people who are in a life transition or preparing for one?

Jon: Yeah, well, right out of the gates, with all of our clients moving forward since it surfaced is the book Life Is in the Transitions, and that’s by Bruce Feiler. Came out during the pandemic, which from a timing perspective, you couldn’t have asked for a better time, when the entire globe is going through a massive transition. But it’s an exceptional book. Lots of great insights and myths that are debunked about what it means to be in transition. Lots of great tools, ways of considering how to engage that space. So I’d encourage that one. It’s required reading for our clients.

Let Your Life Speak, another good one. Parker Palmer. An oldie but a goodie, another one that many of my clients read. And then a newer one that I’m really starting to love a lot more and just getting opened up more by is called The Wild Edge of Sorrow: Rituals of Renewal and the Sacred Work of Grief. We don’t talk about grief enough. And in the last three years, how many millions of people have died and how many millions of lives that have been touched and how many millions of things that have crumbled and fallen apart, everything from routines and approaches and systems and businesses and so many things that have been broken or lost. And so I think there’s tremendous value in learning about sorrow and grief, and it’s critical to navigating spaces of transition. So that’s a good one.

Art and Faith, A Theology of Making by Makoto Fujimura, I believe is how you pronounce his name. Another great one. He is an artist, and in the book references a Japanese art called Kintsugi, which is an act of mending pieces of broken pottery with gold. If you Google that or look on YouTube, you’ll see some great videos of him talking about that. And I think there’s a beautiful invitation, in his words, about what it means to be a maker and a mender here on Earth.

And then I think another one that, well, oldies but goodies that I come back to again is just pretty much anything by Brene Brown. I love her stuff, Rising Strong, Braving the Wilderness. All of her stuff I really feel opens up more understanding about what it means to be uniquely ourselves, but also, at the same time, connected to each other in a larger story that’s unfolding.

So those are the ones—

Al: Yeah, great job. Well—

Jon: —that come to mind.

Al: Fantastic.

Jon: Yeah.

Al: And Jon, tell us a little bit—we’ve learned so much from the conversation—tell us a little bit about Liminal Space and how people can get involved.

Jon: Yeah. So Liminal Space is an organization that seeks to help people move through the overwhelm and the confusion that comes with change. And by change, I mean all life’s changes, personal or professional. We have a team of guides that walk people through, using our approach that walk people through that space of disruption and into that space of making sense and understand what it means for their life and how to move forward with a sense of a plan, some next steps that move into the story that they want for their future, and that story that we hope is connected to a larger narrative, that it’s not just about them. So our guides do that work. We call them liminal guides. You could also call them life-transition coaches. That is our work. But I think liminal guides sounds a lot cooler, so we use that phrase.

And then, we also have a certificate training program that I’m the lead trainer for and facilitate, where we’re just finding more and more that over the years people have said like, “I love what you guys are doing. Can you teach us how to do it? Like, what’s your approach?” And that really forced me to think about, “Well, what is my approach, and how would I teach that?” And so that birthed the certificate program that we’ve now been doing for four years, and I’m just having a blast doing that. So with love, if you’re looking to further equip yourself with some great tools and understanding of an approach to guide people from disruption to clarity and a path forward that’s inviting courage, that’s what we engage and that’s what we teach in that program.

Al: Great. Well, and one last, how would you encourage somebody to seek help if they’re in this space? What would be a benefit?

Jon: Yeah, I would tell you that if you’re in a space of change and disruption, professional or personal, this is not something that you’re supposed to navigate. That’s an old story that I don’t believe ultimately works and gets at the best stuff that is about your life coming alive fully. And so my encouragement to you would be look for a guide. Look for someone that’s not going to give you the answers, but for someone who’s going to help you ask the questions that your life is asking, and that should probably not go away, and could actually make or unmake your life, to borrow from David Whyte’s poem “Sometimes.” That’s what I would encourage. I have wound up in some cul de sacs by my own making, and how much better some of those narratives would have gone had I just said to a close friend or a loved one, “Here’s where I’m at. Here’s where I’m lost. Here’s where I’m confused. Here’s why I’m overwhelmed. Can you help me see what I’m missing? Hold up some mirrors.” We’ve been created that way to be in relationship. And there’s no better time to do that than when you’re going through a liminal space to be in relationship. So that’s my encouragement to you if you’re in a space of transition.

Al: Yeah, absolutely.

Well, Jon, thanks so much for your time today. I love your five phases: ending, waiting, rising, investing, and reveling. That doesn’t spell anything, though, Jon, those five pieces.

Jon: I’ll work on that.

Al: FLOURISHing is already taken, Jon.

But, no, in all seriousness, it’s just been a great conversation. I love how you really encourage leaders to steward the transitions, to make sure that, well, to just have them be positive experiences that help them get through them and to invite other people into that space to help them in that process. So this has been a great conversation.

Thanks for all of your contributions. Most of all, I appreciate your commitment to guiding people on their life journey as they steward their life and God-given gifts and abilities. And thank you for taking the time out of your day and speaking into the lives of so many listeners. And thank you for the time you spent with me, to help me through a liminal space. So—

Jon: Oh, it’s my joy. Thank you.

Al: And let me suggest to our listeners that you can find Jon on his website, inaliminalspace.org. That’s inaliminalspace.org. So thanks, Jon.

Jon: You bet. Thank you, Al.

Outro: Thank you for joining us on the Flourishing Culture Podcast and for investing this time in your workplace culture. If there’s a specific insight, story, or action step you’ve enjoyed, please share it with others so they can benefit, too. Please share this podcast with friends on social media, and show your support by rating, reviewing, and subscribing wherever you listen.

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