Transcript: Shaping Souls: Building Christian Character in Your Team // Peter Greer, Jesse Casler, HOPE International

Flourishing Culture Leadership Podcast

“Shaping Souls: Building Christian Character in Your Team”

September 18, 2023

Peter Greer and Jesse Casler

Intro: How does a Christian ministry develop the Christian character of its staff? Well, today on episode number 355 of the Flourishing Culture Leadership Podcast, my guests Peter Greer and Jesse Casler outline how leaders model Christian character in their leadership. Listen in to learn how you can lead from a strong foundation of biblical values and stay the course through accountability. How? you wonder. Well, stay tuned.

Welcome: Welcome to the Flourishing Culture Leadership Podcast, your home for open, honest, and insightful conversations to help develop your leadership, your team, and build a flourishing workplace culture.

Al Lopus: Hello, I'm Al Lopus, the co-founder of the Best Christian Workplaces and author of the book Road to Flourishing: Eight Keys to Boost Employee Engagement and Well-Being. And I'm passionate about helping you, Christian leaders, create engaged, flourishing workplaces. Thanks for joining us today.

I’m delighted to welcome Peter Greer and Jesse Casler to the Flourishing Culture Leadership Podcast. They're the CEO and COO of HOPE International, a global Christ-centered economic-development organization serving throughout Africa, Asia, Latin America, and Eastern Europe.

Throughout our conversation today, you'll hear Peter and Jesse talk about the importance of Christian character, integrity, and attitude in selecting new staff; ideas about encouraging accountability, performance reporting, and the use of a key phrase, “How can I help?” and how if spiritual development is important for staff, it's important to put people and money towards it, especially in our current culture; and the importance of partnerships and how to determine good ones and which ones to work with; and finally, an update on their work in Ukraine.

I think you're really going to love this interview with Peter and Jesse. But before we dive in, this episode is brought to you by the Best Christian Workplaces new leadership and group-coaching service. We help you transform your leadership effectiveness and help you become an inspirational leadership with our stakeholder-based coaching process. Learn more by going to workplaces.org/coaching to check it out today.

And hello to our new listeners. Thanks for joining us as we honor your investment of time by creating valuable episodes like this.

And now let me tell you a little bit more about Peter and Jesse. Peter Greer is the president and CEO of HOPE International, and his favorite part of his job is spending time with entrepreneurs that HOPE serves. He has a background in microfinance and international banking. Peter is the author and coauthor of over ten different books, including Mission Drift, Created to Flourish, Succession, and The Board and the CEO. And I'm also grateful that he wrote the foreword in my book, Road to Flourishing.

Jesse’s the COO of HOPE International and has been with the organization since 2004, coming up on his 20th anniversary. His work at HOPE combines his background in banking and his heart for people in developing countries. Jesse's played a key role in creating and maintain HOPE's flourishing workplace culture for over a decade.

So here’s my conversation with Peter and Jesse.

Peter and Jesse, it's great to have you on the podcast.

Jesse Casler: Thanks, Al. It’s good to be here.

Peter Greer: Yeah. Thanks, Al.

Al: You know, Peter, let's start with you. We've talked with you and other leaders at HOPE in the past and have learned so much about your commitment to excellence and a flourishing workplace environment. And today we want to focus on developing Christian character and leaders. We see from the results of your Employee Engagement Survey that leaders at HOPE do exactly that. They have Christian character. They exhibit humility. They exhibit the fruit of the Holy Spirit. They put Christ first in decisions, just to name a few. So give us a glimpse of what this really looks like day to day in your organization. Are there some unique practices that HOPE has that puts your leadership team and keeps your leadership team focused on character and integrity?

Peter: Yeah. Thanks, Al. And when I read through those results that were really encouraging, my first thought is, “They're definitely talking about Jesse Casler not Peter Greer,” when I read them. But Jesse and I have had the privilege of working together for 18 years. And if you look at our senior leadership team, there are long tenures at HOPE, and we are so thankful for that. We want this to be a place where individuals grow in their leadership journey, grow professionally, and I just am enormously grateful for the global team of HOPE International.

And I think the key piece to that, Al, is it all starts with, I mean, as Jim Collins wrote about first who, then what? And I believe in that. And so when we do our recruitment process, yes, we are looking for the technical skills, but we are, even more than that, looking for individuals that believe passionately in the mission that we have and are individuals of character and competence. And if you have those individuals who believe in the mission and they have the character and competence, we just have seen a journey of individuals at HOPE of individuals taking on more and more responsibility and getting to a place that I truly trust the head and trust the heart completely of the leadership team that I am so privileged to work alongside.

Al: That’s great. Yeah. Thanks, Peter. And thanks for demonstrating what humanity looks like right out of the chute there.

So, Jesse, what about you? What do you have to add, other than you think that Peter must be the one they're talking about with these results?

Jesse: Yeah. Yeah. You know, it is such a wonderful place to work, and I think we see this demonstrated all across the organization. And it's one of the things that I love so much about HOPE. And the last 18 years, like Peter mentioned, I think I've seen how it's not something that's automatic. It really does need to be intentional and fostered, and I think that starts with demonstration from the top of the organization. But just as important is that especially as you grow, it becomes a multipoint thing that's lived out throughout the organization, because as a global organization, the majority of our staff have very limited time around me or Peter, right? They are going to see their local manager, their team, right, and what's the culture that's being demonstrated and encouraged there is going to influence the culture significantly. And so we really have tried to, like Peter said, foster, attract, and hire people who exhibit that naturally and then equip them to lead that way around the organization.

I think, Peter, often, you and I, we will talk about how we're looking for people who are not thinking, “Me, me, me; self, self, self,” right, but rather looking up, Al, “How can I serve? How can I support others? How can I lift others up around me?” So I think that's a big part of it.

And part of it for us, too, is acknowledging when we don't get it right. I think the humility piece you talked about requires that when you don't get it right, you're also willing to acknowledge that. And so, yeah, I think integrity and character sometimes looks like having the humility to shine light on when you mess up and owning that.

Al: Yeah. Don't you find, you know, some leaders will say, “Oh, if you mess up,”—I mean, everybody makes mistakes, and some leaders will say, “No, we can't show that we've made a mistake. We can't admit that we've made a mistake. We're going to be stoic. We're going to show our strong leadership.” But I find the opposite is true. When you admit mistakes, it actually draws people closer to you and that trust is actually built in that. Is that your experience?

Peter: Yeah, I think so. They also want to hear not just the shiny, clean, whatever looks best, but, “Hey, we didn't get this right. Here's what we learned, and here's what we're doing about it.” So I think the other piece is the staff want to have you, you know, acknowledge when you don't get it right. But then, what are you going to do about it? How are things going to change? If you keep getting it wrong over and over again, that's also a problem. So I think we are trying our best to learn from the mistakes that we do make and try to improve from there.

Al: Yeah, great. Let's move on to accountability because that's another topic that is important in a flourishing workplace culture, so accountability as individuals and in teams as part of living out values of integrity. And accountability isn't just a top-down idea, but in a healthy workplace, I believe it's really all around the organization at all levels and that the culture actually builds accountability. So practically speaking, what does accountability look like at HOPE International? How do you structure your teams, your work groups, into practicing shared values and holding each other accountable with those shared values?

Peter, why don't you start?

Peter: Al, I was hoping that you were going to ask us for some of the specific times that we got it wrong and own those mistakes, because I had several that I was going to share about Jesse on that. So that’s where I thought we were going. But, no, we can go on to the plan.

Yeah, I mean, Al, it starts with, do we know where we're going as an organization? And we found that it really helps to have a very clear roadmap. And obviously, things change over time, but we have a very clear, “This is our strategic plan,” and then, we have specific benchmarks, and then, the biggest thing is—Jesse, I’d be curious to hear what you say—but I think introducing 15Five as our performance-monitoring software has been really helpful. The opportunity to have a weekly check in and to, yes, look at some of the big-picture goals, but also look, how are you doing? And Al, it's kind of crazy, but at HOPE I find the accountability is not a problem for us. We have highly driven, highly capable people that are passionate about the mission. If anything, sometimes I feel like we need to throttle back the pace a little bit.

And we just went through our mid-year review with our strategic plan, and the question that we were asking was one about pacing. And there are some that is “continue full throttle ahead,” and there are others, it’s “We're doing great. But let's make sure all of the staff are healthy in that.” And so if anything, I think the accountability sometimes is only thought about in, “You've got to accomplish these goals. You have to drive harder.” And I actually think as leaders, we have the equal weight of responsibility to say, “Let's get pacing right. Let's make sure that our staff are flourishing as we as an organization are pursuing these goals.” And that's something we also take very seriously. We don't always get it right, but we do not want to accomplish all of our goals and have a staff that is burnt out, that resents the organization, and the family members that resent the place of employment of mom or dad. Like, that is not a trade we’re willing to make.

Al: No, that’s—absolutely, because it actually impacts your performance long term, at the same time, because those people are going to develop, you know, toxic behaviors because they don't trust leadership, because they're burnt out, and so on. Yeah. Having a flourishing workplace, as Peter said, 1 Peter 5:2, one of my core verses, “Shepherd the flock that God's entrusted to you.” The flock has to be healthy in order to get the results you're looking for. No question. Yeah.

Well, Jesse, besides pointing out all of the things that Peter's done wrong—

Jesse: Well, I'm glad we're not doing mine, because this is a limited-duration podcast, and we don't have enough time for all of that. Yeah.

Al: Yeah. But now let's talk about accountability. What would you have to add to what Peter just said?

Jesse: Yeah. I mean, the first thing I'm just thinking about, to respond to what Peter said, he started by talking about longevity at the organization, and, really, we're thinking about, just like you said, Al, how do we have these people thriving at the organization five, 10, 15, 20 years out, right? You have to care about the person and their family and the whole person, right? So I think that's a big part of it.

But yeah, 15Five, Peter mentioned, has been really helpful. I think, you know, he mentioned and started by saying you have to be clear in what's expected, right? How do you hold people accountable for things that aren't clear? And even sometimes you have maybe a five-year plan or a three-year plan, and it's hard to find yourself in that. Like, “Well, I'm doing this every day. How does that relate to that?” I think 15Five has helped us really bridge that gap, where we're able to—each of my direct reports submits check in every week, where they're saying, “Here's how I'm doing at work, personally.” You know, if they want to share, they can share whatever they want there. “And here are the things I set out to accomplish this week. And here's what I did. Maybe I didn't get to everything, and here's an update on these things.” So it really helps me as a manager keep tabs on what my people are doing, the departments are doing, week to week and what their priorities are. Sometimes that allows me to say, “Hey, how can I help you in that? Maybe there's something I can do here to help that as well.” Or, you know, shift and guide the priorities a bit. So I think it's been really helpful for us to break down the big picture, annual or multi-year plans into, like, what is expected for this person, and how can I support you in that?

Al: Yeah. So Jesse, I'm going to ask a little more about the 15Five. So this is a software that—tell me—it starts with your high-level strategic goals and even mission, vision, maybe values, and then breaks it down into each individual's goals? Is that how that works?

Jesse: Yeah. We can use it for a variety of things, but that's one of the main features is having kind of our big-picture goals. And then, what does that mean for our team? What does that mean for this individual, right? What are my goals that support these higher levels so people can clearly see here's what I'm doing and how it supports the bigger-picture, overall mission for the organization.”

Al: Yeah. You know, sometimes when I talk about creating a flourishing workplace environment, some real Type A personalities will say, “Well, I'm not so sure we need a flourishing culture, because, you know, we want an organization that really gets things done. We want to make sure we're getting stuff done, and I'm not so sure about the soft stuff.” But it's my view that you can't have a flourishing workplace without proving that the organization is effective and having an impact on your ministry partners, those you're serving. I know I'm speaking to the choir, but is that your impression?

Jesse: Yeah. I think I would say the same. Like Peter said, we actually have a lot of people who probably would leave if they didn't feel like that. You know, that would be another piece of it. It's a piece of engagement for them, not a penalty for them. So we want to, you know, make sure that we're clear on what we're trying to accomplish. And then, like Peter said, celebrating when we do accomplish it and making sure that people get to participate in that.

Al: Yeah. And Jesse, I just want to point out to our listeners one thing that you said, and I want to highlight it. Accountability doesn't always look like, “Why didn't you get that done?” But I love what you said. It looks more like, “How can I support you?” Isn't that just a great way of turning that around and saying, “You know, okay, so we didn't get that done. How can we support you?” That’s just really outstanding.

So, well, let's focus on faithfulness, because focusing on faithfulness and not just on success can be hard for results-oriented leaders, kind of the example I just gave. And as you think back over your own careers and growth and maturity, was there a time when the light bulb just went on for you, when you realized it isn't worth compromising the faith aspect specifically to get a result; or maybe it was a time in your development when you got it wrong and realized that, “Hey, you know, this needed to work out differently”?

Peter, let’s start with you.

Peter: Yeah. There is one moment in particular that I would say was the defining moment in my life, as well as for HOPE International. And it was when there was a publicly traded company that was looking to make a grant to HOPE International, and it would have dramatically increased our ability to serve a lot more families. But it came with a very clear condition. And the condition was you've got to stop talking about Jesus in the work that you do. And for us, that was an incredible gift because it allowed us to, then, take a step back and say, “Who are we as an organization?” And that moment reinforced our clear conviction that we do not want to just be a poverty-alleviation organization that does excellent programs in microenterprise development. We want to do that and intentionally point people to Jesus. So we walked away from that funding opportunity. And I would say that was the biggest moment in clarifying who we are as an organization and allowed us to have much more conviction, much more alignment at the board level, at the entire organizational level, to say, “This is who we are as an organization, and there is no amount of funding that is going to sway us from this conviction that we want to be about the alleviation of physical and spiritual poverty.”

Al: Jesse, how about your own path to the principles and values you espouse?

Jesse: Yeah. I think one thing I would just highlight and piggyback on what Peter said, even to use a business term about competitive advantage, right? What is one of HOPE's biggest competitive advantages? We know who we are. And I know that sounds obvious and simple, but I've found that a lot of organizations, it feels like they're not really quite sure. And for us, we know what we're about. And that gift that Peter talked about was sizable, but it could be 10x that. It could be $100 million that somebody could come to offer us. And if they said, “You've got to take the Jesus part out of it,” we wouldn't even bring that to the board. We'd already know their decision, because everybody is clear on this. From the longest-standing board member and staff members to the newest intern, we're all clear on this. So I think it really helps, that foundation helps. When you think about staying faithful and true to the founding purpose and mission, it helps to be clear on what that is and who you are as an organization.

When we think about the programmatic side of what we do as well, you know, we're not running short-term projects. We're in it for the long term. Often, there are challenges along the way. It is not always an “up and to the right” kind of thing. And it helps that we are clear, like, “We're here for the long term in this program.”

Now, sometimes we do make decisions strategically to exit things that are not working fundamentally, but for the most part, we are there for the long term. And so that is another part of being faithful, to me, is working for the long term in that country together in partnership, hand in hand with the local church and with local staff to make that happen.

Al: You know, and also, Jesse, also, as I've talked with leaders, competitive advantage for a Christian faith-based organization, I just believe that, as you say, knowing who you are, knowing that that's who you are, is such a huge competitive advantage because Christians want to work with other Christians to accomplish something, again, not only for physical needs but spiritual needs as well. And that sense of purpose, that sense of real contribution is just so huge, a true competitive advantage.

I trust you’re enjoying our podcast today. We’ll be right back after an important word for leaders.

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Al: Welcome back to my interview with Peter Greer, CEO; and Jesse Casler, COO, of HOPE International.

Well, let’s talk a little bit about hiring and training new staff, because that's a big part of this. You have a strong, positive work culture at HOPE, and it's biblically aligned and focused on shared values. And what do you look for when you're hiring new staff? Is there some emphasis or more emphasis on skills or values? I know in some ways you've already talked about that. If you had two candidates, one who's highly skilled but not really clearly able to exhibit your values, or is there another candidate who had strong values but weaker skills, which one would you hire?

You know, Jesse, why don't you lead off with that?

Jesse: Yeah. And I know what Peter would say if he was leading off. It's not even close. We hire for attitude and values over skills every time. Of course, we love it when we can get both, right? That would be the ideal. But someone who is highly skilled but the wrong attitude and wrong values, that person can cause a lot of damage and a lot of problems. So we really are looking at that. We have a long recruitment process, and part of that is so that we can get to know the candidate better. You know, it's hard to assess this in a single 30-minute interview, right, over the phone. So we spend a lot of time and money and energy on the interview process. Peter and I are involved in that process, and many other senior leaders are involved in that process. And it's a long process on purpose because we want to get to know them better, and we want them to get to know us better. It's a big decision for them, too. So we try our best to transparently communicate expectations up front so there are no surprises. And then once they start, we have an organized onboarding process where they can be introduced to HOPE’s founding purposes, values, and ways of doing things.

Al: And Jesse, as I recall, you know, you came in through an internship program, where I know you’ve had an internship program in the past. Is that still something that's a core part of helping to evaluate people before you hire them?

Jesse: Yeah. So I joined before we had an internship program.

Al: Oh, I’m sorry.

Jesse: But yes, there's a good portion of our staff who've first come in through an internship or fellowship process. And it's, you know, in some ways it's a three-month way of getting to know someone and them getting to know you, right? Sometimes they'll leave, you know, maybe go back to college, finish their degree, work somewhere else for a couple of years, and then they come back and apply for a role with us. But they remember that experience and the love they had for the organization and the mission and want to contribute. So yeah, our internship process is a big funnel for us or channel for us in selecting new staff.

Al: So there in Lancaster, how many people would be involved in an internship? It’s during the summer, as I recall.

Jesse: Yeah. We have usually around 20 for a summer. Many of those are based in Lancaster, some are based around the country, but for the most part, they are based here in Lancaster. And that can be in everything from graphic design to fundraising to stuff with our programs, microfinance, H.R., all kinds of different areas.

Al: Yeah, right. Peter, your thoughts?

Peter: Yeah. Al, as you were saying that, I pulled up my intern and fellow directory that I just got. Looks like Jesse has it on his desk, too. We are learning all of their names right now and making sure that we greet them when they arrive next week, I believe, is when they officially start. And there is just such a wonderful way that—I mean, the energy, the excitement, the enthusiasm, it is good for HOPE International to have this group come in. And as Jesse said, it has been a major pipeline for individuals to join the mission of HOPE at some point in the future. And we have them do real work, contribute in meaningful ways, as well as expose them to the global mission.

So actually, it was Chris Horst, our colleague, who first designed the internship program. But now Alana is the one who oversees that, does a wonderful job of welcoming and really making sure that this is not only great for them, but also exposing them to the global mission of HOPE that we've seen has a lot of positive outcomes, not in the next year, but in the next decades to come, in many cases.

Al: And I'll just shout out to our listeners, and they were just showing me the actual list. You could hear the rustling of the paper. And so here's the CEO and the COO of the organization, and they are memorizing names and backgrounds of candidates before they even come. And what that does for the interns as they come in, and that just makes them feel like they are special. And that first impression will also last a lifetime for them and certainly will impact their image of HOPE going forward positively. That's so—yeah, good job. That's exactly right.

So, I want to dig a little deeper because Christian organizations face the increasing challenge of a culture that rejects the teachings of Christ. We see this more and more and more as time goes on. The generation coming into the workplace will not have the biblical depth and the worldview of previous generations. We know this is true. So how does HOPE invest in the spiritual development of your staff? And if so, what are ways that you do this?

Peter, how about you? Let's start.

Peter: The first thing that comes to mind, Al, is that whenever something matters, you put people and money and time behind it. And so I would say with this category, if you think that because you hire individuals, that that is enough, I would say if it's not also reflected, not just in the hiring, but then in the prioritization of time and actually having a budget and staff around it, then there might be a gap there. So for us, we have a, we call it our spiritual-integration department. We have a director of spiritual integration. We prioritize this with prayer time. Every office around the world, there are, at least three times a week, times to gather together with the team and pray together. We have small groups that engage discipleship groups, and there is a lot of creativity about how we do that. But I guess it would all, underneath this, there is time allocated for it. There is modeling. Jesse and I make sure, to the best of our ability, we're showing up at those prayer times. It matters to that and prioritizing the opportunity to not just grow in our professional skills, but also in our relationship with Jesus.

And we say, Al, that when it is time for someone to leave HOPE—and the reality is everyone is going to leave HOPE. Everyone who works here, there will be a time when they leave—at that moment, for them to say, “This was a place, this was a workplace where I grew in my faith. This was a place that I grew in my relationships. This is a way that I grew in my ability to provide for myself and invest in my dreams as well.” And we just want everyone to say, “When it is time to leave, this was a place where I grew, yeah, in the areas of life that matter most.”

Al: A director of spiritual integration, okay. Wow.

Jesse, tell us a little more. Your thoughts.

Jesse: Yeah. You know, HOPE is not a church, but because of our mission, because of who we are, we're very clearly interested in the spiritual growth and depth of our staff. We highly value staff being part of a local body of believers, but we also have our own rhythms and processes for deepening our faith. That includes regular devotional times every week, prayer times several times a week, collectively. Sometimes many of our teams are doing individual prayer times as a smaller team. In addition to that, we offer two spiritual-refreshment days per year for all staff. So those are paid as paid time off to go deepen your faith, do a spiritual retreat, do some other things with that.

And there's lots of other things we do. We have a monthly faith-and-practice theme, where we send out an email each month with resources and things you can go through along that theme. Often, those devotional times that month might be based on that theme. Our spiritual-integration team, like Peter mentioned, discipleship groups. There's just a lot of things going on to help us to learn more about our faith and deepen our faith.

Al: And as I recall, you had a spiritual leader actually help you with a program, and that had some acronyms. Do I recall that correctly?

Peter: There are several things that we have, Al. And one thing that I would say is everything at HOPE is open source. So if anything that is helpful to any listeners, we love sharing the way that we do this. So we do have our overall Kingdom-witness framework for us, and that is built around who we are. Are we growing in our relationship to Christ? How we work. Is faith integrated into the programs? How is it? And then, how we serve the church. So those are the three components.

And then, we also have a culture document that is built around prayer. And this is what we really celebrate every time there's a staff meeting. We have a way to nominate each other when we see individuals living that out. But it is all built around prayer and allegiance and service, stewardship, innovation, optimism, nurturing. We could go into a lot more detail in that, but it is clarifying, “This is the culture that we are trying to create at HOPE International,” and seeing that and celebrating it together with a global team. So we've got more other documents of how we do that. But yeah, those are some of the core ones.

Al: Thanks. Well, we've been talking about character and integrity in your own lives as leaders and also in the staff at HOPE International. And I'm wondering how it works out as you partner with others around the world, you know, projects that HOPE International undertakes. For example, I'm sure that everyone doesn't really share your values, but how do you discern who to partner with, and how do you resolve any issues that might arise as you get into situations where values diverge, maybe even conflict?

Jesse, your thoughts on this?

Jesse: Yeah. Well, it starts with prayer, and we just were talking about ways that we pray together as a staff. Some of the things we're praying about are the partners that we will be partnering with going forward and new programs that we're starting from scratch. We are seeking the Lord's guidance in all of that. And so it starts with prayer.

We also do desk due diligence, so kind of remote or virtual reviews of what we can find online, and through phone calls, interviews, other things that we're doing. And then, we do in-person due diligence. So before we're partnering with someone or starting a work on the ground, we're sending usually cross-functional teams, including often people from our spiritual-integration team, to go and to be there on the ground and evaluate the opportunity. So some of that's around financial, technical, H.R., processes and procedures, but also about faith as well.

And then, we're asking questions like, do the governance structures and people align with our full mission? Do the staff, leadership, and hiring practices align with that mission? You know, that's obviously very important for us for mission true, long-term staying mission true. In our savings group programs, where we primarily partner with local church denominations, we're looking for their invitation in and desire to make this a ministry of their church, not just a project they're running for a fee, for an American nonprofit, but rather something that they want to incorporate into what they do, like their children's ministry, like their men's ministry, the choir, and their savings group ministry.

And when we do have issues with this, we try to sensitively and appropriately address those with partner leadership, keeping in mind cultural sensitivities. Cross-cultural communication can be a big part of this, too. But we try to do this through local staff, leadership when possible, since they may see cultural differences that we may not be able to see as clearly.

Al: Yeah, great.

Peter, anything to add there?

Peter: No. I think that's well said. To me the summary is, is there alignment in mission, and is there the underlying level of trust? And if you've got alignment in mission and you've got trust, you've got the building blocks of a great partnership.

Al: Peter, HOPE International started in Ukraine. And I know that you've got a clear effort to support those that you work with in Ukraine, even after, now a year after, the war has started there. Give us a summary of your ongoing support with those that you've worked with over the years in Ukraine.

Peter: I appreciate that, Al. I was in Ukraine last month, and it was an opportunity to be with the team. And, you know, after the invasion on February 24 of last year, the initial kind of core body of work was, how do we care for staff? How do we care for the families we are working with? And there was this immediate time of relief. And then, how do we partner with churches to be radically generous in helping individuals that were fleeing violence? So that was the relief stage that is not in our core competency, but because of our staff and church partnerships, it would have been unwise to not do everything possible to help respond to that crisis.

But we are now at a very different stage. And even though the conflict is continuing, we are now at a stage that we are back to our core model, and we are able to help entrepreneurs rebuild their nation of Ukraine. And while the conflict is still going, there is this amazing ability that the resilient Ukrainian entrepreneurs are finding creative ways to buy generators and get back to work even when power is disrupted, and find ways of employing internally displaced people, and finding ways of being radically generous in the way that they are running their companies. And we are privileged to get back to our core model of investing of those types of entrepreneurs and watching them rebuild their nation and love their neighbors with just incredible courage.

So, that is where we are. And I consider it a privilege to, in many ways, have built, you know, 25 years of relationship that we were able to really pour into in this moment of crisis and really see the church shine in the way that it responded and continues to respond even with the ongoing violence that is happening there. So I'm just enormously grateful for our Ukrainian colleagues and Ukrainian church partners. It's been, yeah, it's been a heartbreaking but also deeply moving year to watch the church respond.

Al: And that's how you know that you're Christians, by the way. You love one another. Fantastic. Thank you for sharing.

Well, Peter and Jesse, this has just been such a great conversation, as always. You know, as we've talked about character, we've talked about accountability. This is really interesting. And you've got a software program that you use to actually help with accountability. I love, Jesse, your comment there about, you know, when it comes to accountability, probably the first question is, how can I help you? if somebody is falling behind some of their responsibilities. But also, how in the workplace, you know, as Christian workplaces, how the competitive advantage we have is that we do authentically follow Christ. And that just brings really capable people, in my mind, to the workplace because of that unique competitive advantage from a labor-market standpoint. Also, thanks for sharing a little bit about your internship program. I think our listeners got a great idea there. And how special development is something that Christian workplaces, no matter who it is, should be focusing on for their employees, that you have your own director of spiritual integration. And Peter, your comment is, if it's an important thing in an organization, that you put money and people on it. And that is something for our Christian nonprofit listeners to really consider. And also, again, faith relationships, how that’s a great way of identifying good partners to work with.

So this is just been, again, a great conversation. I've enjoyed it so much. For each of you, is there something that you'd like to add that we haven't talked about?

Peter: Yeah. Al, we talked about the 15Five software and just that ability to listen to every staff, to check in, and to align weekly activities with the broader goals and how helpful that has been. We are definitely advocates for that tool or a similar tool. But I would say the second thing, Al, is we are huge advocates of BCW. And the way that you have equipped us to listen well to the global team and make meaningful change, I would say a lot of the things that we've been able to do to improve the workforce, to improve the culture, are directly related to our ability to listen well to the global team. And BCW is the tool that we've used. So thank you for the work that you do. Thank you for the way that you have helped us become a flourishing workplace. And we are so thankful, yeah, for the partnership.

And if any listeners have not participated in that, I'm not getting paid for this, but I would strongly recommend that you consider doing that. It has had a transformational impact on HOPE International and on us and our journey as leaders as well.

Jesse: Yeah. I would just add, in addition to the listening we can do through BCW, your staff does such a great job of helping us sift through the results and learn from them and respond to them and even learn what are others doing in the industry, you know, to respond to this. So it's been really, really helpful, and we really appreciate you all.

Al: Yeah. Well, Peter, Jesse, thanks so much. I really thank you for your contributions today. Most of all, I appreciate your commitment to leading with integrity and building a flourishing workplace for the whole team so that you can impact the world for God's Kingdom. Thanks for taking the time out today and speaking into the lives of so many listeners.

Peter: Thanks for having us, Al. Always good to spend time together.

Jesse: Yeah. Thanks, Al.

Al: Thank you so much for listening to my conversation with Peter and Jesse. I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did.

And you can find ways to connect with them and links to everything we discussed in the show notes and transcript at workplaces.org/podcast.

And if you have any suggestions for me about the podcast or have any questions on flourishing workplace cultures, please email me at al@workplaces.org. I’d love to hear from you.

And leaders, one last thing. If you want to improve your leadership, expand your organization's impact for good, and see broader faithfulness in our culture, please help us to achieve our goal to see 1,000 flourishing Christian-led workplaces in the year 2030. To help, please share this podcast with another leader or launch a project in your organization to improve and discover the health of your workplace culture. If you're interested in learning more, go to workplaces.org and request a sample report.

Outro: The Flourishing Culture Leadership Podcast is sponsored by Best Christian Workplaces. If you need support building a flourishing workplace culture, please visit workplaces.org for more information.

We'll see you again next week for more valuable content to help you develop strong leaders and build a flourishing workplace culture.

Al: Next week, I'm excited to interview author Leah Kral about how innovation drives organizational outcomes and impact. She’s written the fascinating book called Innovation for Social Change: How Wildly Successful Nonprofits Inspire and Deliver Results. You won't want to miss it.