Transcript: Thank God It’s Monday: Building a Ministry Culture Employees Love // Doug Mazza, Joni and Friends

Flourishing Culture Leadership Podcast

“Thank God It’s Monday: Building a Ministry Culture Employees Love“

June 23, 2025

Doug Mazza

Intro: What happens when a seasoned auto executive brings Jesus-centered leadership into a global ministry and builds a workplace culture so strong, even the onboarding starts in the parking lot? Well, join me as I talk with Doug Mazza, one of my first guests in 2009 and now my last one, as I conclude my tenure as the host of the Flourishing Culture Leadership Podcast next week.

Welcome: Welcome to the Flourishing Culture Leadership Podcast, your home for open, honest, and insightful conversations to help develop your leadership, your team, and build a flourishing workplace culture.

Al Lopus: Hi, I’m Al Lopus, the co-founder of the Best Christian Workplaces and author of Road to Flourishing, the go-to research-based, Christ-centered guide to build a flourishing workplace culture. My passion is to equip Christian leaders like you to create engaged, flourishing workplaces, where people thrive and organizations make a significant Kingdom impact.

And as I bring this season of the podcast to a close, I want to share a personal milestone. It's been nearly three years since I handed the leadership of Best Christian Workplaces to Jay Bransford, and I continue to be inspired by how he and our leadership team and the entire team have expanded and deepened the impact of our mission.

In that same spirit of stewardship and new beginnings, this will be the final guest episode I host. I'll wrap up this chapter by stepping into the guest seat myself in our next episode, reflecting on the journey, the stories, and what's ahead. And then, with full confidence and a grateful heart, I'll be handing the mic to the next generation of leaders at BCW.

And for now, let me just say this: these 449 episodes have been one of the great joys and honors of my life. Thank you for listening, for sharing, and for being part of this vision that Christian-led workplaces set the standard as the best, most effective places to work in the world. Keep leading, keep flourishing, and may God continue to guide your work.

I'm delighted to welcome Doug Mazza to the podcast today. Doug's the president emeritus of Joni and Friends.

Throughout our conversation, you'll hear Doug share about a proven culture framework: learn the four pillars that has shaped a thriving ministry. Secondly, practical engagement tips: get some real-world ideas for onboarding, measuring engagement, and creating a workplace where staff feel seen, valued, and spiritually connected. Third, leadership encouragement: Doug shares honest insights on faith-filled leadership, legacy, and staying purposeful, even in life's hardest challenges.

I think you're going to love this interview with Doug Mazza. But before we dive in, this podcast is proudly sponsored by the Best Christian Workplaces’ Employee Engagement Survey, the most-trusted engagement tool tailored for faith-based organizations. Thousands of leaders rely on it, building thriving, Christ-centered cultures. What sets us apart? Well, we're the only biblically grounded, research-based survey built specifically for Christian-led teams, offering practical insights through a Kingdom lens. As today's guest, Doug Mazza, reminds us, measuring workplace health isn't a box to check; it's a foundation for planning and a predictor of ministry outcomes. That's exactly what our Survey helps you do. Don't wait. Now is the perfect time to gather feedback and begin transforming your workplace. Visit workplaces.org to learn more to start your journey today.

And let me tell you a little bit more about Doug Mazza. Doug’s the president emeritus of Joni and Friends, where he served for 20 years as the president and COO, implementing the international ministry of Joni Eareckson Tada. During his tenure, the ministry grew from an annual budget of 3 million to 60 million dollars. He retired in 2021, and prior to Christian-ministry leadership, Doug was the U.S. CEO of Hyundai Motor Company. Doug Mazza is a board member of the Best Christian Workplaces, and Doug brings overflowing knowledge and experience in running successful Christian ministries to BCW's board. Doug is a culture-first leader.

So, here’s my conversation with Doug Mazza.

Doug, it’s great to have you back on the podcast. I always learn so much from you and our conversations. And in fact, you were one of my first guests when I started the podcast back in 2009, and then, I started the weekly podcast in 2015. You've been on several times. In fact, the podcast has had over 450 episodes, with over 300,000 downloads. So, thanks for being on the journey with me, and I'm especially looking forward to our conversation today.

Doug Mazza: Al, well, that’s some amazing information I wasn't aware of. And I want to tell you that over the years, what I have received from Best Christian Workplace and from you in particular has added greatly to the success of Joni and Friends and whatever it is that God has given me to do. So, I want thank you for that.

Al: Well, thanks, Doug. You're very gracious.

And let's just start off, because you were with Joni and Friends 20 years, and you led with such excellence, and we're going to talk about some of that. And you developed the four pillars that form the background of the ministry strategy, four pillars that really guided the ministry of Joni and Friends in terms of the culture and the execution. So, talk a little bit about the four pillers, and tell us why they were so important to you in creating a healthy, even flourishing workplace culture.

Doug: Well, I came out of corporate life into ministry, and there was quite a transition that went on in that time. Even though I brought Jesus to work in the secular world as well, it wasn't the same as being the president of an international disability ministry. And I realized that “leading like Doug” was not going to be adequate. Even leading like Joni Eareckson Tada, as wonderful as that is, is not adequate. Jesus is the One that we are following, He was the One in charge of the ministry, and so we began seeking a way to lead like Jesus and recognizing Him as the One that was going to carry us forward as our guide.

And so, we developed four pillars that were universal, that can be used regardless of who the president is, and that can overlap into any successful culture. And they were as follows: one was lead like Jesus. Let's be reminded of that. We are here to find the management techniques of Jesus Christ. And if you study His management techniques, it turns out the perfect man was also the perfect leader. There were times when He gave very specific instructions, and He said, “This is what I want you to take with you. This is where I want you to go.” And there were other times when He used a parable and said, “Go think about it.” And I think the result was that He's the only person who led an organization for three years on the earth that has lasted for over 2,000 years. And even with my secular friends who are not Christians, I tell them, “Aren't you curious about how He did it? You really ought to read the Bible and see how Jesus was a leader and look at it from that perspective.” So, lead like Jesus was the number one pillar.

And just to be sure, these pillars have got to be biblical. And so we sought authority in the Bible for each of the pillars. And for those who are following along, Matthew 20:28 was the biblical mandate for lead like Jesus. And Matthew 20:28 says this, “Just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life as a ransom for many.” So, that's a high standard, and that was what we used as our lead like Jesus pillar in order to follow Him. So everything flows from that.

And the second pillar is integration. And by integration, we're not talking about teamwork. Integration has been so overused, but it's overused because it's a good thing. But it's beyond teamwork. Integration, in our perspective, is a fully integrated in communication opportunity, where everyone in the organization is aware of everything that is going on. If you're only aware, if you're good at what's on your desk and you really don't understand how the entire organization works, you will never be creative or reach your potential. And so we believe in full integration of information. The biblical mandate for that is Romans 15:5-7, and I love this one. It's, “May the God who gives endurance and encouragement…”—Anybody need endurance and encouragement in what they do? I think so—"May the God who gives endurance and encouragement give you the same attitude of mind toward each other that Christ Jesus had…”—Get this—"so that with one mind and one voice you glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. Accept one another, then, just as Christ accepted you in order to bring praise to God.” Now, that's a very high standard, but that's what we consider integration, where we are able to speak as a ministry with one voice and one objective in mind, that is to serve Christ and the purpose that He has given us in ministry.

And that led to the third pillar, which is excellence in your area of expertise. One of the things that I've always enjoyed about this pillar is that everywhere I worked in the secular world, this is how you kept your job, excellence in your area of expertise. And Joni and Friends, it's the third pillar, because if you are not able to participate in a “lead like Jesus” culture, and you're not willing to integrate, your expertise is not going to be enough to keep you there. And unfortunately, in many settings, that expertise is what keeps people in an environment that takes away from the culture. So yes, we're willing to invest in you, in your excellence and area of expertise, but it's not enough. It's simply not enough in order to build the culture that is going to bring us to excellence.

And then, the fourth pillar is best Christian workplace: be a best Christian workplace. And the biblical mandate for that is right out of the Bible, and Proverbs 27:23 says, “Know the condition of your flocks.” If you're a leader, know the condition of your flocks. And Best Christian Workplace and the Survey that we've been using for—is it 20 years now, Al?

Al: It’s probably 20 years, yeah.

Doug: I think it's 20 years—has been a major leadership tool in actually knowing the condition of the flock. And so I encourage everyone to not guess, who is in a leadership experience.

So those are the four pillars: lead like Jesus, be highly integrated, have excellence in your area of expertise, and best Christian workplace. If you think about those four, which one of those would you not want to do? Which one of these would change? I don't think that there is one that has, and it has endured well beyond my tenure at Joni and Friends.

Al: Yeah. And I remember you've talked about integration, for example, and how people might think, “Well, you're communicating a lot to be sure people are integrated and that because of that, in fact, people are able to work more effectively.” Is that your position on the integration?

Doug: Yeah. Integration is counterintuitive but not counterculture. It's counterintuitive in that taking time to make sure that everyone is on board and understands the full operation, what other departments are doing and how it fits into what I do. “Oh, I see why I do that, because that lets them accomplish what they're doing. And I'm not just a cog in the wheel. I am incredibly important to this process because without it, the entire process does not work as well.” And taking that time to do that builds not only integration, but engagement. I think we'll probably be talking about engagement today, but engagement is absolutely key in a quality place to work.

Al: You mentioned earlier, you came out of the automobile industry, and you had key roles, presidents of large automobile organizations. And so you came with a strong emphasis on the importance of measurement, both decision making, and you brought that from the auto industry to Joni and Friends. In fact, I understand that you worked personally with J.D. Power as he was getting started in measuring customer satisfaction in the automobile industry. And, of course, we all know how J.D. Power and Associates has just become such a key indicator of excellence and customer satisfaction. So tell us a little bit about that.

Doug: Well, I was deeply honored to be able to know Dave Power as a colleague and friend. I met him very early in the formation of J.D. Power and Associates, and he became a mentor of mine all the way through to the time of his untimely death just a few years ago. He was a very good friend. But I learned an awful lot from him, and what Dave taught me was that the consistent pursuit of quality will create long-term success nearly 100% of the time. And quality products and services are absolutely necessary and produce a quality culture. And so he was really early in this quality culture, “quality means everything” idea. I say only slightly with tongue in cheek that quality is the answer and the question’s irrelevant. It's really…

Al: Whatever it is, it's quality, right?

Doug: Whatever it is, you do it with quality. And that requires a long-term commitment, and I think we've seen that in corporations as well, those that do long-term commitments. There's a Japanese company that in the strategic planning does a 100-year plan. Do they know what's going to happen in 100 years? No. But when you begin your creative culture of spending time, “What could possibly be in 100 years?” your 10-year plan is a killer.

Al: That’s a good way to…yeah.

Doug: Yeah. It really—when you finally back up to the next five years or ten years and you've been thinking that way, you have got a dynamic plan. So this long-term quality culture in everything we do—in the way we talk to one another and how we work together—is critically important to hitting the objectives.

Al: And when it comes to measurement, how did measuring employee engagement and workplace health become part of your annual rhythm at Joni and Friends? How did your leadership team process the results of your Employee Engagement Surveys on an annual basis?

Doug: Well, measuring engagement and workplace health was never an add-on at Joni and Friends. It was the beginning of our planning. It wasn't a box to check. Measuring workplace health and planning its improvement is a direct predictor of the ministry's ultimate outcomes. So what we would do, one of the techniques we would use is that when we got our Surveys from the employees as to what they really think, we would take our top 10 scores and celebrate them with everyone in the ministry. And then, we would take our bottom 10 scores, and we would say, “These are the things that we are going to concentrate on.”

I think our Survey had 65 questions. You really can't concentrate on 65 questions, but if you can concentrate on your bottom 10 and involve the employees in the solutions, which is what we did… The first year, we got management together and said, “Okay. How are we going to attack these bottom 10?” And frankly, it didn't work. But what we did afterwards was we engaged each department in formulating a plan. These are the bottom 10. These aren't management's bottom 10; this is ministry’s, this is the organization's bottom 10. You're involved. You've identified these. Help us identify solutions. And they became very involved in solving these bottom 10. And so it became their goal to improve these bottom 10, which drove the score up.

And so, there you are, back to integration. It's back to involving everyone in the solution and creating a better-quality organization that creates a better-quality product and service. Whether it is delivering wheelchairs and Bibles around the country or delivering automobiles, it doesn't make any difference. Again, quality and engagement and integration are the answers.

Al: Well, Doug, as you know, Inspirational Leadership’s one of the eight factors of the research-based FLOURISH Model, developed by Best Christian Workplaces. And while all the factors contribute to flourishing, Inspirational Leadership has the highest correlation to the engaged workforce. It has the highest weighting. And as I've started to dive deeper into what makes up inspirational leadership, the essential qualities are a combination of spiritual leadership, Christian community, and leadership competence. And let's start with the first one, as I've thought about this, and that's spiritual leadership. And employees want to see leaders who themselves have been transformed by the spirit of Christ. You transitioned from leadership from the auto industry, as we've talked about, and to Joni and Friends. And what are some of the specific practices that were helpful for you as you incorporated spiritual leadership into your leadership experience?

Doug: Well, my spiritual leadership began in the secular world. I brought my Christianity to work, and that created its own set of challenges in the secular world, but that's who I was. And God worked on me over a period of years to open doors to where I felt that my spiritual leadership could better be used in ministry on a full-time basis. That was a major change in our lives, my wife and I. And praise God, I have a wife who was completely on board with that and a great encourager. But our country needs more Christian leaders in business. I want to start there. I'm not asking all presidents to wind up in ministry. God seems to be making some wonderful pastors, ministry leaders. But can you imagine the change in or culture if all of the bankers, the heads of banks, were having a devotional every morning, you know, on a Zoom? I just can't help but think that that would help us as a country and as a people. So I think the spiritual foundation is key. You can't fake that. I mean, you have got to live and breathe your faith, and it must be transparent, and it must be evident, and it must be practiced, and it must be seen.

I just thought of a really short example of consistency as to who we are. You know, we can't be one person one day and another person another day. I had a very good executive assistant one time who was moving out of state, and I involved her in the replacement process. And so I would interview somebody that seemed good, and then I said, you know, “I'd like for you to meet them and interview them as well.” And after one, this lady came back into my office and said, “Gee, she asked me an interesting question.” And I said, “What was that?” She said, “What's he like when he's upset?” And she said, “I've never seen him upset.” And I never forgot that. That one thing of, if you come to work—and I've done this; perhaps a lot of you have—I've come to work and say, “How's the boss today?” You cannot build a culture without management consistency, a leadership that is consistent from day to day as people knowing who you were. David was like that. He was there among the troops. He was with the people. He was a man of the people and a man of God. And that's what leadership requires in the Christian community.

Al: So the items in our Survey, fruit of the spirit, compassion, humility, and servant leadership, I remember hearing the story there. The leadership team at Joni and Friends would serve breakfast to the employees, you know, which reflects on putting Christ first in leadership. So, I remember some of those stories.

Doug: I always felt like keeping it light was important. We work with people with disabilities all over the world. I come from a family strongly affected by disability. And while the work we do is serious, it doesn't have to be done in a serious light all the time. I think keeping it light and making it a pleasant place to work. I got tired of employees telling me, “Well, it's Friday, a TGIF,” you know. And I would counter them, with a smile on my face, and say, “Well, don't worry. You can come back on Monday. It'll only be two days. I think you can get through.” Finally, I decided we need a TGIM—

Al: That’s right.

Doug: —thank God it's Monday. And so the first Monday of every month, we catered breakfast in. It wasn't that big an expense, but I did find out it is not possible to order enough bacon. You can't order enough bacon for a group of people. So that got the cut back. But people look forward to that. Thank God it's Monday. It just reminds people, “I am working in ministry.” Just stop and think about that for a minute. “I have a job where I come and I serve my God, not my supervisor. I go home at night thinking what I have accomplished, I’ve accomplished for the Lord. That is a wonderful place to be and a wonderful mental place to be and spiritual place to be.” That's the environment we want to create because then, all things are possible, and that's where want to get as an organization.

Al: Well, you’re starting to talk about already where I was going to go with this next question, because another part of inspirational leadership is that it helps build employee engagement, and that is a sense of Christian community amongst the staff. And I know you've had some great practices related to onboarding staff and making new employees feel like they're part of a community, a Christian community. Describe how you onboard new employees and why you felt it was so important that you are creating a workplace culture at Joni and Friends that included Christian community.

Doug: Well, first, I truly believe that working in Christian ministry should be the best place to work in the world. Why would that not be? And that's what we should strive for. And I believe that onboarding is extremely important, and that's not uncommon among a leader. But we would take it to the extreme, and we had kind of a “what else?” policy. We got together and said, “How can we onboard better?” And then, after we had a good plan, we would say, “What else?” And then, we would squeeze out of that rag, “Well, here's a better idea. Isn't that one more idea?”

And so the way we would do onboarding, it began, actually, in the parking lot as people came to work. They had a special place to park in the morning, and when they came through the door, the highest-ranking person of their department met them, had to be there early. And as they came through the door, perhaps the vice president was there, or director, or at least their supervisor, but generally their supervisor's supervisor's supervisor was there if they were rank and file. And they were taken to their desk where there was a gift on their desk, a signed book by Joni and some nice things just to welcome there. They were introduced to everybody in the department and then taken on a tour of the building.

And when they would get to my office—and I always wanted to be one of the very first people to meet everyone who came to Joni and Friends—when they came by my office on the tour, I invited them in. And they stayed with me privately, and I would make them a cup of coffee. I wouldn't send somebody to go get a cup of coffee. I had a Keurig machine. And I would ask them how they liked their coffee and make it for them and deliver it to them.

And I have to tell you, one of the things that spun out of that, that I wasn't even realizing I was doing. I had a Keurig machine that was on a lower shelf, and as I got older, I had to kneel down to make the coffee. So somebody would come in my office, and here's the president on his knees, making you a cup of coffee. And I remember a young fellow, who was working in the mail room. He was there for orientation, and he was staring at me like I thought maybe something was wrong. And I said, “Is everything okay?” And he said, “I've never met the president of anything, no less had somebody make me a cup a coffee,” you know. And I realized—because at Joni and Friends, I'm Doug. I’m just Doug. I'm not Mr. President or anything else. And we're all on a first name basis. If I need to have a badge with my title on it, I'm, not in charge of anything anyway.

So, getting back to the point is your first day should be an experience you never forget. And unfortunately, for a lot of people and places, your first day is a place you never forget and not for good reasons. By the time you had your tour and met the president and Joni Eareckson Tada, and you met everybody in your department, you went home that day, you had a gift, you had a special place to park, it was like, “Wow, I really had a good day.” You know, you go home and tell your spouse. “How was your first day?” “It was incredible.” That was the goal, to make the first day incredible and to not try to teach somebody what the culture is but to actually have a culture that they were inoculated in from the moment they walked through the door. So it's not what a website says about an organization is what their culture is; it's how they deliver. And how they deliver, you will learn from the employees, not the public-relations department.

Al: The experience itself, yeah. Exactly.

Doug: The experience itself, yes.

Al: Well, that’s just a great story. I think about integrity and the behaviors that create authentic Christian cultures. And we have the question, Joni and Friends reflects Christ to the world. And after experiences like that, and you become a sense of and part of a Christian community, you really feel like you're a part of something special. No question.

Doug: I believe—and you can check me on this, but I believe my recollection is correct—for the last five years of doing the Survey while I was there, that was our number one score. I was so proud of that, because everything flows from that. Lead like Jesus. Are we leading like Jesus? If you're leading like Jesus, that becomes your number one score. And if it's not, stop. That needs to become your number-one score.

Al: Well, another part of inspirational leadership is leadership competence. And you've already, that's part of one of your four pillars, and that's excellence in your area of expertise. And this involves continued growth and excellence in management and stewardship of people and resources. And you built such a strong leadership team at Joni and Friends. And I remember zooming in and being part of your leadership-team meetings and, really, outstanding talent around that table. So what are some of the best practices that you've seen over the years in building leadership competence?

Doug: Well, I will start at the end and work my way back. We developed a culture where people wanted to come to work for us. That should be the goal as you're building your culture. Is this a place that our current employees want to work? And is it going to get a reputation where people are attracted to it? It was not hard for us to attract very good talent and just excellent talent, and that took time because you don't do that in year one or the first six months or even two years. You do that over a period of time, where you get a reputation that this is a great place to work, and that makes you a great place to work, and that great place to work that you've done makes you more productive over time.

So the way we did that was that we invested in people. If you are really good at the first two pillars, lead like Jesus and integration, we would go out of our way to invest any way we possibly could in helping you be better in your assignment. And that included allowing people to find the right seat on the bus. We often had people that were doing a very good job and said, “You know,” because we had a culture they knew allowed this, “I think I would really like to work in the media department. I think, I'm really good. I could be good at that.”

And it was not uncommon that we would have people come out of different departments. I remember one of our most successful people in the media department came out of IT, of all places. And that's not a natural flow, but if you create that kind of culture where people know you're in a safe place where I can have those kinds of conversations and be encouraged, we were willing to take that on.

So I believe that in a leader, the traits of trust, consistency, and encouragement are above technical ability at the top. You may be in a job where you need extreme technical ability—you know, you're a scientist—but if you want to build a great organization above that, you've got to be able to be trustworthy, consistent, and be an encourager in order for you to accomplish everything you want to accomplish as a scientist or engineer.

Al: That's great advice, Doug. You know, speaking of giving advice, you're on several boards, including the Joni and Friends board. You're also on the Best Christian Workplaces’ board, which I appreciate your wisdom, and our board does; and Jay Bransford, our president, does as well. So, some of our listeners are in senior-leadership positions and regularly interact with their board, and some of our listeners also are board members. So what do you see as some of the best practices for board members as they keep their pulse on the health of an organization without getting into the day-to-day operations?

Doug: I think one of the things that's very important for a board member to understand and seek to understand is the line between governance and operations. In ministries or companies that I've seen where that line is blurred, things become blurred. That's the problem and not productive. So in very simple terms, governance should tell you what you can't do. It's kind of like the government, you know. You can't sign a contract more than $100,000. You can't buy property, you know, all of those things. If it's not on the “can't do” list, then it's on the “can do” list and give operations freedom. Let them operate in freedom with encouragement. And they have to be able to report back to the board with complete transparency. I believe that transparency and freedom, again, that's that integration, where I don't get involved as a board member in operations unless I'm invited. Me, perhaps I have an expertise or a board member has an expertise that can help in operations. But I think you need to be invited to do that and that there is a—governance is governance and operations is operations. Let the creative process flow. And again, that trust between the two. I would say that the boards I'm on, there's an incredible amount of trust between the governance group and the operations group.

And I think as a board member, one of the largest, one of the biggest duties is to be an encourager. Now, if you're coming into a board where the organization has terrible problems, then you've got to be able to tackle those problems. But there's no problem that doesn't need encouragement. I mean, you cannot just beat people down to make them better. You've got to encourage them and find ways to encourage people in order to lift them up and make the organization better. If at the end of my tenure on a board, I'm remembered as an encourager, I did my job. I'm happy with that. I just believe so much in encouragement. I got the jobs that I have largely beyond my ability because people encouraged me. And I want to be that guy.

Al: I've heard you talk, Doug, about how presenting to the board sharpens ideas. Does that ring a bell?

Doug: Yes. I had a board at Joni and Friends specifically—I don't think they'll mind me saying this because I'm a board member now—“Gee, what's the bad news? We're just listening to these presentations. What are we really producing for you? I don't feel like my time is productive.” And I told them, “You're being here, we have such respect for you. And the operational people have so much respect for you that as they're doing their job they know I'm going to be reporting this to the board, and your presence and your stature in the eyes of operations is so high that throughout the year the quality of what we're doing, one of those factors is I'm going to have to talk to the board about this, and your presence is incredibly important.” And that gives us opportunities to both improve what we hear when we get a presentation and to encourage. And so, yes, the board can have physical activities and reports that they want to do, and committees, and all of that sort of thing. But you need to be producing an environment and a culture that adds to the production and the quality of the success of the organization.

Al: That's very thoughtful.

So, Doug, let's transition a little bit just to your own situation. We've talked over the years and even since you've retired. And you've had a long leadership career in the corporate sector as well as in faith-based non-profit leadership. And in one of our conversations, you mentioned the transition to retirement was one of the hardest transitions that you've made. Now you've five years into this season. Do you have any thoughts or advice for some of the leaders who might be in their last third of their careers or kind of approaching this transition to retirement? What advice would you have for them?

Doug: I retired—I hate to call it retirement. It was more I became a COD from a COO, a change of direction. When I left, I was 72 years old and still had the energy to go on, but it was time. I thought 20 years of Doug Mazza’s enough for anybody, except my wife, happily, who has been with me more than double that time. Praise God for that. But I would say that, yeah, it was not easy. It was not easy. You know, I read Colin Powell's book, My American Journey, and one of the things I stopped on was, he was the head of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Secretary of State. And he retired, and on his first day of retirement, he was under the kitchen sink, fixing a plumbing problem for his wife. And he realized, “This is what I do,” and he wasn't happy about it. I feel like I've been under the kitchen sink when I first retired.

Perhaps you've picked up on this, whether you like what I've said or not, I'm a very social person. I really believe in integration, other people, getting involved in their lives, and suddenly there wasn't anybody there. I actually went through a difficult period of time. I mean, I've been on, as you mentioned, I've stayed on some boards and been very active in my church. But that's not the same as being in charge of an international organization and being able to interact with all these wonderful people.

And so I went through, you know, a bit of a down period. And I found out that I actually began to think, “Maybe I'm all done. Maybe God is done with me.” And then—I hope it's okay to mention this—and then my grandson passed away very suddenly and tragically. And four months later, my disabled son died. And I thought, “Well, this is about as much as a notation of being done as perhaps you can get.” It was very tragic, and it was a very dark time for me.

But God lifted me from that. And he said, “No, you're not done.” And I began looking. You know, we have to look for God's opportunities, and He never stops. I know there's a story in 2 Kings where the woman had so many containers to fill with oil, and the oil kept flowing and flowing and flowing and flowing until she ran out of containers. And then, they all stopped flowing. And so that's who we are. We are to provide ourselves as the container, and God will continue to flow the blessings into your life and continue with the purpose. He's never done with you until you walk through that gate where, hopefully, we all get to hear, “Well done, good and faithful servant,” and get our new jobs.

So I'm looking forward to whatever God has in store for me on both a daily basis. I pray a prayer very similar to Jabez’ prayer, “Expand my territory. Keep me from evil that I will not do harm,” and being available, “Bless me indeed, Lord.” And that works. I suggest everybody do that. God is not done with anybody.

Al: Well, thanks, Doug, and you certainly have been a great encourager on the board of the Best Christian Workplaces, and that's great advice for all of us. Thank you so much.

Well, Doug, we've learned so much from our conversation. Just going back to thinking of the four pillars, where you led off, and how you've installed these great four pillars at Joni and Friends: lead like Jesus, integration, excellence in areas of expertise, and be a best Christian workplace. And how measuring is a predictor of performance going forward. And the three areas of inspirational leadership you spoke into: spiritual leadership, Christian community, and competence; and how board members play such an important role. So, thanks so much for your contribution today, Doug.

Is there anything else that you'd like to add that we've talked about today?

Doug: Go be a best Christian workplace. Lead like Jesus. He loves you. He's never going to stop. And we have an eternal God that is a good God all the time.

Al: Amen.

Well, Doug, thanks so much for your contribution today. Most of all, I appreciate your deep commitment to God and the way that you've prioritized organizational health and your leadership over time. Thanks so much for taking your time today and speaking in the lives of so many listeners.

Doug: Always honored to see you, Al.

Al: Thank you so much for listening to my conversation with Doug. I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did.

You can find out ways to connect with him and links to everything we discussed in the show notes and transcript at workplaces.org/podcast.

What's one step that you can take this week to lead more like Jesus? Well, whether it's improving integration, investing in your team's excellence, or simply making someone feel seen on their first day, well, start here and remember, measuring the health of your culture isn't extra; it's essential. Don't just hope your workplace is flourishing; know it. Learn more or begin your own culture assessment at workplaces.org.

Well, thanks again for joining us on the Flourishing Culture Leadership Podcast. I hope today's conversation sparked fresh ideas and encouragement for your leadership journey.

Next week's episode will be a little different and deeply meaningful for me personally. I'll be stepping into the guest seat for one final conversation to reflect on the incredible journey that we've shared across these nearly 450 episodes. It's a moment of gratitude, celebration, and transition, and I can't wait to share it with you.

Until then, keep leading with purpose, and continue to cultivate flourishing wherever God has placed you.

Outro: The Flourishing Culture Leadership Podcast is sponsored by Best Christian Workplaces. If you need support building a flourishing workplace culture, please visit workplaces.org for more information.

We'll see you again next week for more valuable content to help you develop strong leaders and build a flourishing workplace culture.