Transcript: Becoming the Kind of Leader People Want to Follow //Jim Brown, OrgHealth

Jim: But here's the challenge, Jesus is perfect, and none of us are and none of us will be. What we've allowed is a confusion between the perfection of Jesus and the impression that we're supposed to be like that, as if confidence and certainty and flawlessness are what's expected from leaders. But if we really study how Jesus functioned, he never expects people to be perfect.

Narrator: This is the Called to Flourish Podcast where leaders and cultures grow.

Robert: Well, hello and welcome to the Called to Flourish Podcast, where leaders and cultures flourish. Excited to introduce a guest, a new friend to the BCW ministry, Jim Brown. And I'll be introducing him, but I want to give you a little introduction about Jim. But hello, Jim, good to see you on the podcast.

Jim: Wonderful to connect with you. Robert. Really impressed with the work that BCW has been doing for so many years, and excited to be aligned with you.

Robert: Amen. Very excited to be aligned with you as well. So, Jim is a founding partner of Org Health, based in Ontario, Canada. And Org Health is a consulting coaching firm, helps leadership teams, boards, executive teams, get in alignment and build high performing teams and cultures through organizational health. He's also, since 1995, he served as a consultant. Jim is also an author and a leadership coach. The Imperfect Board Member was your first book Jim, in 2006?

Jim: That’s correct, yes.

Robert: Yes, The Imperfect Board Member, and he's doing a 20th anniversary edition, which will be released September 2026 is that right?

Jim: Yeah, it's coming up. And it's kind of sobering to think that 20 years has gone by already. But what a privilege it's been to work with so many organizations, in business, in corporate world, but in churches and ministries as well, helping those boards be most effective.

Robert: Yes, amen. And it sounds like a pretty exciting year for you coming up in 2026 because you're also releasing a new book called, The Imperfect CEO on May 19.

Jim: Correct, yes. Very excited about this. In many ways, Robert, this feels like the culmination of my entire career. It's from way back when I was just out of high school working in a factory, I had an experience that shocked me, where people hated their job. And the idea that people put their career, their whole working career, into a job they didn't like. In the case that I observed, a person retired and within a couple of months had passed away. And wow, this was actually the moment that pushed me to have the get serious about God conversation.

Robert: And here we are.

Jim: So, much has happened. We get to help leaders build organizations where people like their job, they want to come to work. They can be the best version of themselves. And we need to do that everywhere in the world. But let's especially make sure that we're doing it in our churches, in our ministries, where we're trying to make a kingdom impact.

Robert: Absolutely, that's what it is all about. Healthy, flourishing workplace cultures, life giving work. And so exciting, it's fun for us at BCW to intersect with people like you who were forming this newer relationship with you, with the same heart, the same understanding of the work that God is seeking to do in cultures and in leadership. It’s a lot of fun. Super excited. So, today we are going to probably go a little deeper into some of these concepts that could be in your new book. I've had a chance to skim through a little bit of it and read some of the chapters, which, by the way, I'm loving the read. Not only for the insights, but I love the bite size approach, with kind of shorter chapters. I'm absolutely loving that because, I don't know, maybe it's the Tiktok world, the Tiktok brain that we're developing nowadays. But I love the bite size accessibility to each of these concepts and how it just moves through. And then there's a lot of great practical, would you call it coaching, or exercises?

Jim: Tools to help people apply the concept. So, it's written as a story rather than a textbook. But then kind of just a sidebar, hey, you're reading this story, but you notice this happen, and maybe you've seen something like that happen in your own organization, your own church. Here are some exercises. Here are some questions to reflect on and some exercises to work through, so that we can actually make sure that you're not just getting information, but you're actually considering how to improve as a leader.

Robert: Right, right. So, it's very much kind of like a work study, gleaning these great insights, and then here's something I can really think about and begin to apply immediately and go deeper and reflect. So, really love that in the book. So, look for that coming out in May 19, 2026.

So, what we want to touch on is kind of going deeper into leadership. And we know at BCW, our research indicates through our flourish model, that inspirational leadership has the greatest weight. It's the most important driver to organizational health, to employee health, to engagement with employees. And so, that's what I'd love to explore further and kind of gleaning some of the things that are in your book. But one thing that really got my attention initially was this idea that leadership has changed significantly, and leaders have to begin to adapt to those changes. So, there seems to be, and I'm very interested in your insights, I don't know if it's a generational thing or cultural shift that's happened. There is a clear shift. And I'd love to learn from you what is happening, what things are working, and how do we have to begin to adapt and be aware of those things?

Jim: This is so important, Robert, because what I have observed as I've coached hundreds of leaders over the last few decades, what worked well 20 years ago, 10 years ago, just don't, those things do not work now. And there are many leaders who have the status and power to keep doing what they always did, because they're familiar with that and it's proven. Except they are kidding themselves. People are nodding, but they are not agreeing. What I've discovered is that leaders don't have to have all the answers, they need to have better questions. This is a paradigm shift for many leaders. They really have approached their role, thinking they're supposed to be the answer person. And in our current generation, people see that with suspicion actually. They wonder, how can you have all the answers? We don’t even know what the questions you are asking are yet. So, yes, we need to just change how we see our role, to not be answer giver, but instead be the one that's setting a climate to make it so that we can have conversations that move us forward together. The old days where I'm in charge, follow me. You'll be braver because I'm leading the way. And no.

I love the line, maybe you've heard this. Sometimes leaders get so far in front of their people that they mistake them for the enemy and shoot them. And this is what happens a lot these days in the leadership world. Rather than drawing people along with us, engaging them in a conversation and in a process, so that they understand where we're going and why we're going-- We've made it to the top of the hill, and we call down and say, “Come on, follow me,” and they don't know what we're talking about. We’re the enemy.

Robert: Yes. So, are you seeing this play out in your work more as a generational sort of divide? Or is this a cultural shift?

Jim: I think it's especially a generational divide. I find that many, many of the people that I'm working with who are at the succession point of their leadership, this is where there's the breakdown. Because the people that would probably be good candidates to the ones that they would be leading, don't feel like good candidates to the one that is departing because they're just so different. And we think, “Well, I've done this so well myself, shouldn't we find somebody that's a lot like me?” And the answer is actually no. You need to find someone that's well suited for the age we're in, the times we're in, the challenges we face, the cultural issues that we're all swimming in.

Robert: And if you've been ingrained in a certain type of leadership, maybe speaking to the older generations, this seems like the right thing. Where one generation might think, well, you know, loyalty and those things are the priority. Where others, younger generations, might have a completely different perspective, where it's about inclusivity, right?

Jim: Yes, and agency. Yeah. The times have changed. And too many leaders have not quite caught up with those changes. I want to agree with your point that there's a generational issue, but there's also a cultural issue. And especially has a flavor within churches and ministries. Because we would all identify Jesus as the example we want to live most like. But here's the challenge, Jesus is perfect, and none of us are and none of us will be. What we've allowed is a confusion between the perfection of Jesus and the impression that we're supposed to be like that, as if confidence and certainty and flawlessness are what's expected from leaders. But if we really study how Jesus functioned, he never expects people to be perfect. He doesn't expect confidence, certainty, and flawlessness. He expects humility and an appetite to learn. Like look at Peter, who he knew would deny him three times, but he was claiming that he's the best follower there is. “And boy, you can count on me.” And Jesus didn't say, “Hey, you're going to be disqualified.” He allowed for that failure. Met him there, and just kept leading him on. And still declared on this rock, I will build a church. His expectations are not that we're supposed to be like him in that way, in the perfection way. We're supposed to be like him in the we love, people we care for, people we bow our preferences and serve others. He did model perfect leadership. We just think that we're supposed to be more like Jesus in his perfection.

Here's a line I use, and I would encourage you to consider, “Progress beats polish, every time. Stop trying to have it all polished, it's just about progress. Are we moving forward?”

Robert: Are we moving forward? Yeah. Are we learning from our mistakes? I love your example of Peter. It's always been one of my favorite lessons that we can glean in the Scripture because Peter was very confident in his love for Christ. And when he said, “If everyone else, I'm the guy. I'm the polished one. I'm the one who's there.” And he was more confident in his love for Christ than he was in Christ's love for him. And when Jesus restores him and says, “Do you love me?” You notice Peter tempered his response, and he didn't come out with that, you know, I'm the one whose love is unfailing towards you. There is a shift that happens. And it was more about, your love is unfailing towards me, and that's that spirit of humility and growth. And we're growing, we're learning, and that's what we trust in as imperfect people. How do we stand and lead knowing that we are imperfect? We are growing.

Jim: Yeah, I really believe that hard conversations are the entrance fee to healthy leadership. And what you've just highlighted is that Jesus is willing to have those hard conversations. He didn't avoid the reality that Peter was going to deny him. He expressed it. He dealt with it, but neither did he say and because you aren't meeting perfect expectations that you're disqualified. On the contrary, “Hey, I love you. I believe in you. Yes, come follow me again, today and tomorrow.”

Robert: Yes, and keep doing the work that I've called you to do. What an incredible life-changing moment that must have been for Peter. I love that. I love that, polish. We're not here to be polished. We're here to grow, make progress. Absolutely.

I want to touch on this, this idea of trust. In our employee engagement surveys, we'll often look at, what are the trust scores? How did leadership teams and other teams respond to questions centered on trust? Because trust really is the center of flourishing leadership. And when we're talking about cultural differences and generational gaps and an unwillingness to have progress as a leader, whether you're an older leader or a younger leader, the trust element becomes jeopardized, right? So, talk to us about how trust is so important in this and how being in a leader that can understand your imperfections and realize I need to adapt, I need to change, I need to grow, how that can foster trust and help with your organization and teams?

Jim: Sure. Here’s another line that I like to reinforce, real leadership begins the moment you stop pretending. People can't trust you if you are pretending about who you are and what you do. And again, this is in in the light of what some people think they're supposed to be, confident, certain, flawless, they're pretending. And they're exhausted from the image management. That is not sustainable.

Today, more than ever, especially when we're working with Gen Z, they just want us to be real. Can you just be yourself? So, if we want to build trust, it's not what we only thought of in older generations. Trust is that we do what we say. We deliver our results. Yes, that's an element, a predictability piece. But the trust that is really critical these days, Robert, is about vulnerability, not predictability. Vulnerability. Will we be true, authentic, real people in their space, in their presence so that they can feel that it's safe to be real people in our presence.

Robert: I like that. I like that. Does trust look different, for example, would trust feel more like autonomy to maybe an older leader, where it might look more like accessibility to--

Jim: I like that characterization. That's a really good pairing, yes. Yes. So, much of what our older generation leaders consider to be trustworthiness is tied up with strength and results. And the young generation is not convinced that they're ever going to meet those expectations. They will someday. They're like all of us, we begin, and there's lots to learn. But it seems like a gap that's not accessible to many of the young people. So, let's not let that be the perception that people have. Good leadership is about understanding the people that we have invited to follow and meeting them where they're at rather than just shouting down the hilltop, saying, “Come up here. This is where you're supposed to be.” No, walk down and meet them. Again, this is what Jesus did. He did not separate himself from people. And the religious leaders around him thought he should, “Oh, you shouldn't spend time with those people.” “Actually, those are the people that I'm called to love and serve and lead. So, I'm going to meet them.”

Robert: Amen. So, when we're talking about trust, what are some things that leaders can do. If you're a leader listening and you're like, “Hey, I think I want to build trust, and I want to be that kind of, you know, leader to the younger generations that I've invited on this journey.” And I like how you said it that way because as leaders we have to remember that. We've invited you on this journey. And if I'm going to lead you, I got to meet you where you are and serve you in that way. But what does that look like? How does that play out practically?

Jim: Yeah. There's a few behaviors that people can exhibit that help people around them to believe they are accessible. For example, it's really healthy if we apologize when we've made a mistake. When the leader apologizes, then the people around them, one, they see, “Oh, he's admitting that he made a mistake.” Let's realize they all know the mistake was made, but they're not going to hold their finger against the chest of the leader. But no, the leader is not trying to be the infallible one. The leader is human. And making human acceptable. That would be a good thing. So, admitting mistakes.

Asking for help, oh, my goodness, when we understand what our own limitations are, and we see strength somewhere else say, “Oh, you're so much better at that. Could I possibly get your help with that?” Even the ones that are not being invited to bring their help are encouraged because they realize that someday, there may be something that they could bring that the leader would really appreciate.

This one is especially uncommon, that we would be generously sharing about our life, not just our job. When we want to work together with people, we need to know what's happening in their life. So, if I were to say, “Hey team, I apologize. I've not been as accessible, not been as quick to respond in the last couple of weeks, and I've been trying to manage something and keeping it to myself. But I want to let you know that my daughter has been quite ill in the last while, even when it's not taking my time, it's taking my thinking. And so, I'm just not myself. I apologize that's probably having an impact on you.” And it's not an expectation, Robert, that people suddenly do something to try to take care of the daughter. It's just, “Okay, yeah. You're a human being with life issues. You're not able to give 100% every moment of every day. Neither am I. And if you're willing to admit it, then maybe you're going to not punish me when that happens in my life too.”

I mean, there's a longer list, and I can give more. But I'm just trying to illustrate that it's leaders being human and letting their humanity be very visible, as if it's normal. Because it is.

Robert: Well, you're building a relationship with the people you're leading as well, and giving them, maybe not over sharing, but giving them an appropriate insight into my personal life. That's a relational builder, which is part of a trust builder. That's a powerful and simple and very practical tool that you can use. And when it's authentic and genuine, like, “Hey, I trust you as the people in this you know that I'm leading on the team, I’ll share this with you.” It's a reciprocal trust there.

Jim: Here's one that would be especially impactful on the trust relationship. If someone challenges your idea as a leader, are you able to receive that challenge to provoke good conversation, or do you instantly refute the idea and make it clear that you've already figured out all of the options and your answer is the right answer? Because that will just make it so people realize that they shouldn't challenge you. What it really means, Robert, is they don't trust that you're going to treat them safely if they were to share their ideas in contrast to yours. Well, hard to really have a productive best idea wins innovation approach in an organization, if the leader is the only person that can have the good ideas.

Robert: Right, right. Doesn't exactly build trust that way. I love that. So, earlier in the conversation, you mentioned churches, you'd mentioned something about the churches specifically. And I'm curious, in your experience, in your work, do you find that pastors, senior pastors, executive pastors, or churches in general, are not prioritizing organizational health in the way they should tell me, tie me back into that.

Jim: I got so charged by this topic in the last week that I just wrote an article that will come out eventually. I think the title is, The Sermons Not the Problem. Most pastors have been very well trained, equipped at seminary to study the word and create a good exegesis of the truth of God so that they can preach that to the congregants. And this is very important.

But let's consider the parable of the sower and the seed. If we put out wonderful seed, but it lands on hard ground, we're not going to get a harvest. And if the ground in a church is an unhealthy culture, where people have a critical spirit, there's complaining and accusing that's happening, and that's not being addressed and corrected in a loving way, then the soil is just not going to receive. So, it’s very concerning to me, Robert, that many pastors have been putting a lot of their energy, if not the vast majority of their energy on the teaching role that they have, which I'm not trying to understate the importance of it. It's just that the creation of a healthy culture in a church is just as important, perhaps even more important, and it's not even on the radar screen of a lot of church leaders.

Robert: Yeah. Well, I appreciate that, because the church world is very close to my heart. I’m grateful that you are putting out an article on this. And that’s the work we are in. We are trying to create awareness to churches and church leaders, and really any leader. But as you're focusing in on that, it's so true. You discover as a pastor very quickly, I pastored a church for some years in the past, that that the sermon is really the smallest element of the work of the pastor. And Sunday mornings, in some ways, are the least important element. Not to diminish the Sunday experience, but it's the everything in between, and you learn those lessons as a pastor very quickly how important the relational elements are and the cultural elements are. And boy, churches need that assistance. They need that insight and help to uncover these things and to grow an awareness of these things.

Jim: This is where what does performance look like? And it's almost using that word related to churches, is almost like taboo. Like, wait, what are you talking about? What I'm talking about is effectiveness of ministry, and if 85% of our budget is all about what happens on a Sunday, then we are deceiving ourselves thinking that we're actually building a church. Now, I'm not talking about the building. I'm talking about the people. The people are far more than Sunday mornings. The people function every day, and some of them actually work a full work week as staff members every week. And what are we doing to create a culture so that they love their job so much they can't wait to come. I'm sad to say that many people join staff of churches because they believe so deeply in the beauty of the church, as the body that Jesus gave his life for, the bride that he's coming for. But then their experience as a day to buy day worker in the church is that this is not a rewarding, enjoyable experience. It's something they endure. And they keep telling themselves, they should endure it because it's so important and lovely. Why can't we make both things happen? Why can't it be a beautiful, lovely, divine body that is also healthy because it's being led well and culture is a purposeful attention as opposed to an unintended byproduct.

Robert: Yes, amen. I couldn't agree with that more. And especially as people come in to serve in a church, often they have an unrealistic expectation of what ministry looks like because it's church, it's divine. So, they come in, not realizing, we're dealing with real people here, real personalities, real differences. So, that’s all the more reason for, especially in that church environment, to for pastors and leaders, executive pastors, to really emphasize culture engagement, a Christ honoring environment, the humility, all these elements trust that we're talking about. Because sometimes people come in and they begin to serve and work in a church, and they become very disillusioned because it's so different from what they expected it to be as a church. As leaders, we really have to be aware of that. And, you know, there's going to be those tensions in any work environment, but how we handle them becomes the key issue, and handling them well is exactly what you're talking about, Jim.

Jim: Right. And let's just admit that the fruitfulness of church matters in eternity. So, I'm using the word performance. It sounds much more corporate, but I hope that we can all agree that there is an effectiveness that we're aiming for within churches. Here's another buzz line that we can underscore. Culture is a performance multiplier. Are we going to work on culture because we really care about how effective we are as a ministry, or are we going to just wish that people would just do the right thing because it's right? That sounds not even out of place, except what if we pointed the finger at ourselves and said, “But what's the right thing that we need to do? If we are leading culture is part of our responsibility.” And at Best Christian Workplaces, you have been underscoring this for many, many years. I'm delighted to know many pastors that have worked with your inventory for like 10 years and step by step, year by year, they see improvements made which compound, that's the thing that I want leaders to especially grasp, is when we keep working at this so that next year is better, and then next year is better on top of that, the compounding impact is beyond what you could quite hope for year by year. It’s big.

Robert: Yes. I think that's a perfect spot for us to wrap up our conversation. Culture is a multiplier of outcome. It's the kingdom outcome, and culture begins with the leader. Leadership is essential. It cannot move forward intentionally without leadership starting that and being aware of that process. So, thank you, Jim for highlighting these incredible truths. I really enjoyed this conversation with you. It's very clear why you are so competent, you know have done so much incredible work over the years. Just listening to you has been really, really awesome. And it’s been a delight.

Jim: I would add, I'm very passionate about this too, Robert. It's not just a good idea. It's like people's lives change when leaders make healthy cultures.

Robert: Yes, yes. There is financial impact. There is people impact. There is kingdom impact. All of it. And people are the most important part of it.

Would you mind 30 seconds of rapid fire just so we can get to know you a little bit better?

Jim: Sure, yeah.

Robert: So, just off the top of the head, I have three rapid fire questions for you. I think I know the answer to a couple of those from your book, but I want to hear it from you. So, are you a morning person or are you a night owl?

Jim: Definitely a morning person. But I will also admit that my best ideas often happen in the middle of the night. I get awakened and come to my desk, and a lot of the book was written in the middle of the night.

Robert: Wow, best of both worlds. Okay. I think I know the answer to this too. But are you a hard truth guy or a gentle nudge guy?

Jim: Hard truth, give it to me straight.

Robert: Okay. How about in your delivery?

Jim: Well, this is something that I work on. Perhaps you've heard the statement by Brene Brown, clarity is kindness. And I think that it's tempting to be soft, and we are confusing, thinking that we're being kind to the other person, but we're actually just protecting ourselves. So, I don't want to be hard in delivery, but I want to be clear in delivery. Clarity matters.

Robert: Perfect. Final one. Coffee shop or quiet office desk?

Jim: Definitely quiet office. Yeah.

Robert: Okay, you heard it, ladies and gentlemen. Well, Jim, thank you so much. Just as a reminder to our listeners, Jim's book, The Imperfect CEO, will be released May 19, 2026, so look for that. Where can people find you online? Where can they learn more about you, Jim?

Jim: The best and simplest way is to actually just go to LinkedIn and search, Jim Brown, Org Health. That's a made up word combining organizational health. Org health. You'll find me, message me. In fact, if you message me the word faith, I will send you a resource about applying the model that we use in the book, specifically to churches. Happy to just try to equip all of you leaders to make churches healthier.

Robert: Okay, so go to LinkedIn, find Jim Brown on LinkedIn, and you'll see Org Health, send the message faith. Beautiful. Well, Jim, thank you so much. Thank you so much. I hope we can do more of this in the future, and God bless you in your work, and we'll be praying for you. And thank you for the support you've given to us at BCW, and let's just keep on the journey helping leaders, helping organizations grow and flourish.

Jim: Amen, thank you, Robert, bless all that you're doing at BCW.

Robert: Amen, God bless you. Take care.

[music]