The Flourishing Culture Podcast Series
“Why Reconciliation and Diversity Are Important for Your Organization“
November 15, 2021
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Al Lopus: Hi, I'm Al Lopus, and you're listening to the Flourishing Culture Podcast, where we help you create a flourishing workplace. The problem employers are facing today is that more of our employees are quitting than ever before. Some people are calling this the great resignation. And now with millions of open jobs, how can churches, Christian non-profits, and Christian-owned businesses face this tidal wave of resignations while attracting new, outstanding talent? And we know that having a flourishing workplace with fully engaged employees is the solution. I'll be your guide today as we talk with a thought leader about key steps that you can take to create a flourishing workplace culture.
So, now let's meet today's special guest.
As a leader, you face the challenge of bringing together people with different experiences toward a common vision. We want to help you have engaged employees and a flourishing workplace. And for Christian leaders, part of building a great workplace includes learning how to incorporate reconciliation into your regular practices.
And I'm delighted to welcome David Bailey back to our podcast. He's the founder and executive director of Arrabon. We've had David on the podcast before and wanted to continue our conversation from that point. So David, welcome to the Flourishing Culture Podcast.
David Bailey: Al, it’s so good to be back again. Thanks for having me back.
Al: And remind us of the meaning of the word arrabon and the focus of your organization.
David: Yeah, great question. So the name arrabon, the word arrabon, it's a Greek word. It’s used in the New Testament. It means a foretaste of things to come. So the way it’s used in the New Testament is the Holy Spirit has given the church as a foretaste of the Kingdom of God to come. But here's the thing: the world doesn’t get the Holy Spirit. What the world gets is the church or Christian representatives and Christian communities. So we try to do is we try to help Christian communities to be a foretaste of the Kingdom of God to come. And we do that, there's a lot of ways you can do that, but the way that we do this is focus on being a reconciling community.
Al: Hm. So, that's a great reminder of our purpose in the Kingdom of God. Before we dive into the reasons for reconciliation or maybe the issues of reconciliation, I'm also interested in the leadership team of Arrabon. You know, I look at your website and very interested in your programs, and you're a very entrepreneurial organization. And you know, it's interesting the way you've kind of structured the organization. You're not necessarily the CEO, but how did you pull the team together, and how is it structured?
David: It evolved over the years. My wife identified back in 2008, and said, “Hey, David. You got a way of getting people together of different backgrounds, explaining things, that people keep on asking you, ‘How do you do this?’ And so you should start writing and teaching about it.” So I did that, and I was also part of a local church, of a church plant, that was crossing racial and socioeconomic lines. And we didn't have the tools that we needed to do that type of church. It's one thing to say, “Hey, we're going to focus on Jesus, and we’d love to do it,” but the practical aspect of things, it was more of an aspirational value than an embodied practice. And we didn't really have tools to kind of figure out how to make an embodied practice.
So, like you said, I mean, God’s just great to me in a way to be entrepreneurial and not have _____(time stamp 04:14), “Okay. Well, let's just figure out how to create it.” And so that would happen for about 10 years and started this internship program and got some different interns. So my employees kind of end up being like interns, and the ones that will stay around that could deal with a crazy, visionary entrepreneur, those who can endure that kind of craziness, stayed around. They stayed, the employees.
But then, just after 10 years, I realized, “Man, I’m kind of wearing people out. I need to get a COO.”
David: So I got Hahna Kimbrough willing to be my COO. And in recent years—well, actually, not recent years, in recent months, actually—she's been with me for three years and really helped the organization grow infrastructure-wise. But we realized, like that book Rocket Fuel by Gino Wickman, oh, man, that's been a game changer, a lifesaver for us to kind of help to realize, like, you know, I'm a visionary, I need have an integrator, and then we just have been building out the team accordingly in that way.
Al: Yeah. And as we were talking earlier, David, this is a process that we've been using kind of as our operating system as an organization. It’s really helped to fuel our growth as well. I love the idea and I appreciate, you know, as visionaries, we have, again, great visions and can be inspirational. But in terms of when it comes to the day to day, having another person do the integration work is helpful.
And David, you said in the last couple of years, things have continued to grow for Arrabon. Tell us a little bit about some of the work you're doing as we get into the next section.
David: Yeah. You know, so, like as a ministry, we’re a 501(c)(3), we’re a ministry, and we started back in 2008. And got really in 2020, even to 2021, it’s just been like a heavy amount of social upheaval, division, toxic polarization politically, racially. And basically, it's a time where if you say blank, then that means you’re a white supremacist. If you say blank, then you're a Marxist. And there’s no in-between. If you wear a mask, then you're part of this totality regime. If you don't wear a mask, then you hate your neighbors and you hope that they die. And it's like, it's just, like, crazy, just toxic, zero-sum game type of way. And kind of, we experienced a 300 percent increase in our ministry, like, just kind of calls, activities. Because basically, our posture is that generally, nobody is going to be right. They're not going to be correct 100 percent of the time.
David: And oftentimes, Jesus has called us into some kind of third way, that is both Kingdom that requires both sacrifice and flourishing for all. It requires us to kind of self-examine and confess. And we just try to find a faithful Christian way that’s Kingdom oriented. And so I think because of just that voice that we have, I think folks are like, “I don't like that. I don't like that. And I'm trying to see what I'm really for.” And we're an organization that is really more about what we're for than what we're against.
David: And as a result, we've had a 300 percent increase in activity, and I've been just kind of restructuring the org to support that work.
Al: Yeah. Isn't that great? I'm encouraged to hear that.
And your focus is reconciliation, and I wonder if we’re too shallow in understanding actually that the definition of that term reconciliation. So let's get into that a little bit in this conversation. How is reconciliation different, let's say, just than agreeing with other people. I know there's got to be a difference, but I'd be interested in your perspective.
David: Yeah. So, let's just unpack this a little bit because reconciliation starts off with the acknowledgement that something’s broken.
David: And as Christians, we know that the world is broken, and not just the world in general, but we know that David's broken, and Al’s broken, and as a community, that we're broken. So this is something that shouldn’t take us by surprise. And also, just the simple fact there we’re Christians, as Christians we should realize that on this side of Heaven everything isn't going to make it whole. And we invite it to be part of the reconciling of all things through Jesus Christ. And so when we deal with issues of race, class, culture, we know that it's not all healed. It's not all fixed. It’s all not made right. And the point is that God's inviting us into being part of that healing, that reconciling, reconciliation.
So for us, our term of reconciliation is not even to start in just American narrative. It actually started in the narrative of Genesis 1, that the whole world was good. It was whole. It was beautiful. And then it was broken because of the fall: our relationship with God, with one another, and creation. And so Christ is in the process of reconciling all things. And then eventually, we’ll be to a new Heaven and a new Earth, where the Kingdom of God will come on Earth, the city of God will come on Earth, and we're invited to be an active participant in that process in our churches and our families and our neighborhoods and our businesses. And so that's the thing that, like, as a ministry, we're just trying to equip organizations to be about that work. We say, like, Jesus teaches to preach, Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done on Earth as is in heaven? Well, what your business to be a part of that Kingdom come on Earth as it is in heaven, and let us partner with you to try to have some imagination in what’s possible.
Al: You know, that we're invited to be part of reconciling in Christ that actually Christ and through us, even, as helping to reconcile all things. I love that.
You know, I wanted you back on the podcast because the issues around diversity and inclusion and reconciliation are so important and really involve long-term work. I mean, these are not issues. These are generational issues. It's not going to happen in the short term, but it's really long term. So let's start with some of the key pillars of a reconciling community, what you're talking about. We didn't really have time to go into it too deeply in our last conversation, so what are some of the key pillars that you work with, and how do they fit together?
David: Probably at a time on our podcast, we were using a term like the five pillars of reconciling community. But then, as we were really talking about engaging it, somebody’s like, “Hey, one of these is more important. It's like a foundation to all of them.” So now kind of the new visual that we have is we call the reconciling community house. Any kind of house or any kind of building, you have to have a foundation. And the foundation of a reconciling community is to understand reconciliation as spiritual formation, to understand that, Al, if you and I have a conflict, I can't do, like what my grandma’s generation itself says, put my religion on the shelf and just act like I don't know God and they tune out a Christian brother. You know, it's like the Bible tells me, “Hey, I can call or sit out on you. I can call a short coming out on you.” But God says, before I try to get the speck out of a brother’s house, like I got to get this plank out of my own life. And if you really think about this, self-examination is key to being a Christian, and Hebrews talks about pursue peace with all humans, peace and holiness, without not even seeing the Lord.
And so, I mean, this is something that we have to—I mean, this is kindergarten Christianity. This is fundamental stuff that we are forgetting because if you are on the wrong side of my political view, if you've hurt me racially, if you think about race in a different way than I think about race, if you use certain words, then it means that gives me permission to put my religion on the shelf, and that's just not a biblical thing.
So the thing that we try to do is we try to help Christian institutions, say, put reconciliation as a spiritual formation key practice. And if I was in a secular space, when I'm in a secular space, I say that conflict resolution is a basic human need. If you think about any substantive relationship that you've had, you've had to have some conflict, and you worked through that conflict. And it helps to deepen the relationship. If you had, like with your spouse or whatever, it’s—like, I love my wife deeper, 15 years later, after many ups and downs, of a lot of hurt or pain, a lot of forgiveness. I couldn't imagine myself loving her more than the day I married her. But it's like 15 years later, it's like a deeper relationship, and not because of all the honeymoon stuff. It's because of the ability to work through the reconciliation side of things.
So that's the foundation. Here are the other pillars. It's increasing culture intelligence. We could talk past one another because of culture and because of generation, race, ethnicity, what’s respectful in one culture is not a way of showing respect in another culture, what’s disrespectful in one culture is different in another culture. And so one of the things that we do is we just kind of help people to kind of increase their culture intelligence, the ability to go and navigate in different places. It's kind of like when you go overseas for the first time. You're like, “Oh, it's different than America. But what works in China is different than what works in Mexico and it works different in Europe.” But when you kind of travel overall, you can kind of, okay, I know how to navigate if we got the cultural cues.
The second pillar is understanding diversity narratives, and this just kind of helps you to understand empathy. I don’t have to agree with you or to exercise empathy. I just need to receive your story as how you've experienced it, and I can empathize with the humanity of your story. But as I empathize and I kind of put myself in your shoes and I understand, I get a chance to learn about you and your process.
And so this does the third pillar, which is how to be a better cross-cultural collaborator. See, a lot of times we try to jump in a cross-cultural collaboration, but we don't have this commitment to reconciliation, spiritual formation. We don't increase our cultural intelligence, to talk past one another. We're not committed to work through conflict. And then the third thing, we aren't committed to work through empathy and understanding diversity narratives of people.
And so, actually, if we don’t have those three skill sets and those three skill sets aren’t a part of the culture of your organization, then you actually won’t be a good cross-cultural collaborator, and you end up kind of deflecting it on and saying, like, “Oh, well, maybe that person wasn’t a good fit for the culture.” But you end up, everybody in your organization looks like you, thinks like you. And you actually could work some skill sets to get diversity of thoughts, then it could actually help us to increase our effectiveness efficiency within the mission of our organization.
And then the last thing is, is that we don't just do this just so we can have better conversations. We do this so we can engage in reconciling culture making. We're here today because of a culture that was made yesterday. If we want to see something different tomorrow, we got to create a new culture today. And so that's the thing. And I 100 percent want to encourage Christian business leaders because I really think, particularly in areas of race, race has always been about economics. It was created for that reason. It’s not as much about interpersonal things. And I think entrepreneurs have the ability to think creatively about stuff, have the ability to have creative solutions, and it takes a long time to change policies. It even takes a long time to change people’s hearts. But to change the organization and form institutions that could form people into being a reconciling community and come up with creative solutions entrepreneurially within these Christian work spaces, it's a tremendous amount of opportunity that I think if—and we don't have to pray and wonder does God want to see this happen. We know that God wants to see this happen. The question is, God, what’s my part? What can I do? How can my company be a part of that? And I think that's what's exciting about engaging in this work to see what God does with that type of faith and that type of desire and that type of openness to be used by God.
Al: Well, David, this is interesting. Just looking through the foundation in a reconciliation. And the way you've tied it in with our spiritual disciplines and discipleship, I mean, it is an important way for us to grow in our faith and grow in much more than just our faith in our life broadly. Yeah. Cultural intelligence, empathy by understanding diversity narratives. I've enjoyed over the last year reading and listening to some books with diverse authors and understanding a little bit of what the country has gone through in our history. That's been fascinating. Also, cross-cultural collaboration. And then just let's be part of culture making. I mean, so frequently we hear Christians really aren't at the forefront of making culture. We're just responding to what the secular world is creating. So let's engage in culture making, and, you know, understanding what our part is. Each of us has a part. I love the way you kind of focus, What's my part? Yeah. So yeah, leaders, let's think about what's our part in this? And these are just really great concepts for us to grasp and even live out as leaders.
So, Arrabon has been training in this area of reconciling communities. Share a couple of examples. You know, leaders are always looking for examples of how organizations that you've worked with are implementing new practices and moving towards reconciliation.
David: Yeah. I think about a couple of stories that come to mind. One is think about a church where I was the first person ever preaching, the first African-American preaching in this church, and this church is just 150 years.
David: And then after, I didn't know this until years later, but afterwards it was a church that had like a greeting line. I'm in the back. They have a greeting line, and they go up to talk to the pastor. The pastor’s like, “Hey, we're going to be a church that is going to allow a black person to be in this church, to preach in this church?” And it was such a surprise that in whatever it was, 2000 and whatever, this was still a thing. Because we were working with this organization, not like off like an event, but just part of a process, they kind of weeded out the people who were just like, we're just not going to be a part of this work. It made them uncomfortable to stay there and stay the same. But then it also helped to convert people who didn't realize they had these kind of biases within their own, either like straight-up racism or racial biases that they didn’t even know they had in their own hearts. It basically set an atmosphere for people to be able, for their sin to be revealed, but then maybe for their sin to be confessed and healed. And then if folks just weren't just going to be unrepentant, then they could just move on, and you didn't have to do a showdown on it. Like, it was a thing.
What's really great, about maybe four or five years later, the church became a lot more missional in its process, and it connected with the other—like, literally, the church was kind of like across the street that was the African-American church in the community, they started doing a collaboration together. So they started off by doing Advent and Lent devotionals together and writing those things together, developed some deep friendships in the process. But then when COVID hit, they were ready to go. They did some work with COVID and all that stuff, and they worked together to kind of help feed people in their community. And this is a black church and a white church doing this work together.
When I think about business, I remember doing another workshop, and later on, this organization started to—they thought about their hiring practices in a very different way. They were able to pay attention to their biases that they had within. We all have biases. We just aren't conscious of those biases. And so they lost sort of put that in a way that was able to think through and they really thought through their processes and was able to kind of hire some people that they wouldn't have normally hired because they didn’t speak their same cultural language. They spoke English, but, like, the kind of nuances. And so they were able, sometimes like the way somebody will hear a question is different than the way the person is trying to ask it, and it kind of missing each other. And so it's really, they were able to do some really great hires because they were able to kind of understand about biases and manage their biases in their way of hiring.
So these are just some of the great things that, I mean, people just change over a period of time, you know, which is great.
Al: I trust you’re enjoying our podcast today. We’ll be right back after an important word for leaders.
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Al: And now, back to today’s special guest.
Yeah, that’s fascinating. And you’ve also worked with some nonprofits, have you, David?
Al: Do you have a nonprofit example that comes to mind?
David: Yeah. So I mean, I think of another nonprofit that—so what happened when they started, let's just say, 40 to 50 years ago, this organization were working with teens, and the majority of the teens were white and wealthy. Well, because of 48 percent of Gen Z’s are coming from communities of color, the kindergarten class right now, the white kid in the kindergarten class, he’s the rich and the minority. So what happened was their ministry context changed, the demographic changed, and they had cultural norms and systems that worked well for white people. And one folk might say, okay, like, kids are kids. There's isn’t such thing as like a white culture. Well, let me just say, like at the black teens thing, they're not playing cornhole and golf, you know? Those are just culturally different type of activity. And like, you might be like spades and basketball, right? Like, those might be some of those like cultural things. And then, you know, if it was like a Hispanic community, it’d be something very different.
And so they knew at the time that they had more. They had a really great mission. They knew that the schools that they working with, the demographic was changing. And actually, the secular school’s demographic was changing faster than the actual Christian ministry was. And they said, “Hey, we need to know what we don't know, and we need to figure out how to integrate this within our mission, vision, and values of the organization.”
Well, we worked with them for about a year, some set shared knowledge, some shared language, some shared vision. And then they formed these different committees that could oversee the different five areas of their nonprofit work. And then they have literally are implementing these practices that are engaged. And what was awesome was we were working with them before 2020. So then when 2020 happened and we had all of this social upheaval, they were ready to be able to respond. And the pastor could when they actually built trust with a lot of people because they managed crisis well. And so, you know, one of the things you want to do is you want to prepare and be prepared for crises, and you don't want to waste a good crisis, right? And so that's what they have done, and they have been on this sustaining journey, implementing and integrating all this and all of their organization.
Al: Oh, that's a great story. Yeah.
So, here at the Best Christian Workplaces Institute, we think that Christian organizations, churches, Christian-led businesses should really lead the way in excellence, and the body of Christ should be the very best the world sees. In fact, should be attractive to others. But sometimes we fall short of that. What would you say to a leader who sees the need for reconciliation but is really struggling with the next steps? You know, how do we actually implement it, is often the question in the organization. What would you say?
David: The one thing I would really encourage folks to understand is that excellence doesn't happen on accident. Every great elite athlete—Michael Jordan, LeBron James, Kobe Bryant, Serena Williams, Tiger Woods, a man that went from Tom Brady—they all had a coach. And not only did they just have like a coach for their overall organization or what they were doing sports wise, they had a conditioning coach, a strength coach. Hey, here's a weakness part of my game, so let me strengthen that piece up. And that's the thing, that it's important, I think, when you say, “Hey, I want this to be part of this organization,” you got to have a coach. You got to have somebody that can kind of help you to figure out what is it that you want to do to get clarity about. What's reasonable for our organization? What's the thing? And also, what's the thing like the invitation of faithfulness for our organization? And then the next step is to figure out, okay, what's our next step as we learn to try to get to a shared knowledge, language, vision, and we develop a strategy, what's our next step of faithfulness to engage in?
And so that's the thing that we want to encourage people to do is to try to find somebody who can help you to know how to integrate this within the work that you're doing. And then the next level is to try to discern what's that next step of faithfulness. We overestimate what we can do through a tweet or through social media. We overestimate what we can do in a year. We underestimate what we can do by walking faithfully in the same direction over 10 years. And like you said earlier today, I heard you say this is a generational problem.
David: So we've got to have generational thinking in our approach. And if we could just find our little piece and try to be faithful over a long period of time to see what God does, that's the part I would encourage people.
Al: Yeah. And as you say, this is a process, that we're on a journey. And oftentimes, it does take generations. It's not a one-time fix. But sometimes it gets more or less attention depending on what's happening in the news. And you made a reference to 2020, and there was a lot of news going on. So how can leaders maintain momentum and growth towards reconciliation?
David: Yeah. I mean, I think to me, it's really more about value, which are values. So, for example, I just don't only read the Bible when I am in crisis. I definitely read the Bible in a crisis.
David: But it's like I'm just trying to be faithful, you know. And so I think that this is a really key element. I think that engaging in conflict in a distinctly Christian way—blessed are the peacemakers, so they should be called the children of God. But these are some, like people know that they're Christians by the way that we show love for one another. So to me, these are very fundamental, kindergarten-level Christianity stuff that we need to grow into our foundations. And so what happens is crisis, a lot of times, can kind of remind you and say, like, Oh, maybe I wasn't paying attention to this, and I should pay attention to this. When that is—like God has our attention or people have our attention in this area, now it's like, hey, how can we just kind of put this in to be part of our habits, our way of forming, our way of engaging as faithful Christians? So then when the “next crisis” comes, and let's make no unequivocal understandings about this, the media is not trying to do the work of reconciliation. They're trying to do the work of getting more clicks and more views.
Al: Right, right.
David: So they’re going to put gasoline on the problem, no matter what, right? And it doesn't matter if you like the right media or the left media. Media is media, and it's a business. They don't have the same agenda as the Kingdom of God. And so as Christians, in order for us not to be kind of being tossed to and fro by everyone a doctrine, what we can do is kind of dig into the maturity and the work of leaning into the Lord, leaning into the Kingdom of God, having these different practices. So then when the next crisis comes, when the media sees an opportunity to kind of get more clicks and to get more revenue ads, we could just keep on doing the faithful thing of blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called children of God, showing the love, seeing the unity in diversity, partner with Christ in the reconciling of all things.
Al: Yeah. Leaning into the work of reconciliation, core basics of the faith. That's a great perspective.
And as you personally live out the long process of change, how do you keep from being discouraged? You know, are there some practices or habits, you've mentioned a couple already, but are there practices or habits that you can share that keep you going strong in your work?
David: Yeah. I mean, one of it is, man, I don't watch the news. I don't spend time on social—I don’t even spend time even on like a lot of personal social media. I mean, I think by the nature of our work, I got some people on the team that kind of help to manage a lot of that stuff. But I just find that it's not good for my soul. I just find that I'm a little more pessimistic. I'm a little more overwhelmed, discouraged. And I wouldn't have known that if I didn't fast from it. So I would encourage any brother or sister to do a 40-day fast on news and any kind of social-media thing, and see what happens. Like, see—like, pay attention to your soul. And a lot of times when you fast for something, it's good to kind of like spend, maybe go for a walk or spend some more time listening to scripture or reading a book or spending time with your family, and just see the quality of life that would go up. And so that's one of the areas for me is that I just don't know everything that's happened with Kim Kardashian or the latest president, you know?
David: And so my quiet life is way better now, I promise you that.
I also am not like—folks say, “Well, how do you stay informed about stuff?” People talk about things in conversations and then what you could do is you can actually read a long-form article or a couple of articles from different perspectives and get all the information you need to know and move on. So that's one practice of mine.
I think another one is, is that I try to remind myself that the work didn't begin with me; the work doesn’t end with me. I'm just supposed to do my part. I don't know if you all do Enneagram stuff, but I'm a three on the Enneagram. So I have to like—my biggest area of sin violation is Sabbathing. And so I've like, you know, I just been wrestling with the Lord, trying to build muscles in that way to just kind of be more faithful and stopping from work and taking care of myself, because this work’s important, you know? You can just feel—and particularly I do work, but it doesn’t feel like work to me.
David: And so I'm really blessed. Somebody said this, but I don't have a “got to do” job; I got a “get to do” job. And so, I mean, it's just, I found my “get to do” job, but I still have to—Sabbathing is on God's top 10. And so God is like, “David you do well on the not murdering and adultery and stealing. But I think the Sabbath day is another big part of that.: So that's been a really key piece with me.
Al: Yep. Well, I love that. Yeah. And you mentioned when it comes to the news it’s so fear focused that it just kind of—
Al: —bring up the anxiety. And yeah, I’m an Enneagram three myself, and so having Sabbath, having rest, if we hope to accomplish something, we have to be strong enough to do it.
Al: So building ourselves up, that's important. Yeah.
Well, David, we've learned so much in this conversation. I really appreciate it. You know, and it really goes back to the importance of reconciliation and how that is a practice that we should all be strengthening our muscles in as we go forward in the body of Christ and how it's really the foundation. The foundation is that reconciliation is part of our own discipleship. It's in a recent podcast. we've even talked about how it's part of engagement, being able to reconcile with one another so that we can be engaged in the workplace effectively with one another. I love your key pillars, including cultural intelligence and understanding diversity narratives and having empathy with that. Cross-cultural collaboration, it’s being sure that we engage reconciliation and actually become culture makers and in a positive sense, for sure. And then, finally, excellence isn't an accident. And the coaching, every excellent athlete, every excellent, I think, leader has coaches and maybe many coaches, as you pointed out. So let's have a reconciliation coach on our team, somebody that can help us with that and see with perhaps different eyes and in a new way. Also, I love the practices, you know. Let's not have fear so close to us in the sense of that's what's behind so much of the news, and your idea of a 40-day fast. And then also to be faithful with Sabbath in a sense of fast as a Sabbath from that kind of fear-generating prospect.
Well, if listeners want to learn more, they can find you at arrabon.com. But let me just ask, then, one more thing. What would you like to add that we haven't talked about yet, David?
David: You know, as I was hearing you just kind of kind of recap our conversation, I think the big thing that I would encourage folks to do is try to find your thing to garden. Like, this kind of goes back to Genesis 2, where the first thing that God did for humanity, the first assignment was gave humanity a garden to attend. And I think that that's like a thing that we're called to. It was already a garden. It was already good. And we're called to cultivate and maintain goodness. And so I think to look at that and what Arrabon, what we do with Christian organizations is we help folks enjoy the sermon, what's their area to garden, you know? Your area to garden is different than my area to garden, and our listeners’ area to garden is different than our areas of the garden. But if we're all cultivating this gardening, building these reconciling communities, then our world will be changed and transformed.
And so we should be having a new website coming out. You know how these things work with web developers and websites. If it's a blue and white website, it’s an older website. If you see a more colorful website, that's the newer website. But I would encourage, like, we have a lot of resources for Christian organizations to see ways that they can figure out how to discern their area of garden and they have the tools to cultivate. And then if you’re a Christian business, if you’re a business, are you a Christian that runs a business? There's other options that we can have on that way.
So, thanks a ton, and just glad to be here with you all again.
Al: Yeah. Thanks, David. And yeah, I love the resources and tools for reconciliation. I think we all need that. So thanks for pointing us to arrabon.com.
David Bailey, executive director of Arrabon, I want to thank you for your contributions today and, most of all, for your devotion to service to our loving God so that we can all be reconcilers. And you've helped us equip leaders to grow in this reconciling area. So thanks for your time and especially the time out of your day to day, speaking into the lives of so many listeners. Thank you, David.
David: Anytime. Thanks for having me.
Al: And please don't forget to participate in our podcast survey. Please go to bcwinstitute.org/contentsurvey. I appreciate your feedback. Thank you.
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