Transcript: Boards That Shepherd, Not Just Oversee // Michael Martin, Evangelical Council for Financial Accountability (ECFA)

Flourishing Culture Leadership Podcast

“Boards That Shepherd, Not Just Oversee“

May 26, 2025

Michael Martin

Intro: What's the single most overlooked factor threatening the health of Christian ministries today? Well, in today's episode of the Flourishing Culture Leadership Podcast, I sit down with Michael Martin, the president of ECFA, to talk about the vital connection between trust, leader well-being, and healthy board governance. We explore why healthy ministries begin with healthy leaders and what boards can do to proactively support and sustain leadership health. If you're a Christian nonprofit leader or board member, I believe this conversation will equip you to lead with greater wisdom, humility, and impact.

Welcome: Welcome to the Flourishing Culture Leadership Podcast, your home for open, honest, and insightful conversations to help develop your leadership, your team, and build a flourishing workplace culture.

Al Lopus: Hi, I’m Al Lopus, the co-founder of the Best Christian Workplaces and author of Road to Flourishing, the go-to research-based, Christ-centered guide to build a flourishing workplace culture. My passion is to equip Christian leaders like you to create engaged, flourishing workplaces, where people thrive and organizations make a significant Kingdom impact. If you'd like to learn more about my book, opportunities to have me speak, this podcast, or recent articles I've written, I invite you to visit allopus.org. That’s A-L-L-O-P-U-S dot org. Let’s journey together to build flourishing workplaces where your faith, leadership, and organizations thrive.

I’m delighted to welcome Michael Martin to the podcast today. Michael's the president of ECFA, the Evangelical Council for Financial Accountability.

Throughout our conversation, you'll hear Michael talk about effective board practices to care for leaders; learn how healthy, engaged boards can actively support the spiritual, emotional, and professional well-being of senior leaders through rhythms of encouragement, accountability, and prayer; also, practical tools to align culture with mission. Discover how boards and executive leaders can partner to shape a workplace culture that reflects biblical values and fosters a flourishing environment for all staff. And third, leadership sustainability through governance. Gain insight into how wise governance and intentional board relationships create the conditions for leaders to thrive over the long haul, avoiding burnout and fostering resilience.

I think you're going to love this interview with Michael Martin. But before we dive in, this podcast is proudly sponsored by the Best Christian Workplaces’ Employee Engagement Survey, the most-trusted employee-engagement tool for faith-based organizations. With thousands of leaders already using our platform, each new participant strengthens the growing network committed to flourishing workplace cultures. What makes us unique? Well, we're the only research-based, biblically grounded employee-engagement survey designed specifically for Christian-led organizations, providing insight and transformation through a Kingdom lens. As today's guest, Michael Martin, reminds us, one of the most-loving things a board can do is to make sure the leader they've entrusted is actually flourishing. That's exactly what our Survey helps you do. Don't wait. Now is the ideal time to gather actionable feedback from your team to begin building a healthier Christ-centered workplace. Visit workplaces.org to learn more and to start your journey today.

And hello to our new listeners. Thanks for joining us as we honor your investment of time by creating valuable episodes like this.

But let me tell you a little bit more about Michael Martin. Michael Martin has served as ECFA's president since 2020, and he's also been with ECFA in a variety of roles since 2011. Along with providing leadership for the organization, he uses his training as an attorney and CPA to contribute to ECFA's many practical educational resources, including books, webinars, videos, podcasts, and more. Michael has a law degree from Regent University and a BA from Oral Roberts University.

So, here’s my conversation with Michael Martin.

Michael, it’s great to have you back on the podcast. I’m looking forward to our conversation today.

Michael Martin: Hey, it’s great to be back on the podcast. And, yeah, this time seeing you in podcast world, we were just together in person recently, so, good to be with you.

Al: Yep, thank you so much.

Well, I want to get, really, started off because the ministry of ECFA is so important to ministry organizations, particularly to enhance trust and the integrity and accountability of churches and ministries. And they can be so much more effective in their reach in the world for Christ. So, your organization has a significant impact on Christian nonprofits and churches for more than now 40 years. You have your pulse on the changes and opportunities in Christian nonprofits that you're facing today. What are a few of the major challenges, the key challenges, that you see over and over among ECFA member organizations?

Michael: Yeah, well, thanks, Al. I'm sure anybody who's listening to this podcast is going to say it is a time with a lot of challenges, right? A time with lot of challenge, a lot opportunities. Thank you. I'm happy to dive into some of those, but maybe even before I do that, just, yeah, thank you for your kind words about ECFA. The Lord has really blessed this ministry with a unique opportunity to sort of be like that gold standard for Christian donors that are looking for organizations that they can trust. And like you mentioned, for over these last 40 years and really the unique way in which ECFA's accountability process works, the fact that these are biblically based standards of accountability and an accountability process, we find, Al, that that's just becoming even more and more important in these times where trust has been on the decline and, also, organizations are, or I should say donors, are really looking for those giving opportunities with ministries where there is an alignment even in terms of their biblical values. So we're grateful for the opportunity that we get to serve in the Kingdom. And now with just over 2,700 accredited organizations across the country, that's something like more than 20,000 board members that are represented and several billion people that are reached annually. So you're right. We do have just a very unique vantage point to speak from.

You know, I think in terms of some of the challenges that we're seeing, certainly here in the last couple of years in particular, we all know it's been a more challenging time in our world, even financially. A lot of financial uncertainty. And so one of the things that we've seen within ECFA, one of our standards, really standard seven, that relates to ethical fundraising is we've seen organizations, what I would call, become a little bit more aggressive, maybe pushing the envelope a little bit, perhaps allowing some of the challenges of the times financially to push us to the edge on communication in ways that border in terms of truthfulness or ways that are enhancing trust with donors. And so I think ethical fundraising, especially in these times, is something that we're watching. We're doing a lot of educating with our members as well because we do know the importance of how we communicate with donors, how we honor giver expectation, intent. That's a really big deal.

I think also, Al, I would add into that mix, board governance. You know, that's one of our standards. It's been a standard of ECFA’s really since the beginning. I'm more and more convinced, I think you probably agree with me on this, that a good board, having the right board in place, really either make or break a ministry. And so we pay a lot of attention to board governance.

And then, if I had to zoom out even beyond just the technicals of what are the ECFA accreditation standards in terms of specific areas, maybe just a higher-level point is just on the importance of humility. Scripture makes it clear that it's pride that comes before a fall. And so one of the things we've seen over and over again in organizations that struggle or maybe even reach a point of failure is at some point along the way—and I say this in all humility because I know but for the grace of God, there go we—but we've got to just continue to keep a pulse on humility of the leader, of the board, of all those involved to see God's blessing on a ministry.

Al: Yeah, Michael, I couldn’t agree more. The humility issue is certainly one, in our Best Christian Workplace research, we find that inspirational leadership depends so much on humility because when you're in a humble position, you're in a position to learn. And gosh, what leader doesn't feel like they need to learn more? And so, yeah, that’s exactly right.

And your point about truthful communication as we're kind of seeing ministries on the edge of ethical fundraising, yes, let's be the standard for truthfulness and transparency when it comes to not only fundraising but just communication overall. You're right on track.

Well, recently, you've introduced this new standard for leadership care, and I want to talk about that, Michael. The summary statement in that is that every organization's board and senior leader shall work together to develop a care plan for the senior leader. The plan should be approved annually by the board to demonstrate the organization's commitment to caring proactively for the leader’s well-being and integrity. So, give us some background on this new standard. We're excited about it, and I know that Jay Bransford, our president, has worked with you on a podcast to help promote this. That's just fantastic. So why are you introducing it, and how will it improve the health of Christian ministries?

Michael: Yeah, well, you took the words right out of my mouth because I was going to say this would be a great opportunity to give kudos to Best Christian Workplaces. We really appreciate the input that you all have provided among other ECFA member organizations as well, but you have such a unique perspective and insight into the importance of healthy leadership to a flourishing organization. So we've just appreciated all the input that Best Christian Workplaces has provided into this along the way.

To respond to your question, you know, I guess if I were to just say it very simply, I would say we have seen over time at ECFA that healthy ministries really don't exist without healthy leaders. And I think a lot of the genesis of the standard was, you know, it's been a few years ago now, back to the year 2020. And I say that, ask our listeners, you now, do you remember the year 2020? You're probably trying to forget that year.

Al: Yep.

Michael: But it was a notable year for a number of different reasons. You know, we're all kind of making it through those pandemic years. But in addition to that whole crisis, you now, one of the things that we were also experiencing at that time, as I'm sure everyone would remember who was in ministry at that time, is we were just seeing leader after leader, headline after headline, of just some of the really tragic stories of leaders that were experiencing failures of all different kinds, you know. And I'm always careful to say not just the integrity failures, the moral failures that we would read about but also leaders that were really struggling, you know, experiencing burnout and dropout in ministry. And so, we began, Al, to hear more and more from the ministry community, the members of ECFA, who I'd say are really the heroes of this story. We were hearing from them and also Christian donors as well that we’re relaying. We know that ECFA's mission is to enhance trust in churches and ministries. And we're experiencing all of these challenges in leadership and the impact that they were having on trust. And so we were just really posed that question of if ECFA's mission is to enhance trust and we know the importance of leadership, healthy leadership, is there anything that ECFA can do to help and to make a difference in that space? And so that's really a lot of the heart behind it.

I would also, and we could talk about the process that unfolded over the next, these last few years to reach us to this point of getting to the standard that you just summarized and read there. But, you know, I'd say in addition to the connection there with trust, we know that leadership is one of the greatest financial risks that organizations face today and with ECFA's focus on finances. But then, I would also just add in there as well, going back to the founding of ECFA, there's always been standards that are related to, you, know, the E in our name. It's evangelical. So what does it look like for an organization to be uniquely Christ-centered? And then, also, one of our other foundational standards that was non-financial as well was the standard around governance. The founders of ECFA really recognized the importance of good governance to the health of the organization. And so in a lot of ways in this dynamic that we're encouraging of the board investing proactively in the care and the well-being of leaders, it just really relates back, Al, to all of those issues of trust, of the evangelical nature of ministries, good governance, and the financial impacts as well.

Al: Yeah. 2020, I think in some ways we're just starting to come out of the COVID. I mean, as I've been to conferences and as I listened to people talking. And yet, clearly, the issues that leaders have, still the number of pastors, as David Kinnaman at Barna was sharing just last week at your conference, the number of pastors who are still interested or are concerned about continuing in their role, the number of leaders who are experiencing mental-health issues, yeah, still a key thing to consider. Absolutely.

And of course, the relationship of the board to the senior leader of the organization is the key part, isn't it? It's the essential part of effective governance and organizational health. As I think about key board governance leaders, like Bob Andringa and others, it's the relationship between the board and the CEO that's so important.

So, I know in your standard, you don't want to be too prescriptive about how an organization can care for senior leaders, but give us some examples of what you see as best practices for leader care.

Michael: Yeah, will do. And I’m thankful, Al, that you kind of brought it back around in that question to, again, the relationship between the leader and the board. And I'd say that's also a great follow on to what we were just chatting about as well of this new ECFA standard and our involvement in this space is because as an organization, a standard-setting organization, and one that also upholds the importance of good governance, along with that just recognizing that as we think about leaders, it's really the board members of organizations that we would say they not only have a unique opportunity but also a responsibility in the context of Christ-centered governance to really help make a difference for leaders. I mean, if you think about it, who else is really positioned in a leader's life to be able to speak into issues like, I don't know if work-life balance is the right term, but just working at a healthy pace or the responsibilities that a leader carries, the type of, really, in a lot of ways we found even in our surveys and our research, the burdens that leaders are carrying? It's really the board of an organization that can speak into those in ways that really almost no one else can into the life of a leader. And so that's where we really felt like if there is a role for ECFA, this is where we want to focus, is this relationship between the board and the leader.

So, you had asked about what are some examples of some of those best practices when it comes to leader care. I'll take this opportunity to mention, and not just a standard that ECFA is rolling out but also a whole line of new resources from ECFA, too, and one of those is a new e-book, where we talk about the essentials of leader care. So maybe that's something we can share with the folks that are listening on this podcast. But there's an e-book that would kind of walk through, how do you go about practically the process of leader care as a board? So I think that's a great resource.

I also think it's a great opportunity to even mention, I'll just refer, Al, to the actual standard and commentary that relates to this topic of leader care, which those who are listening can go to ecfa.org/leadercare. You can read the whole standard and commentary there. But within that, there are actually nine examples of elements that an organization might want to include in a leader-care plan. And I'll say this came from a revised version of the standard. We found about a thousand ways not to make a standard, a thousand ways not to make the light bulb, right?

Al: Yeah.

Michael: But these examples were included, Al, because again, yeah, we didn't want to be prescriptive. We know there's not a “one size fits all” for any leader or any organization. But we were asked, can you provide some examples? Help us have a sense of, what are some things we might want to be paying attention to when it comes to leader care? So I won't read all nine of those, but maybe just choose a few.

One would be a commitment by the board as individuals and as a corporate body to regularly pray for the senior leader as well as his or her family. So often the family of a leader is overlooked in that process. The leader taking appropriate time off from work each week; being able to take those regular vacations with minimal work-related interruption; a leader's commitment to obtaining an annual physical-health examination; and proactive relationships with healthcare providers, including maybe counselors, when that's appropriate, to help support the leader's physical and mental health.

We talk about the importance of leaders working to build relationships with pastors or other trusted spiritual leaders who are outside the organization. That can help serve as mentors or counselors.

And then, finally, one of the last examples that we would include is that at appropriate intervals, the board offering the leader specific opportunities for extended personal rest and spiritual growth. And that could be things like retreats, sabbaticals, or similar experiences.

So really, we do put this back on the organization, the board, to work alongside its leader to develop a plan that fits well within its context, that meets the needs of leaders. But those are some examples of best practices that we've included in the commentary.

Al: Well, thanks, Michael. Just for our listeners, really think about that. I'll have to say, just an example, Michael, just from our standpoint, I remember, as you know we do a 360 review, and we had a senior pastor of Omega Church over 10 years do a 360 review. And the bottom scoring item on the Survey every year was the work-life-balance issue. I mean, it’s one thing that we Surveyed. And he would say, “Yeah, yeah, yeah.” And we had three different board chairs over that 10-year period that would sit in with those reviews. And they would say, “Yes, we need to make sure you're taking your vacation.” And unfortunately, at the end of that 10-year period, he left his role. And there was kind of a mystique around, well, why he really left. And it turned out that he had just burned out. And so it just, it broke my heart. You know, here he was actually getting the feedback. He wouldn't take that action item seriously. But yeah, so as you're saying, certainly, we need to commit to pray, certainly. And this is so true with leaders. So many will admit that they might be workaholics, but they need to take time off. They need to have vacations. They need put boundaries around work. And physical and mental health. All of these things that you've mentioned are just so important. So thanks for your feedback on this and the practical aspects of how the board has responsibility for the health of the leader. And those are some great action steps. Yeah. Thanks.

Michael: Well, and I just want to echo, too, Al, the comment you made about 360s, because I think those can be so useful. We know in the context of a leader-care-type conversation, this isn't, like, a performance-review-type thing, but the way that 360s are able to provide even that assessment for leaders, because I think that is one of the, I'll say maybe a challenge to implementation of this is that a leader also needs to be able to identify, what are those areas where helps are needed? And so yes, utilize the 360, other processes to really take the time to say, what are the needs that really need to be addressed? So I just echo that comment.

Al: Yeah. Healthy leaders are essential for healthy organizations, as you said earlier. That is so true.

Well, let's continue on because beyond leader care, what are some of the other essentials for a healthy board? You work a lot with boards. Many of our listeners are leaders of Christian nonprofits, schools, and churches. And while the leader serves under the authority of the board, the leader also has influence in the effectiveness of their board. In many cases, the leader, the executive director, the CEO, whatever the role is, they have a lot of influence on how that board works. So what are some practical steps for a nonprofit leader to really enhance the effectiveness or the health of their board? What comes to mind?

Michael: Yeah. And I really appreciate the nuance in that question, because if people are maybe listening to that just quickly, yeah, there is a nuance in there, which is leaders, we believe, in a healthy governance-type relationship are going to be under the accountability and the oversight of a board. But you make a good point, Al, that they're also in a unique position to influence boards. And so maybe I would even use that term that's sometimes used even within organizations, like leading up. And I think there is an opportunity there for leaders to have influence on the effectiveness of their board.

I think of just a few different ways that leaders could do that. I think one is, first of all, if it's appropriate within their context of governance, for leaders to even speak into the board selection process because the health of the board ultimately in a lot of ways comes down to who is on the board. And we've seen too many organizations that just sort of rush through. They don't pay enough attention to prayerfully discerning who should be serving on the board. So I think to the extent that a leader can help the board by speaking into that selection process, the who is very important.

I think, also, having the kind of relationship between the leader and the board chair, where a leader is able to help influence what types of items come onto the board agenda to make sure that the board is focusing on critical topics during the precious time that they're able to spend together in meetings.

Another one that I think probably should have started the list of ideas with this, but it is the influence that the leader can have with the board in terms of keeping Christ at the center of their meeting. So, not just a perfunctory prayer to open a meeting, but, you know, meaningful times of engaging together in Scripture, in growing together in Christ. I maybe thought of that just in the context of the agenda, but that probably is right there at the top of the list.

Maybe just two others that I'll nominate for you, Al, and you can comment on these if you'd like, but I also think just making sure that board members are clear about, what are the expectations of board service? How many times would people show up in the boardroom and then maybe not even have full clarity about what their roles are. Maybe they've served on for-profit boards or it's their first time serving on the board of an organization, just making sure that I think the leader can play a role along with the board chair and others and making sure board members are really clear, what are the expectations of this?

And then, finally, one of my favorite things to mention would be I think the leader will play an important role with the board on an administrative function—something that sounds administrative, but it's a huge deal—and that is having a board-policies manual; having a collection of, these are the policies that have been approved by the board over the years that speak into governance; making sure that the board isn't reinventing the wheel or over time adopting even contradictory policies. A lot of times that'll come down to the work of the leader and the staff to help make sure that the board-policies manual is in good shape.

Al: In fact, Michael, I appreciate your point about keeping Christ at the center. And recently I did your ECFA board survey, you know, kind of looking at our board practices, and one of the things that came out is we need to spend a little more time on our board meetings discerning the Spirit of Christ, discerning what it is that we're actually doing. And we have prayer at the beginning of every meeting and prayer at end of every meeting, but is there a good time where the board actually stops and discerns, what is God's will for the items we're talking about?

So, as we’re talking about leaders and leadership health and effectiveness, an effective board is involved in governance, not day-to-day operations. And this is oftentimes where boards can get confused. They need to be engaged, but they really don't need to being doing, involved in day-to-day operations. So how do you encourage and equip a board to not be micromanaging the CEO or key staff, but yet not be too distant? This is always a challenge. When I talk with a lot of ministry partners like you do, and we talk about Carver's board governance model and board policy manuals and how, in fact, that people have the impression that keeps them away from actually what's going on in the organization. So, how do you encourage a board to not be micromanaging and too distant, but also engaged and having good board engagement? What are you finding are good practices in this area?

Michael: Well, I’ll say, Al, you said that so politely and diplomatically. Like, we all know. I mean, when it comes to the micromanagement issue or the opposite—let's just call it board dysfunction—those can be some of the most frustrating moments for board members and leaders to find themselves in. Unfortunately, you mentioned the statistics even of what Barna’s doing and David Kinnaman has shared of leaders that are dropping out of ministry. I mean, in some of those cases, it's because of a board dysfunction kind of issue. So I think your question’s a really good one.

I would just offer up three Cs, actually. I'm not a preacher, but every once in a while you can kind of get the letters to align as if—it's easy to remember, right? And I think just in finding that right balance of a board's engagement with the leader, it really starts with the first C of competent leadership. I think a lot of this all kind of falls on the foundational point of making sure that the board has really selected the right leader, someone who's competent, someone that they can trust to do the job that the leader was hired to do.

Then, I think second C would be to be clear about expectations. I know you have seen this as well, but sadly in too many situations, I think there can be that disconnect between a leader who isn't really clear on what their marching orders are. And so that can lead to all different kinds of dysfunction or questioning. That has a lot of tentacles to it.

So, but yeah, just to kind of build on these points, so you have a competent leader who's clear in their expectations. And then, the final C would be, I would also just say communication, the importance of the communication between the leader and the board, because even if the leader is competent, they're clear, if boards aren't getting that communication from a leader to know what is being done, naturally, they're going to have those questions, which could then lead to micromanagement and some of those other things. So I think that's the right level of communication during board meetings.

It's also finding, what are those rhythms of communication that need to take place between the leader and the board all throughout the year, even when meetings aren't happening? So, one of the practices that we use here at ECFA, I think there's other ministries that have implemented this well, but is also just the idea of a monthly email update, just to keep it very simple. A monthly email update from the leader to the board in between meetings is just giving the highlights of, here's what's going on, here’s progress that's being made towards strategic goals, here are some of our challenges. You know, don't even wait necessarily until the board meeting to raise those. We always operate under the principle of no surprises. I think it's good to communicate those things throughout the year.

And then, also, coming back around to something we talked about earlier, too, of the importance of prayer. You know, use that monthly email communication between the leader and the board to be able to share in real time, here are some ways that you can be praying for me, praying for the organization.

And so I don't know if that would solve all of the challenges, Al, but those three Cs would be a good, I think they'd be a starting point.

Al: Yeah. I mean, care is another C in there, Michael.

Michael: Yeah, leader care. There you go.

Al: Yeah, leader care. So competent leadership, you know, I love that. And as I think about even the definition of trust, which is so core to your mission is, yeah, competent; leadership care; communication, transparent communication. Absolutely. And then, clear expectations, and then integrity is another key of people actually doing what they say they're going to do. So, yeah, thanks. Competent leadership, clear expectations, communication. I love your idea of the monthly email. At Best Christian Workplaces we have an all-staff meeting, and actually we send out kind of a summary of that to our board members so that they're involved and know what's happening and what new organizations are joining and what the key issues are. So yeah, and then the importance of prayer, yeah. Fantastic.

Well, this is such great input for so many leaders who want to be effective over the long haul, healthy and effective over the long haul. And in your own leadership at ECFA, Michael, you've been using the Best Christian Workplaces’ Employee Engagement Survey for a number of years. And in fact, you've got top scores across the board, and I just congratulate you for that, and sincerely thank you for being a leader and an example of a flourishing workplace culture, especially scores in Inspirational Leadership. So how does ECFA model this kind of Christ-like leadership? You know, share with our listeners. Now their ears are perked up. Oh, okay.

Michael: Here’s the behind the scenes. Yeah.

Al: Here’s the real deal. Here’s the behind the scenes. Yeah. So, what are some practical steps that you and your leadership team take to inspire trust in your own leadership amongst your staff?

Michael: Yeah. Well, I feel like I need to start with just saying, thank you. Thank you for the ministry of Best Christian Workplaces and just making these tools available. I know for me as a leader, I would not go a year without taking this assessment. It's just proven to be so valuable for us, not to mention all the other resources from BCW that are just great all throughout the year, too. But yeah, you've been very kind. I think as you were asking that, Al, my mind went to some of our discussion even previously about the importance of the relationship between the board and the leader. I think, by God's grace, I've experienced that to be very healthy here at ECFA. And so I think that relationship has laid a lot of the foundation.

And then, yeah, in terms of, you know, some of the areas where ECFA has also flourished, I just want to give honor where honor is due, which is we've got an amazing team. We also have leaders all throughout the organization that really are all in. I mean, they're bought into this idea of we've seen the importance of having a healthy, flourishing, Christ-centered workplace culture. It's just so important to everything that we do. So I think it's part of the DNA. It's a part of the culture.

And maybe transitioning to, I think you had asked about some practical steps. So one of them is, honestly, for us, the team culture is one of our annual strategic goals. We actually make this, we fold team culture into our strategic goals as an organization, in addition to all the other program areas, because we know that at the foundation of all those other goals being achieved, like, we've got to have a flourishing workplace, a healthy team. And so I think it starts with making that a priority.

And then, there are certain things that we just also calendar. Throughout the year, we have monthly huddles with our team. We actually, just this week, had one of our quarterly all staffs. Once a year, we do a staff retreat, which is a great experience. And towards the end of the year, a team Thanksgiving, just special times of celebration with our team. Those are some of the big moments throughout the year.

But I also think it's just in the daily interactions that we have within our team, just making sure that people do feel well cared for, that they're able to prioritize not just the ministry of ECFA but their own soul care. You know, we've talked about that.

And then, in addition to that, you know, their family, which we really believe is a first priority, a first ministry that comes even before the ministry of ECFA. And if all of those things are in a proper order, not only do our team members benefit from that, but, also, ECFA thrives as well. So we've really seen that to be our experience.

But grateful for, again, coming full circle, the Best Christian Workplaces’ assessment, because it helps us not just have an anecdotal pulse but a data-informed perspective. And I think, also, just the value for any leaders that maybe haven't taken advantage of this tool yet. You may feel a little bit of reluctancy or nervousness about, “Okay. Well, if we put this Survey out, are we going to like what we hear?” But you know what I would say is, for us, like, as a leadership team—we talk about this with the annual Survey—it's those areas where it's not just the things that are going well, but it's actually the opportunities for improvement. That's the good stuff. I mean, that's what you really want to focus on if you're serious about having a flourishing workplace culture.

Al: I encourage leaders, as you've just done, to not let fear stand in the way of doing an assessment like this, because you're going to end up with good feedback. I just want to reinforce what you said. And to our listeners, let me ask you, do you have one of your annual strategic goals: to have a healthy or flourishing culture? And is culture even on the list of your strategic goals? Because it is a competitive advantage. It is a way to accomplish what you're trying to accomplish. So yeah, I appreciate that.

Monthly huddles, quarterly all-staffs, annual off-sites. These are rhythms, important rhythms, just like each of us need to have spiritual rhythms in our lives. These are great organizational rhythms that really reinforce to your staff, to employees that you care about them. You want them to be up to speed on what's going on and being able to contribute at a high level. That's great advice.

Well, we know for organizations, staying healthy isn't a single action. I mean, you've already identified several actions and an ongoing commitment to these things. And we see that with ECFA accreditation, organizations have to continue to meet the standards each year. So as you've modeled the value of regular assessments with workplace culture, so even as you show flourishing workplace-health scores every year, you continue each year to keep Surveying your workplace health. So why is this annual assessment important to you? And when you get the results, how does your team decide? “Well, we’re going to work on this or that.” How do they decide what actions to really take? Get into your plans, let's put it that way.

Michael:. Sure. Well, yeah, like I mentioned, as the leader of ECFA here, it's like, I wouldn't want to go a year without it. I just think it's too valuable. You know, and there's a lot that happens over the course of a year. So just as I think, you know, and I don't know, in other organizations, maybe the rhythm is less frequently than once a year, but I just think there's so many moving parts and pieces and how fast our world is operating and moving and things that are impacting our team, I think having at least an annual pulse on how things are going, it's just really important. And so we're grateful for the data that comes from that, giving our team an opportunity to share their thoughts, their voice, kind of speaking into the culture of ECFA.

I think for us, one of the things that we always take advantage of the opportunity is to not just do some self-reflection on the results that come in, which is a really important thing. Our leadership team does that. We circulate the results to the leaders throughout the organization. We also share some of the results with our board as well. But Al, we will also take advantage of the opportunity to even bring in some coaching from Best Christian Workplaces, from your great team, that's there to help unpack the results for us, because I know at times when we've gotten the assessment back, it's like, we'll tend to want to focus on a certain area because it says, oh, well, this has kind of dipped since last year or something like that, but then talking with your team, they're like, “Hey, put this in perspective,” you know? And they do help really help us understand the results that we're getting. It's almost like you do need to have, I think, that interpreter who would come in and not just allow you to do the own self-study of the results, but also bring in the team from Best Christian Workplaces to help you put everything in its proper perspective and maybe even help you see things within the assessment that you wouldn't otherwise see. I think that's really important.

And then, maybe finally, too, I think an important part of that process, and this is context as well, but just helping us as ministry leaders understand, here's what's happening not just at ECFA but across the ministry landscape or the employer landscape. These are trends that we need to all be paying attention to.

So those are just some of the ways that we really try to make sure we're not only participating in the Survey once a year, but we're really leveraging those results and the experience to its fullest.

Al: Well, Michael, let me just ask you a question here. You just brought up, well, you share some of the results with the board. And I'll have to say, I've listened to a lot of boards, and especially after maybe a transition of a CEO. And they said, “I’ve never heard that we actually participated in the Best Christian Workplace Survey.” And like ECFA, you're working generally with the executive director, the CEO. What do you recommend in terms of a top leader in an organization, what they would share with their board when it comes to employee-engagement-survey results, including even the Best Christian Workplace results?

Michael: Yeah, excellent. So, I think this gets into your question earlier, too, Al, about the tension between board micromanagement and then also, yes, just staying at the appropriate level, because, yeah, it's not the board's role to get involved in the day-to-day management of the organization or kind of getting into the weeds of some of those areas. And so, you're right. Finding that right balance is important.

I think one of the things, as I recall, the Best Christian Workplaces offers is even a sort of it's like the overall summary-level assessment. So I would recommend at least as a starting point as a leader, this is something that you could share with your board chair at the very least, just to say, “Here, just in the spirit of transparency, here's the process that we went through. We really find it valuable. These are the areas where our team has rated the organization well. Here are other opportunities for improvement.” But I think that summary information that is so helpful, And that also, out of respect for board members’ time, it doesn't get them into all the different layers and levels of detail, but I think that's one recommendation that I would have. And for us it's a natural at ECFA because if one of our board-approved strategic goals for the year in some way relates to team culture, like, this is us communicating back to the board, “This was one of my goals. Here's kind of an outcome. Here's where we're at in that process.” So for us it has felt like a very natural conversation to have.

Al: Yeah. In many ways, it is a great way to measure a specific goal that you might have. But yeah, okay. An executive summary to the board is a place to start, anyway. Yeah. All right. Appreciate that feedback because again, I've just heard too many times that the board is completely unaware that the leader, the CEO, the organization has done an Employee Engagement Survey and what the results are.

Michael: Can I just share one other thing, too?

Al: Please, yeah.

Michael: Yeah, I don't want to belabor the point, but I was thinking about this, too, at ECFA. I mean, we talk a lot about stewardship, and, really, the stewardship of our people is the most important stewardship that we exercise. And so if I'm a board member and one of the responsibilities of the board is ultimately kind of the overall stewardship of the organization, I think it's essential for boards to know if organizations are participating in Best Christian Workplaces or similar tools, what is the organization doing to really, in a God-honoring way, steward our people?

Al: Yep. That's how we work together so well because two things that a leader has to do is steward the finances of the organization, steward the people of the organization.

So, along this topic, let's just now take this a step further, because sometimes the relationship between the board and the CEO isn't so good. So what encouragement do you have to a leader who's actually struggling with moving forward and towards a healthy organization? Where do they start?

Michael: You mean those relationships aren't always easy? They're not always good? You have to interject some humor in these things, right? Sometimes in order to... No, it's true. My heart, really, in all seriousness, my heart goes out to leaders that are struggling here because I think we say all the time, I've heard it said by others, that the single most important relationship in the organization is between the board chair and the leader. The link between those two is just critically important. So, to leaders who are struggling in their relationship with the board, my heart does go out to you. I think it's definitely a matter of prayer. It's a matter of getting some wise counsel that's specific to your situation. Humility is required. You know, we talked about the importance of that earlier.

So, I guess I would add, Al, I point to the idea of Matthew 18. And I know within context, it's not necessarily, the Scripture's not talking about leaders and boards; it's about sin and the church and different things. But I think we can take some of the wisdom from Matthew 18 and think about, okay, if a leader is struggling with the board, the first place to start would be, as you can for that leader personally, to have a conversation. If that doesn't work, maybe there's some kind of an unresolved conflict between the leader and a board member. Well, what if you bring in there's another one or two board members that could help in some ways facilitate or mediate, contribute to the kind of conversation that needs to happen for reconciliation. And if that doesn't work, there are any number of governance, board-governance consultants who are believers, who I think bring a lot of wisdom, bringing in a third party that also has had experience working through. For those leaders who are experiencing that challenge, you're not alone. There are those other situations that are out there. And so that's some of the wisdom that I would offer, Al, is just from that whole Matthew 18 idea of first, the leader. If that individually doesn't resolve, maybe it's a smaller group. And then, maybe even in certain contexts, you need to bring in someone from the outside who has the organization's best interest in mind, who really loves and cares for that leader and loves and cares for that board and can help them work through whatever the struggle is that's happening there.

Al: Well, Michael, we've learned so much in our conversation today. It's just been fantastic. You know, starting off with the challenges that you've seen in Christian workplaces and Christian organizations and how we really need to keep focused on ethical fundraising, where we're fully truthful in our communication, and the importance of board governance and humility. You really kicked us off with just great insights. And it's really been exciting to talk about this new standard for healthy leaders and how healthy leaders do create healthy organizations. And so our listeners are thinking and reflecting even in their own situation. We pray that they do whatever it takes to become a healthy leader. And how the board does have the responsibility to help the leader be healthy as well and some of the essentials that you have of leader care, and appreciate the way you've described that, including how the leader needs to keep Christ at the center of the organization and of their work, as well as other key activities in the board, including having a board-policy manual. I can't emphasize that enough. So this has just been a great conversation. I appreciate your focus on team culture and how it's an annual strategic goal, and it's something that you update each year. And then, the way that you focus on how a lot happens throughout the year, you know, and having an annual pulse of your culture, much like we recommend and do ourselves, where we look at the ECFA standards each year, recertify, how important that is to us to make sure that we're a certified ECFA member and following now each of the standards.

So, is there anything that you'd like to add that we've talked about, kind of a bottom line of our conversation?

Michael: Sure. Well, Al, like anytime we're together, it’s a great conversation. At the risk of adding anything else, because I think we've probably already given folks enough to think about and probably enough to do, one of the resources at ECFA that is really one of our most popular, and I think it's because it's simple, is the “5 Building Blocks of Ministry Integrity.” And so within that resource, you know, Al, we talk about five key areas. I think they really summarize a lot of our conversation today.

The first is committed leadership. That relates to the board governance, leader care, the importance of healthy leadership, as we talked about. Number two, sound financial management. That is so critical to building trust with donors. Along with that, number three, appropriate transparency. Number four, we didn't dive into the details of this today, but I think anyone listening would know the importance of diligence and compensation setting and conflicts of interest. Those are such key trust areas for organizations to pay attention to. And then, finally, full circle, coming back to where we started, you know, trustworthy stewardship, the importance of fundraising with integrity. Those are the, what we call, the “5 Building Blocks of Integrity” here at ECFA. And so that's a great resource to help kind of give you a good launching point. We do say, don't be overwhelmed in the process. Take things kind of one step at a time, and following those basic building blocks will help position you in a way to enhance trust with those that you serve. Can also set you up well to be like Best Christian Workplaces, an organization that has earned the right to ECFA accreditation and to display the ECFA seal of integrity. So, without adding anything new into the mix, Al, I guess I would just come back to each of those five building blocks as key areas for leaders to focus.

Al: That’s a great focus. Thanks so much, Michael.

I want to thank you for your contribution today. Most of all, I appreciate your vision for equipping leaders and organizations to reflect Christ through operational excellence and integrity. So important to have trust. So thanks for taking your time out today and spending and speaking into the lives of so many listeners.

Thanks so much for listening to my conversation with Michael Martin. I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did.

You can find ways to connect with him and links to everything we’ve discussed in the show notes and transcript at workplaces.org/podcast.

And if you have any suggestions for me about our podcast or any questions on flourishing workplace cultures, please email me, al@workplaces.org.

You know, healthy leaders build healthy cultures, and the health of your leadership directly impacts the people you serve. And as today's conversation reminds us, investing in your leaders isn't optional; it's essential. Take the next step to build a culture where leaders are spiritually grounded, emotionally resilient, and organizationally effective. You can start today by assessing how your leadership is impacting your workplace culture at workplaces.org.

Keep listening to our weekly podcast as we continue to learn from leaders who are proven inspirational leaders. Next week, I'll be talking with Peter Greer, the president of HOPE International.

Outro: The Flourishing Culture Leadership Podcast is sponsored by Best Christian Workplaces. If you need support building a flourishing workplace culture, please visit workplaces.org for more information.

We'll see you again next week for more valuable content to help you develop strong leaders and build a flourishing workplace culture.