Transcript: 4 Reasons Christian Leaders Should Build Biblically Faithful and Welcoming Cultures // David Bailey, Arrabon

Flourishing Culture Leadership Podcast

“4 Reasons Christian Leaders Should Build Biblically Faithful and Welcoming Cultures“

April 28, 2025

David Bailey

Intro: As Christian leaders of teams and organizations, what is our ongoing responsibility when it comes to racial unity in the workplace? Well, in this episode David Bailey of Arrabon challenges us to see reconciliation not as a side project, but as a core to our discipleship and leadership. He shares a biblically grounded vision for unity, practical tools for forming reconciling communities, and a call to courageous leadership in a divided world. And if you're ready to lead in both grace and truth, this is a conversation you won't want to miss.

Welcome: Welcome to the Flourishing Culture Leadership Podcast, your home for open, honest, and insightful conversations to help develop your leadership, your team, and build a flourishing workplace culture.

Al Lopus: Hi, I’m Al Lopus, the co-founder of the Best Christian Workplaces and author of Road to Flourishing, the go-to research-based, Christ-centered guide to building a flourishing workplace culture. My passion is to equip Christian leaders like you to create engaged, flourishing workplaces, where people thrive and organizations make a significant Kingdom impact. If you'd like to learn more about my book, opportunities to have me speak, this podcast, or recent articles I've written, I encourage you to visit allopus.org. That’s A-L-L-O-P-U-S—dot org. Let’s journey together toward building workplaces where your faith, leadership, and organizations flourish.

I’m delighted to welcome David Bailey to the podcast today. David's the founder and CEO of Arrabon, an organization committed to equipping Christian communities to pursue healing and reconciliation in a racially divided world.

Throughout our podcast, you'll hear David share about number one, the biblical vision for unity. We gain a deeper understanding of how Scripture, from Genesis to Revelation, cause leaders to pursue reconciliation, belonging, and justice as central to the Gospel and organizational culture. Second, practical tools for building reconciling communities. We’ll learn how to move beyond performative diversity efforts by cultivating spiritual-formation practices that shape hearts and organizational systems. And third, the courage to lead with truth and grace. Be inspired to lead with integrity in challenging conversations around race, culture, and belonging, grounded in a Kingdom-first mindset that reflects Christ's love and humility.

I think you're going to love this interview with David Bailey, especially in these times. But before we dive in, this podcast is proudly sponsored by the Best Christian Workplaces’ Employee Engagement Survey, the largest, most-trusted employee-engagement tool for faith-based organizations. With thousands of leaders already using our platform, each new participant strengthens the growing network committed to flourishing workplace cultures. Be sure to join.

What makes this unique? Well, we're the only research-based, biblically-grounded engagement survey designed specifically for Christian-led organizations, providing insight and transformation through a Kingdom lens. Don't wait. Now is the ideal time to gather actionable feedback from your team to begin building a healthier, Christ-centered workplace. Visit workplaces.org to learn more to start your journey to flourishing today.

And hello to our new listeners. Thanks for joining us as we honor your investment of time by creating valuable episodes like this one.

And let me tell you just a little bit more about David Bailey. As I mentioned, David's the founder and CEO of Arrabon, and this ministry helps communities practice biblical reconciliation and Kingdom building as a way to heal racial divisions, building reconciling communities and organizations that reflect the love of God in practice. They do this through resources that include curriculum, worship offerings, and organizational change guides. David's a public theologian, a culture maker, a catalyst focused on building reconciling communities. He's also a musician, a worship leader, and he's co-authored and produced many of the resources the Arrabon team uses in its work. I've had the opportunity to meet David several times at places like Murdock's Leadership Now conference.

So, here’s my conversation with David Bailey.

David, it’s great to have you back on the podcast. Thanks for joining me.

David Bailey: I’m glad to be here. Thank you so much for the invitation, my brother.

Al: I’m really looking forward to our conversation. We’ve talked over these points in the last couple of years, and I feel like the landscape has changed since our last conversation, and I just wanted to come back and say the Scripture hasn't changed about how we work with each other, but the landscape has. So how would you describe the current shift in the public attitudes towards diversity, equity, and inclusion? And I'm really curious, at Arrabon, the organization that you serve, how has that changed your work?

David: You know, so Arrabon is a spiritual-formation ministry that equips Christ followers to actively and creatively pursue racial healing in their communities. And so we see ourselves as a spiritual-formation ministry first. We understand that the practice of reconciliation is spiritual formation. So brother, if you and I ever have a conflict, how we engage in that conflict is not about, is David right or is Al right? It's really about, how do we honor one another, and how do we position ourselves to be transformed by God? And then, because we live in the United States context, racial brokenness is a significant factor that has shaped and engaged our world, you know, the world that we've inherited. And so ignoring it doesn't help it to heal. As the people of God, we're called to see what's broken and to partner with Christ in the reconciling of all things.

So, for us at Arrabon, we've never really embraced the idea or the categories of DEI or anti-racism. We didn't necessarily denigrate it, nor do we embrace it as our own identity. Our categorizing is really around forming reconciling communities. People form communities, and communities form people. Christian communities ought to be forming people into being a reconciling community. And so no matter what the subject is, whether it is politics, whether it is race, whether it is some kind of philosophy, as a Christian, we are supposed to be a community of peacemakers, a community of reconcilers. That is the work that we are called to do and help the body of Christ to engage in.

So, to answer your question, how would I describe the shift in the public attitude towards DEI? it's very interesting because a lot of times people can use language and change language to say whatever it is they want to say. And right now, DEI has become this catch-all thing that’s just added a ton of meaning to it, that—I mean, the words are diversity, equity, inclusion.

And so, should Christians be against diversity? I mean it depends on what it is that we're called to do, but, like, all people are made in the image of God. It's a diverse amount of people made in the image of God. Diversity is actually, like, in Genesis. You know, Genesis 1. Diversity’s in Revelation 7 and Revelation 22 and 21. So diversity is all in the Bible. The tribes are diverse. The disciples are diverse. You know, we can keep on going. The testimonies of Scripture—there's 66 books in the Bible, but it's speaking one message to glorify God.

Equity, meaning that people have the ability to engage and access to do something, make something in the world. And the Bible knows, I mean, when you read the Scriptures, from Genesis 3, once the fall happens, we see inequity all throughout Scriptures, and we see that there's a lot of unfairness. And the people of God are called to be people that help to set things right and fair, to give access that everybody can have access to what God has called all of us to participate in.

And then, third, inclusion, right? To make sure that folks just aren't in the room, but, like, all parts of the body are being utilized and engaged. There are some parts, in 1 Corinthians 12, it talks about there's some parts of the body that receives a lot of honor, and there's others that receive dishonor. But we're all to be flourishing and be included for the flourishing of community.

And so, are there some aspects of diversity, are there some aspects of equity, are there some aspects of inclusion that we should, as Christians, we maybe need to discern? Yeah. But we shouldn’t have a full, blanket disregard to that idea.

And there’s also one last thing that has changed the attitudes in this executive order that was a significant part of what’s changed the attitudes. It also included accessibility. And so it was DEIA, and that A stands for accessibility. So that's, like, educating people and trying to help folks who or dealing with some kind of disability to make sure it's accessible to them.

That's what those four words mean. And so what has happened in recent times is that these words, the initials have become DEIA, and it's been associated a lot of political meaning to really manipulate people, to not really tell whole truths about what this is going on and what's happening, and then, to maybe amplify—of course, there's bad cases of situations, and of course, there are people who have, you know, there are some things that need to be corrected, but there's just been a significant amount of bearing false witness around this particular subject that I think as Christian leaders we should really try to be sober-minded and biblically rooted in how we engage in this.

Al: Sober-minded and biblically rooted, so, let’s talk about that. What is our grounding point, and maybe we just, what's our scriptural basis, David? And again, you know, as you work on reconciliation, but also spiritual formation, so tell us a little bit about the scriptural foundation. You mentioned the Imago Dei matter. Give us a foundation for us.

David: Yeah. Well, in Genesis 1:26-28, this is at the peak of God creating a world that once had disorder and put it into order. And putting things into order the way that God did in creation wasn't homogenous. It actually was diverse. And the peak of the creation narrative is when God created man and woman as the unity and diversity of male and female that reflects the image of Christ. And so we see unity and diversity for the glory of God from Genesis 1 all the way to Revelation 22, where even in the Tree of Life, this all is the leaves, and there's so much diversity that’s going on, and it's for the healing of the nations. And so as the people of God, like, our conversation around diversity does not start with any kind of Left or Right, political or philosophical ideology. It literally starts in the Scriptures. And as the people of God, we should be people that care about shalom, the right ordering of things, that justice, equal scales, equal opportunity for people to engage.

And then, I mean, just to make sure that people are included because as Christians, we see each other as gifts. Like, I receive you, brother, as a gift, and you should receive me as a gift, and we're a gift to each other. And there are strengths that we bring to this conversation or strengths that we bring to each other, and there’s limitations that we bring to each another. And so even, like, the Bible doesn't paint a picture of independence, which is so American. The Bible paints a picture—and it doesn't, also, paint a picture of co-dependence or a total dependence. It's actually an interdependent nature that the Bible paints a picture of. And so as the people of God, we can't go into the self-sufficient narrative because we need to be dependent on one another. We need to be people that include one another because we actually need each other. And so that's where this whole conversation should start for the Christian.

For the people who don't follow Jesus, they could take whatever Left political, philosophical idea they want to take and do what they do. For the people that are secular and aren't Jesus followers, they could take whatever Right political, secular idea that they want to do. But for the Christian, we just can’t take something, these secular philosophies, find a Bible verse that support our ideas, and then just try to move on as if it's Christian. True Christian identity requires us to, like, do something that calls to love God and love our neighbor and love our enemies in a sacrificial way.

Al: You know, at Best Christian Workplaces, we're all about listening and listening to employees and aligning, having everybody aligned to an organization's mission and vision. And so, oftentimes, that means that we have to listen to stories of others. And that is true, also, in your work. So, give us some biblical examples of, or principles, maybe, that guide us toward listening to the stories and histories of others, especially those different from ourselves, so that we can learn and be able to be in a reconciled relationship with one another.

David: Understanding our stories and how we arrived in our history is so important to, one, making sense of today, and then, even building on a future, right? It's so important to understand, how did we get here, and who are you? It’s not just about what Al and David did in our own space. I mean, we have parents. There's a community we come from. There's a wider story that we're a part of.

And we see this all throughout Scripture. I mean, you see throughout Scripture, they are referring back to the patriarchs of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. And that story means a lot, right? And then, even the Jewish folks were formed in Egypt. They became a great nation in Egypt. And it was not when they were at the peak of the empire, when they were a big family with Joseph, during that time of the famine. It was when a pharaoh did not know Joseph, and that insecure public official started to change the immigration policies on the immigrant people called the Jewish Hebrew people. They were a great nation at that time, but they were experiencing a lot of oppression. And God came and delivered them. And, God said, hey, remember your story. Remember the story. Remember how I showed up.

And so, it's so important that we understand our histories, both the good and the bad. And one of the things that's very unfortunate about our American culture is since the 1950s, and we've lived in such a significantly prosperous context, that we now as Americans feel like if something feels bad, then it must be bad. We should have harvest time all the time. Things should feel good all the time. We don't even have funerals anymore. We have celebrations of life. So we don't engage in negative feelings. And so, then, when we look at our history, anything that—we talk about our history, that it's sinful or broken, or it doesn't look like it's prosperous or shown in the best light, then that's considered unpatriotic or we shouldn't talk about it. But, no, that's, like, the human experience. Like, if you look at the Old Testament, the Old Testament is gnarly, with a lot of bad stuff in it, and it's important for us to remember that story and our history.

So, you know, we need to learn each other's history and stories just so we can understand each other better, but then, also, so that we can actually understand our moments and learn as a community, because God cares about history, and God wants God's people to know about history.

Al: Exactly. I love what you're saying. And so let's go a little further and understand, how does the understanding of the history of people groups equip Christian leaders? So again, I'm thinking of workplace situations. We have diverse people, different people in our workplaces. How does understanding the history of these groups help us to reconcile and build workplaces that reflect the Kingdom of God, which I believe all Christian workplaces have the desire and want to do.

David: So, one of the things that’s important to understand is that all humans aren't the same. All people groups aren't the same. At the same time, we're not 100% independent, right? Like, culture has a way of rubbing off on us. And, you know, I'm from Richmond, Virginia. You're in the Seattle area. There are cultural things. There are things that are unique to us, and there's some things that are, like, cultural to where we live, where we work, where we've been raised. And so it's just really helpful to understand this.

And so let's say, for example, there was an opportunity where you had 100 people who potentially could be eligible to be leaders: 25% are white, 25% are black, 25% are Asian American, 25% are Latino American. And you say, “Hey, anybody who wants to be a leader, raise your hand, and we'll appoint you to be a leader.” Well, at that moment, we unconsciously engaged in unintended consequences around how we solicited leadership. People who have a more egalitarian way of engaging in leadership and folks who are encouraged to kind of go for it, they'll raise their hand. People who come from more of a hierarchical honor culture, it seems kind of arrogant to raise your hand and say, “Hey, I want to be a leader.” You wait until there's a leader that approaches you and says, “Hey. You know, I think that you'll be great for leadership.”

Now, is there one way that's right or one way is wrong morally? No. It's culturally. And so if you don't know that story and that history, when you try that methodology, you engage in that type of methodology, then there will only be a certain amount of demographic of people that will end up being the leaders in that community. And so this has nothing to do with ill intent. This just has everything to do with a lack of knowledge and a lack of understanding people's stories and histories and cultural backgrounds, and that's really key to be able to have a flourishing community.

Al: Yeah. And we have to continue to learn, don't we, about the differences in the people groups. I mean, you mentioned just two things right there: egalitarian versus honor-based. And the different approaches and, then, the outcomes that would be, you know, okay, so if you come from an egalitarian approach, well, that's going to have one outcome; or if you come from a honor-based culture, that would have a different outcome. And without understanding the differences, then, you wouldn't understand it. Yeah.

So, as I think about what you're saying, I'm afraid that leaders will consider that they really need to just drop this idea of diversity, equity, and inclusion for fear, or it's better to be silent. But, you know, I appreciate what you are saying here is, I mean, again, these words in themselves are very much related to our own spiritual formation. So, you know, what does courageous, humble leadership look like in Christian workplaces as we continue to look at this from a Kingdom perspective and address it going forward?

David: I think it's really important that we understand that for the Christian, this is all about discipleship. This is about formation. This is about who we're becoming. And do we really believe that all people are made in the image of God? If we really believe that, then we should be eager and curious to understand how God—like, what’s the aspect of God that's inside of somebody in this really unique way that I get a chance to learn about? Like, if you and I are doing Scripture study together, our age, our experience, our culture, like, so much is going to be brought out that we wouldn't look at the Scripture in the same exact way with the same exact lens. And then you bring a woman into this conversation, she's going to see stuff that you and I can't see. And this is what the flourishing of the body of Christ, God designed it this way.

So, one of the things I would really encourage Christian leaders to do is, unfortunately, so many Christian leaders are being discipled by the screens in a secular political ideology. And I don't care if it's on the Left or it's on the Right: neither one is going to be fully immersed into the Kingdom of God. And I know that people who are very partisan are, like, “Yes, my party does align with the...“ No, it doesn't. It doesn't. If that was the case, then Jesus wouldn't need to come and die on the cross for us, and all He had to do was just wait until 2025 for us to vote the right way.

What we need to understand is that we should not root our understanding of DEIA into any type of political ideology or the latest, hottest topic, but it needs to be in the actual Scriptures. And to make sure that we are reading the Scriptures not through a partisan political lens but really allow the Scriptures to interrogate our partisan political biases. And as we, then, work as leaders, that we do the hard work to say, like, “Hey, this is what I see Scripture is saying and doing,” and we lean into this and say, “God, how do I do this? And how do we cultivate a reconciling community where every tribe, every tongue, every language could be a part and be, like, we could experience a diversity that's appropriate for what You're calling us to do, that we can, you know, be a people that are equitable in how we engage, that we can be a people that include folks, and aren't being biased in unhelpful ways, and that we would give accessibility to people who, for various reasons, have limitations, but they still should be a part of our community? And how do we do this, God?” You see that all throughout Genesis through Revelation, and there's plenty of work that we can lean into in our Christian workplaces.

Al: I think about Joni and Friends, one of our ministry partners for 20 years, and how accessibility is such a key issue for those with special needs and handicaps that are really important. Again, the Scripture encourages us to include everybody in that, bringing them to the Kingdom. Yeah.

Davie: Could I even just even share, like, statistically, one out of 25 people have some level of disability. And then, I believe it's people 60 and above, about 40% have some levels of disability because of aging. And so, you know, that's a significant amount of folks that we need to be considering about. And for those people who have full mobility now, we need to be thinking about these things for our brothers and sisters who might not have that same type of accessibility.

Al: I really appreciate what you're saying. Every tribe, every tongue, every language, and to bring us together in a reconciled and reconciling community, where we're all growing in our faith. And you mentioned letting Scripture work on us, you know, let the Holy Spirit, as we read Scripture, so how is that forming our proper opinions and then relationships with others? Yeah.

So, David, let me ask you, to get practical here, for a bit, what are some practical steps that Christian workplaces can take to create biblically faithful and welcoming cultures to a diverse population?

David: Well, one of the things I would encourage leaders to do, and I can't get away from this, is to ask the Holy Spirit to open your eyes up to see the diversity in the body of Christ. Ask God to give you a heart for the Imago Dei. We are in a time now where people are getting more and more callous and mean-spirited, and not just only, like, the stuff that we're saying about our neighbors that think philosophically, politically different than us, but then even, like, the things that we're saying about people who are our enemies, and it's the job of the Christians to love your neighbor, to love your family, and to love your enemies. And so that is something that we really need to be immersed into the Word of God, to allow God to renew our minds and renew our hearts and to orient towards in that space because as leaders, if we feel like if somebody disagrees with me or somebody that I don't like, I could verbally be off with them, you know, or I can pick up some of these nasty habits that are happening in our political realm. And I'm not speaking about one particular person. It's back and forth. It's what-a-bad-ism. That's not Christian, bro. That's just not Christian, at all. And I think it's so sad that so many people who are saying they're followers of Jesus are giving themselves permission to engage in this work. So, I would just particularly start in a formation in that space.

And then, some other practical things is just because the government says it's illegal now to engage in this work, theoretically, I mean these are executive orders and things of that nature, but the big idea is that there's an initiative to kind of make this something that's bad to do. And we, out of Christian conviction, should spend time hearing the stories of how God has been at work in different people's lives and different people groups' stories and history. And we should learn about each other so that we can create environments where each other can flourish because we're loving our neighbor as ourselves, because we are loving our Christian brother and sister, because we learning how to love our enemy. And so the more information that we can have on top of this formation that we've already been doing, it helps us to get a better shot of trying to love neighbor as ourselves and to do the thing that Jesus said is the greatest commandment.

Al: Yeah. And as I've talked with people, proximity is important. So going, being with people that are different, listening to their stories is a key part. I'm part of a ministry that is in rural Guatemala, in the Ixil area, where they were targeted in a civil war and very different. And then, I go to a church with a large Korean community and to have myself with a group of Koreans, and then, also, in proximity with indigenous Mayan people in a whole different world. And in listening to each other, learning from each other, and then growing together in our faith, I just see that as really being an enriching experience. So being open to those kinds of experiences, where we're in proximity together, where we're learning about one another and why it is that we might feel the way we do, and then, what do we do about it, so as brothers and sisters. Yeah.

So, thanks for those practical steps. Certainly, listen to the Holy Spirit, and then, politically, let's not listen to saying, “This is bad to do,” but let's now do the hard work, learning about one another, reconciling, and relationships.

So, for a leader who feels a little overwhelmed, maybe, or unsure of how to move forward, what's one small, faithful step that you can take to lead well in this complex moment that we're in?

David: I think that the thing that a Christian leader can do and should do is to be discerning. About 40 years ago, there was a guy named Neil Postman, who wrote a book called Amusing Ourselves to Death. And he was just really scared and concerned about the role that television screens were doing in forming and shaping people's imagination and how they think. And he was sounding the alarms 40 years ago. When you read this book that was written in 1985, you would have thought that he's talking about the internet and social media and AI and all that stuff now and algorithms. But 40 years ago, he was very, very concerned about this.

Screens are formational. And so it's hard for us to be discerning when we're glued to our screens. So I would want to encourage you to fast from the screens and fast from the media, and actually spend some time reading. Read Scriptures around the subject, and then, particularly read some actual histories of people groups that you don't know of, that you aren't familiar with. A lot of folks are really concerned about some of the sociological analysis and things of that nature. So if you're concerned about that, don't read it. Just read some actual history books. Like, understand how we get here. Learn about some people groups that you didn't know anything about, and get a proximity with some different people that are different than you. And just, like, as you're on this journey, begin to implement some things into how you show up at work and the way that you lead at work.

Al: Well, David, this has been a fascinating conversation, one that we probably could go on for a long time. But as I think back, going back to, what is all of this? to start with, it’s really your approach is, this is spiritual formation; it’s reconciliation; it’s what the Bible calls us to do. We can't ignore it as believers, as leaders in the Kingdom. In fact, you caused me to think about, “Blessed are the peacemakers.” Somebody said that, didn't they? Right.

David: A guy named Jesus.

Al: “Blessed are the peace makers.” And then, you kind of helped us to relook at some of these words, you know, diversity, equity, inclusion, accessibility, and what do they really mean, not what they've been taken out of context. And then, you know, the scriptural basis from Genesis 1 to Revelation 22, and what God has designed and intended for us as a body of believers, as human beings, really, on a broader basis. And then, how we need to understand, learn the stories of different groups so that we can understand our histories. And as you pointed out in the Bible, well, you know, there's a lot of bad behavior, maybe is a better way to describe it, in the Old Testament, even in the New Testament. And let's not gloss over the fact that, yeah, this is the human experience, but to learn from one another. And, again, to encourage leaders not to take a secular political ideology, but to really dig deep into the Scriptures and know what the bases are. And then you gave us a couple of practical steps and encouraged us to be discerning and understand the truth from the lie. And of course, that's not easy to do if we're tied to screens and that we're just flooded with non-scriptural formation. So yeah, give ourselves a little bit of a fast from the screens.

Well, David, this has been a fascinating conversation. Give us a bottom line that we can take away from our conversation today.

David: “Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called the children of God.” If Christians are known more for being cultural warriors than we are known for being people who make peace in the middle of conflict, then we have to ask ourselves, are we really following God? And one of the signs of identifying the children of God are those who make peace.

Al: Those that are united in the body of Christ, as Jesus prayed in John 17, that without Him we would have unity, and that requires us to be together and love one another. No question.

Well, David, this has just been a great conversation. Thanks so much for all you've contributed to the conversation, the great work that you're doing at Arrabon, how you're building reconciliation by actually helping people with their spiritual formation, which is discipleship and something we should all be concerned with. So thanks very much.

David: Thank you, brother.

Al: Thank you so much for listening to my conversation with David Bailey. I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did.

You can find ways to connect with him and links to everything we discussed in the show notes and transcript at workplaces.org/podcast.

And if you have any questions for me about our podcast or have any questions on flourishing workplace cultures, please email me, al@workplaces.org.

As you've heard today, building a culture of belonging starts with a commitment of truth, grace, and spiritual formation. And if you’re ready to create a workplace where reconciliation is more than a buzzword or where your team reflects the unity of Christ's body, well, take the first step by assessing your culture. Visit workplaces.org to learn how the Best Christian Workplaces’ Employee Engagement Survey can help you build a flourishing Christ-centered organization. Let's lead with courage, compassion, and Kingdom purpose in our organizations.

And finally, keep listening to our weekly podcast as we continue to learn from leaders who are proven inspirational leaders exhibiting Christian character and excellence in their leadership. Join me next week as we talk with Dr. Nicole Martin about leadership that includes surrender and suffering.

Outro: The Flourishing Culture Leadership Podcast is sponsored by Best Christian Workplaces. If you need support building a flourishing workplace culture, please visit workplaces.org for more information.

We'll see you again next week for more valuable content to help you develop strong leaders and build a flourishing workplace culture.