Transcript: Leadership Essentials for Building Trust in Multicultural Communities // Dr. Gabriel Salguero, National Latino Evangelical Coalition (NaLEC)

Flourishing Culture Leadership Podcast

“Leadership Essentials for Building Trust in Multicultural Communities“

September 9, 2024

Dr. Gabriel Salguero

Intro: How can we as Christian leaders bring unity even as we embrace the diverse cultures of our organizations and communities? What are the key practices that build trust and healthy communication? Well, today on the Flourishing Culture Leadership Podcast, we’ll consider leadership essentials in a multicultural setting with the Reverend Doctor Gabriel Salguero.

Welcome: Welcome to the Flourishing Culture Leadership Podcast, your home for open, honest, and insightful conversations to help develop your leadership, your team, and build a flourishing workplace culture.

Al Lopus: Hello, I'm Al Lopus, the co-founder of the Best Christian Workplaces and author of the book Road to Flourishing. I'm passionate about helping Christian leaders like you create engaged, flourishing workplaces.

And I’m delighted to welcome the Rev. Dr. Gabriel Salguero to our podcast today. Gabe is the pastor of The Gathering Place church in Orlando, Florida, and the president and founder of the National Latino Evangelical Coalition.

Throughout our conversation, you'll hear Gabe talk about the unity and diversity, how to navigate multicultural divisions, four ways to build trust and diversity, his own personal spiritual disciplines, and five things that give him hope for the future of the multicultural church.

I think you're going to enjoy this interview. But before we dive in, this episode of the Flourishing Culture Leadership Podcast is proudly sponsored by the Best Christian Workplaces’ Employee Engagement Survey. Don't wait, because this fall is a critical time to assess the health of your workplace culture. By signing up today at workplaces.org, you can easily administer our online Survey and gain critical insights into your employees’ perspectives. Why now? Well, the competition for top talent is fierce. Becoming a certified best Christian workplace not only helps you attract the best and brightest, but also ensures that they will stay committed and engaged longer. Secure your organization's success: take action now.

Hello to our new listeners, and thanks for joining us as we honor your investment in time by creating valuable episodes like this.

But let me tell you a little bit more about the Rev. Dr. Gabriel Salguero. Gabe is the pastor of The Gathering Place, a Latino-led, multi-ethnic Assemblies of God congregation in Orlando, Florida. He and his wife, Jeanette, co-lead that congregation. He's also the president and founder of the National Latino Evangelical Coalition, known as NaLEC, a national coalition of several thousand evangelical congregations in the United States. He's also a powerful voice on issues that affect the close to 9 million Latino evangelicals in the United States. Salguero’s leadership, through NaLEC, offers an important voice for the growing diversity and changing demographics in our country. He holds a BA in Spanish and History from Rutgers University, an MDiv from New Brunswick Theological Seminary, and a Doctorate of Divinity from Eastern Nazarene College.

So, here’s my conversation with Gabriel Salguero.

Reverend Salguero, it's great to have you on the podcast, and I'm looking forward to our conversation today.

Gabriel Salguero: Thanks, Al, for the invitation. I'm very excited about this conversation.

Al: So, Gabe, you're the founder and president of the National Latino Evangelical Coalition. So tell us about the vision of your organization and why it's important to bring together leaders of Latino churches across the United States.

Gabriel: Well, look, I think that the National Latino Evangelical Coalition, most people know it as NaLEC, by its acronym. We exist to serve and empower the Latino evangelical church, Latino evangelical not-for-profits, Latino evangelical schools and academies. And so the vision behind it was to coalesce our voices around issues that are important to our communities so we can better serve our communities.

It's over 3,000 churches, not-for-profits, pastors, leaders, and executives that are part of our coalition. What we understand is that a pastor, a leader, whoever he or she may be, by themselves can't do what we can do together. And there are close to 10 million Latino evangelicals in the United States, and it's a growing group. And I think that if we're able to work together, we can effect transformative change and healing in our nation in a more effective way. And so that's why NaLEC started over 12 years ago, to coalesce our voices and to have greater Kingdom impact.

Al: That's great and really important. And, you know, you've got a church in Orlando, Florida. It's a multicultural church. And as you shepherd Christians in multicultural settings, including churches and other Christian organizations, what principles do you use as a foundation for your work? Are there some principles and practices that you found helpful in communicating across divides, particularly, and seeking reconciliation and collaboration?

Gabriel: Yeah, look, Al, that's one of the most difficult things we've had to do over the many years. Our church in Orlando, The Gathering, worships in English, Spanish, sometimes Creole, and American Sign Language. And I used to pastor in New York. My wife and I, Jeanette and I planted a multi-ethnic church in New York City, in Manhattan, and we worshiped in English and Spanish and Mandarin. And so one of the things you learn is that this is hard work.

Some years ago, I wrote a chapter in one of Tim Keller's books called Loving the City, and I said, look, this is a spiritual exercise. One of the things that we have to do is learn how to listen empathetically, not just listen to provide a response, but listen to understand. If you want to work with and walk with people across cultures and races and generations, you have to be a good listener, you know? That's part of a spiritual discipline. Deuteronomy, they told the people of Israel, “Shema, Israel. Hear, O Israel.” And a lot of times we were quick to speak and slow to listen. But if you want to do effective, healthy, multicultural, you need an empathetic listening.

I think the second thing that you need as a spiritual discipline is clear communication. I think it sounds easy, but to communicate across cultures, sometimes you have to repeat and clarify and have the patience to do it, because what you say might be heard in a different way in a different culture, or in a different generation. I'm a Gen Xer, and I have Millennials and Gen Z's in my church. And you know, I once said, “You sound like a broken record.” And one of the kids says, “What's a record?” I was like, “Oh, my goodness. You don't know what a record is?” And so clear communication requires clarifying and repeating and not just saying what you want to say, but making sure listeners across cultures and generations understand.

And then, I think the last thing is humble collaboration. Teamwork is harder than it seems. But if you do it right, you get further. And so humble collaboration is not a hostile takeover. It's saying, “What are your gifts, what are your talents, and where are mine? And where do they complement each other so we can serve our communities and serve Christ better?”

Al: Yeah. Gabe, I love your three points here. They’re keys to employee engagement, as I've written in Road to Flourishing. Yeah, to listen, and it takes humility to listen effectively. And then to speak clearly. And I love the idea of, you know, yes, at times we have to repeat and clarify. And that’s funny—broken record. Yeah, well, some people aren't going to know what that is, that’s for sure.

So, you've got a degree in history and also masters and doctorates in divinity. And you've studied both history and theology. That's a really interesting combination. So how does this background inform your perspective on what's needed today for Christian leaders in a season fraught with divisions? And, yeah, I’m really interested in your thoughts on this.

Gabriel: Yeah. I think, Al, one of the biggest challenges—and maybe your listeners, whether they're pastors or leaders of not-for-profits or leaders of corporations—we can become prisoners of the moment and think we're the only ones and our generation is the only generation that has faced a similar challenge. But if you're able to unearth the history of the church, you see that there’ve not been identical challenges, but there's similar challenges. And from that history you can draw deep principles, deep learnings. It's like drinking from the wells of our ancestors, of our spiritual mothers and spiritual fathers.

And so this is not the first time the church has experienced polarization. You might remember in Acts 5, the Hellenized Jewish widows were fighting against the other widows because they felt unattended. You might remember that Peter and Paul fought over including Gentiles in the early church. And so Paul and Barnabas separated over a discussion.

And so that Scripture shows us that throughout these tensions there are leadership principles, and there are servant-leadership principles that we can navigate. And I, for one, appreciate that, hey, not just the 21st century American church has navigated moments of polarization and division and anxiety, but others.

And then in the church history, Dietrich Bonhoeffer in Nazi Germany, he had to navigate being a faithful witness to Christ. Corrie ten Boom in the Netherlands had to navigate being a faithful Christian. And presently, there are Christians in places like China and other parts of the world that are being persecuted. And we can learn from them. And why is that important? Because we learn the biblical principles, and we also learn how our predecessors in Christian history and across cultures have navigated.

And for one, I think that gives us a sense of, hey, I'm not alone navigating this. And this is not the first time in history the church has had to navigate it. It probably won't be the last time. But if we're able to learn from what they did well and also not repeat the mistakes that they did poorly, I think that we are deepened and broadened and enriched by the history of the church and the biblical narrative that teaches us how to lead in difficult and challenging time.

Al: Yeah. Fantastic. Yeah. So, polarization isn't new to the church. That's, in a way, good news. But your point is let's learn from our history so that we can address these issues and address them quickly and effectively.

Well, this gets to the issue that I like to talk about, and the Bible speaks about the unity of believers. And I love Jesus’s prayer in John 17, that we would be one in the body. And give us a vision of how we can have unity as believers while also celebrating the diversity that God has created in His followers.

Gabriel: Yeah. Al, unity is a powerful word. It is Christ’s prayer in John 17, that they all might be one, as you've just mentioned. I think what is important is that we don't define unity as uniformity. And so I'm united with my wife, but I'm not my wife. We're two different people. And so unity allows for the celebration of diversity. I have two sons, and we're a family unit, and we're unified. But my two sons are very different from each other and different from myself and different from their mother.

And so, think about the church of Jesus Christ all over the world: the Chinese church, the Middle Eastern church, the Latino church, the African church, the U.S. church in all of its manifestations. I’m often drawn by the teachings of John Wesley when he reminds us that in the essentials, unity; in the non-essentials, diversity; and in all things, charity.

And so unity, even in the early church, didn't mean they were all identical. And when we try to, like, homogenize the church, when we try to make us all, we are all equal, but we are not all the same. We speak different languages. We come from different cultures. And that's not new. Some people think, “Oh, multiculturalism is a new thing.” It's not. The church was born on the day of Pentecost in Acts chapter two, and Dr. Luke in Acts chapter two says that they were there from all over the empire. They were from Egypt and Bithynia and Cappadocia, and they heard them speak in different languages. And so for unity you have to have the capacity to listen across culture, to listen across race, to listen across generations, without compromising the essentials and the absolute truth. And so it's that celebration of diversity while embracing things that are non-negotiable.

You might remember, Al, that in Revelation 7, there's a vision that John the Revelator sees, and it says that he saw them from every tribe, nation, and tongue, worshiping before the Lamb. They were all united in one thing: their worship of the Lamb. But they were different. And how do we know they're different? Because John tells us they were different. He saw the difference, from every tribe, nation, and tongue. And so it's important, and I think our listeners might be blessed by that. In creating a distinction between unity and uniformity, celebrate diversity without compromising the essentials of the faith.

Al: Yeah. Wow. And to do that, also, you need to be in relationship and proximity with each other, don't you, Gabe?

Gabriel: Yeah, you do, Al, because, look, I don't know what I don't know. I don't know what I don't know. I don't know Asian culture, but I have friends that are Asian and can be my sherpas. They can be my guides. And one of the greatest and most humblest things you can do is say, “I don't know. Please teach me.” But that can only happen in relationship. “I don't know. Please teach me.” When you're in deep relationship with somebody of another race, of another culture, of another generation, and you assume a humble posture, which is the posture of Jesus who humbled Himself, and you say, “I don't know. Please teach me,” I think that goes a long way in building bridges and building unity. But that can only be done, as you mentioned, Al, in deep relationship.

Al: Yeah. I love that. “I don't know. Please teach me.” And that's the way you begin to bridge the gaps. Yeah. Unity is not uniformity. Let's celebrate diversity and bring it together.

You know, some pastors and Christian leaders worry about navigating divisions in their churches or organizations in the broader culture. We're at a strange time in that regard. What encouragement would you offer to a leader who wants to reflect the love of Jesus to their community, and who's also tired, and maybe a little battle scarred, from these cultural battles that we're facing?

Gabriel: First thing I want to say is I completely understand. In our coalition, we have thousands of pastors, and we get emails, and when we meet, we hear the exhaustion in people's voices, the tension, sometimes, regrettably, the anxiety. Some people have abandoned ministry or have abandoned their not-for-profit because it's been so intense. So my first word is you're not alone. Elijah felt like he was by himself. And the word of the Lord came in a whisper in the cave and says, “Elijah, you're not alone. There are 7,000 others who are trying to navigate this very reality.” And so I think that's the first encouragement, that there are others trying to navigate this faithfully.

The second thing is that faithfulness is its own reward. Take a long view of history. And we have to learn—I think I'm learning. I haven't mastered it. I'm going to be honest with you, Al. I'm learning it—navigate the balance between truth and love, especially when they're delicate topics where people profoundly disagree, and they're all in the same church. We have over 16 nationalities in our church. It's difficult to navigate very delicate subjects: cultural, racial, generational, so forth and so on, theological. And so you have to navigate truth and love. John, in chapter one, when it talks about the Incarnation and the Word became flesh and moved into our neighborhood, The Message says. It says that He was full of grace and truth. People who are all truth and no grace, so they'll tell the truth, but they don't do it with grace. And then there are people who have understanding of grace, that Dietrich Bonhoeffer called cheap grace, where it's all grace, but no truth. And so Jesus taught us that for difficult times, when you feel exhausted, you have to balance grace and truth; and not just grace with other people, grace for yourself, because you’re going to get it wrong.

And perhaps one of the greatest gifts my mentors gave me as I was coming up as a pastor and as a leader in the evangelical movement, was, “Never be afraid to say ‘I'm sorry, and I got it wrong.’” That doesn't diminish you. It actually lifts you up because people see you as a person willing to learn and expand and to recalibrate. And so you can be exhausted navigating tense moments, but you also have to give yourself grace and the people you lead and the people you serve grace, again in balance with truth.

And so, I want to tell all those people who feel burnt out and who have had to navigate tense moments and delicate conversations, that if somehow you can find the giftings and the balance to integrate grace and truth, both grace and truth for yourself, and grace and truth for the people you lead, it won't be easy, but it'll become easier.

Al: That's so wise, and I appreciate that very much. We run into leaders who have created, let's just say, difficult cultures, and people are not on the same page. There's difficult relationships. And oftentimes leaders are afraid to say, “Well, I'm sorry,” or “I got it wrong, and let's repair this, and let's move in a healing direction.” And boy, I agree, that's a great way to move forward.

I trust you’re enjoying our podcast today. We’ll be right back after an important word for leaders.

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Al: Now back to my conversation with Gabriel Salguero.

In our work through Best Christian Workplaces, we serve a variety of different Christian churches and organizations. In all types of settings, we find that the foundation of trust is key for inspirational leadership in a flourishing workplace culture. Can you give us some examples of ways that you have seen leaders build an atmosphere of trust? And especially in a multicultural setting, you know, what are some of the key factors you've experienced and put in place to establish and grow trust amongst a multicultural setting?

Gabriel: Yeah. Al, I think, as I mentioned before, empathetic listening is foundational. People know when you're listening to understand, when you're listening to try to comprehend and listening to try to create empathy and trust between and among the people with which you work. And so that empathetic listening is very important.

You might remember that when Jesus, they said He was lost for a few days, but maybe it was His family that was lost. They found Him there, speaking to the scribes and the teachers. And the Gospels say that everybody was astounded at Jesus's wisdom. He's a 12-year-old young man or young boy, and they were astounded at His answers. But the text actually says He wasn't answering anything. He was listening and asking questions. I think that the posture of empathetic listening needs to be coupled, if you want to build genuine trust, with genuine wonder and inquisitiveness. Ask questions. Be inquisitive. Be curious. It's amazing how much curiosity can build trust, where people see you as a leader in a position of as a learner and say, “Hey, listen, I wonder about this. I'm curious about this. Can we go a little deeper about this?” And so there are these inquisitive questions that build trust.

Thirdly, I would say across cultures is model what you want to see. People often say, “I want to build bridges,” but they don't model bridge building. And bridge building is patient. Bridge building is listening. Bridge building is also saying to the other person, “How do I get from here to there in that culture? This is how we do it in our culture. But how do you do it in your culture?” And so patience, Al, is in high demand and low supply. But if you're going to be a leader that's building bridges across culture, you have to be patient. You have to be an empathetic listener, but you have to be genuinely inquisitive.

And lastly, be consistent. Stay at the table. There are going to be moments of hard conversations where they're going to be tensions. Commit to staying at the table and not walking away, because that's the first temptation. When things get rough, you walk away, and you say it’s not worth it. But I assure you that if you're consistent and you stay at the table, in the long run, what is produced from this trust relationship will be greater than what you can produce alone.

Al: Wow, four keys here, empathetic listening and asking questions. Be inquisitive. And then model what you want to see. Be patient. How do you do it in your culture? That's a great question. And oftentimes, when there are different cultures, I find myself even afraid to begin to say, “Well, we approach this differently, so how do you do it in your culture?” And then, yeah, be consistent. Stay at the table. You might feel like your toe got stubbed or you were hurt a bit or you hurt the other person a bit, but stay engaged. Stay at the table. It's worth it. Those are four great points. Thanks.

As Christian leaders, we have a responsibility to shepherd the flock that God has entrusted to us, and whether it's our congregation, our staff, people being served by our organization. At the same time, we've got to maintain our own personal spiritual foundation to lead effectively over the long haul. And as I've moved from working in marketplace situations and organizations to Christian organizations, I've realized how this spiritual leadership is such a critical factor in organizational health. So what habits and practices do you use to keep your own spiritual life vibrant, and how do you grow in your own relationship with God during the many demands? And I mean, you're involved in not only this coalition but pastoring a church. How do you keep your relationship with God fresh, both in terms of your time and energy?

Gabriel: Well, Al, that is a great question, and I think, quite frankly, I don't think it gets asked enough of leaders, and that’s when we get into some major crises, personal crises, family crises, leadership crises, moral crises.

And for me, there are a few disciplines. I grew up and was formed in a Pentecostal church. That's the tradition I’m formed in. And early-morning prayer is part of that. It's something I learned as a child. My dad, every day, would get up at 5:00, 5:30 in the morning to pray. And that's a habit that I embrace. And it's part of my own walk with Jesus. It's not for everybody. Some people do late-night prayers. I mean, but the discipline of prayer is important. Daily prayer. And for me, early-morning prayer is a part of my discipline that I think helps me, ground me, and set me on my way. And before I do anything, I think it sets the table for me. And listen, I'm a coffee drinker, so I'll have a cup of coffee and I'll pray. And I'm not saying that, you know, other people are tea drinkers or whatever, but early-morning prayer.

The other thing I want to say, Al, and you might laugh and your listeners might laugh, is I love to sing. Singing, it’s just—now, don't tell my wife this, but she thinks I'm a terrible singer, but I think I'm great. You know, I love to worship. I love listening to music. I love worship music. I think that something happens to my soul, and I feel like my soul breathes. And so I don't just worship as the leader of the church or when I'm in church; I do this daily. I have a daily discipline of singing. They could be hymns. They could be a song from my tradition. I love worship.

The other thing is—and people might not think this is discipline, but it is—reflection and contemplation. I think often times we ignore introspection at our own peril. We're not introspective enough. And so I often ask myself questions about, why am I doing this? Is this really to feed my ego? You know, you have to ask the why? questions. You have to have time for introspection. And so I spend time in introspection. I can't say that I do it every day; I think that would be disingenuous of me. But I'm intentional about spending time throughout the year where I'm asking the why? questions to myself and of myself. And so introspection is a spiritual discipline. Jesus Himself was very busy, like many of us are, especially people who listen to the Flourishing Culture Leadership. These are leaders. They might be type A personalities. But you have to take time. Mark chapter one says that after Jesus did all these miracles—Mark is the action gospel, Al. The word immediately shows up multiple times within the first three chapters. “And immediately Jesus did this,” and “Immediately Jesus did that.” I'm like, my Lord. Jesus was in high demand. But then in chapter one it says, “Early in the morning He went to a solitary place and He prayed.” And I imagine that this time was a time of reflection and introspection, and Jesus grounding Himself and saying, “Hey, I'm doing this to fulfill the will of the One who sent me, of my Father.” And so introspection.

And lastly, but not least, I love sports. I am a basketball fan. I love playing. I'm not great, but I love playing it. I love watching it. And so I find a place of Sabbath. And for me that's sports and reading. I love to read. And so find those places that nourish your soul, because you cannot give from the overflow if your cup is not filled.

And so rest, worship, contemplation, and prayer, and lastly, friends. I have friends, friends who correct me, friends who love me, friends who challenge me, friends who cry with me. The person who has friends is a rich person. And so those five things help balance me.

Al: Well, I count six, Gabe. You mentioned coffee.

Gabriel: Oh, that's right. Listen, Al, I'm Puerto Rican, and, you know, coffee is, it's one of the addictions that I have to repent from. So I'm confessing to this whole podcast audience. I have an addiction to coffee. It is my vice. Especially the way my wife Jeanette makes it. If you haven't had Jeanette's coffee, you haven't had coffee. So pray for me and for me to be free.

Al: I think there's a new brand. Yeah, okay. Jeanette’s coffee. Here we go. Yeah.

So. But. Yeah. Wow. This is really rich. Yeah. Early morning prayer and devotions, with coffee. For you, singing and worship. For many of us, music is just an important part of our devotional time. Reflection and contemplation. Sabbath in the form of sports and reading is a good way for you to have Sabbath, And then friends. Yeah. Friends that hold you accountable, who you can meet with, be yourself with, and be grounded. Great advice for any leader in a Christian workplace or in a secular workplace or in the marketplace. Yeah.

So, it's been a long process to move the body of Christ towards healthy multicultural groups and reconciliation. And, we've been working at it in the church for 2,000 years. So as you look at where we are now and ahead for the next few years, what gives you hope to continue your work?

Gabriel: I am a prisoner of hope. As Zephaniah said when he wrote to the exiles, he says, “God sings songs of victory over you, you exiles who are prisoners of hope.” And so you know N.T. Wright writes a book called Surprised by Hope. I'm a prisoner of hope. And it's not Pollyanna. It's genuine hope in that the God who calls is faithful to take us to the vision He's called us to. And that vision of multicultural, multiracial work that ties reconciliation and justice together, I think, is achievable, even though it's hard. And I may not see its complete fulfillment in my day, but I'm going to do my part. And so the Gospel gives me hope, and I'm a prisoner of hope.

The second thing is young people, young people, young people. I love young people. I love Millennials. I love Gen Zs. Both my sons are Gen Zs—one's 19, one’s 15. We have a lot of young people in our church who are innovative. They've learned to be what I call radical boundary crossers. Like Jesus and the woman at the well at Samaria, not afraid to have conversations across culture and race. And some of them are born out of multiracial and multicultural couples. And so it's the reality they're in. It's like fish in water. Their schools, my son's schools are multiracial and multicultural. So it's more a part of their common lives already. And sometimes secular organizations are more multiracial and more integrated than Christian ones. And that is lamentable. But I think my children and the young people of the church and the young people of our Coalition—we have a next-gen council—that is being innovative and is asking the tough questions. So young people give me hope.

And you know what else has given me a lot of hope? Women—moms who want, who dream of a better world. Not just moms, but leaders. There’s a growing number of executive leaders who are women who are leading in a different way, who are leading in a way that, for me, I'm learning from these women, like my wife Jeanette, who's an executive, on being organic, on building bridges in a different way, much more collaborative and less competitive. I mean, that's refreshing. When you see collaborative models instead of winner takes all, hey, you win, I win, we win, the Kingdom wins. And so that gives me hope.

And the last thing I think is just the—I'm going to put on my academic hat—the zeitgeist, how God is moving in history. Think about this, Al, and your listeners might appreciate this. One out of every four children born in the U.S. is Hispanic, 25% of children being born right now as we speak is Hispanic. One out of every two is a child of color in the U.S. And so the kind of demographic boom, for example, in the church we pastored, Jeanette and I pastored in New York. One of our members, Puerto Rican, married a Korean woman, and they had a child. And that child is Puerto Korean. I mean, it's just wonderful. It's glorious. This new reality of this integration of wonderful people who love one another and above all love the Lord, it's giving me hope.

And so the demographic boom, young people, a new style of leadership that many women are modeling, these things, and then, of course, the Gospel makes me a prisoner of hope. These things inspire me to keep the work.

Al: Okay. This has just been a great conversation. We've covered a lot of ground. There's no question about it. And, you know, just looking back at my notes, you know, talking about your work in Orlando with NaLEC, just great, great work. And I love your vision of unity. You know, it’s unity and not uniformity, and we should be celebrating diversity. And also, the importance of truth and grace and that balance, the truth and love and how that's a balance, and we just need to make sure that we're looking at both of those things, that we're not so focused on cheap grace or harsh truth. And to be able to say, “I'm sorry. I got it wrong.” And let's continue to build relationships through empathetic listening, through being inquisitive, modeling what you want to see yourself, being consistent, and staying at the table even when there's been some rough times. And of course, for all of us, to be transformed by the Holy Spirit and to do that, your advice on growing spiritually through morning prayer and fueled by coffee, and by singing and worship, and reflection and contemplation, and the Sabbath, and friends. And how you've got hope and hope in a lot of ways. That you're a prisoner of hope, and that you're loving young people and you see a bright future through their eyes. How women are important in leadership roles and the way they build bridges. And how in our multicultural country, because its rapidly changing, and I'm part of a largely Korean congregation, and so that's been just a very rich experience for me. And one out of four born in the U.S. is Hispanic; one out of two, a child of color. The world is changing. We need unity in the body of Christ. And when we have it, we're a model for the world, no question.

So, thanks so much. Is there anything else you'd like to add that we've talked about?

Gabriel: Look, Al. I think we're in a time of the great reset. I think the tensions, polarization, the global pandemic and crisis that many of us have lived through is a time for a great reset. Let’s see it as an opportunity to recalibrate and reset the table and dream big dreams after God to help people and transform people. You might remember that the children in The Chronicles of Narnia asked Mr. Tumnus the Faun, they said, “What time is it in Narnia? What time is it in Narnia?” And Mr. Tumnus says, “It's winter. It's winter in Narnia.” Then he adds something very negative, “But never Christmas.” He's actually wrong. For Christians, even if it's winter, it's always Christmas. Christ is always breaking in. The Kingdom is always breaking in. Even in the toughest of times, even when we have to navigate differences and cultural tensions and racial and polarization, it's still Christmas. And so I want to tell every listener to hold onto hope and to tell them it's Christmas, but it's winter, but it's also Christmas. It's winter, but it's also Christmas. So keep pushing on, keep holding on to Jesus, and keep dreaming dreams after God. And I think that we can collaborate with God. We can collaborate with God in His in breaking Kingdom. And so Merry Christmas to everybody, even if it's in the middle of summer.

Al: Yeah. There we go. And yeah, it's winter, but spring is coming.

Gabriel: That's right. That's right. That's absolutely right. And so the winter brings the flowers of spring. So hold on.

And, Al, I want to say thank you for inviting me and having a heart for the great diversity of Christianity in this country.

Al: Well, Gabe, thanks for your contribution today. Most of all, I appreciate your heart for equipping followers of Jesus to reflect the love of God and the diversity of God's people. So, thanks for taking your time out today and speaking into the lives of so many listeners.

Thank you so much for listening to my conversation with Rev. Dr. Gabriel Salguero. And I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did.

You can find ways to connect with him and links to everything we discussed in the show notes and transcript at workplaces.org/podcast.

And if you have any suggestions for me about our podcast or have any questions on flourishing workplace cultures, please email me, al@workplaces.org.

And listen in next week as I talk with Ryan Stanton, the president of Compass Nebraska, which invests in the lives of families in the foster-care system. Ryan will be sharing about sustaining a thriving workplace culture.

Outro: The Flourishing Culture Leadership Podcast is sponsored by Best Christian Workplaces. If you need support building a flourishing workplace culture, please visit workplaces.org for more information.

We'll see you again next week for more valuable content to help you develop strong leaders and build a flourishing workplace culture.