Transcript: How a Healthy Board in Africa Built Healthy Workplace Culture // Victoria Mupwaya, Miracle Life Family Church and Rhema Bible Training Center

Flourishing Culture Leadership Podcast

How a Healthy Board in Africa Built Healthy Workplace Culture

February 6, 2023

Victoria Mupwaya

Intro: Are the keys to building a flourishing culture similar across the world? Well, listen in today as I talk with a leader with one of our flourishing mission partners in Lusaka, Zambia. Her words of wisdom will inspire you today.

Welcome: Welcome to the Flourishing Culture Leadership Podcast, your home for open, honest, and insightful conversations to help develop your leadership, your team, and build a flourishing workplace culture.

Al Lopus: A flourishing organization includes inspirational leadership and a healthy board governance. Effective leadership teams bring together a variety of strengths to accomplish the mission of God that God has given to them. And churches and Christian organizations, some board members bring strategic skills developed in marketplace settings. Today on the Flourishing Culture Leadership Podcast, we're going to consider how leaders create an environment for engaged employees.

And I'm delighted—and this is an unusually positive opportunity—I'm delighted to welcome Victoria Mupwaya to the Flourishing Culture Leadership Podcast today. Victoria is on the board of Miracle Life Family Church and Rhema Bible Training Center in Lusaka, Zambia. She's the CEO of VSM People Solutions and the former head of human resources for Barclays Bank in Zambia. Victoria, welcome.

Victoria Mupwaya: Thank you, Al. I'm really happy to be on the program, excited to talk to you and share some insights of my journey with Miracle Life and with Rhema Bible Training Center.

Al: It’s a joy for me because I remember starting working with the church many years ago and to see the progress that you've made, and I know you had a huge impact on this as well.

So, Victoria, you serve as a board member and also on the H.R. committee of Miracle Life Family Church and also the associated Rhema Bible Training Center in Lusaka, Zambia. So share with the listeners some of the distinctives of this ministry.

Victoria: Thank you, Al.

Well, the church, Miracle Life Family Church, and Rhema Bible Training Center have seen great growth both in numbers and, I must say, also in the depth of spiritual formation. We have seen over the years just the process of members of the church being conformed to the image of Christ for the glory of God and for the sake of others. And I think, importantly, as a church, which started in 1998 with 17 people, we are happy to say we are now seeing numbers on average 3,700 to 4,000 in attendance every Sunday. And this is not just a number, but then, importantly, we are seeing the growth, a foundation of children. We have on average 900 children coming over, and these days we’re even hitting above 1,000 on a Sunday.

And I think, from the Rhema Bible Training Center, which opened the doors in 2011 and has since had 997 students graduate, I think very key, Al, is that these graduates, the 997, are from 94 different churches. So it is not just Miracle Life Family church, but we are a center now that is feeding into the country and beyond. We've had a number of students come from neighboring countries. And from the graduates, more than 100 of them have been pastors.

So this ministry, I see that as we evolve, I see also the growth. We are on a growth trajectory, and very important, that growth has, over the last three years, the church embarked on a building campaign that saw an inclusion of chapel, warehouses, extension of offices, and the next-generation facilities for the children, youth, and young adults.

But I think it's important to state that buildings are merely facilities. But what we are positioning ourselves as the church is to influence generations to come. We are positioning ourselves for the growth of the body of Christ for years to come. And we would be the generation that prepared that.

Al: That’s fantastic. And I think about the church and the growth you're seeing there, but how it's probably fueled by having leaders in place, leaders from the Bible college that you've got, the Training Center, that are really helping to fuel that growth with additional pastors and leaders in the church. And it's so exciting to hear how many countries that have been involved. Wow.

Well, that excites me, Victoria.

Victoria: Absolutely.

Al: But what excites you? What excites you about the way God is moving through this ministry?

Victoria: I see—well, the excitement for me is threefold. I see that what we have put on paper as the vision for our church is coming to pass as we speak. I see that what God placed in the founders of the church, we are able to see that the church vision, that God's Word reigns supreme, and it's taught clearly by our senior pastors. And we have a pipeline of associate pastors. Important that there’s a leadership succession, that we continue to grow leaders within the church. The growth of these associate pastors and of the other leaders within the ministry of the church and Rhema Training Center was very evident in 2022, when our senior pastors were away most of the time in this year. Unfortunately, Pastor Haley, one of our senior pastors, had cancer, and she had her treatment in the U.S. of A. And we can only thank God for the healing, that today she’s cancer free. And then what was important in the period of absence from February to, let me just say in November, December, was that we were able to test the succession. We were able to test their absence and just be able to grow other leaders, and then, importantly, also see the gaps as areas of growth. And we've been able to just thank God and see that as a church we have evolved in our leadership growth.

I'm also very excited, Al, when I—I think I did speak about we all are aware of COVID and the years that we've just come, 2020 and 2021, 2022. Globally, countries were hit by COVID and the effect of it. For us as a church, we were able to fully meet the requirements of our operations and importantly, to even bless other churches, other pastors that needed help. And the movement to remote and hybrid work model through that period really challenged our work culture and the systems of work. And there was a lot of learning and relearning that had to happen, Al, to be able to just bring us to where we are today.

So I think—I'm just excited at the growth that happened, even just challenging our systems, be it from a performance-management front, and then just the culture of being able to work away from home, testing our productivity, and just be able to see that we move away from presentism in terms of just the hours on the job to a focus of output.

Al: Hmm. Wow. Fantastic. Wow. Those are a lot of things to be excited about. I love, you know, the focus of the pipeline of leaders, that's fueling your growth, how that was tested, yeah, as one of your founders—well, one of your key leaders, senior leaders—had cancer. And thank goodness, yeah, as you say, she's back. But the leadership has been tested. You've got a pipeline. You've got succession in place. You’ve learned from COVID.

Well, Miracle Life has been participating in the Employee Engagement Survey with the Best Christian Workplaces now for seven years and has seen steady improvement over time. And you've been certified as a best Christian workplace for the last four years. And how has this commitment to employee engagement been reflected in the priorities of the board and of the church leadership, Victoria?

Victoria: Our priorities at board and management levels have been substantially influenced by the Best Christian Workplace Institute's annual Survey. Very key and excitement for us in being certified as a best Christian workplace for the last four years. That's for us a milestone that we've had our eyes focused on.

And I must state here that from a board perspective, the Miracle Life Family Church and Rhema Center, when we meet as an executive team and the management team also when they meet, they review the findings. These findings have been brought into the board. It has revealed problems and perceived problems in the different departments and ministries that we were totally unaware of. And I think these insights are critical for going forward and being able to just manage people and where we are going as an organization.

It has also influenced how teams are managed. And it's been critical in making sure that the results and the feedback that come out from that process are fed into the many different areas, including the hiring practices, including how an employee experiences management, how they experience just their entire life cycle as an employee.

And also, we've made sure that when these results are brought into the board, our interest as a board collectively is that we're able to continuously change, how are we continuously pursuing excellence? What do we do with these results that will impact into a change that is felt in the different levels of the organization?

Al: Yeah, I love that question. You know, how do we pursue excellence? And having data helps with that process, doesn't it? And I love your comment, and it's insightful, about it helps to identify not only strengths, but you said problems and perceived problems. Describe that just a little more and maybe even an example of… I think everybody knows, well, their perceived problems may not be real problems, but…

Victoria: Yes. I think it is important that perceived problems are actually communicated and discussed because a perceived problem may be seen by one party as something that is not what it is, and that can only be cleared—I think the clarity of what it is is based on communication, and the Survey provides that clarity.

What I love about the Best Christian Workplace Survey is just that it is anchored on scientifically based culture drivers. It takes away the guessing. It takes away—that clarity is what's required from both the employee and those that are managing the employees.

Al: Exactly. Well, so, what's the benefit of continuing to survey employees to work on building a flourishing workplace culture over time? And, you know, as a trained human-resource leader, I'm really interested in your thoughts on that.

Victoria: I definitely can see that the benefits—you get to set a benchmark. What you can't measure, you can't control in management. I think that's the principle that most of us agree to. So what this Survey and the measuring of the Engagement Survey is it gives you the ability to have trend analysis. You will have—for us that have been able to do this for four years, we can actually sit and look at, what was our baseline when we started the Surveys, and where are we now? And so when we measure it and say we are improving, we can actually point to the drivers of it, in which areas, and the quantum.

And important, also, what I see as the benefits is a much-needed building of trust, transparency, and just a positive work environment. We've been able to actually experience this as Miracle Life Family Church and Rhema Bible Training Center. We can see employees that are now committed. They understand how the Survey works. They understand that when they communicate, what comes out as a result and feedback is appreciated by the leadership. And then, also, it helps create solutions that are fit to our reality and helps us, then, come up with the right strategies to deal with factors such as employee retention.

Al, let me just emphasize this: there may be many solutions in the marketplace that are not fit for your reality. And what I see is with the Survey, the fact that this is information coming from each and every member of staff and employee, given so in an environment that they feel they're free to do so, they are free to voice, and it's anonymous, it comes out, and we're able to use that information for even other areas, such as strategic planning and development, that it fits in as inputs.

And then, we're also looking at using, at identifying it's in areas of improvement that we are, then, also putting into action plans to enhance employee performance and to empower teams. There's a sense of ownership that employees get with understanding that we are part of this process and, therefore, we want to be part of the solutions. So that empowers the teams. And you do see that it lowers turnover. We have seen it. We've been able to see it and live through that, the lowering of turnover. And, of course, that has other benefits such as overall better employee health because you have less stress. People feel they're able, they own their voice, and they feel that they actually have a voice.

And in the long run, I think we as a board, the interest is that we, then, become an employer of choice. And when we're looking at attracting talent and being able to bring talent on board or even returning them once they've joined us, that brand is very important. You can actually not put value on it in the marketplace.

Al: Yeah. Those are great benefits, Victoria. Thanks. Yeah. As you say, setting a benchmark, being able to actually measure and manage—you can manage what you measure. But the trust and transparency, that seems to be a theme that comes back to us over and over again, how after several years, it's actually trusted and appreciated by employees that they have a chance to, in a structured way, give feedback. Just great. And then, of course, lowering turnover and the financial savings that you experience is outstanding.

Well, you know, you've got a distinguished career in human-resource leadership and mainly banking and environmental-management industries. Share with us how you've experienced employee engagement in the marketplace. And we've even talked about that a little bit because you've used my previous firm, Barclays, to do your employee-engagement survey. So how have you been involved in measuring employee engagement at Barclays, and maybe even other experiences? What have you experienced in helping employees thrive in a business setting, in a banking setting, as you also apply this to ministry? Do you see some similarities?

Victoria: Absolutely. In the marketplace, what I did experience—and I think I'll speak specifically on my last corporate job, which was director of H.R. in Barclays Bank for the country. And I was fully responsible for the measurement of employee engagement. We did carry out a survey, and this was administered by a third party who we've already identified, Willis Towers Watson, and this was done across all Barclays Africa countries at the time. And this participation was voluntary, and what was key was to ensure as the lead person to highlight the benefits of the survey and to encourage participation. And this was really to ensure that colleagues see the benefits of it, and you would have to be able to explain it in town halls, different engagements, whether it is just when you are having smaller teams and having breakfast maybe and just having the H.R. business partners meets the different business units. So then, the feedback from the survey would be channeled through focus-group discussions. Very, very key because at that point, you're driving ownership, where they feel that we own not just what we are giving as solutions or as feedback, but then, we are part of developing these action plans that will become how we drive the business going forward.

And the best results, as I saw them, were always through collective efforts, and we would engage key stakeholders such as the unions. We have very active unions. And you would make sure that this is something that is part of the colleague engagement. It is planned, it's scheduled, and they are part of encouraging, even the membership, that you are looking for ways of providing feedback to management, providing feedback to the board. And so they were a critical stakeholder in this whole engagement.

And then in general, I think I would speak also in general on the measurements of employee engagement, my experience over the years. And for me, I see that the best practice would be to focus on the holistic employee experience throughout the employee life cycle. So you are not just positioning it should be done as an event at some point, but trying to find ways of ensuring that you have employee cycle feedback, for instance, obtained through candidate feedback when you are recruiting. And then, at the onboarding stage also, you could also have employee-engagement feedback. There's also training. How do you leverage on getting some feedback of the experience that they get from those processes?

And then, of course, the one that I think is commonly used is at exit level and the exit process. But then, multi-rater assessments on performance, for instance, and development evaluations, I think these are also a very good way of measuring engagement. And I used all these in the different stages of employee life cycle.

Al: Wow. Those are great experiences. And I love how you mentioned action plans drive the business forward. Also, that you are working with unions and having them on board with the employee-engagement-survey process. We don't see much of that in the Christian employee experience. But also, then, focusing on the employee experience and getting feedback at key points of the employee life cycle, from recruiting, onboarding, training, exiting, and especially for performance reviews and multi-rater feedback. Those are great, great experiences.

Well, you know, I came out of the marketplace much like you did, and for now over 20 years working with Christian organizations, and I've seen some similarities and some differences as we've worked together.

Victoria: Yes.

Al: So from your point, Victoria, describe some of the differences and similarities for employee engagement in a marketplace setting versus, you know, what most of us experience in a ministry setting. And, of course, we have a number of Christian-owned businesses that listen to our podcast as well. So they’d be interested in this, for sure. So, what are some of the differences that you’ve seen, and similarities?

Victoria: Yes, I think I'll start with the similarities. And what I see is that organizations have evolved to the point where they are pursuing having structures, standardizing policies, and to be able to guide them in what they achieve. And it is also a common goal to pursue learning and growth. It may not be that structured in, say, the Christian-owned or ministry setting, but it's definitely there. People do pursue learning and growth.

The talent-management aspect, I see that as much as it's similar, you do still get it more structured in the marketplace, and I think because largely you're talking about numbers. If you are talking about marketplace organizations, the majority would be talking about thousands of employees or hundreds of employees. So the structure is very important.

And then strategic planning and management similarities. Also, every organization, and I see this even in the Christian organizations, Miracle Life Family Church, for instance, Rhema, the planning and strategic planning is a very key phase of management. And what I see on the next point, I'm not sure whether this is something that would be said to be global, but I can speak of it from the marketplace in my country and both in Miracle Life Family Church and Rhema, it is the discomfort with dealing with conflict, and this could be even taken to managing underperformance, for instance. Just having that conversation. You will see that line managers, for instance, or ministry heads, would rather take that discussion and transfer it to H.R. to say, “Human Resource, can you manage this?” and not on the conversation. So I see that the similarities, I've dealt with it in both ministry setting and marketplace.

From the differences, I see the performance management in the marketplace setting will normally incorporate robust reward and compensation policies that will include bonus schemes, share incentives. And these are really necessary because there’s stiff competition in the marketplace, and you see that there’re talent wars to be able to get the best people on board. So they drive, and they always have bonus schemes, share incentives, and many other forms of compensation, more so on the financial than non-financial incentives. Yes.

And what, then, I see as a difference is in the ministry setting, we've had to work on the culture and the belief that being a church would mean the standard can be lowered, which would mean also inefficiencies and underperformance can be condoned. But, Al, this is the total difference. If you look at, it goes against Colossians 3:23-24, which says whatever you do, do it heartily as unto the Lord and not to men. So therefore, it demands excellence, and then it demands, you know, accountability. It demands having authentic conversations. It demands being brutally honest, even to yourself, on how you are performing.

Al: I'd say, “Preach it, sister.” Absolutely. You know, a friend of ours, Mike Sharrow, of C12, describes it as sloppy agape. Too oftentimes in Christian organizations, you know, there seems to be, okay, we can have a lower standard. We don't need to strive for excellence. But even the scripture that you mentioned describes the importance of striving for excellence. God's creation is excellent. And so our work should be to strive for that.

Al: I trust you’re enjoying our podcast today. We’ll be right back after an important word for leaders.

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And now back to today’s special guest.

In your experience in the church and the Training Center, do you hear people saying, “Oh, gosh, you know, we don't want to be corporate. We don't want to have these policies. We don't want to have this talent-management system. We don't want to have, you know, really, you know, effective planning and management. That's corporate. You know, this is a church.” Do you get much feedback around that?

Victoria: No. Honestly, we've been very embracing of structure having standard operating procedures. And I think just recognizing that we would have to have order in the way we do things and then a benchmark on the standard. I think that is a common place that every employee I think starts from. And I think that maybe comes from the onboarding, the orientation, when they come on board. There's that's common understanding that this is what we are going to achieve. But I think in the past the culture would be challenged when it comes to, you are underperforming, or something has happened and there's a disciplinary issue that needs to be addressed. It's at that point that forgiveness becomes the key issue, that shouldn't we be embracing forgiveness? Shouldn't we be looking at this as in this is a church, and really you cannot take action.

Al: Well, let's talk about board governance. The board has oversight responsibilities, and the leadership team carries things out day to day. You even mentioned that the way the Survey reports happen, you look at it from a board standpoint, and the leadership carries it out. So how does the board set the tone for general human-resource practices in your experience here with the church and the Training Center?

Victoria: So in general, a board would set the tone through the effective recruitment and performance management of the CEO of any organization. That would be the start point. In our case as Miracle Life Family Church and Rhema Bible Training Center, in the past years, since we've had our senior pastors in those positions for some time now and we thank God for that, it has been through supporting the senior pastors in the delivery of their work.

Now, the board oversight is done through ensuring that this clarity in their responsibilities and these responsibilities do reflect the changing demands of the role. It is important, even in churches, to understand that change is constant, and are we really evolving? Are we looking at these responsibilities on the job that it is addressing those changes that we're facing?

And then importantly, also the timely and continuous conversation on performance. And this I think the senior pastors know that we are, as a board, we are there to support them. We set the tone that every employee in the organization, whether it is the church or whether it's the Training Center, they know that everyone is held to the same standard, and the board ensures that is done. One of our values as a church, very key, is excellence, that we will serve with excellence. And that should cut across everything that we do.

And then, by ensuring also that capacity building takes place to support their learning and their growth. So we as a board have made it very clear that this has to be measured. We need to define it. And as we start to have those conversations, whether it's beginning of the year, it is really, what does growth look like for you, even in your role as a senior pastor, as associate pastor? That is key. The board ensures that conversation is held. And I'm lucky to sit in it. I'm part of it in driving it, with the senior pastors, the board chair, myself, we will have that conversation.

And then, very clearly we will also include a holistic approach, which will cover also their wellness. And we've made it a point, Al, that this is even on paper, that the medical reviews, the annual medical reviews are undertaken, weekly days off to make sure that they have rest away from the church. Part of the burden would be to always have the church with you 24/7, seven days a week. And yes, we love you, you know, the church and you're carrying it as a senior pastor or as a pastor. But there’s need to rest. And you see the burnout from most pastors heading a church as big as ours, that we as a board have insisted that they will have a day off; they'll have sabbatical leave; there’ll be annual leave that must be observed. And then, the other things such as fair compensation and benefits, those are the things that we look out for and ensure that they have.

Al: Fantastic. Yeah. I really love that so well, so much. You know, focusing on, as you said, that board role, focusing on CEO performance and review, but actually playing a key role in supporting your leadership, to set the tone by serving with excellence and making sure that's throughout the organization and focusing on the wellness and well-being of your church staff, and medical reviews, even, for your leaders, days off, annual leave, sabbaticals. Yeah, just great, important insights. Yeah. Thank you so much, Victoria.

So, how can your board empower the Miracle Life leadership team to carry out their roles in direct management?

Victoria: Yes. This is a key aspect of any board, and we as Miracle Life Family Church and Rhema Training Center board recognized this as a key driver in achieving the goals that we need to achieve. And this is done through the development and the embedment of an appropriate organizational culture that will support the attainment of those goals. It is important that the board sets the tone of this positive culture by understanding the organization itself beyond the boardroom. If we are detached from it, we will make decisions that do not reflect the best interests of the organization. So we being a Christian organization, for instance, I serve in the connection groups, so I'm a member of a connection group, and I also serve, over the years, I've moved from being a connection group leader and host in my home and then moved further to a zone leader, and now I'm coordinating. So when we talk about connection groups, I have walked the talk. And the various board members serve in different ministries within the church. I think that is critical that we’re able to serve, whether it is as an usher or whether you are serving in the prayer ministry. And we have different board members bringing their giftings and skills into those areas.

And it is important, also, that we ensure that there's greater autonomy against bureaucracy, and management is able to make decisions in real time, you know. So we test that. It is critical that we as a board ensure that straight through communication, coming right from the top down, and down going up.

And then, one other way that we've been able to empower the leadership team is from the mentoring front. And I think this is one thing we have done very well as a church. We have been able to be involved and stay away from the typical, “This is the board, and we act more as strict headmasters or some supervisory body.” But we have instead focused on being partners that are empowering the management team.

So, for instance, I'll give you an example. I have led the mentoring process for the H.R. director for Miracle Life Family Church and Rhema Center from the time she was appointed, and I have provided her with other professional resources and H.R. experts to help grow her in her role. And this is done with an oversight periodically on a quarterly basis. We meet, and we agree on what growth looks like, what are some of the milestones she's focused on, and then I give feedback. And it's been an interesting journey and very fulfilling, absolutely fulfilling.

And I must say, Al, that has also helped us because it's been replicated. It's not just myself, but for instance, the head of the finance committee of our board has been supporting the finance director. We had high turnover in that area, and part of it was to stabilize that area by having very strong leadership from the board level.

Al: That's great. Well, Victoria, what challenges is the leadership team now facing as they continue to build a workplace culture that's flourishing at Miracle Life and at Rhema Training Center?

Victoria: It was only in our last Survey that every department crossed the flourishing threshold. I think very key to note that. We realized that different managers managed with different levels of competence. We have invested more time in the coaching of managers, the mentoring to help every employee at Miracle Life and Rhema Bible Center. I think this continues. It’s a journey. It is important to look at it as a journey and not a destination.

And another challenge we have seen was that all staff understand that tough conversations, honesty, correction, and accountability are for their good and the good of our mission as a church, and to just avoid it being a personalized discussion. And it's nothing personal, but then just looking at, what is our purpose collectively? Let's focus on what the purpose is. And so there's been growth, I think, at every level. The ability now to understand that tough conversations are necessary.

Al: Yeah. And let me say congratulations to have a flourishing workplace culture in every area of the church and of the Training Center. That's just fantastic.

Best Christian Workplaces serves in a variety of cultures, and yours is one of them. And we know there's a common core of employee-engagement attributes, and we understand that some priorities vary with the local context. And in your experience, you've probably seen variations across countries and regions. Are there some aspects of employee engagement that are unique to Zambia that you found? And what are some of the common threads across cultures in creating flourishing workplaces?

Victoria: What I see, Al, as common threads across cultures and creating flourishing workplaces is just purpose-driven work, you know. And you will see that once you have clarity on what it is you're supposed to achieve, that is very key in getting everyone to understand how they contribute to it from their role.

And then, there's also the second one would be confidence and trust in leadership. Inspiring leadership, very, very key. Authentic leadership, very, very key.

And the third would be opportunities for development. I think everyone recognizes that they need to develop, and those opportunities or career paths must be defined. One should be able to see themselves growing within that workplace. And I think that's been one of the very key thread.

Organizational communication, Al, I think that one is a big one, because once communication, you lose the clarity of it, the effectiveness of it, that's when you start to get the examples we gave of perceived issues, because there should be clarity in communication.

And then, recognition and reward. I think consequence management either way, with a positive, negative recognition, everyone wants to feel valued for the contribution that they bring to the team.

And these threads, I see them, that they are common across cultures.

What, then, would be something that I would single out as an aspect of employee engagement that is unique to Zambia? I struggled with this question just when you posed it here. And I’m thinking, “Okay, what would be unique?” But then, however, working in a global organization like Barclays, for instance, the global H.R. decisions were viewed in the context of the national culture and legislation. Therefore, as much as you would have standard engagement drivers, for instance, as the H.R. director, mine would be to define that in the context of how it would be understood in Zambia. And for us as Zambians, we're very relational. We value relationships. And therefore, even your word as a leader, for instance, that trust should be there. Once that is broken, people question that relationship. So from an engagement point of view, we would be looking at, how authentic are these relationships that I've built? Yes.

Al: Yeah. Well, yeah. Okay. Relationship focused on Zambia. That's helpful.

Well, Victoria, we've learned so much from this conversation. I really appreciate it. And, you know, to hear the way you describe this across the cultures has really been very, very educational. I like going back to, you know, what were you even excited about? And again, we've seen at the church the way you've developed a pipeline of leaders and the way there is succession going forward. And you've got just a wonderful church growing and, you know, with 3,700 to 4,000 attenders every weekend and continued growth. And, of course, then, the Training Center with 1,000, nearly 1,000 graduates, and so many of those going into ministry. What a great way to fuel the future growth and the impact of the gospel in surrounding countries. I loved the conversation, the benefits around employee engagement, you know, having benchmarks, really encouraging trust and transparency, being appreciated, how it's appreciated by employees, how you're able to create solutions and give input into strategic planning. And then, of course, the benefit of lower turnover and the financial benefits of that. We've just talked about the similarities in different ways, the roles of boards and how I appreciate so much your participation in the board there and the focus on CEO performance, the focus of serving with excellence. And then, the common threads across cultures, that's really helpful. We often wonder, and we often get questions, “So does this work in different cultures? Does this work in Africa?” You know, and we can say, “Absolutely, confidently that this does work in Africa.” So yeah.

Victoria: Absolutely.

Al: So let me ask, then, you know, with this summary and this conversation, a very rich conversation, is there something you'd like to add?

Victoria: Well, it's just to really thank you for according me this time to represent Miracle Life Family Church and Rhema Training Center. And of course, in my own personal capacity, we are so thankful for Best Christian Workplaces Institute for partnering with us. We could have never made the improvements that we've been able to achieve without your help and input. We really look forward to the years to come to deriving more value from this relationship. I couldn't thank you even more.

Al: Aw, thank you.

Well, Victoria, I want to thank you for your contributions today. And most of all, I appreciate your commitment to strengthening the local church with excellence and leadership, as you've talked about, so that the Good News will spread, so that Christians will grow in maturity, that the world would be changed and more will come to know our Lord. So thanks for taking the time out today to speak in the lives of so many listeners.

Victoria: Thank you, Al. Thank you for having me.

Al: Absolutely.

Outro: The Flourishing Culture Leadership Podcast is sponsored by Best Christian Workplaces. If you need support building a flourishing workplace culture, please visit workplaces.org for more information.

We'll see you again next week for more valuable content to help you develop strong leaders and build a flourishing workplace culture.