Transcript: Healthy Habits for Long-Term Leadership // Doug Nuenke, The Navigators

The Flourishing Culture Podcast Series

“Healthy Habits for Long-Term Leadership“

February 7, 2022

Doug Nuenke

Intro: Imagine just finishing a 13-year run, leading a large global Christian ministry. What would you consider your legacy? What would your plans be? How did the selection of your successor go? What was your involvement in helping in the process? Well, today we have a great privilege of having a conversation with Doug Nuenke, who just finished a 13-year term as the president of The Navigators. Listen in to hear his responses to these and other questions.

Al Lopus: Hi, I'm Al Lopus, and you're listening to the Flourishing Culture Podcast, where we help you create a flourishing workplace. The problem employers are facing today is that more of our employees are quitting than ever before. Some people are calling this the great resignation. And now with millions of open jobs, how can churches, Christian non-profits, and Christian-owned businesses face this tidal wave of resignations while attracting new, outstanding talent? And we know that having a flourishing workplace with fully engaged employees is the solution. I'll be your guide today as we talk with a thought leader about key steps that you can take to create a flourishing workplace culture.

So, now let's meet today's special guest.

As a leader, you may be able to push through a few years on your own strength, but what practices will sustain you as a leader for more than a decade? And how do you set up a healthy transition as you develop future leaders for your organization? Well, today we'll address these leadership topics and help your organization flourish over the long term.

And I'm delighted to welcome the now-former president of The Navigators, Doug Nuenke to the Flourishing Culture Podcast.

Doug, The Navigators has been certified as a best Christian workplace for at least the last six years, and you led a well-known organization, but just remind us, what's the vision and mission of The Navigators?

Doug Nuenke: Yeah. Thanks, Al. Our tagline of The Navigators is to know Christ, make Him known, and help others do the same. So in a word, The Navigators, now we're going on about almost 90 years, which is amazing.

Al: Yeah.

Doug: We've been all about helping people to know Christ, to grow deep in Him, to have a relationship that flourishes day in and day out. And then, for them to be able to come alongside their friends, family, people in their normal walks of life and help them grow as disciples. So basically, helping those people become disciple makers. So a generational flow of the gospel through lives as men and women in different walks of life are involved in the everyday relationships they have and seeing Jesus impact those relationships and have them grow in the skills and the passion for making disciples.

And we in The Navigators, like I said, 90 years, well, we now have about 2700 staff and even more volunteers in our U.S. work, and I just stepped out of being our U.S. president. We have a broader worldwide presence that has over 5,000 staff in the U.S. We're on college campuses. We’re on military bases. We’re in cities and neighborhoods, working with under-resourced communities, as well as places like Capitol Hill in Washington, D.C. We partner with hundreds and hundreds of local churches, both in the U.S. and around the world, and we’ve got 400 or 500 hundred missionaries that serve from the U.S. in different parts of the world. So it's amazing to see what God's done to grow The Navigators over the years—what a privilege—and to be able to serve in the role that I've just finished serving in.

Al: Yeah. It's a remarkable breadth of ministry, as I really enjoyed working with you. And now you've led The Navigators for 13 years, and now you're transitioning out of the role of U.S. president. And there's a lot that we can learn from you about leadership because you've got the experience, and you've successfully worked through those years. You've experienced the organization experience health and growth.

Well, let's start with some of the habits and rhythms of life and leadership that have helped you get across that finish line. And I can see on our Zoom call a smile on your face. What habits have sustained you as a leader for the long haul, Doug?

Doug: Yeah. It's funny you mention the smile on the face. Early on in my tenure, those 13 years, I was talking to the then-international-president, Mike Treneer, and one of my goals was when I finished, and along the way, that I would have—and a term that we came up with was a spring in my step and a smile on my face. And it's God's grace, obviously, first and last on that, because we can do all kinds of things, but sometimes life happens, and it's a little bit more overwhelming, as we all know. And I know, Al, you work with a lot of leaders, so you can attest to that.

One of the things this last, even last few years, The Navigators have had as one of our strategic initiatives, and it's kind of a different one, to abide, to grow more deeply in our abiding relationship with Jesus. And in the midst of the last few years, I've been brought back again to the fact that our rhythms are not what make abiding happen. God is always in front of us. God is always doing things and blessing us, and by His grace, setting things up. He does the heavy lifting, I like to say. You know, when we look at John 15, verse five, where it says, “I'm the vine. You are the branches. If a man remains in Me and I and him, he will bear much fruit. Apart from me, you can do nothing,” and sometimes we can turn these rhythms into more work that we have to do. And really, I like to call them rhythms of grace because what we're doing is joining God in what He's already done.

It's funny that John 14 comes before John 15. Go figure. And in John 14, He talks about giving the Holy Spirit. He talks about not leaving us as orphans. He talks about that He is going to live with us and in us. So He makes that promise. And then, He says, “Therefore, abide with Me. Make your home in Me. I’m here. I'm available.” And so any rhythms I have or have grown to be rhythms of grace, rhythms of response to what God has already done.

And so for me, I like to say, you know, that I want to warm my heart every day with Jesus. Even before I get up out of bed, I've got some verses that I reflect on, that I've memorized and I review, that draw my heart to Jesus, whether it's Bible reading, the particular devotion I'm going through, day after day to warm my heart with Jesus. And then I like to say a day a week, and maybe we can talk later about the idea of Sabbath. And then days a month, and then weeks during a year.

So, for instance, days a month, I’ve set aside for years now, set aside three days a month that are just set aside for prayer, for being in the scriptures. That's when I do the majority of my preparation. It's when I do the majority of my writing, because those days are like a retreat, and it’s beautiful for anything I write and anything I'm going to speak on to grow out of and to blossom out of those kind of days with the Lord. And so I set aside three days. Honestly, I don't get a full three days in the kind of jobs that many of us have. I got to clear the deck, and there's a crisis here or there, but I try to take care of those on the first day so that I have at least two full days that are really set aside to be with the Lord.

And then, try to set aside time each year, at least. At the end of each year, I set aside New Year's Day, and Pam and I did it again this year, where we just have at least one day, if not a couple of days, where we're journaling, going back through our journals from the last year, looking back and saying, “What has God said to us? What lessons has He built into our lives? In what ways is He transforming us? In what areas is He drawing us to Himself, giving us hope for the future? What are verses that He's really embedded in us that need to be foundations for the next year?” And so those are some things that have helped, as well as the Navs relationship with the Lord.

But other rhythms of grace, I think, is leading as a we versus just leading as an I. I know that my role as U.S. president of The Navigators, any success, any flourishing that took place over those 13 years was because of the people that God put around me, the gifts of those other people, people on the executive team. And it was one of our modus operandi as a leadership team that we would lead as a we—w-e— and the way we define that is we're in it together. We're not alone. You know, there's still some things that we as leaders have to make decisions on and need to move forward. But our normal operating day in and day out was leading as a we, and that helped.

And one last comment on rhythms of life and leadership is for me to keep a learner's posture. I like to say, in the last five years came up with this phrase of suspending certainty as a leader. Instead of jumping on something and pressing ahead right away, as if I had confidence that this was the right answer, to learn to pause, to ask one more question, and to show that I had a humble spirit. I was willing to learn, willing to take the input from others in my leadership. And I think those three areas, you know, the abiding in Christ in those different ways, leading as a we, and having a learner's posture has been very helpful.

Al: Yeah. Wow. Fantastic, Doug. Appreciate that. God does go before us, doesn't He?

Doug: Oh, man.

Al: Yeah, yeah. Rhythms of grace. I love that.

Well, these are all so important, these personal practices, and that's a lot to just reflect. I love your idea, the abiding, and then two or three days a month, clearly time at the beginning of the year, to journal, setting that time aside. I set aside this year myself three days at the first of the year to kind of journal, reflect what's God doing. What's He got in mind for the next six months? You know, those are great practices.

Well, tell us about how you have been supported in accountability as a leader. And I know this has been something that's been important to you. Do you have any individuals or groups that have been important in this area during your tenure as president?

Doug: Well, what a gift it is. I had a chance to do some post-graduate work at seminary, up in Denver, and this whole thing that God has designed us for community, I mean, we could sit and do a Bible study—we don't have the time here—but to look at how God has really set us up to be together with others. And I've really been blessed that way, Al. What a gift I've had for so many different groups and individuals to be around me over the years to walk with me, for me to learn from. And over the last 13 years, certainly as the president of the U.S. Navs, I had the board of directors and even a special committee that I had called the U.S. President Advisory Committee, that every month, which together with Pam and I on Zoom or a phone call at least a couple of times face to face each year, to check our pulse and see how we were doing as a couple, seeing how we were doing individually, to walk with us, to look at what our strategic plan was and see how that was playing out, as well as what the challenges were we were facing in my job.

And then, on top of that, I've had the gift of four men, who have gotten on the phone with me each month to just check in. And I've been doing that for decades, actually, in a couple different roles, but particularly re-upped it in a more consistent way during these last 13 years. So we get on the phone each month. They don't let me do the ministry thing and start asking them a bunch of questions, because we literally just keep it to 30 to 40 minutes. You know, they'll throw a penalty flag if I start doing that, start checking up with them. They said, “Hey, this is your time. This is for us to ask you questions and dive in to how you're doing.” We get on the phone and they, too—these are guys that I've known, many for 35 to 40 years, that can ask me anything. And they know when I'm not fully telling them the whole story, and they can enter in and the Lord uses that time. The Holy Spirit speaks through them to give guidance, to share a scripture, to be able to ask another question, to be able to help me move forward.

And then a third group is, just locally, we have people that through the years that we meet in a small group. In some cases, they all attend the same church. In other cases, they haven’t. But they are really our deepest fellowship locally. These other four guys that I get on the phone with, they’re spread out all over the U.S. But this other group has always been people that are close in, that know what's going on with us, that we walk with and pray with one another.

Al: That’s generally a couples’ group, Doug.

Doug: Yes. It has been, yeah.

Al: Yeah. Wow. So, four levels. And you mentioned, here's—for our listeners, this is really interesting. I was just on the phone with Michael Martin, the president of ECFA, and they're getting a lot of interest in making sure that their membership has accountability groups. And your U.S. President Advisory Committee with monthly check ins is a great model for that. So I'm sure there'll be more of that going. That’s a great model, Doug. Thanks.

So the board; your advisory committee of the board; you've got a group of four guys that you've known a long time that kind of keep you on the straight and narrow; and then a couples’ small group that you've participated in. That's community, for sure, Doug.

Doug: Mm-hmm.

Al: Yeah, great. Well, so, that's a lot of accountability.

And now I know that you and Pam have been married for many years, and there are some habits or practices that you share as a couple that you've helped to serve, in fact, hand in hand and heart to heart for all these years now. What are some of those?

Doug: Well, you know, we've been married 40 years this past summer, Al.

Al: Congratulations.

Doug: Yeah. It's pretty exciting that we've flourished and gone through the difficult times, the ups and downs of marriage, which everyone goes through. And I think the most important one that someone exhorted us in early in our marriage was to keep dating and to make sure we were setting aside times a couple times a year to get away as a couple, even if it was one night overnight, to make sure that we were doing that and just being together and giving the opportunity, because life gets busy. And depending on the season of life, when the kids are young, kids are teenagers, you're going to all kinds of events and choir performances or sports activities, life can get away from you. And certainly, the ministries and organizations that we are involved with and some of us in kind of a leadership role can get us moving faster than is healthy.

So that idea that we had commitment to keep dating and having a night, at least every other week, to go out for dinner or bring dinner in, just to sit and talk. And then getting away as a couple has been big. And that's allowed us—

Al: Yeah.

Doug: Go ahead.

Al: A healthy Sabbath rhythm. What can you tell us about your journey in this area, Doug, of Sabbath?

Doug: You know, it was really easy for me to see Sabbath as something that I would get to periodically rather than seeing the healthy rhythm that God had set up for us in the Scriptures. What I'm not saying is a legalistic form of Sabbath. When you look at the scriptures, you see that Sabbath was made for man.

Al: Mm-hmm.

Doug: It was given to us as a gift. It creates that stopping point. And about 10 years ago, probably, I came to the conclusion I really need to do a better job in that. I could find myself working a little bit every day. I was on the phone with someone recently and talking with them who said basically that. I work a little bit every day. And for me personally, I found it really helpful to slow down, to fully stop, because something happens when I work every day of the week. For me, it's Sunday, these days. There were times in our ministry life where it was better for us to have Sabbath be on a Monday or Tuesday, you know, when I was working in church years ago. Sunday was a work day, so I had to figure out another day to be able to set aside.

So, it's been really helpful for me in the last decade to stop, to shut things down work wise, some time on Saturday and all the way through Sunday. You know, there'll be some Saturdays where I don't just work on a Saturday morning, but it goes on in the afternoon. And I always want to stop some time in Saturday and then have complete time away from work on Sunday.

One of the biggest challenges in that is making sure that for me, that there's a team rhythm in whatever team I'm on. I can remember a number of years ago there was someone on a team I was on, and they seemed to always send out an email with an assignment on Saturday night that was going to be due on Monday. Now, I, in recent years, don't even look at my email on Sunday. That would have taken care of that, right? Unfortunately, back then, I was even still looking at my email on Sunday to make sure I didn't miss something like that. The importance of there being a group of people, a team of people that have a common commitment to Sabbath, and they will help one another Sabbath by not sending assignments, not calling, not emailing during that time. And obviously, depending on the context and situation, you have to work out the details of that. But that's been really helpful, too.

Al: Yeah. Yeah, that’s fascinating. And again, when you're the CEO and there are so many devices that we can look at email, and, “Oh, yeah. Oh, there's an email. I can just forward that real quick.” You're sending a message if you're doing that on a Sunday, for sure. I fully understand that, and I'm guilty of that myself.

Well, you know, Doug, as we've mentioned before, The Navigators have been certified as a best Christian workplace now for a number of years. And even in the midst of the pandemic, your healthy communication and inspirational leadership results saw significant improvements, and they were strong to start with. This wasn't always true for our ministry partners. What do you attribute the communication progress, the improvement in healthy communication, are a flourish driver this year?

Doug: The one thought I've got on that, Al, is that our staff and the people we're communicating with appreciate communication when it affirms they are seen and heard. Many times, I, probably more situations than I'd like to admit, could come up with an idea or something that needs to be communicated, and I'm communicating out there with very little appreciation or sensitivity to where my audience is at. I suspect that during 2020, 2021, during the pandemic, I saw our staff and our staff leadership be more empathetic, recognize that our teams out there across the country, in many cases, were struggling. They were struggling with having to come up with creative ways of doing ministry, that they had spent decades doing it in a certain way and needed to change; or the disappointments of cancelations and not having things go as planned or having on site, face-to-face thing turn into a virtual thing, all those kind of things, which we all experienced. I really saw our team and our leadership increase in empathy, choose to be responsive to the issues that were arising, to know what was going on so that the communication was sensitive to the context and sensitive in the situation that our staff were going through. And here we were in the midst of COVID, and we all know of the political divisions and the divisiveness that even came out of whether you wear a mask or don't wear a mask or get vaccinated or don't get vaccinated. Those things can easily divide us, and having our communication show that we're creating a safe space and we're not polarizing. In some cases, it would have been safer to be silent. We chose to not be silent, but to enter in with empathy, enter in with understanding, entering in with, “Hey, we don't have all the answers on this, but we know that you all are wrestling out there,” that seemed to be one of the areas, I think, that helped our communication to be received in a different way than maybe in the past.

Al: Yeah. Yeah. Very sensitive. That’s great. Thanks, Doug.

I trust you’re enjoying our podcast today. We’ll be right back after an important word for leaders.

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Al: And now, back to today’s special guest.

Speaking of the last couple of years, of course, diversity, equity, inclusion, those became a bigger issue, and based on the Employee Engagement Survey, diversity is clearly highly valued at The Navigators. Your organization has been higher than other ministries in this area, and I know that diversity is something that you continue to work on. So what have you learned that might help other leaders in this area?

Doug: Well, this is an area that we see, or any success we have, being God's grace, and we still have much further to go. We're still learning. Yet I do see that we have made some progress, and it's been a long journey. My predecessors were working at it, so really anything we did was built on their shoulders. And about six or seven years ago, we reignited this initiative to want to be a place where ethnic minorities were able to make their full contribution. The way that we're communicating it more now, which I think is more true for what we want, what we envision, is that we don't just want to be a place that's diverse and where there's inclusion, but we actually want to be a place, and have The Navigators be a place where there's equity and a sense of belonging for all people, for everyone that's a Navigator to feel that The Navigators are their home. And that means give and take. It means, you know, some groups that have had more voice and have had the microphone more have to be able to give the microphone away to people that haven't. And so, you know, we can look at the scriptures and see it motivates us to see that it's God's plan to see all people and all nations before the throne as reflected in Revelation. We know that that's going to be the case at the end of time. So we entered in, knowing we were partnering with God in something that He really desired.

And one key thing I think that we learned along the way is that we've heard from others in both our organization and other organizations how important it is for this to be valued and embraced by the senior leadership team and by the president, and to be included and involved in everything that goes on. And so I was involved in the early days pulling together what we called an ethnic ministry commission to be able to take a look at this and getting a group of ethnic minority staff and leaders together with us and creating a safe space where they could tell us what we needed to learn and what we needed to do to adapt and adjust.

And I think, going back to something we talked about earlier, I think keeping a humble learner spirit is a big part of what has helped us to move forward, to know that for me personally, to know that I don't know everything. I certainly can't even begin to understand what others have gone through, who have grown up in a different environment and have had a different background than I have. And I think starting at that place, being learners and walking together, has been helpful. And we are growing. It’s exciting to see the results in the Survey, and it's exciting to see the faces and the smiles of our leadership. And as our leadership has become more diverse, and I think it's become more diverse because they feel like they belong, it's not just tokenism. It's not just people in power, i.e. Anglos or white leaders, giving opportunities, but it's actually, hey, we are all in this together, and we have equal voice and equal contribution. It’s exciting.

Al: That is exciting. And the sense of belonging, Doug, I’ve been reading more and more about that, just creating that sense of belonging and how people can feel safe, that it's their home, the way we feel at home. Those are key thoughts. And as you say, you can't delegate this. The president has to be involved in the leadership.

Well, Doug, let's shift our conversation to succession. You know, it's such an essential step that many times gets messed up in ministry. Can you give us some insight into your own decision that it was time to step back from your role as the U.S. president of The Navigators? How did that go?

Doug: Well, clearly much prayer and seeking the Lord and seeking the counsel of our board chair and the international president all along the way. I was in the third year of what I felt would be my final five-year term. So in The Navigators for the U.S. president, we have five-year terms, so to speak, and so I was in year 13 of 15—what could have been 15 if I’d served out that final five-year term—and as I conversed with the board chair, international president, as we prayed, as we prepared a bench, I believe that when a leader is called to do what God has asked them to do and when they have done a decent job of doing those things that God's called them to, it's time to step aside. And I felt that the things that God had put as kind of a to-do list early on in my tenure were getting checked off, and even things that He put on my to-do list partway through that became new marching orders.

Like, for instance, we had a new national strategic plan that we launched a couple of years ago, and I had a deep sense that my job was to get that launched, to get it up, be involved in seeing it get up off the runway enough where it would have taken flight, and then it was going to be time to step aside. So that was the first value is—I hesitate to use the word accomplished because usually everything is a work in progress—but when I've really laid my hands and there's forward movement on the areas that God's called me to to have that value to step aside.

And then, on top of that, we have such a deep value and desire for developing the next generation of leaders. And I desire to pass the baton to them and to give them a chance to trust God to move things forward. So it's exciting. When I think about that, I was excited to think that we had a bench, and we've given a lot of time to leader development, and we had good people.

There was also some of the details of when board chair’s succession is going to happen, when my succession and making sure that there's good timing so both of us didn't leave at the same time. And I really had a high value for our board chair to be able to stick around for a couple of years to be with the new U.S. president.

Al: Yeah. In an earlier conversation, Doug, I remember you saying you had really worked a lot on developing that bench  in your tenure, and as you looked around, there's a whole group of people that were ready to go, from your perspective, that you would have felt comfortable turning the ministry over to. Is that right?

Doug: Yeah. Yeah. We've had a high value on leading with a developmental bias. You know, early on in my tenure, we wanted to see that happen and wanted to recognize that none of us in our roles are going to be in those roles forever, and there's a need for good succession.

Al: Well, tell us a little bit about how you intentionally, then, poured into this next generation of leaders over the past few years, knowing that you wouldn’t be the president forever, and with that bias for development. Tell us about some of those things.

Doug: Well, about 10 or 11 years ago, we came to the conviction that we really wanted The Navigators to be a place that part of our culture was this idea of a developmental bias, where everyone was developing people that were coming up behind them. And one of the first programs we put in place was something we called LDI, our Leadership Development Institute. And over these years, we've had hundreds of emerging and current leaders who have been developed in and through this program called LDI, a two-year process, that people engage with, and they’re in leadership cohorts with other people that are in similar roles as they are. And they learn through action learning, taking theory and applying it to their actual jobs and the actual things that they are taking on that God has put on their plate. So that was one big one.

And then, a number of years later, we developed something we end up calling Sharpen the Ax, STA, and that came from Ecclesiastes 10:10 says if the ax is dull and it's edge unsharpened, more strength is needed, but skill will bring success. So STA was actually focused on emerging executive-level leaders, so leaders that we would define as leading hundreds and thousands of people. So certainly, our executive-leadership team and our mission-leadership teams and our city-leadership teams, we really focused on them to be able to bring that new level of skill in areas like change management or strategic thinking or systems thinking or developing the inner life, a healthy inner life of a leader, are some of the areas that we focused on. And so there were over 60 national leaders that went through that process, again, which was about a two-year process. And wow, those 60 leaders, as we had LDI and we had this STA, we all of a sudden looked around, and we had people that were growing, that were taking on new challenges because they had a new sense of confidence that they could take things on, and they were growing to flourish and excel in their jobs.

And then, you know, the last two and a half years I identified, through kind of informal survey of leaders, if something were to happen to me and I was not able to serve any longer, who would be some names that they saw as possibilities that would replace me? And I took those five, and we began to meet together, and we got spouses, and we met together over those two and a half years. I wanted to grow them not just as individuals, but as a community. And from early on, we said, “Hey, it may not even be any of you here, but we want you to grow as friends. We want you to grow in trust. We realize that only one of you, if it's any of you, will be the next U.S. president. And in all likelihood, God will have His hand on the rest of you to serve together, we hope, with whoever God calls out as the new leader.” And it was wonderful to see how that and how that grew them and their community grew and their trust for one another grew.

I had a buddy along the way that said, “Doug, you need to tell them that an NBA Championship team doesn't have just one star. There's always multiple stars that are on the court. And in fact, when you look at a good NBA team, the same person isn't the person that is the star for that game. It takes different people stepping up at different times, and everybody doesn't have a great day.” And it was that beauty of the fact that we need gifted leaders that play different roles, and there's only one point guard, but there's a need for others to really bring their best and to serve as a team.

Al: So, that’s definitely not the Saul-and-David approach, where Saul was afraid of David, and he knew he was the successor. I mean, I can't tell you how much I respect that you're bringing in four or five people together and their spouses, to recognize that you're going to be, perhaps, one of those that will succeed me. Let's work together. Let's build your confidence. Let's build a sense of commitment and community that you've got. I mean, that's, unfortunately, too many, as I've seen, are suspicious of the next generation, and I really appreciate that approach. Thanks, Doug.

Doug: Well, hey, and another thing that just hit me is one of the first gatherings when we got together, we looked at Luke 22, and part of Luke 22 talks about the Last Supper, and here are the disciples, right before Jesus leaves, in Luke 22, one of the last things that the disciples are doing is they're having an argument about who's going to be the greatest.

Al: Right.

Doug: And then another guy, Peter, gets called out that he's going to deny Christ three times before the rooster crows. So we were able to engage on that and talk about, what are the aspects of our hearts that cause us to compete with one another and even try to end up being divided from one another?

Al: Yeah. Right.

Doug: And it was fruitful, and those kinds of conversations were huge, and it was huge when the selection took place back in August. It had a big impact on how they responded to how God was leading.

Al: Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Well, it sounds like your investments in leadership development will continue to serve as that plays out with The Navigators in the future. How about now the sense of what's next in your season of life and ministry, Doug? What are your thoughts?

Doug: Well, Al, that has been something that's on our minds and hearts, certainly. We've had a lot of counsel to stop and rest for a period of time before we really seriously start thinking about what's next. A number of years ago, I read something—I can't remember which book it was by Max De Pree—and in it, he said the first job of the leader is to assess reality; the last job is to say thank you. So Pam and I, thankfully, were leaving this role with the board having been really happy with how things have gone and our leader community is. So that's Pam and I, that we can travel around the country for a few months and, basically, go to different places where we have groups of staff that we know pretty well that we've learned from, people that have influenced us over the years, and people that are serving the Lord and saying yes to Jesus in their calling, and to say thank you. And so we're doing that up through mid-March, and then, after that, we'll take a sabbatical and figure out what's next.

Al: As I recall, Doug, we talked about, you've actually thought about this even, on the impact of you. You've had people speak into your life about this transition. We won't call it necessarily retirement. So you've also had people speak into your life in that way too, haven't you?

Doug: I have. You know, I have a lot of good counselors that are with me along the way. One of the biggest messages, “When you step out of a role where you've been moving as fast as you've been moving, Doug”— this is coming from some different friends—"You don't realize how tired you are. You don't realize the need to slow down.” I'm meeting with an executive coach right now. He said, “What you need is detox.” So starting mid-March or early April, we're going to go first into detox, slowing down, pausing, leaving behind what's been, learning from it, reflecting on it, and beginning to ask God in due time, what's next? But first, just to stop, remember that we are not first and foremost leaders. We’re not first and foremost whatever role we're in. We're first and foremost children of God. We're sons and daughters of the Most High God. There in Galatians 4 says, we're no longer slaves, but sons and daughters, and therefore we're heirs—h-e-i-r-s—of an inheritance. And to remember that, be able to pause and remember that before we go on.

Al: Well, Doug, I've really enjoyed all we’ve learned. Gosh, you know, so for leaders listening, here's 13 years of ministry of a large ministry, and here are some secrets. One is to start with the rhythms and to abide in Christ, to take a couple of days a month in prayer and being in the scripture, to take some time on an annual basis to reflect and journal, and, what has God said to us over that period of time? We’ve also talked about accountability. And, you know, certainly, top leaders have accountability of the board. But this idea of a special advisory committee focused on just the individual and the couple and the leadership, you know, being involved in a small group of dedicated supporters and then just, again, spiritual Bible study small groups with a local fellowship. Just great advice for us, including Sabbath and leaders. Let's watch those emails on Sunday or on your Sabbath day. And communication diversity. We've just talked about a number of things. I really was touched with your discussion about development and how we as leaders need to make sure—I've heard the saying, there's no success without succession, and I think that's true, and you've just really outlined that.

So, Doug, how about anything you'd like to add that we've talked about, just a thought?

Doug: Well, I’d just say as I move out of this role and to say that I've really appreciated your influence over the years. I can remember you being the first person I heard the quote of “Culture eats strategy for breakfast.” And I know that when I first started out in my role as U.S. president of The Navigators, my greatest hope was that we would leave behind a more healthy culture that would help people flourish and that's a fragrant aroma of Jesus Christ for His glory. And I think by God's grace, that has been true, which we are just celebrating and thankful. I'm thankful to your help and friendship over the years. Thanks.

Al: Yeah.

Ladies and gentlemen, Doug Nuenke, the now-former U.S. president of The Navigators, thanks so much for your contributions. And most of all, I appreciate your devotion and service to our loving God, and you communicated that so well today. So thank you for taking time out of your day and speaking into the lives of so many listeners. Thanks, Doug.

Doug: Been great to be with you, Al. Thanks for your friendship.

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