Transcript: Essential Traits of a Thriving Church Community // Steve Macchia, Leadership Transformations, Inc.

Flourishing Culture Leadership Podcast

“Essential Traits of a Thriving Church Community“

March 24, 2025

Steve Macchia

Intro: What if the greatest challenge facing today's churches isn't a lack of vision, but a neglected soul? In this episode, Dr. Steve Macchia shares powerful insights from his book, Becoming a Healthy Church, on how spiritual vitality, deep community, and servant leadership transform churches from the inside out. We'll discuss why leaders, first, must care about their own souls, and how listening and love create authentic relationships, and why servant leadership is essential for church health. Don't miss this opportunity to gain wisdom on building a thriving church culture rooted in grace, trust, and the presence of God.

Welcome: Welcome to the Flourishing Culture Leadership Podcast, your home for open, honest, and insightful conversations to help develop your leadership, your team, and build a flourishing workplace culture.

Al Lopus: Hello, I’m Al Lopus, the co-founder of the Best Christian Workplaces and author of Road to Flourishing, the go-to research-based, Christ-centered guide to building a flourishing workplace culture. And my passion is to build Christian leaders like you to create engaged, flourishing workplaces, where people thrive and organizations make a Kingdom impact. And if you'd like to learn more about me, my book, and opportunities to have me speak at an event, this podcast, or recent articles I've written, I invite you to visit allopus.org—that’s A-L-L-O-P-U-S—dot org. Let’s journey together toward building workplaces where your faith, leadership, and organization flourish.

And I’m delighted to welcome Steve Macchia to the podcast today. He’s the founder and president of Leadership Transformations, Inc., a ministry serving the spiritual formation, discernment, and renewal of church leaders.

Throughout our conversation, you'll hear Steve share about why the health of a church starts with the soul of its leaders. Steve explains how spiritual vitality and personal renewal are essential for pastors and ministry leaders to cultivate a flourishing church community. Secondly, how listening and love create a culture of trust. Discover why deep, intentional relationships built through humility and active listening are the foundation of a truly healthy church or organization, and the power of servant leadership and transforming an organization's culture. Steve unpacks why leaders who prioritize serving others rather than controlling outcomes foster organizations and churches that thrive in unity, grace, and mission.

I think you're going to love this interview with Steve Macchia. But before we dive in, this podcast is proudly sponsored by the Best Christian Workplaces’ Employment Engagement Survey, the largest research-based, Christ-centered employee-engagement survey available. Don't wait. This month is a perfect time to gather vital insights from your employees to assess the health of your workplace culture. As Dr. Steve Macchia emphasizes, it's like a healthy church starts with the soul of its leaders; a flourishing workplace begins with understanding and investing in your people. The Best Christian Workplaces’ Survey provides the clarity and insights leaders need to cultivate a flourishing, trust-filled culture. So, are you ready to transform your culture? Visit workplaces.org to learn more and start your journey to becoming a flourishing workplace today.

And I’d like to welcome our new listeners. We’re grateful you’re here and honored to invest in this time with you by bringing valuable insight-filled episodes like this one.

So, let me tell you just a little bit more about Steve Macchia. Steve's the founder and president of Leadership Transformations, a ministry serving the spiritual formation, discernment, and renewal of leaders and learners since 2003. Steve's the author of numerous books, most recently, the re-release of his best-selling book, Building a Healthy Church. He also has years of experience as a pastor and leader in Christian ministry. For more than 20 years, he's been the director of the Pierce Center for Disciple Building at Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary, where he also serves as an adjunct faculty member in the Doctor of Ministry program.

So, here’s my conversation with Steve Macchia.

Steve, it’s great to have you back on the podcast. And I’m looking forward to our conversation today.

Steve Macchia: I am delighted to be back with you, Al. I hold you in high regard. Love your heart for the church and for parachurch ministries. And congratulations on your excellent book that you have made available so that all of us can flourish in our walk with God and our walk together. So thank you. Thanks for having me.

Al: Well, thank you, Steve. And I’m looking forward to our conversation about your landmark book, Becoming a Healthy Church. And so, you've done a lot of research, and this came out many years ago, and now it's being republished.

So, let's start with a story, Steve, of a church that you've worked with that's grown and is in a healthy, maybe even a thriving place. Share an example of a church that illustrates the principles as we get started in our conversation of health that you've seen.

Steve: This is going to sound very self-serving, but I had nothing to do with it, and that is, it's the church that Ruth and I currently attend. And I'm delighted to be there, and I think it's an example of a healthy church because it's filled with young people. So it's for the young family and for the young professional. It's a church that's got, really, a culture of grace, mostly because the pastor is filled with grace and kindness himself. It's creative. There's a lot of creative folks that come there, musicians and artists and poets. It's a place filled with children and young people so that there's ministry to the next generation. And it's a place that, you know, just we love to come into worship and enjoy fellowship thereafter or before. My wife just came back from a women's retreat from our church, and she said, there's just no competitiveness among these women. There's a real love for each other and a real desire to grow deeper in affection for the Lord, and what happens is that there's a deeper connection to one another. So there's that vertical love relationship with God and that horizontal affection for each other. So we're in a sweet church space right now. It's Church of the Cross in downtown Boston, and it's just been a joy. And I see a lot of the principles of church health and vitality in our own setting. We love our pastor and the team. And we're, like, the oldest people in the congregation, so we feel like we could be everybody's parents or grandparents, but that's okay, too, because I think I'd rather go to a church where the majority are younger than me than older than me, Al. And this gives me great hope for the future of the church.

Al: Yeah. That's great. Yeah, thanks, Steve.

And talking about your book, one of the core areas of your paradigm of church health is spiritual vitality, and I know this has been an area that you've really talked a lot about. And it's essential that the pastor and leadership team are themselves pursuing spiritual health in their personal lives and shared leadership. So while that may seem obvious, as we all know, it sometimes is neglected. And of course, this is true for church leaders, but also for all Christian leaders. So, you know, what do you see as some of the foundational practices for leaders who are attending to their own spiritual health? And of course, you are training spiritual directors, you're training pastors in spiritual formation, so what are some of these foundations that help?

Steve: Well, first of all, I think the problem is that we have a neglected soul, and we're convinced that the soul is indeed the most important part of our attentiveness each and every day, but it's also the most neglected. So what we're trying to do is we're trying to help leaders and teams prioritize the care and the nurture of their soul as their number-one priority, And I think we've let other priorities get in the way. So we may have a physical space that we call our prayer closet or our prayer corner, but we don't frequently visit it. And so my desire is to help leaders get to that prayer closet and that prayer corner, that prayer chair, whatever they call it, prayer cave, to think more ancient, and when they're there to be in the Word and to practice what it means to pray and not do all the talking, but to do some serious listening to the lover of their soul, and then to, really, get into some reflective practices like daily examine or, you know, any of the noticing practices that allow us to see with greater clarity who God is and how He's at work in our world and to really practice a preference for God in all aspects of our daily life and ministry.

As you and I talked about before we pressed the Record button, we really believe one of our adages at LTI is that as the leader goes, so goes the organization; but more importantly, more significantly, as the soul of the leader goes, so goes the leader. We're wanting to plummet deeply into the realm of the soul because we really do feel that most leaders today are neglecting the soul. They're trusting themselves, they're trusting their intellect, their best ideas, and they're not saying, “Lord, are these Your ideas for us, or are these our ideas for us?” And then, we execute those plans and move forward into action. But I'm saying, I think before we do that, we need to press the Pause button and make sure that we're attending to God's voice and God's direction and God's priority for us.

So, I would say practically, make sure you have a prayer closet, make sure you visit it, bring the Bible into that prayer closet, bring your prayer journal into that prayer closet, perhaps even bring an outline for a daily examine, and really look back and look forward under the auspices of the Spirit of God, Who delights in us; loves us; has a great, deep affection for us. And that prayer closet is a place where we can go and express our affections back to God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Al: Every time I hear the description, “prayer closet,” of course, comes right out of the Scripture, and I remember being—I was right out of college in an apartment, and I had a big decision. There was a big decision ahead of me, and it would require a change, moving out of ministry into another role. And I thought, “I need to be in my prayer closet. That's what the Scripture says.” And the only thing that was in my prayer closet was a very full laundry bag, or laundry basket, and I sat in my laundry basket in my prayer closet. It was a very effective time of prayer, no question. Yeah.

Steve: That’s great. Did you keep that? Did you keep that up? Go sit in your laundry basket. That's a great idea. I like it.

Al: I’m glad to say, as a married person, my laundry basket doesn't quite get that full.

But, Steve, you—

Steve: You married up. You married up.

Al: I married up. So, yeah.

You mentioned “noticing practices.” Now, I think I know what that means, but our listeners may not know exactly. I mean, I understand reflective practices, but tell us a little bit what you mean by “noticing practices.”

Steve: For example, the practice of Sabbath itself is a slowing down and a noticing, and stop the work, stop the daily routines, and get into a place where you can really notice God. Journaling is a noticing practice that whether you're writing in your journal or writing poetry or rewriting Scripture or drawing a picture or taking notes, you know, the journal is a place to help you notice. And then, the daily examine is a real noticing, and that is noticing what happened in the day prior, notice when you were most anxious or frustrated or joyful, notice your affections and your emotions. Pray into the areas that you think may have not gone so well or that you were maybe even expressing a sinful behavior, so you want to confess that. And then, to look ahead to the day coming or the season coming. “Lord, how are you inviting me into either a new relationship or renewing a relationship?” and into the work that we're called to do?

So, reflective practices, noticing practices, they're really the same thing. It's anything that you do that helps you to press the Pause button long enough to notice your life with God, that with God, life. It really matters.

And then, when you are there, when you're in that experience with the Lord, you have something to offer to others to be able to say, “Prayer is a struggle. I understand it, because I'm trying my best to pray,” or “Join me in reading this book, or reading this devotional, or reading this prayer guide. Let's do it together, and let's notice God in community.”

So, I just think that's pretty absent, Al. We're kind of doing things on our own, solo. And we're not meant for solo; we're meant for community. We're meant to become best Christian workplaces in every sense of the word, as marriages, as families, as teams, as churches. And that's why I love what you do and have done is that you're raising the standard for us to get to.

And I think in terms of soul care, we're trying to do the same thing. We're trying to raise the standard to say, “Let's show up and meet with God,” because He's there, He's waiting. And He's, like, on the porch of heaven. He's got His eyes on us. All we have to do is come to our senses and turn back home, and He's running our direction. I mean, it's just the spiritual practices in themselves aren't the “be all and the end all.” They are a way to help us become more attentive, a better listener and a better receiver of all that God delights to give to us.

Al: Yeah. We can love because He first loved us and—

Steve: Absolutely.

Al: —being in that setting and that environment helps to really bring the conduit of love through us.

So, you mentioned community. Let's talk a little bit about—certainly, we've talked about, now, spiritual vitality, but you also focus on spiritual community in a healthy church. So share some practical ways that church leaders can build and model relational health—we've talked about spiritual health, but now relational health—and their own interactions as leaders, maybe even within their families. What are some ways that you can share with us?

Steve: I would answer it first and foremost in the word listen. We find that most people do not want to be fixed, but every person wants to be listened to. And so we teach, we actually teach, listening skills, what I would call “pure listening.” And basically, it's, you have the floor. You have three minutes, five minutes, eight minutes, whatever. And all I just—I just want to listen to you. And after listening to you, if you'd like me, I don't have to, but if you'd like me to, I'd like to give back what I heard you say, not what I think you should do with what you said, not fixing you, correcting you, changing your mind, or one-upping you, or competing with you, but instead just to be able to speak back what I heard you say. And then, when you hear me speak back to you what you did say, then you can say, “Wow, you did listen to me. You did. You really gave me that gift.” Whereas when we listen, but then we're preparing the next thing that we're going to say, or we don't like what we're hearing so we want to fix that or yell at someone or scream at…you know.

And in the church this happens as well because the church is filled with know-it-alls. It's not just the pastors that have their, you know, their Masters of Divinity. There are those in the pew and in the board table, they come up, and they're the Masters of Divinity because they've got something to tell you.

But we're not doing much listening, Al, and that's the sad part of the reality of our wider world. Nobody's listening to each other in the wider world, because we've got everybody pinned into where we think they are. And so I've become convinced that a proper witness to Jesus or to each other only comes out of our with-ness. So you have no witness without with-ness. If you speak about a person or a group of people and you think that you're right, all you have is an opinion because you've never really spent the time to truly listen. So this happens in marriages all the time, family life, team life, ministry life, church life. People need to learn how to be quiet and listen and only speak in those contexts when they're asked to speak.

So, I would say the first, most-practical thing to do is to learn how to listen. The second thing is I think we need to learn how to love. And we learn how to love by practicing the gifts of grace that God has given to us that we need to offer to another. We're sinful human beings, and we've got to acknowledge that. We need God; we're desperate for God. So in the context of community, when I'm not listening to you or I'm not in a good space with you, we need to be reminding each other that grace is what matters the most, and we need to be giving each other that gift of grace. I think the third thing that I would say is to understand your own story so that you can empathize with the stories of another. We all have stories. We all have good, bad, ugly, joy-filled, hard seasons of life. You know, it's a mixture. We're very complex beings. And our own stories are very complex, and the stories of the people that surround us are very complex. So I think if we just acknowledge that and be more grace-filled and be better listeners, community life will look much different than it currently does. It's supposed to be, they'll know we are Christians by our love, not by our conflict, not by our mean-spiritedness. But there's a lot of conflict, and there's a lot of mean-spiritedness in the church today, and it saddens me deeply. It grieves me. That's why I love where we are in church today is, you know, we're in a healthy church because there's not all this competitive spirit, there's not, you know, nastiness, none of that. It's not tolerated, but it's not even considered when it's a place of grace and a place of love and a place of joy.

Al: Where the fruit of the Spirit lives, right? That’s a—

Steve: Where the fruit of the Spirit lives and are exhibited. Yeah. We talk about fruit of the Spirit; it's really evidence of the Spirit. That's what the fruit is, is evidence that, oh my gosh, the Spirit of God lives here because there's love and there's joy and there's peace. There's patience, kindness, grace, and the fruit of the Spirit. And so it's just, yeah.

Al: I remember—I love that: listen, love, and understand in your own situation and kind of where you're coming from. But yeah, I remember working with a church, and healthy communication is one of our eight key drivers of employee engagement. And they were saying that, “Oh, yeah. We're going to help, we're going to improve communication because we've got professional communicators.” And I knew what they meant, you know, and that was—

Steve: Yeah.

Al: —they were going to talk more.

Steve: Exactly. Expound more.

Al: Exactly. And I said, “No. That's not the kind of communication that I'm talking about. It's listening—

Steve: Good for you.

Al: —and acting on what you hear.” But, yeah, so. Great input. Thanks, Steve.

You know, another component of healthy churches that you discuss is servant leadership. And now we're really hitting on key things here. So servant leadership. So flesh out, what are some of the essential practices that you see in this kind of church leadership and the implications for leadership development and training?

Steve: I think leaders need to understand that every person in their congregation has gifts and abilities and a call on their life. One of the books I wrote is called Crafting a Rule of Life, and I really believe that everyone has a rule of life already. The question is, is it based around God's priorities for them? So when we talk about servant leadership, we're acknowledging that every person has gifts, every person has the temperament, every person has a vision, a calling in serving others, and we need to help them unpack that. We need to help them discover that. And once they discover it, they're ushered right into the kind of life that I think we all want to live, and that's the abundant life. I believe that the abundant life is available for every single Christ follower today.

And part of what becoming a healthy church is all about is helping every member of the body of Christ identify their particular servant-leadership calling. It may be within the church itself. It may be in the culture, in the wider culture, in the workplace, the marketplace, in a parachurch-ministry setting, or in the neighborhood, or even within a family. Everyone has a calling. Everyone has a gift mix. God hasn't been stingy with some and generous with others; He's been generous with everybody. So let's discover what that looks like, and then, let's bless and send people into the context where that calling matters most.

That's why I say it may be in the church, but it may not be in the church. I think church leaders need to understand that every servant leader in their congregation has a place to give of themselves. So let's not just fill our committees and our boards and even our Sunday-school-teacher roster and think that that's it. No, there's work that goes on outside of the church that we need to be blessing and sending people into.

And I hear that all the time from workplace Christians. You know, it's Christians in the workplace. They want to be acknowledged for the fact that they have a big job to do, and they're in a very secular culture, but they represent Jesus Christ in that culture. And let's equip them, let's bless them, let's pray for them, let's highlight them, and not just be so constricted by, ooh, but are they on a committee at the church? Well, let that go. Let that go. There'll be plenty of people to fill those slots, and perhaps even that person at some point will fill one of those slots. But right now, they may be engaged elsewhere.

Al: Yeah. So you're saying, really, help everyone understand what their gifts are, what their abilities are, what their temperament is. I mean, all of those are key parts to servant leadership, to know how you individually can serve others. Yeah. And John 10:10, yeah, that we might have life and life to the full, life abundantly. Absolutely.

Steve: Exactly. Yeah. And He came not to be served, but to serve and to give His life as a ransom for many. So I like the metaphor of servanthood as leaders. I like the metaphor of a shepherd. I think that's a very Jesus-centered, biblical one. And I like steward as well. So we're servant leaders, shepherding leaders, stewarding leaders. And we see that in Jesus' life, and I hope we can see more and more of it in our lives as well.

Al: Yeah, 1 Peter 5:2, shepherd the flock that God has entrusted to you. Yeah.

So, having a healthy church culture just isn't focused on the upfront, you know. Visible aspects of church leadership certainly is upfront, but there's also wise accountability and administration that goes into creating a church community. So let's dive deeper into the leadership team of a church. Someone who's gifted in teaching and pastoral ministry isn't necessarily the best administration. I think all of us involved in the church over the years see that difference. So what are some of the key factors you see in a church, in a healthy church, as far as including people with different skills on a leadership team?

Steve: Yeah. I think it's twofold, Al. One is the day to day, and the other is the future. So in the day to day, if you're talking about wise administration and accountability, which is one of the traits of a healthy church from my book, that is all about the managerial role of the day to day, because we manage stuff. We lead people, but we manage stuff. So what is the stuff that needs to be managed?

And then, accountability. Who's holding us accountable for doing that, whether it's accountability in financial means. So that's why ECFA is so important, that you and I are both advocates of. You know, Evangelical Council for Financial Accountability. That's an important accountability structure to align with. But even within the congregation, there needs to be accountability at every level. So if I'm a Sunday school teacher, I'm accountable to the person who's in charge of all the Sunday school work. If I'm an evangelist, I'm accountable to the outreach coordinator or outreach pastor. If I'm a musician, I need to be accountable to the people over me who are making sure that our worship and music ministry goes well.

So, it's both the administrative giftedness and the accountability. And it's for the day to day, week by week, as well as, where are we going? What's our plan for the future? Have we discerned the next steps to take in the development of our ministry? And I say this discernment word as opposed to strategic words, because I think discernment needs to lead the way because it's a life of prayer. We're praying to notice God and to notice His invitations for us, and we're leading accordingly. Yes, there'll be opportunity for strategy, but it has to be underneath the rubric of the wider category of discernment because that's what we're called to do. We're called to be discerning leaders. My podcast is The Discerning Leader Podcast, and the reason why I called it that is that that's what I think is the biggest need among leaders today is to become more discerning.

So wise administration and accountability keeps the outward nature of the church alive as well as the internal. One of the traits is also outward focus. We can't live without that, because that's evangelism and social action and caring for the poorest of the poor and reaching out internationally either to those who have come to our shore or we need to go to them. And it's the outward nature of the call that's on us is the fulfillment of the Great Commission. As you go, make disciples of all nations. So that outward thrust of our life in God is what propels us into ministry beyond the walls of the church. And that needs to be held accountably as well, because we're talking about resources; we're talking about people; we're talking about sometimes trips, where we're taking groups of people from the church to another culture, another continent.

So accountability and management matters even as you look at every area of our outward-focused nature of church ministry. So it is important. It's very important. It's not the “be all and the end all.” It's not everything that we do, but we certainly need accountability. I mean, taking a Best Christian Workplace Survey is accountability. It's like, let's listen to each other, and let's hear what the experience is on our team, among our ministry folks, and let's pay attention to that. Let's listen to that. So again, listening comes up, Al, because that's what we really want here. We want to develop listeners. Listen to God; listen to each other.

Al: And Steve, tell us a little bit about the process, so how your book has been in play. You've created a survey. Tell us how you work with churches. And then, I'm interested in your 10 traits, if you’d just list those out for us. And I know that in this edition, you've kind of created and grouped those 10 traits into three core areas that I thought was really inspirational. So how does it work?

Steve: Yeah. The Becoming a Healthy Church book is one of a handful in that series. I wrote Becoming a Healthy Church first, and then I did Becoming a Healthy Church workbook, and the workbook became the church-health assessment tool. And then I wrote Becoming a Healthy Disciple and the small-group study and worship guide for the small group to discuss about what it means to be a healthy disciple. And then I wrote about team, and you and I have talked about Becoming a Healthy Team in past episodes.

But this one, church, is the first one, and it's the one we're celebrating the 25th anniversary of with the reprinting with updates and, as you said, this paradigm. And the paradigm is a visual that helps you to understand as you read that it's not just a linear list of 10 traits, but they actually conjoin with one another. They intersect with each other. And so, when you get to the place where you're wanting to understand more of the health of the church, we look at three main circles, and the circles are definitive of the main priorities.

So the first circle is on the top, and it's a life of worship, and it includes traits one, two, and three, which are God's empowering presence, God-exalting worship, and spiritual disciplines. And so those are three traits that look vertically toward God. They're exclusively about God in our worship, in our empowerment of the Spirit, and in our daily worship, and our prayer closets.

And then, the second circle is our life of community. And in that one, we're talking about learning and growing in community, loving and caring for each other relationally, and the servant-leadership development that we just talked about a few moments ago. Those are all the horizontal, internal-to-church life that we're practicing what it means to be loving; to be kind; to be forgiving; to be grace-filled; to be filled with the Holy Spirit; to be empowering people for service in the life of the church as teachers, as leaders, as board members, committee members, et cetera, et cetera. It's all within the church.

All of that, then, prepares us for the outward nature of the church, which includes the outward focus, which we talked about: evangelism, worldwide mission, care for the poorest of the poor; and developing ministries that are within our reach: the Crisis Pregnancy Center, the Salvation Army, those people that are doing good work for the socially impoverished in our midst.

And then, it's wise administration and accountability, and then, it's outward networking and leadership that is pulling it all together, holding it all together in the context of the outward nature of the church. It has four traits that are attached to it, and it's the outward focus, the wise administration and accountability, stewardship and generosity, and networking with the body of Christ.

So all 10 of these traits are pictured in this visual paradigm so you can almost picture it continuously moving and being held together in the center by the discerning presence and power of God's Spirit, knowing that we are His; we are not our own. We belong to Him, and therefore, our life comes from that center circle of vitality in our walk with God and in our service together to the body of Christ and to the wider world.

So the Church Health Assessment Tool, CHAT, is available online for all churches to use. Hundreds and hundreds of churches have used this. We've got data from thousands of individuals that have sat at computers and filled out their church-health assessment form for their particular church. And then, they get a follow-up report that tells them how they're doing in these 10 areas of church life and ministry.

And thankfully, after 25 years, it still is relevant. All of these traits remain relevant because they're principle based; they're not program based, and they're not personality based. They're all around these 10 major principles of church life and health and vitality.

Al: I encourage our listeners, all of which attend a church probably, in one way or another, that's something to consider, for sure.

Steve: Yeah. Healthychurch.net is the place to go.

Al: Okay.

So, Steve, as you know and you've mentioned, Best Christian Workplaces focuses on flourishing workplaces and works with churches to create work environments for their staff that are truly flourishing. So in your work with churches, as you're working with the congregants as well as with the staff, what ways do you see the impact of a healthy staff culture on the overall health of the church culture? What’s the—

Steve: Essential.

Al: Yeah.

Steve: Absolutely essential. Without a healthy leadership culture, you're not going to have a healthy church. You're just not. Period. End of story. We need to be a team. We need to learn how to be the body of Christ. In fact, I've been saying to pastors and leaders recently, “What's your favorite metaphor, biblical metaphor for church? Is it “body of Christ?” Is it “bride of Christ?” Is it “family of God?” What is it? What's your favorite biblical metaphor?” Mine happens to be “oaks of righteousness.” In the book of Isaiah, they shall be called the people of God. They shall be called oaks of righteousness, a planting of the Lord for the display of His splendor. So on the cover of this 25th-anniversary edition, we actually have a flourishing oak tree that's on there; and in the Healthy Disciple materials, there's an acorn; and for the Healthy Team, there's a branch with some acorns on it; because that's the image, that's the metaphor that I'm trying to raise up of what it means to be a healthy church. And you can't be a healthy church without healthy teams of leaders. And whether that's the staff or the board, if the board and the staff are not getting along and do not have grace and strong listening skills and are discerning the move of God's Spirit among them and through them, you're not going to have a healthy church. It's just not going to happen. So these do go together. They’re hand in glove in so, so many ways.

Al: Amen, Steve. That's all I can say. Yeah, for sure. And when you've got a flourishing workplace and then a flourishing community, church community, then you're making a true difference in the world.

So, well, Steve, you've been working with churches, you know, helping to transform churches now for several decades, a couple of decades.

Steve: That's true. I'm often the old guy now in the room.

Al: Yep, yep. I’m the usually oldest in the meetings, but, anyway, yeah.

So with this broad range of experience, what changes are you seeing and what challenges are you seeing for the healthy church? What aspects of church health are timeless, and what's new, maybe, for this generation of church leaders that you're seeing and working with?

Steve: That's a great question, Al. I wish we had all day to chat about it because we could go back and forth. And I do believe that the 10 traits of a healthy church are timeless. So every church, even today, with all that is going on in the church, this would be a good book for church leaders to review together and to talk about and maybe even assess the health of their congregation. But what I'm noticing as it relates to this new generation, the next generation, is an incredible focus on relational, relationships. It's really all about relationships. And it can be skewed left by their openness to, like, anything and everything. And they don't want to be judgmental. They want to be relational, which means to be kind to everybody, accept everybody's lifestyle and way of doing even ministry, with the context of the church. So, liberalities are concerning to me.

On the other hand, where I see health and vitality is a movement back to the biblical text, back to theology, back to practicing what we know to be true, not just speaking of it, but actually living it. And so the work that I've been doing for 20-plus years with seminary students gives me the greatest hope of all, because this next generation is filled with people that are really taking the Gospel seriously. They really do want to be led by the Spirit. They want to be in the biblical text. They want to teach the biblical text. Sometimes what we're noticing is some of these young pastors, they'll preach for 45, 50 minutes, and they're studying the Scriptures big time, and the people in the church are loving it. So I have a mixture of concern and hope. And I think that our generation, your generation and my generation, we need to get out of the way. We need to pass the baton. We need to give things over to this new generation, but not abandon them. Still be available to them, help them, answer questions. They still want to be mentored. They still want to be led. And I think if we have their best interests in mind, we can help. We can still participate as active and engaged leaders, mentors, prayer warriors.

And then, in terms of all the problems, the complexities of life today, you know, we've let politics into the church. I don't think we should have. We've let disagreements related to COVID, and we've let that into the church, and I don't think we should have. I mean, there's so much division, and, frankly, hatred that's existing in churches today that shouldn't. That's not where all of this belongs. And again, to use that term cancel, we do cancel. We just sort of dismiss each other. And that's not what God wants. That's really not what the Lord Jesus was all about. So we need to come back home, to the embrace of God, come back home to the priorities of God, Jesus himself.

I've been watching The Chosen. I love The Chosen because it's just filled, it's rich with emotion and attachment to relationships, to Jesus. And yeah, that's what I dream of, Al. That's what I'd love to see the church become more like.

Al: You know, I think all of us are saying, yeah, relationships, you know, it's all about relationships, going forward. And of course, when we follow the Scripture, relationships seem to go better.

Steve: They do. Go figure.

Al: Funny thing about that. Well—

Steve: Funny thing about it. God is a relational God. He doesn't make us to live in isolation. He wants us to be in community with one another, as dirty and confused or lopsided as it can be.

Al: Yeah. Reflecting on your three circles: worship, community, and outward focus. And community is such an important part. We're seeing that in our research, also, in inspirational leadership, the key driver of workplace culture. And leaders need to be able to create a community. You know, we talk about quality of fellowship. We talk about leaders with integrity and that communicate in an open and honest and also build trust. And yeah, so those are keys of community as well.

Steve: It’s all about trust. Without trust, there is no team. Without trust, there is no friendship. Without trust, there is no marriage. Trust is essential. It's the central ingredient.

Al: Well, Steve, we’ve learned so much from our conversation today. Thanks. It's really been exciting to go back and talk about just the nature of a thriving church, like you described, that you and your wife attend. Isn't that exciting? And how, yes, we need to be taking care of our souls, and we don't often talk about souls enough, but it is a very unique part of who we are, and it's a unique and separate part of who we are that will last for eternity. So let's take care of our soul, and making sure we get into our prayer chair or our prayer closet or sit in our full laundry basket or whatever it is.

Steve: That’s right. I love the laundry basket. I’m going to steal that one. That’s a great illustration.

Al: But then, in community, as you talked about listening and loving and understanding, really, our own situation and our own uniqueness, and servant leadership. And your 10 traits of a healthy church, and thanks for going through those. We've learned a lot. So Steve, this has just been great.

Is there anything you'd like to add that we've talked about, kind of a bottom line or a way to conclude our conversation?

Steve: The bottom line is pursue an intimate, ever-deepening walk with God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. There's nothing that's more important than that. And if we can all really pledge to each other that we're going to prioritize the care of our soul, we'll be in much better, much different place as the body of Christ. So I just want to urge everyone who's hearing our voice today to pray, to be in the Word, to focus afresh on the quality of life that God is inviting you into. And then, just say yes, say yes to the Lord in all that He's inviting you into. And you will live the abundant life. And everything will stream out of that central place where we're growing and deepening and responding to God's initiatives over and over and over again.

Al: Well, thanks, Steve. You're speaking truth into all of our hearts and encouraging us. So thanks so much for your contributions. And most of all, I appreciate your commitment to the health of the local church so the Gospel can be made known. So thanks for taking your time out today and speaking into the lives of so many listeners.

Steve: Thank you, Al. God bless you, brother.

Al: Thank you so much for listening to my conversation with Steve Macchia. I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did.

You can always find ways to connect with him and links to everything we discussed in the show notes and transcript at workplaces.org/podcast.

And if you have any suggestions for me about our podcast or have any questions on flourishing workplace cultures, please email me, al@workplaces.org.

As Dr. Macchia shared, a flourishing church or organization starts with the health of its leaders and the strength of its relationships. When we prioritize spiritual vitality, active listening, and servant leadership, we create cultures where people thrive and God's mission advances. And if you're ready to take the next step in cultivating a flourishing workplace, start by assessing your culture with the Best Christian Workplaces’ Employee Engagement Survey. Visit workplaces.org today to begin building a healthier, more engaged team that reflects God's love and purpose.

So, keep listening to our weekly podcast as we continue to learn from leaders who are proven inspirational leaders exhibiting Christian character and excellence in their leadership. Next week, I'll be talking with John MacDonald, the head guy at the T Bar M Camp.

Outro: The Flourishing Culture Leadership Podcast is sponsored by Best Christian Workplaces. If you need support building a flourishing workplace culture, please visit workplaces.org for more information.

We'll see you again next week for more valuable content to help you develop strong leaders and build a flourishing workplace culture.