Transcript: Why Healthy Workplace Culture is Crucial for Ministry Effectiveness and Impact // Laura Gardner, Joni and Friends

Flourishing Culture Leadership Podcast

“Why Healthy Workplace Culture is Crucial for Ministry Effectiveness and Impact “

June 5, 2023

Laura Gardner

Intro: As you look ahead to the next three years, how should you be preparing your team to be fully ready for the uncertainties we face economically, politically, culturally, even spiritually? And can your organization be described as culturally strong, innovative, and resilient? Well, listen in as today's guest, Laura Gardner, the president of Joni and Friends, addresses how they are sharpening and being sharpened in order to be ready.

Welcome: Welcome to the Flourishing Culture Leadership Podcast, your home for open, honest, and insightful conversations to help develop your leadership, your team, and build a flourishing workplace culture.

Al Lopus: Hello, I'm Al Lopus, the co-founder of the Best Christian Workplaces and author of the book Road to Flourishing: Eight Keys to Boost Employee Engagement and Well-Being. In fact, I’m thrilled to announce my book is the finalist in the Christian Book Awards for the category of Ministry Resources. And I'm passionate about helping Christian leaders like you create engaged, flourishing workplaces. Thanks for joining us today.

When you have a healthy, engaged workplace, how do you keep your eye on continuous improvement, and how do you leverage your dedicated workforce in ministry growth and innovation? Well, today on the Flourishing Culture Leadership Podcast, we'll learn from a seasoned leader about how great workplace culture can help achieve mission impact. And listen in to learn how you can learn to lead toward flourishing in your own organization.

Well, I'm delighted to welcome Laura Gardner to the Flourishing Culture Podcast today. Laura is the president and chief operating officer of Joni and Friends. And for more than 40 years, Joni and Friends has been sharing the hope of the Gospel and giving practical help to people impacted by disability. The ministry was founded by Joni Eareckson Tada, and Laura has served as president of Joni and Friends since 2022, and previously she served as the executive vice president and chief financial officer. She’s been with the ministry for more than 10 years, and Laura is also the board chair of the Christian Leadership Alliance.

Hello, Laura, and welcome to the podcast.

Laura Gardner: Why, thank you, Al. It's such a joy, such a pleasure to be with you today. Thank you.

Al: I'm really looking forward to our conversation.

And Laura, before we dive into a couple of leadership topics, share with us an impact story from the ministry of Joni and Friends. In fact, we were just talking about a radio clip that I was listening to today. But we know that the ministry has a wide reach around the world, and it's really hard to pick just one story, I know. But share with us how a person or a family, maybe even a church, has been equipped and touched through the ministry of Joni and Friends.

Laura: Sure, I'd be delighted to, Al. And I tell you, God is doing amazing things through the ministry. But you know, as I think about your question, I can't help but share with you a story that I just learned about a couple of hours ago. And it came from our very first Warrior Getaway, international Warrior Getaway, that we held in Germany for Ukrainian wounded soldiers and active soldiers two weeks ago. And as you can imagine, it's a different environment that they're coming out of, with active war. And so we're excited to be able to serve these families because they're dealing with grief and loss and just trauma that we can't understand as Americans right now, certainly.

But there was one particular Ukrainian soldier who was there with his wife and two children, that he himself had traumatic brain injury as well as a whole host of physical disabilities caused by a bomb exploding right near him. In fact, it killed all of his fellow soldiers. And he laid there on the ground for a couple of days before he was found. They had to drag him to a vehicle that wasn't near. And so when their family arrived, they were completely shut down. We could not get them to engage with any conversation. They sat in the corner by themselves. It was just, you could see just the grief, the sadness, the pain, the suffering they were going through.

And we had brought over some short-term missionaries, one which was a brain-trauma specialist, along with some counselors for marriage and family. And they said it was just like a miracle to watch that family slowly open up to talk about what they were going through and to talk about the pain and to actually see that the healing blood of Jesus Christ is what was going to give them the hope and the joy moving forward. And when they left, they said the family was engaging in conversation, activities. They had hope, they had joy, and the family was returning to one of the war-torn territories.

So they remain in our prayers, but we're hoping now that they're able to see and to face each day with some new joy, new hope, and a purpose, because now they've gone back to share what they have learned about Jesus Christ with other people that are going through something similar.

So, I mean, just something so raw and vivid as that and what's going on in our world today and to be able to go into a place like that’s so dark and torn right now and to share just the joy and the hope and the love of Jesus Christ is just such a privilege.

Al: Yeah. It's one thing to experience physical healing, another to experience emotional and spiritual healing in these kinds of situations. What a great pertinent story for today.

Laura: Mm-hmm. Absolutely.

Al: Thank you.

Well, let’s talk about your own leadership path here. That's hard to come off of that story, but I know at Joni and Friends, you came up through the finance side and into senior leadership. And I know you have other experiences even before that. Your previous leader, Doug Mazza, you know, is one of your great champions. And some people who have had some specialized areas that they've worked in have trouble getting above the details and letting go of the details and moving to a more of a broader leadership role. And you've demonstrated a clear ability to lead in a strategic sense as well. So what have you found most helpful to help you grow as a leader over the years?

Laura: Mm-hmm. Well, that’s a great question. And I will admit, first and foremost, that I am still a recovering CFO, but I have been able to embrace and to really enjoy my new role as president. And when I think about the success of the growth in my leadership, I would say it was accelerated by two things, Al: great mentors and a very curious mind. I have been so fortunate to have people like Doug Mazza in my life, that were experts in other areas outside of finance and accounting. And they would embrace the teaching and teach me about other areas and really increase my knowledge base to where, then, when I came into this role, I had a solid knowledge base of a lot of areas, not just finance and accounting. And so I'm really grateful for those mentors in my life.

And that was only fueled by a very curious mind. I must ask why? a hundred times a week. Why? How? I love learning the why and the how strategies. “Why’d you make that decision? Why are we choosing this path? Tell me how that's going to work.” And I think that curious mind helps fuel that additional knowledge base that really prepares you to be able to lead an organization in a lot of different areas, not just finance and accounting.

Al: Yeah. A curious mind is a learning mind. And yeah, we need to be lifelong learners, no question.

Well, Joni and Friends has been using the Best Christian Workplace Engagement Survey now for 17 years in a row. This will be your 18th year.

Laura: Thank you.

Al: And I know it's a pillar of your commitment to a healthy workplace.

Laura: Mm-hmm.

Al: So why do you continue to assess your culture each year? And, you know, how do you keep the process from being stale but something that allows you to continue to grow and build your workplace culture?

Laura: Yeah. Especially post pandemic, Al, I believe it's more critical than ever that we annually access our employees’ engagement and their drivers for satisfaction, their fulfillment, their physical needs. And you know why? Because the workplace landscape has changed, our employees’ expectations have changed, and we need to listen to our employees to fulfill our commitment as leaders to them, to foster a healthy workplace environment.

You had mentioned it had been a 17-year-old partnership, and it has been one of the best partnerships we ever engaged in, because what it does is every year we're able to see are we successful at creating and fostering a healthy work environment, a healthy workplace, a culture for our employees in which they love working. And, you know, I would say that each year this process teaches us that even as a mature culture, you still must embrace a relentless commitment to listening, to learning, to adapting, to growing, each year. And we’ve learned this: every new generation of employees will—boy, if there's one thing we've learned, they have their own set of desires and expectations. And if we want to create a healthy environment for all generations, we need to go on an annual endeavor to listen to them, to learn from them, to adapt and to grow and to continue to build on that strong foundation of culture.

Al: Yeah. And one of the strengths that comes out over and over again is the positive energy that a flourishing workplace creates, and that you've got, and allows you to attract, grow, and retain great people. And we've really been impressed with the level and the caliber of leaders and people that you've got at Joni and Friends over the years. And this investment in your people can also set you up for program success. And as you look at measures of impact and growth, you know, what are some of the specific links that you see between having a strong organizational culture and ministry effectiveness? Can you connect the dots for us between the two?

Laura: Absolutely. We know that there is a significant correlation between a strong organizational culture and ministry effectiveness. The two are not mutually exclusive. Instead, we know that a strong organizational culture is the foundation for significant ministry effectiveness. You had mentioned Doug Mazza earlier, our former president. I can remember him telling me so many times, “Laura, I have never seen a bad mission statement. Mission statements are always great. But I've seen bad, toxic cultures.” So if there's never a bad mission statement, why do Christian nonprofits fail? Well, it's because we have to be relentless about the culture. And ministry effectiveness is tied directly to culture.

We believe here at Joni and Friends that building a strong culture, quite frankly, it begins day one. When the employee shows up at the front door, we want a director to meet them, to give them a tour, to show them around. And if I'm in the office and not traveling, I want to be the first person to meet with them one on one, just so I can share with them how excited we are about them being with our ministry. We share with them that we've prayed about them; they’re an answer to prayer, that this is a calling, not a job. And I take every opportunity to share our culture and our four pillars so that they know from day one this is who we are, this is how we do ministry, and this is how we're going to grow together and be successful together. And so ministry effectiveness is a direct result from a strong organizational culture.

And, you know, our four pillars, we start with lead like Jesus. That's our first pillar. Our second is integration. Our third is excellence in your area of expertise. And our fourth one is Best Christian Workplace. And why is Best Christian Workplace so important that we made it a pillar of the organization? Because that, again, lets us know if we're successful in our culture.

Al: Absolutely. And it's great to measure it every year, as you say. Otherwise, you’re not really sure.

Laura: That's right.

Al: Laura, you're an innovative leader. Prior to your tenure at Joni and Friends, you actually created a unique organization that combines etiquette and technology to deliver world-class etiquette lessons online, which is fascinating. So your company is called the Protocol Institute, and it was one of the first of its kind in the etiquette industry. So what are some practical ways that you and your senior leadership team give space for your employees to innovate as you've innovated in the past? How do you give your employees space to innovate and carry out the mission of Joni and Friends? How does having a healthy culture actually provide an environment for such innovation?

Laura: It's imperative that we create a culture and really embrace a culture that embraces open, honest, and diverse ideas and thoughts. And so we strive to create what we call a safe place. And there are many times I will start a meeting with a department, with a group of people, and I'll tell them, “This is a safe place. There's not a bad idea.” Your employees have to trust you. You have to have that trust level between leadership and with employees so that they know that they can say good ideas, bad ideas, and different ideas, whatever it is, and know that it's safe for them, and they're not going to see any repercussions of it or anything like that. So we strive to create that safe place through trust.

Now, trust is developed through transparency. And so a couple of ways that we do that is, first and foremost, our very first value at Joni and Friends is to build relationships based on trust and respect. It’s something that we live out every day. And we operate with full transparency. There's a lot of times I will simply do a video to our employees to explain the why behind a decision. We know this is really important to them. They want to understand the why. And being a why person myself, I get it, so it's easy for me to embrace that.

And, you know, we have an expectation with all of our leaders that they're accessible to all our employees, full open-door policy. They know they can come at any time. They can teams chat me, whatever it may be. We all need to be accessible to all employees at all times.

And I think the last thing is we really try to embrace vulnerability. It's okay to try new things and to fail. I want you to fail because if you're not failing, you're not trying, and we’ve got to try new and innovative things. We just say that we want you to fail fast, learn from it, and get up and get going again. And so, you know, it's creating that safe environment where you can be vulnerable, where you can try new things, where you can be innovative. And it's a safe place for our employees.

So we try to create that for them. And I really think that's what fosters innovation and creativity, because what we do know is that fear will completely stifle and kill innovation and creativity.

Al: Yeah, that's exactly right. You know, if people are afraid to lift their head up and raise their hand and make a suggestion because, you know, they have this attitude or the cynicism that, “Oh, nobody's going to listen—"

Laura: Right.

Al: —"Nothing's ever going to happen,” or I'm going to get my hand slapped because I tried something and it didn't work, then that just is a killer of innovation.

Laura: Right.

Al: But yeah, you're absolutely right. The safe place.

Laura: Mm-hmm.

Al: I love that. Yeah. It's got to be a safe place built on trust and transparency, where you embrace vulnerability. Absolutely. Yeah. That's really, really helpful.

Laura: And, you know, I would say, Al, one thing that we're trying this year, which is new for us and it's exciting program, we heard, from the Best Christian Workplace, studying all the open-ended questions, one of the themes is they wanted to have a voice into the decision-making process, not only know the why, but a voice. So we have launched what we call the Management Advisory Group. We call it the MAG. The Management Advisory Group is a group of individuals from all different levels of the organization, all different departments. It's a six-month stint that you sit on this Management Advisory Group. It’s a privilege to be able to serve. You have to apply and be recommended for it. But this group has direct access to our executive leadership team. They're part of the decision process. They bring new ideas. We answer to them. And, you know, this can be a little risky thing. You're putting some power into the hands of people at all levels of your organization. But we love it. And what we're able to do, then, is we're also able to find leaders that are not your normal suspects, that have stepped up and have stepped up to leadership in this MAG, Management Advisory Group, that, then, we can say, “Hey, this is a great up-and-coming leader. We need to get them on a leadership-development track.” And so we have more eyes to see, more ears to hear, and we're really excited about this Management Advisory Group that we've launched this year.

Al: Yeah. Listeners, there's an idea for you, the Management Advisory Group, a MAG.

Laura: A MAG.

Al: And I really love that idea, Laura. And what a great way of, as you say, identifying new leaders and really helping to create that leadership pipeline—

Laura: Mm-hmm.

Al: —that is necessary for any organization. Wow. Great idea.

I trust you’re enjoying our podcast today. We’ll be right back after an important word for leaders.

Female: As we come through the COVID-19 crisis, leaders everywhere are asking, how do we understand the tensions our employees are experiencing coming back to work? How do we keep our employees engaged, hold on to our best talent, and position ourselves to thrive as an organization going forward? If you're looking for a way forward, the Best Christian Workplaces Institute can guide you onto the road to a flourishing workplace.

The first step to begin the journey is our well-known Employee Engagement Survey. This proven online tool pinpoints where your organization is already strong and where you can improve your employees’ workplace experience, resulting in more productive people. That's right. You'll have more engaged, productive, and fulfilled people. Time-consuming guesswork won't get you there. Instead, let us help you with a fact-based, hope-inspiring action plan that only our Employee Engagement Survey and skillful coaching can provide. Sign up now to begin the journey to build a flourishing workplace culture and a thriving organization. Find out more at bcwinstitute.org.

Al: And now welcome back to our guest, Laura Gardner, the president of Joni and Friends.

You mentioned this a little earlier. Let me come back to it. But you've grown in your own leadership, partially because you've benefited from the mentoring of a variety of leaders. You mentioned Doug as an example. But now as a senior leader, how have you engaged in mentoring others? Is that something you do? Have you had the opportunity to mentor particularly women who are upcoming leaders in Christian organizations? Help us with this mentoring concept. What do you look for in meaningful mentoring relationships, and what are some of your experiences?

Laura: Yeah. Absolutely. Having benefited from just remarkable mentors, coming up through my career and even today, I mean, one of—my boss is Joni Eareckson Tada. There is no greater mentor as far as a female leader in Christian ministry. Just remarkable. And I want to be able to invest in other people because it really is investing in people. And I wake up each day and I think, “How can I give myself away?” because I know that's where my greatest joy will come. “Jesus, let me give away my time, my effort, my resource, whatever You have gifted me with.” And I’m really passionate about female leaders in particular, because I do believe that the strongest executive team, the strongest team you'll ever have is a diverse team, not only of women and men, but of a diversity of backgrounds and so forth, because it is that collective perspective that really comes together is when you get the best solutions, the best ideas, the best leadership. And so there are several women within the organization and outside of the organization that I am currently mentoring.

And when I look at the mentorship, before I even take on a mentee, I will say, “Let's talk about what you're looking for,” because I need to understand, what are their goals? I may or may not be the right person for you. I have certain expertise in areas, but if you're looking for someone to mentor you in computer programing, I am not your person, and I will tell you, “I am not your person. But I know people who could be your person.”

And then, I look at accessibility. Do we both have the time? because you need to invest time and effort into it. And I don't think that it's fair to anyone to get halfway through a mentorship and then just say, “You know, this is not going to work out. We didn't think about the time element of it.” So we have to align our goals, we have to align the discussion items, and we have to align and make certain that our calendars have the bandwidth to be able to create that mentorship.

Al: Yeah. And I know a lot of people, a lot of leaders will have somebody ask them, “Will you mentor me?” And then that's the, “Oh my gosh. Do I have time on my calendar?” But yeah, by knowing, “Well, what are you looking for exactly? And do you have the time, and do I have the time? Let's work on that.”

Laura: Yeah.

Al: So speaking of time, you're very busy, I should say, leading Joni and Friends. But you also serve as the board chair for the Christian Leadership Alliance, another organization I care a lot about. And your board services a commitment to serving the broader Christian community through an investment in good governance as the board chair. And you're also connected with a great group of leaders. I look at the CLA board and I think, “Boy, that's a great group.” So how has serving the CLA board expanded your own perspective on leadership and maybe helped you to grow as a leader?

Laura: Well, you know, I think we would need longer than an hour if I was to truly talk about all the amazing things that really has come about through this privilege. And it is a privilege to serve the Christian Leadership Alliance. It is so important that as leaders we get outside of our everyday-to-day bubbles. I say I operate in the Joni and Friends bubble. It's the best place that I could ever operate in. Everything, we go to Christ. We go to prayer in all of our decisions. But there is another world out there, and there are some other things that I need to learn best practices about, that I need to share some of our best practices with them.

And that's what the Christian Leadership Alliance does. We have a saying that we want to sharpen and be sharpened. As Christians, when we are brought together as leaders at Christian Leadership Alliance, that's exactly what we do. We sharpen, and we are sharpened by our colleagues.

And it is a broad sense of sharpening, too. Not just from, you know, one aspect of, say, board governance, but it goes all the way to marketing, and it goes outside of your typical rounds to where we can become very, very educated as far as, what does it look like to be a great Christian leader today? And I often say, why is it that the world doesn't look to Christian ministries, Christian nonprofits as the gold standard? Why do they tend to default to the other universities of the world or whatever? We have the greatest leader as an example in Jesus Christ. We should be the gold standard for the rest of the world. And so operating in that Christian Leadership Alliance, what a blessing. Anyone who wants to live outside of their bubble and to sharpen and be sharpened, you should consider becoming a part of it. And I know I sound like a commercial, but I'm very passionate about what they do at Christian Leadership Alliance.

Al: Amen. That's right. Well, absolutely. Let's get outside our bubbles and learn from others. And that's a great place to do it similar. You know, there's lots of places; that would be one. But absolutely.

Well, as you look ahead, over the next three to five years perhaps, what opportunities and challenges do you see for Joni and Friends? I know leaders that are listening or are looking, you know, where we are, looking to the future, trying to anticipate what we need to do as a leader to move our organization ahead, some of the things might be common for leaders in Christian nonprofit sectors that are issues that maybe you've even seen at CLA. But what do Christian leaders need to be paying attention to over the next three to five years?

Laura: Well, that is an excellent question, Al. And I think first and foremost, as Christian leaders, the most critical thing that we have to do is to make certain that we are staying in the heartbeat of Christ. God will open the doors, and God will close the doors. We have to be diligent and roll up our sleeves every day. And if it's not raining, we need to carry the buckets of water out to water the fields. Do what it takes to be diligent. But God will open those. And it's so important that every day we go to the heartbeat of Christ. We're not one step ahead of Him, and we're not one step behind Him.

And as far as opportunities, I know for our organization, God has really thrown the doors open. And it was a blessing that came out of pandemic for us. It really heightened for us the reality that people living with disabilities were even pushed farther into darkness and into isolation due to pandemic. And we needed to make certain that our services were pandemic resistant. So it really was the catapult for things such as our newest flagship called Joni's House, which are international disability centers around the world, so that regardless of the inability to travel, again due to a pandemic, we can still serve people with disabilities around the world. That has also opened the door. And this year we're exploring, what does that look like to have Joni's Houses domestically? So domestically and internationally, it has really thrown the door open to us to, how do we go ahead and augment our normal flagship programs to be able to serve the full community of the disabilities, not only here domestically but internationally?

And I would say that, you know, as far as the challenges, this is not going to be a surprise to anybody. You know, certainly we are in turbulent economic times, and we're in a time of war around the world. We're in a time of political uncertainty. And what does that look like? Every day it seems like more and more of the culture is changing to a darker culture that we must operate in. And how do we as Christian leaders stay true to our biblical truths, sometimes in those difficult conversations? That is going to get harder and harder. And I can only say that as a Christian leader, I share with my colleagues, “We have to know exactly what do we believe from a biblical standpoint so that when those hard questions come, we respond out of truth and love, and we're able to say, ‘This is what we believe, and this is why we made that decision.’” And I think that now more than ever, it is so critical that you know on all those hot topics—and we know what the hot topics are—that you know exactly where you stand from a biblical perspective because those hot topics are going to come to your front door sooner rather than later. And especially as a Christian ministry in Southern California, one of the most liberal environments, we know it's not a matter of if, but a matter of when.

Al: You make me smile because early in the Best Christian Workplace history, I was working with a Southern California organization, actually not too far from where you're at. And they said, “We'll never be a best Christian workplace because we live in Southern California, and the environment is just too toxic.” But here's Joni and Friends, a flourishing workplace.

But let me ask you, Laura—okay, you bring up a fabulous point here. We need to know what we believe. And of course, now people coming into the Christian workplace are less trained. They know less about the Bible. Can you share with us a little bit, how do you help them know what you believe as an organization?

Laura: It’s something that we actually have conversations about every single day. So we have a brilliant senior vice president over our leadership development and impact, Dr. K, Kathy McReynolds. She had been with us for 10 years, went to serve. She was recruited by the intelligence community for six years, and we have her back now. And one of the things that we did recently is we changed our Christian Institute on Disability to be titled the Joni Eareckson Tada Disability Research Center. This center is actually comprised of some Ph.D.s and theology that take on these hard topics for us. So we have developed policy statements on, what is our policy statement on identity gender, on LGBTQ+, on those top topics? because those are the topics that we, then, need to educate our employees on, what does Joni and Friends, what's our biblical foundation for the decisions that we make on these particular tough topics? And I can tell you it's not an easy conversation, Al, because all of us know and have been touched with friends and family in all of these communities, the disability community and on, right? And so it's not an easy conversation, but it makes it a clear conversation when it is guided by your biblical principles. And that's where you have to come from, the biblical principle. And that is where we're really working hard to make certain that all of our employees understand our position on it as Joni and Friends.

Al: Yeah. And let me just say to our listeners, I hope you heard that, because that's not often part of many organizations’ plan or program, to focus on what we believe and knowing what we believe and why from a biblical perspective. And of course, we get challenged every day with one more thing in our culture. And I even think of it as leaders in Christian organizations have to spend more time in discipleship training of their own employees as we go forward. But Laura, that's fantastic.

Well, this has just been a great conversation. Thanks so much. I love, first of all, I loved your story of the Ukrainian wounded soldier and his family. And while experiencing a traumatic brain injury, you had a team there that was helping he and his family emotionally and spiritually as he was being served. And Laura, also, yes, you’re a recovering CFO. Well, one of the most articulate—

Laura: I am still recovering.

Al: —one of the most articulate, I'll have to say. But, you know, you really highlighted the importance of being in touch with your employees and having an ongoing surveying process where you just continue that relentless commitment to a healthy workplace and how that impacts the outcomes of Joni and Friends over time. And how that, then, builds a safe place where you can be innovative and where trust and transparency is a key part of involving people in innovation. You highlighted a Management Advisory Group that you've created, and that's something, again, I'd like our listeners to think about, how you pick random—well, not random. I'm sorry—you pick people throughout the organization, they apply, and they participate in this Management Advisory Group, and it’s in a sense that you're working for them, as you're asking them to participate and then act on their suggestions. Mentoring. How great is that? Just a couple of great suggestions for us there. And being able to be involved in another board, for example, and that helps you get outside of your bubble. We’re all in our bubbles, but that really helps you to sharpen and be sharpened as we go forward. And again, your last point, let's know what we believe and why we believe it and what are the key foundation, biblical scriptures that we believe in that we're going to continue to promote through our ministries. So, wow, this has just been a great conversation, Laura. Thanks so much.

What would you like to add as we've thought about and talked about these things? Anything from your heart that you'd like to share with us?

Laura: Al, I often hear that, and I'd said it earlier, people will tell me you can't measure culture. And oh, I love when they say that, because that just opens the door to sharing with them, yes, you can. Now, you may not want to know your score, but you can measure culture. And I think that when I first came into this position as president, I said there were really three things. There are three Cs. It was Christ, it was culture, and it was clarity. And I truly believe that most Christian nonprofits, organizations, ministries, churches have Christ at the center. We all have this desire to serve Christ. We all want a healthy culture. But I encourage people to participate with Best Christian Workplace because that will give you the clarity that you need on how to move forward, to continue to foster a healthy and vibrant, thriving culture. And so I just, I encourage people to participate with Best Christian Workplace for the clarity.

Al: Christ, culture, clarity. Laura, that's a great way to conclude.

Well, thanks so much for your commitment today to be with us. And most of all, I appreciate your commitment to leading with excellence—

Laura: Well, thank you.

Al: —and equipping the team at Joni and Friends to fulfill what’s such an important mission. So thanks for taking your time out today and speaking in the lives of so many listeners.

Laura: Well, thank you, Al. It's been a pleasure and a joy. Thank you.

Al: Thank you.

Outro: The Flourishing Culture Leadership Podcast is sponsored by Best Christian Workplaces. If you need support building a flourishing workplace culture, please visit workplaces.org for more information.

We'll see you again next week for more valuable content to help you develop strong leaders and build a flourishing workplace culture.

Al: We've been asked to discuss the hot topic of diversity, equity, and inclusion from a Christian worldview. So join me next week for a conversation with Marcus Robinson, the director of DEI at Life Pacific University. You won't want to miss it.