Transcript: Cracking the Communication Code: Strategies for Effective Dialogue // Jeremie Kubicek, GiANT

Flourishing Culture Leadership Podcast

“Cracking the Communication Code: Strategies for Effective Dialogue “

February 19, 2024

Jeremie Kubicek

Intro: Have you been surprised that people misunderstand you, especially when you feel like your communication was very clear? Well, people skills and effective communication can sometimes be called soft skills, but they can be hard to master. Today on the Flourishing Culture Leadership Podcast, we'll focus on communication principles that can unlock healthy interpersonal communication. So listen in and learn how you can grow in your communication skills to enhance the effectiveness of your leadership.

Welcome: Welcome to the Flourishing Culture Leadership Podcast, your home for open, honest, and insightful conversations to help develop your leadership, your team, and build a flourishing workplace culture.

Al Lopus: Hello, I'm Al Lopus, the co-founder of the Best Christian Workplaces and author of the book Road to Flourishing: Eight Keys to Boost Employee Engagement and Well-Being, which was a finalist in the Christian Book Awards. I'm passionate about helping Christian leaders like you create engaged, flourishing workplaces.

I’m delighted to welcome Jeremie Kubicek to the Flourishing Culture Leadership Podcast today. Jeremie’s the co-founder of GiANT, a company that certifies coaches and consultants. He's the author or coauthor of numerous books, including The Communication Code: Unlock Every Relationship, One Conversation at a Time.

Now, throughout our conversation, you'll hear Jeremie talk about the five important code words for healthy communications and the importance of care in communications and that care includes not only support but also challenge. Also, he'll be dealing with conflict and understanding the difference between critique and being critical, and then, finally, what to do with broken trust and how to be at peace with all men.

I think you're going to love this interview with Jeremie. But before we dive in, this episode was brought to you by the Best Christian Workplaces Employee Engagement Survey. You can sign up today to discover the health of your organization's culture. Now is a wonderful time to listen to your employees with our easy-to-administer online Engagement Survey by going to workplaces.org. You know, being a certified best Christian workplace improves your ability to attract more talented employees and keep them longer.

So, also, I want to say hello to our new listeners. Thanks for joining us. And if you’ve got some ideas for us, please email me, al@workplaces.org.

Now, let me tell you a little bit more about Jeremie Kubicek. Jeremie is a powerful communicator, a serial entrepreneur, and a content builder. He creates content used by some of the largest companies around the globe. His most recent book is The Communication Code: Unlock Every Relationship, One Conversation at a Time. And other books he's authored or coauthored include The 100X Leader, 5 Voices, and Making Your Leadership Come Alive, along with The Peace Index. Well, Jeremie’s the co-founder of GiANT, a company that certifies coaches and consultants who serve companies and ministries as well as their employees. The mission of GiANT is to equip experts who use their technology tools to unlock people. Jeremie started over 20 companies while living in Oklahoma City, Moscow, Atlanta, and London.

You're going to love this conversation with Jeremie Kubicek.

Hi, Jeremie. It’s great to have you on the podcast. I’m looking forward to our conversation today.

Jeremie Kubicek: What’s up, Al? Good to see you. I'm really excited to be here.

Al: So, Jeremie, let’s just start off with your recent book called The Communication Code, and you use the analogy of cracking codes during wartime. And I love that analogy. And you observe that relationships and people development are often called soft skills. We've got hard skills, we've got soft skills, and this is about soft skills. But they're the hardest to learn. And I think any of us in leadership will say, “Yeah, we know that.” They're the hardest to learn because of the dynamics that affect two people as they're trying to communicate. And in your business career, you've had lots of experience with different types of communication. You started over 20 companies around the world. I guess that makes you, for sure, a serial entrepreneur. So what are some of the key turning points in your own career where you realized the importance of communication or maybe where you saw firsthand how hard it is to communicate effectively.

Jeremie: Yeah. It's so interesting, Al, when you think of communication. If you're listening, think about this: communication is, really, you’re transmitting expectation. But transmission is not communication. Transmission is transmission. They have to receive it, understand, clarify what you want, and then transmit back in order for there to be a two-way communication. Most communication’s one way, right? So just realizing that communication has expectation. And we figured out that expectations have code words to them.

So one of the stories, the one that is probably most famous in our world, was Steve and I, my business partner, Steve Cockram. Steve lives in London. I was living in London. I was coming back to share some good news of some things that had happened in the U.S., and we had built this strategic partnership, and it was great. It’s exactly what we wanted. But how I got there had some little bit of ingenuity to it. So I was there at this little restaurant called Jack and Alice, and I go, “Dude, I'm so excited! It happened! Look!” And I shared with him the contract and details. And he goes, “Oh, that's interesting, but that's not what we decided, though. Why did you do that? Because I thought we had talked about a, b, and c, and you did x, y, z.” And I’m like, “Are you kidding me? Like, right now you’re pouring water on my fire. Like, I want to celebrate. I’m here to celebrate.” And he kept going, and he kept critiquing. And I go, “Why do you always have to critique?” And I, like, literally blew up. And he goes, “Well, what did you expect? What do you want?” And I go, “I want to celebrate.” He said, “Why didn't you tell me you wanted to celebrate?” And I said, “Why didn't you figure out that I wanted to celebrate?”

Al: You can't read my mind?

Jeremie: Well, it was, like, obvious.

Al: Yeah.

Jeremie: We got the account.

And so it led us to solving right there—we stayed there after our little feud, and we worked it out, and we figured out there's five code words that are evident, and, like, oh my goodness, every one of us have these expectations in our communications. It's like communication is baited with expectations, and most of the time, it's unmet. And so that's really where it started from, and that was probably one of the most paramount ones.

And then we started thinking about, you know, our spouses and our kids and our business partnerships and all that.

Al: Yeah. I remember talking with a leader at a church as we were doing a debriefing of the Best Christian Workplace Survey, and one of our key drivers, I'll mention it later, is healthy communication. I said, “We need to work on that.” They said, “Oh, well, we have communicators in our church.” And I thought, “They're talking about preachers—

Jeremie: Ah, yeah.

Al: —one-way—

Jeremie: One way.

Al: —one-way communicators. You're talking about—

Jeremie: They have transmitters.

Al: Yeah, they have transmitters. That’s a better word for it, isn’t it. Yeah.

But, yeah, it’s two ways. Yeah, right. Yeah. That’s exactly right.

So, Jeremie, in our research on employee engagement, you know, we've shown that healthy communication, as I mentioned, one of our eight key drivers to a flourishing workplace, is important. So give us a high-level view of what you call the five key code words. You've introduced us to that topic. You know, give us a little depth. You know, what are these five ways or five things, five code words that are part of communication?

Jeremie: And it's interesting because the code words, you think about it, there's things that you expect and others expect. So those words are celebrate, care, clarify, collaborate, or critique. Now, what happens then, there's an expectation, right, attached to that.

So, if I'm with my wife, she wants me to care. I want care as well. But our care is a little bit different. Our celebrations a little bit different. Within all five of these Cs, how you want it is a little bit different, and that's really important to note.

So, if my wife wants care, and I come in trying to fix it by collaborating, then I've now missed it, and there's probably going to be a potential for a fight or frustrations. She puts up her wall and goes, “You always do this. Why can't I just… I just need to talk. Just listen. I don't want you to fix it.” And that's a form of care, right?

So the idea, then, is celebration means we're celebrating something together, whether it's a victory or whether it's something we've worked on together. Care is, I know you're for me. You're giving me a space to be able to be me. Clarity, clarify, means that we’re clarifying. Before we can collaborate or critique, I need to know that we're on the same page. Let me make sure I'm hearing you right. Right? Collaboration is different than critique. Collaboration is mutually working on something together; we’re building together. Whereas critique is, I'm going to shoot a hole in something to make it better. But what happens, if you don't give me permission to do that and I critique, then it can do a lot of damage.

And what happens in relationships is there's a power play. It could be a boss. It could be a dad or a mom. It could be a, you know, someone with maybe a little bit higher title. And if they always come in the room, and they always start critiquing, then everyone else shuts down, puts their walls of self-preservation up, and that person loses influence and has no idea why. And so it's language, it's common language, that teams and organizations can use that really makes them more highly functioning, relationally intelligent individuals.

Al: This is great framework. Thank you, Jeremie, for sharing this.

I love the five Cs to start with, but, yeah, celebrate, care, clarify, collaborate, critique. All five, they have important roles in healthy communication. There's no question about that. And again, it's transmitting. It's receiving. It's all of that together. Well, again, a great framework.

Well, let's talk about care a little bit. You know, it's easy to see how this is important in personal relationships and communication. I've heard it said that people aren't really willing to listen about how they can improve, especially maybe in a performance-management conversation, unless they know the person cares about them, for that to happen. In fact, in our Employee Engagement Survey that we use, we have the question, my supervisor cares about me as a person. So let's talk a little bit. Share with us, why is it so important to show care for people on our teams? And how does caring unlock better communication in our workplaces particularly?

Jeremie: Well, you know, and that word care is such a—it’s a weak word in some people's vernacular, especially in the business world. And it's really not. I actually tie it to support. Care is high support, and inside we have a matrix, the Support Challenge Matrix, that we share in the book. We talk about high support and high challenge. And the best leaders in the world bring both. It's a lamb and the lion, from a Jesus perspective. It's high support, high challenge. That's a liberating culture. If you don't bring high support, then what happens, the other person doesn't know that you’re for them. They're thinking you're either for yourself or against them. So as soon as they assume that you're not for them, they're going to expect the worst in you; they're not going to assume the best. They're going to put their walls up to protect themselves. They're going to maybe talk about you to other people out of frustration.

So that's an example of care. Care is simply support. And the way that you find out what they need is you ask them, “Al, what support do you need from me? What does high support look like to you right now?” Or if you go, “Hey, Jeremie, I really—” in the communication code— "I really need you to—this needs care.” “Okay? What does that look like, Al?” “I need a safe space to vent a little bit because I'm really frustrated, and I need to get it out. Don't judge me. And no, I’m not gossiping. I just am frustrated.” And that’s caring.

Or caring might be, “I just need you to listen at the end of my day. I had some things happen. I don’t really want you to collaborate. Just listen. Don’t talk.” That’s care.

Or the other one would be, “I care for a lot of people. I need you to care for the people I care about. Would you show empathy for the people I’m showing empathy for?”

So those are all examples of care.

Al: Yeah. Let me ask you. That's the challenge part of care. So I understand the support part of care, but I like the challenge part. Just tell us a little bit more about the challenge and how that's part of care, too.

Jeremie: So, we believe in GiANT Worldwide, we have another book called The 100X Leader, that culture is atmosphere. So it’s like a greenhouse, and a great leader is like a green thumb, a gardener. And what they're doing is he or she, the gardener, is positioning their green plants. They want them to thrive. Like, if you think a plant here. There’s a plant. Does it want to grow? Yes. Do you want it to grow? Yes. You both want each other to grow, right? So therefore, the gardener’s positioning the plant for the best.

Well, sometimes you've got to move a plant away because you're caring for the plant, but it's in too much sun, or it needs to be away from another plant because that plant is toxic. It's got mites, whatever it is. So care sometimes is positioning and moving and challenging. So you're basically regulating support and challenge because you're fighting for the highest-possible good of that plant. And when you fight for the highest-possible good, then that's when they know that you're really for them, and trust is developed, which makes communication thrive.

Al: Yeah. Well, yeah. Caring, high support, and challenge, I love that. Great.

Well, you know, for most of us, you know, work is not a solo experience. You know, we work on teams. We have different and specific goals. We have project outcomes that are expected. And we need to collaborate clearly within our teams and across teams to get this done. So working together on teams, you know, can be fruitful. I love that, you know, together we can do more than we can individually, which is why we work together in teams. But, you know, sometimes there's conflict on teams, much like you described early on with you and your partner getting together. So, you know, and we can't always avoid conflict when working with people that have different ideas and approaches and think differently. Yet at the same time, conflict can really lead to great collaboration and, actually, you know, the outcome is better. So what are some of the components or ground rules of collaboration that are essential for healthy communication on teams? You know, how can we reframe the idea of conflict to see the value of different viewpoints to improve?

Jeremie: Yeah. So common language is why it's so important. That's all we do at GiANT. We just create common language for companies to use, because if everyone's using the same language, then it's objective, not subjective. All drama happens through subjectivity, and usually it's a pride or a frustration. “So you know what, Al? I need you to step it up, man. You know? I need you to step it up? Are we clear? I mean, like, you know how many people want your position? Come on, man. Let's go.” Right? Good talk, right? Good talk. So what happened then is Al is in his mind thinking, “Oh, yeah? Well, you need to step it up. In fact, I can—” Versus if I said, “Hey, Al. I’ve noticed sometimes that you're bringing lots of support to your team, but not as much challenge. And then when you get stressed, you bring too much challenge and not enough support. And it’s this Dr. Jekyll/Mr. Hyde. So you’re creating this culture of mistrust. And so I’m just going to call you up.”

Like, challenge a little bit more. Share your expectations earlier. And if you do, then that’s going to really help. And I show them the Support Challenge Matrix visual tool. Then, the visual becomes a mirror. And we always say mirrors don't judge; mirrors reflect reality. So if I can show you a mirror with the visual and tell you a common language that we all agree to, all of a sudden, you look and then you have the aha! “Oh, my goodness. An individual insight led to behavior change,” which then leads to, like, “Oh, my goodness. What's it like to be on the other side of me? Wow.” And then that’s the journey of self-awareness inside business.

Al: Yeah. And self-awareness is key for all of us in the workplace. There's no question about that. Yeah.

Jeremie: The problem is you never graduate from it.

Al: Yeah. And our listeners, there's a key for us, right there. There's always more to learn.

You know, you point out another area that's important in our workplace communication, and that's giving and receiving feedback. And again, for organizations to be healthy, there needs to be a lot of giving and receiving feedback. And we know that people and teams don't always improve without opportunities to learn and grow. You know, in fact, there's the old saying, “Well, you know, what if I invest in all these people and they leave?” and then, you know, of course the response is, “Well, what if you don't invest in them and they stay?” But it's hard to express constructive feedback or critique on a project without being misunderstood. We clearly want excellent results. So how does a leader navigate giving feedback and raising the bar for the quality of work that we're doing?

Jeremie: So, today—every Thursday I work with the University of Oklahoma football team. I was working with the coaches on this today. Because it’s natural, there’s times, there’s a time for everything. But I had one coach that shared, like, he had this player came looking for collaboration, and instead of collaborating or clarifying, he went straight to critique, but it felt, like, critical. Then the player was really hurt, wounded, came back to him, thankfully, and go, “That was just wrong.” And it was. It was wrong. And the coach worked on it. Not the head coach, but another coach.

So the point is critique is different than being critical. Critical is looking, it's being bitter, frustrated, and it's almost revenge oriented. And we're looking for ways to chop you down, cut you down, because we're jealous. There's some hurt in there. Critique is, I want to just make this better. But if you're a feeler, you might need to put Kevlar on. If you're a thinker, you can handle it.

And I always say, I always use an example of, like, “Okay, this is my idea. I'm holding an idea above my shoulder.” A thinker will take an idea and go, “Hey, Al. What do you think of this idea? I really need your help because I’m really close, but you can make it better.” And you go, “Yeah. Have you ever thought about doing x, y, or z?” And all of a sudden, that's critique. And the thinker to a thinker goes, “Great idea. I love that. So helpful.” A thinker to a feeler, a feeler puts the idea right over their heart, and they go, “Hey, what do you think of my idea?” And then the thinker shoots holes in it, and then you see blood, and all of a sudden, the thinker’s like, “Why did you put it over your heart, idiot? That's so dumb. What are you thinking?”

So the point is that you've got to understand the spirit. Is the spirit and nature, is my history shown that I'm for you or against you? And if I have consistently brought high support and high challenge, then there's moments where I really need your critique, even though it might hurt. But I want it because I know your critique is actually fighting for my best. Versus historically, you’ve been critical of me over and over, and here we go again. So your critique is critical because of the history that we have, and I don't feel like you're really wanting it to improve. I feel like you're cutting me down. And you can feel it, right? And there's that feel that happens between critique and being critical. I think that's the hard part of the word critical feedback, because a lot of feelers are like, “I never want critical feedback.” Critique? Yeah, make it better. Help me make this better.

Al: I trust you’re enjoying our podcast today. We’ll be right back after an important word for leaders.

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Al: Now, welcome back with my conversation with Jeremie.

Yeah. And that’s a really—the challenge, many ways, is to put it into a way where it’s critique, you know, to say something that’s critique, not critical.

Jeremie: It depends on your history. So, if you think about, like, if, let’s say, Al, we’ve been in each other’s lives for a long time. What have I shown over the last three years? Have I shown a critical spirit each time? Or have I been pretty consistent with my critique? And the beauty of the communication code is now we’re training it with discernment and discretion, because we’re basically saying, “Hey, I’m not going to get critiqued because critique can do a lot of damage, unless you’re asking for it.”

So I had a situation today. Someone pitched a business to me, a business idea. And I know he’s a feeler, but I also know he knows the language of the communication code. So I’d said, “Hey, Josh. Tell me what you want here.” And I said, “I’m going to celebrate, and I want you to know how much I care about you. I really do. And I’ll clarify. But do you really want critique or collaboration? What are you looking for here?” And he goes, “No, no, no. I know you’re for me. I’m super excited. I think I’ve got this thing. I actually really want your critique.” And I go, “Okay. Really?” And he goes, “Yeah.” And then I sit there, and I circled three things, and I go, “These are the three areas. I think you could make this one, this. That, that. And this, that.” And he literally was like, “Gold. This is gold.” Because I’ve shown a history of being for him, but I used the language that prepared him for critique, and then when I went through it, he was like, “Oh, that wasn’t that bad. That was actually really helpful.”

Al: And that’s what you want, isn’t it, yeah, where you get that “It’s really helpful.” And they’re moving forward quickly and not feeling like they’ve got to put a Band-Aid or a salve over the wound, yeah, right, yeah.

So, we’ve been talking about communication and how important it is in relationships, both at work, and I’m listening to your advice here for my own personal life here, with my wife, you know. But you’ve shared some principles that focus on how to unlock and enhance communication. And you know, the critique versus being critical is just one of those. Sometimes, though, we experience broken trust. And we’ve seen this in work relationships, where leaders have broken trust. And that’s always the challenge: can we reestablish trust so that we can move forward, especially, in a work situation? So if trust in leadership has been broken, your employees may not believe in the actually efforts that communication, that they’re actually sincere. So what would you say to someone listening who feels like they have to do a do-over, a redo?

Jeremie: Yeah. Paul said it well, “So far as it depends on you, be at peace with all men, with all people.” So I usually start with, “Is it me?” Before I go, “Is it Al?” I go, “Is it me?” Like, I have a friendship right now, and it’s deep, deep friendship, but we’re not being friends. We don’t call each other. We don’t—it’s not, we live in the same town. And I’m asking the question, which is, I think, chapter eight or nine in the book, is it worth it? And I'm like, is this relationship worth it? And because I could go back and go, “What's it been like to be on the other side of me for the past three, four years?” And then I could go, “What's it like to be on the other side of him for the last three or four years?” And then I'm thinking to myself, “Are we supposed to?” Or is it just we're amiable, and we love each other, but it's not worth it at this point in time because I'm not sure he's responsive. I know, so, if I'm responsive and he's not, then that could cause a lot of issues.

So communication, back to being a two-way street. You have those people in your life that you have to communicate with every day. You've got relationships and friendships, and then you've got your family. You can't really fire family, right? And it's hard to fire family. So then, you've got these external, long-term relationships and friendships. And so what I've found is, like, so far as it depends on you, be at peace with all people. What can I do to make that relationship really strong? And how do I unlock a relationship? But I can't do 20, so let me focus on one or two. So I'm at a place on all times going, “What one or two relationships can I improve?” And I use the communication code to do it.

And then, I also ask the question, the first two, three chapters of the book talk about cleaning up your past. It talks about reviewing your power plays or reviewing your expectations. It actually gives you almost this journey, this process to go through to get yourself ready to unlock that relationship. But it has to be a two-way street. And if you've had a history of maybe being critical and maybe you did the wounding in the relationship, you have to—it's going to take a long time because they have to see that you're changing. You can't just use words. You have to show with action. And it has to be over a period of time.

And so again, it's just an observation. All of this comes from our own failure. And we're, then, trying to figure out how to package it in a way to help other people not carry on the mistakes we made.

Al: Maybe even an apology in there, Jeremie, would probably make some sense, yeah. To rebuild trust, say, “Yeah, I’ve made a mistake.” Yeah. But then to have them see your own behavior, that it is changing and moving forward. Yeah. That's great. Yeah.

Well, Jeremie, this has been a great conversation. Wow. I love the five Cs that you've outlined at the beginning: celebrate, care, clarify, collaborate, and critique. And then, you know, again, the whole conversation around high support, you know, where that is a support and challenge in a relationship. And I think about one-on-ones, where leaders are having one-on-one meetings every week, every other week or so, and how that's important. So show challenge, show support, and then challenge should be part of a conversation. Then, we talked about conflict and the difference between critique and being critical. We talked about broken trust.

Let me ask you, Jeremie, now that we've had this conversation, what comes to mind that you'd like to add to our listeners, that we've talked about?

Jeremie: So once you understand it, and again, and in the book, it gives—like, some people go, “I have no idea how to celebrate.” It gives so specific ways for people who aren't good at celebration to how to do it. It's not a parade. It doesn't have to be crazy. Just real simple tools. Once you figure that out, what you want to do is you want to then go to the person, that one person that you want to unlock a relationship or you want it to be better. Let's not pick the narcissist, the hardest person in your world. Let's pick someone that's reasonable, that you want to get to the next level. And then, or maybe it's a spouse. So let’s say, Al, in your case, go to your spouse and talk about the communication code. And then build your communication code. Customize your communication-code plan.

So in the case of my wife, Kelly, she's a thinker; I'm a feeler. And she's, in our language in the 5 Voices, she's a guardian, and I'm a connector. And so what happens is, I want her to, first, care by listening to me. Second—I'm sorry. First, clarify. I need her to clarify. Two, I need her to care by giving me her space. But the specific way I want her to clarify is I need to know that she's on the same page with me before she starts collaborating. So I want clarity. I want care. And then, I want collaboration. I don’t really want critique. And I’m not really worried about her celebrating, because she's not a celebrator type. So I'm good with that. So I focus on those first three.

For her, we had a couples retreat last week, 20 couples. We did this exercise. She's, for her, she says, “I want you to care, but care is different. I just need you to listen. And I know I give a lot of details. I just need you to be, just be patient. And then, I need you to care about the people I care about and the things I care about. And I need you to know not look at your phone or look at something else. Then, I'm open for collaboration. I don't really want critique either, even though—" she's like, “—even though I give it, I don't really want it either. So then, if I know that you care, then I know you'll collaborate well.”

Al: Yeah. So you customize it for each person, based on their own communication styles, yeah. Well, that’s great.

The book is Communication Code. The Communication Code: Unlock Every Relationship, One Conversation at a Time. And, you know, our listeners may not know about GiANT. Tell us, just briefly, Jeremie, about GiANT.

Jeremie: Yeah. So what we've done is we've figured out how to—we've created tools around relational intelligence, and we partner with coaches and consultants. We've got roughly close to 1,000 in about 115 countries. And those consultants then take our content, our concepts, our workshops, our programs, and our platform. We have a very inexpensive platform called the GiANT OS Pro, and they take that into organizations to make those organizations thrive. There's always, there's strategy, capital, and people. Most people work on strategy and capital and hope they can hire good people. And we basically have figured out how to develop highly functioning, relationally intelligent team leaders. And those team leaders, then—we call them sherpa—the sherpa, then, become really good at getting their people, the employees, to the next level, because they’re relational and intelligent themselves. So that's what we do. We train coaches and consultants to license our content inside organizations. And it's giantworldwide.com. It's really a fun business model.

Al: Yeah. Fantastic. Well, that’s very helpful.

Well, Jeremie, thanks for your contributions today. I know our listeners have gotten a lot out of it, and I'd encourage them to look at the book. And you've got a—it's a great model, and thanks for describing it. And but most of all, today I want to appreciate, I appreciate your commitment to valuing people and relationships by equipping leaders to communicate well. So thanks for taking your time out today and speaking into the lives of so many listeners.

Jeremie: And conversely, Al, thanks for your work and what you're trying to do as a whole. You're building culture across the globe. We need more Al Lopuses out there. So thank you.

Al: I appreciate that. And again, what you're doing, building leaders, building front-line managers to be more effective. That's oftentimes what organizations are missing. We're on the same page with that. So thanks, Jeremie.

Jeremie: Cheers. Thanks.

Al: Thanks so much for listening to my conversation with Jeremie Kubicek. I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did.

You can find ways to connect with him and links to everything we discussed in the show notes and transcript at workplaces.org/podcast.

If you have any suggestions for me about our podcast and have any questions on flourishing workplace cultures, please email me at al@workplaces.org.

And leaders, if you want to improve your leadership, expand your organization's impact for good, and see future faithfulness in our broader culture, help us achieve our goal to see more flourishing Christian-led workplaces. To help, please share this podcast with another leader or launch a project in your own organization to discover and improve the health of your workplace culture. If you're interested in learning more, go to workplaces.org and request a sample report.

Outro: The Flourishing Culture Leadership Podcast is sponsored by Best Christian Workplaces. If you need support building a flourishing workplace culture, please visit workplaces.org for more information.

We'll see you again next week for more valuable content to help you develop strong leaders and build a flourishing workplace culture.

Al: You won't want to miss next week's episode with my guest, Mike Sharrow. Mike's the president and CEO of the C12 Group, the world's largest peer-learning organization for Christian CEOs, business owners, and executives. And since assuming the role of CEO in 2016, Mike has led C12 to remarkable growth in membership and revenue. So tune in next week to learn about creating and communicating an inspiring vision.