Transcript: From Burnout to a Rekindled Passion in Your Calling // Jim Cymbala, Brooklyn Tabernacle

The Flourishing Culture Podcast Series

“From Burnout to a Rekindled Passion in Your Calling“

October 17, 2022

Jim Cymbala

Intro: Are skinny jeans and fog machines at the heart of your church's growth strategy? Well, who are you turning to for help, and what are the best strategies for growth? Today's show, with pastor and author Jim Cymbala of the Brooklyn Tabernacle, answers your questions. Listen in as he fans the flame to renew your calling to finish the work that you have received.

Al Lopus: Hi, I'm Al Lopus, and you're listening to the Flourishing Culture Podcast, where we help you create and lead a flourishing workplace. We find the problem many employers are facing today is readjusting to our post-COVID, hybrid world. The great resignation is still evident, where employees are quitting at record levels, filling millions of open jobs, even as we face a cooling economy and record-setting wage inflation. We know that having a flourishing workplace with fully engaged employees is the solution. So this week, we're talking about moving forward on the road to flourishing, no matter where you're starting from.

Serving as a pastor or ministry leader has never been easy. But recent data show a high level of fatigue and discouragement among pastors, and many are leaving the ministry. In fact, in a recent survey by Barna research, it shows that 38% of pastors have thought about quitting full-time ministry in the past year. We've also seen similar data for other ministry leaders as well. So the question is, how can you, as a pastor or Christian leader, find renewed passion in your calling and regular refreshment so you aren’t serving on empty?

Today's podcast will highlight ways to fan the flame of the calling God has placed on you so that you can continue to serve with passion. I'm really excited to welcome Jim Cymbala, the pastor of the renowned Brooklyn Tabernacle. Jim has been a pastor for more than 50 years, and he has a heart for encouraging and equipping other pastors. Jim’s written several best-selling books, including Fresh Wind, Fresh Fire, and his most recent book is called Fan the Flame. Jim, it's great to have you on the Flourishing Culture Podcast.

Jim Cymbala: Thank you for having me, Al.

Al: I'm really looking forward to our conversation.

You know, you and I have both seen the data about how pastors are discouraged coming out of this unique pandemic period in ministry. We also acknowledge that the issue is also to lift up pastors and church staff to move forward. But for those of us who are seasoned with years of work and ministry behind us, this isn't the first difficult season that we've lived through. You've been a pastor and in pastoral ministry now for five decades. Can you share a time or a story from a past time of discouragement, and how did you find hope during a difficult season and find a way to move forward?

Jim: Well. Oh, in my own personal case, I had countless encounters with discouragement. I didn't go to seminary or Bible school, so God brought me into the ministry through a side door, shall we say. And my wife and I began, in a little rundown building in downtown Brooklyn, with less than 20 people in the congregation. And the first offering we took on the Sunday morning, the tithes and offerings, if you want to use that word, phrase, was $85. So right there you have discouragement number one.

And then on top of that, my sermons were so bad—I was just learning—that people were converting to other religions during my sermons, and that's never a good sign. And so no money. We had to get second jobs.

There were many times where I just had to go back to God, get alone with my Bible and with Lord alone and say, “God, you have to recharge my batteries.”

You know what’s interesting on that, though, because “burnout” is the common word now in people wanting to quit. I personally think that 38% number is low. The last one I saw is 42% who admit it. Think of all the guys pounding their Bible on a Sunday morning, but secretly they're defeated in spirit.

Paul the Apostle went through things we can’t imagine—beat half to death, thrown in the open sea, shipwrecked, in jail, trouble in the country, trouble in the city, etc., etc.—and never says the word “discouragement” or never says the word “burnout” in any of his writings. So for what I've learned and what I'm trying to share in this book Fan the Flame, there are resources in God that can keep us above the fray so that we don't burn out and want to quit. It's just getting to the same resources that Paul was using.

Al: Yeah.

Well, Jim, you know, you mentioned Fan the Flame: Let Jesus Renew Your Calling and Revive Your Church, and you use the example of Paul and his ministry. And he certainly experienced tiredness, and he faced adversity, and—

Jim: Yeah.

Al: —as you say, lots of challenges. But you cite the words of Paul in Second Corinthians 4:16, “Therefore, we do not lose heart. Though outwardly we are wasting away, yet inwardly we are being renewed day by day.” And in your own life, how do you practice day-by-day types of renewal that Paul's talking about here in Second Corinthians? Are there some practices that you would recommend to pastors who are feeling the weariness of the ministry life?

Jim: Yes. I think the key there is to also recognize, just as you were saying, Al, your whole life is one day: it’s today. Yesterday, you can't do a thing about, and tomorrow is not guaranteed. And I think even as Jesus taught us to pray, “Give us this day our daily bread,” we have to live more focused on today. If you think about yesterday and mistakes and who said what and some social-media attack, you can easily give in to discouragement. If you worry about tomorrow and what that might bring, there's problems there, too.

So, number one, my whole life is one day: today. God will not give me grace for next Friday today. I only have today. So just living day by day is to help.

And then what Paul said, he was renewed day by day. I know from myself I have to start the day alone with God. And in my case, I have a collection of daily devotionals, but I use them in a different way. I'll take two or three or four of them, different ones that I found that are not run of the mill—they really are helpful to me—and I'll look at the verse and the thought that the writer has, or they gathered from other spiritual giants what they've written. And then I'll go and read the entire chapter where that verse came from.

And then alone with the Lord, I try to have my own meeting. I even can sing along to my phone. I do everything but take an offering. Someone has to speak into our lives. You see, we tell our people,
“No, don't stay home and read your Bible. Come to church on Sunday or another day of the week on top of that.” And if they say, “No, I'll get it from the Bible.” “No, you've got to come.” “Why?” “Because I'm going to minister to you. That's why God put shepherds in the church, to feed the sheep.” Well, the question is, who feeds the shepherds? Who’s feeding us? Who’s challenging us? Who’s bringing us to another place in God where we've never been?

So I try to have continually my own services because I'm always giving out, traveling; giving out, counseling; giving out. And then the question is, who's helping me get to God, the throne of grace, so I can receive mercy and fresh grace to help me for that day?

Al: So have our own service every morning. And do everything just short of taking a collection. Yeah. That's fantastic, Jim. Yeah. So much of life and the life of faith comes back to fundamentals and disciplines. And you describe in the book exercising self-leadership in your own daily quest to be renewed by the Holy Spirit.

But you're also leading a larger staff, and you mentioned being a shepherd. Are there some specific ways that you and your leadership team have created a culture of regular renewal among your staff when you think now of your staff? What does that regular refreshment look like as you shepherd those who are leading and serving in different ministries in your church, for example?

Jim: Right. Well, the church is vast, and there’s 40-some ministries that are in operation with leaders over them and pastors over those leaders if the pastors, associates are not leading it themselves. So we meet together at least once a week, the pastors, and we talk and pray and we discuss things.

And what's also helpful is we have staff meetings, where we pray and wait on the Lord and sing together and try to kill the corporate atmosphere. The corporate world and corporate thinking and worldly leadership principles have invaded the church. So we have church-growth methods that are coming from technicians, not men and women of God, not who saw fruit and revival and conversions. They’re just very clever.

And listen, wisdom is needed. But Jesus put the Holy Spirit in charge of all things pertaining to the Church. When Jesus was on Earth, He was in charge of everything: the disciples. When He left town, when He left Capernaum, they followed. He stopped at another place, and wherever, they stopped. And He was their leader. And He said, “Now I'm sending another helper.” And in saying that, the Holy Spirit, invisible, though He is in charge of everything, the running of a local church, no pastor is in charge of his church. The Holy Spirit, He brings, as the Spirit of Christ, the leadership, direction, wisdom that we need. And that's what we need to pursue.

So a staff meeting together, praying, waiting on the Lord, praying for one another, that's what refreshes us individually. And that's something that no corporation or no corporate-leadership principles can teach us. Because I don't know about anyone else, I need daily grace. I need encouragement from those I work with, and I need to encourage them. And together, as we seek the Lord, He's going to pour out His grace upon us.

Remember, the early church was known as continually devoting themselves to the Apostles’ Doctrine, the Word; the breaking of bread, eating meals together; the Koinonia, the fellowship, sharing everything together; and prayer. And on that last note of praying together, I think it's too rare where we can describe our churches as houses of prayer, and we need it for this, too.

Al: Absolutely.

So, as you observe the church today, you know, you're realistic about the different ways leaders and congregations can lose focus on the Good News and even get distracted. And you describe four detours—and I think we've all seen these detours—four detours that can pull a pastor and the congregation off track. You talk about tradition, the latest trends, politics, and the culture around us. And I'd love your thoughts on how these detours can really trip up leaders and churches.

Jim: Well, yeah. I don't know if I have the time to go into all four. They can read the book. But I'd like to talk about a couple that I think are so important.

We're supposed to convert the culture. And I think in too many places the culture is evangelizing the church, so that the thinking of the church is carnal and based on what the world says is hip, what works, very formulaic. And as Tozer said, if you can explain the church, then God isn't in it. There has to be that supernatural element, like among the early church. What? Fishermen, tax collectors, who had recently fled when Jesus was arrested and one denied the Lord three times, and they're in charge?, and yet thousands are being added to the church? How was that happening? They weren't depending on the culture or asking the culture, “What do you want us to talk about, pastor as life coach? What did you want to talk about? Here's five ways to improve your resumé making.” No, it was in love. Not legalistically, not condemnatory. Preaching the Good News of Christ and the power of the Holy Spirit. And in a lot of churches, we've moved away from that. So we're borrowing from the world, and we end up with not too much more than skinny jeans and a fog machine as being like, “See? We identify with you.” That's not the Christian church. And it's unheard of since the Reformation, hundreds of years have gone by, no one has ever thought this way, “The way to convert people is to become like them.”

So that's one very dangerous, I think, trap, because, you know, when Moses gave his two long speeches in Deuteronomy, he warned the people, when you go in the promised land, make sure that the religious practices of the idols around you in Canaan—Molech, and Baal and Ashtaroth and others—don't let them now come in and cause the syncretism in the worship of the true God as I commanded you when the Lord gave me directions on the Holy Mount.

So what was that? It's a warning that the culture around us is always trying to squeeze us in its mold. So we talk and think and, like, we'll win them if we're like them. That is not true. That has never been true. No revival has ever shown that to be true. So that's a warning.

And then the other one is just politics in the sense that the reason pastors are quitting—I was stuck 16 months in Florida. March 8, 2020, Carol and I went down for five days of rest, and the only home we own is down there. We rarely get to it. We rent an apartment a block from the church here in downtown Brooklyn. It turned into 16 months. So I was meeting with pastors every week, and these pastors were opening up and telling me their trials, tribulations, testings, discouragement. And no matter what they said, the people were attacking them, not because they were going away from Scripture but because the people were identifying more as white or black, or Fox News or CNN, or Republicans or Democrats. And when a fellow believer disagreed with them, they tore their throat out, it would seem, which really reveals something, I think, horrible about where we are now. We’re not fighting over the inspiration of Scripture; we’re fighting over, “How dare you disagree with my political decision.” Too woke, not woke enough; vaccine, no vaccine; mask, no mask. And to try to identify with one political party or movement, no matter where you might agree with them and then disagree on others, it's the death knell of Christianity. Don't put your trust in princes.

The Republicans and Democrats are no more an answer for the problems of, let's say, America than I can do brain surgery. They don't have a clue. Jesus is the only answer, and He's not trying to build a better America; He's trying to build His church. He said that. “I'm going to build My church.” So He gave us the privilege of building the church, and let's keep at that and not fall into one of these other sidetracks.

Al: I trust you’re enjoying our podcast today. We’ll be right back after an important word for leaders.

Book Promotion: I want to tell you about an exciting, new opportunity for all of you who want to create and experience a flourishing workplace culture. It’s the release of my new book, Road to Flourishing. It describes the eight keys to boost employee engagement and well-being in your workplace. Let’s break the cycles of toxicity, dysfunction, destructive conflict, fear, and unwanted turnover. Road to Flourishing is designed to help you understand what drives employee engagement and how we can move the needle on the health of your organization’s culture and performance. This book is designed for you, a Christian leader in business, a church, or a nonprofit. It includes real stories of flourishing workplaces as a great tool for your development, a book study with your leadership team, and a developmental resource for your frontline managers. Let’s change the narrative and reality. Join the ranks of leaders who are skillfully leading flourishing workplace cultures. Buy Road to Flourishing today wherever books are sold.

Al: And now, back to today’s special guest.

Yeah. Great, great views on two detours, culture and politics. And yeah, as you say, there’s more, but let's move on, because you also talk about in the book that we need to have pastors and followers of Jesus to read and follow the unabridged Bible. You have a chapter in your book about the unabridged Bible rather than selective Bible teaching. And you're not saying the unabridged Bible is a certain translation; you're talking about it in a different context. And in fact, you talk about Paul in Ephesians, where he says—well, in Ephesus, where he talks about in Acts 20, “You know that I have not hesitated to preach anything that would be helpful to you. I have not hesitated to proclaim to you the whole will of God.” So why do you think pastors might be holding back or hesitating to preach the full story of God and the Good News?

Jim: Yeah. That's so obvious that it's like by meeting with hundreds of pastors down in Florida, it's turned in, for too many, to be a numbers game. Numbers, more people coming mean I'm more important. And churches are not judged by their spiritual qualities as in the New Testament: “I heard of your faith and your love for all the saints.” We don't talk that way. We talk, “What are you running, what's your budget, and what's your building look like?” End of story.

Well, if you want more people coming, you have to find out what turns them off. Now you're not pleasing the Lord; you're pleasing the people.

I just heard today, while I’m taping this with you, about a conference of so-called church-growth leaders, millennial leaders, and all of that well known, where the question was, in this discussion, “So what is sin?” And they went, “That's a very difficult question to answer,” as they're going around the circle. “It's a mystery, kind of. And it's everyone's really just hurting somewhere.” And it was total gobbledygook. Nobody would have answered that like that over the last 300 years. In other words, no one was going to say, “It's a violation of God's law. God is holy. God’s a law giver. The wages of sin is death,” because that might mean, if you preached that, somebody would take it like, “You mean I can't sleep around anymore? You mean I can't stop hating black people or white people or whatever people?” In other words, “Oh, but you're saying there's a Savior from my sin. But you're saying that I have to change? No. I didn't come here to church to be criticized. You don't know what I've been through this week. I need somebody to lift me up.” And, thus, to keep the numbers game going, it’s, “What do I say to keep them coming back next week?” Might they go to a place of punishment for all eternity because I never gave them the gospel? That's not even considered too much from the countless cases that you hear today.

As someone said to me in Florida, “Listen, Jim, we don't mention sin or much even about salvation in the biblical sense, because people have it hard. They don't come in to be judged. That's hate speech. Listen, they say this: God loves me. God wants me to be happy because He loves me. This thing I'm involved in makes me happy. End of story. Obviously, the good man upstairs is for what I’m doing.” And everyone knows that's the theology now of there’s no difference, ostensibly, in the lifestyles of most people who go to church. And by the way, the average churchgoer is now going 1.8 times a month—1.8 times a month, the average churchgoer attends church. So this is why there's not much a difference in the lifestyles. We've created and normalized Christianity, a kind of lukewarm state.

And I don't want to sound negative or the glass is half empty, but, I mean, look at our culture, and look at the churches. Ministers dropping out at 1500 a month from the ministry. Churches now shrinking. Every denominational leader tells me we're at an all-time high of empty pulpits. Attendance dwindling, very few converts made proportionately with water baptism. When do you hear many testimonies of, “Hey, I was lost, but now I'm found. I was doing this, and now I'm here”? That's gone out of style. It's like, “No, dude, I like hanging out there. I feel a good vibe. I might come back next week.” Good. That's not Christianity.

Al: No. And I love what you say: we need to lead a different lifestyle than the culture if we're truly Christians. No question.

Jim: Yes.

Al: And Jim, you're definitely known as a man of prayer. And that's been a hallmark of your church for many years, really a core aspect of it. And in your book, you say every spiritual renewal that has ever happened has begun with prayer, not special preaching, not new methods, not doing church, but simply believers praying for the fire of the Holy Spirit to be kindled among them. So why do you think that some have lost their way in terms of the emphasis on prayer? How can pastors and Christian leaders refocus on prayer as a fundamental practice?

Jim: Well, if you study the history of revivals that you alluded to or personal renewal, or God turning the corner with a church and making it become a lighthouse again, and all that, it all starts with spiritual discontent. I can’t take this anymore. I will not accept the same old, same old. I'm not going to live and see nobody converted in the New Testament sense. I'm not going to go with the flow; I want to go against. I want to see God open the heavens and come down. If He could use Peter and James and John, failures as they were in many ways, He can use me. But the only way I'm going to receive that mercy from past mistakes and fresh grace is at the throne of grace. When God tells us, “Come boldly to the throne of grace,” He never says, “Let's come boldly to church,” or “Let's come boldly to the sermon.” He says, “Let's come boldly to the throne of grace.”

So my wife is a very, very gifted musician and won six Grammy Awards with her choir. And she's not trained musically. She cannot do what she does without the help of the Holy Spirit, which is only plugged into at the throne of Grace. I cannot preach, I cannot lead here without God's help. So, thus, I have to continually go to God and say, “Renew my strength. I wait before You. What should I preach? Direct me. What decisions should the leadership make?” So really, prayer is like, as some writer said, it's like, really, breathing. You have to be constantly looking to God and saying, “God, I need you.” When Jesus said, “My house should be called a house of prayer,” He wasn't laying on us some legalistic, “Come on, now. You've got to pray. You’ve got to pray.” No, it was, “I want to help you. I have everything you need, but you have not because you ask not.” And maybe that's the saddest epitaph that could be put on someone's tombstone: they had not because they asked not. It was God’s purpose for me to live in mediocrity. It was God’s purpose not to bear fruit. No, no, no, no, no, no. You had not because you asked not.

So in my book Fan the Flame, I'm just trying to encourage all of us, let's go to God in a fresh, new way, like children, trusting Him and see what He might do.

Al: Yeah, let's do that. Yeah, I agree, Jim.

You know, the core message of your book is for pastors. Fan the Flame offers encouragement to pastors, pointing them to their calling and their relationship with Jesus, much like you've just described. But some of our podcast listeners are leaders in other spheres. They’re Christian business leaders or leaders of Christian nonprofits or Christian educational institutions, other ministries. So how does your message apply to those in these spheres of Christian leadership? And what does your book offer to lay leaders and everyday Christians in the workplace or even at home?

Jim: Well, number one, the principles that I tried to lay out from the Bible for Christian leaders who are pastors, associate masters, and missionaries, leaders like that, is basically it's we need God, and we don't have to convince Him to help us; He wants to help us. But let's get our hearts back into line with God. Let's trust the Holy Spirit, walk in the Spirit. Let's avail ourselves of what they call the means of grace. But for a business leader or anybody else, obviously, God wants us to shine wherever He puts us, right? They can shine, and they can glow for God.

We just recently had here coach Tony Dungy, who's a football commentator and a Super Bowl winner for the Pittsburgh Steelers as a player, then as a coach with the Indianapolis Colts. He also coached in Tampa. And now award-winning commentator. He was talking to us about how God uses him in these positions. And it was beautiful. But beyond that, I believe there's a calling. I think the Scripture proves it. There's some work assignment within the body of Christ for everyone. Vice president of a bank or a housewife, schoolteacher or someone who works in I.T. What is that calling? I don't know. But you have to find that out from God. But at the end of Colossians, Paul says this strange word right at the end, “Tell Archippus,” who is not an apostle or an ordained minister as best we know, “Tell Archippus, ‘Complete the work that you received in the Lord.’” So there must have been some assignment, some gifting in the spiritual realm. Non-Christians can be great bankers and basketball players and all of that. But Archippus seemed to have started something, maybe working with kids, maybe in Christian music, maybe in short-term mission trips. I don't know what it was, in ministry of prayer. “Tell him ‘Finish the work that you received in the Lord.’” And I talk about that in Fan the Flame because there's so many valuable giftings and callings that have been laid aside.

So what has evolved, Al? You and I know it like the back of our hand. “We’ll come to church every Sunday if you're fortunate, and you guys on the platform do the work. That's what I pay you for. Hey, do the work,” and that's nowhere found in the New Testament. We're all members of the body. We all have a function. I think too few of us are asking the Lord, “What can I do to build Your kingdom??

Al: Yeah. That's something everybody can do and should do. Yeah, absolutely.

And Jim, you’ve just proven to us you're a prophetic voice calling the church in America back to the essentials of following Jesus and living out our faith. What makes you hopeful about the future, then? Are there places where you're seeing God moving in a new, fresh way? Or do you even see new leaders rising up to lead the next generation of the church forward?

Jim: I do. I feel sad in one way when I look at the landscape because so many have gone the way of some kind of simplistic formula, which is going to change in 18 months, and somebody’s going to have the new way to build your church, and they're talking about PowerPoints and new fog machines or whatever. And, look, all of that has its place. But please, that has nothing to do with building the spiritual kingdom called the Church of Christ. So that saddens me.

But a lot of them are getting sick and tired of being sick and tired. A lot of them are, I think, discovering, “Wait a minute. Maybe in the book called the New Testament, God laid out how He wants His church to be built, His way for His glory, through His strength, to bear fruit through His grace.” And I'm finding more and more people now, they're talking about, “We got to get a new emphasis on prayer in our church.”

And I want to preach the gospel that Paul talked about. I'm not ashamed of the gospel, because it—that one singular gospel that we find in the New Testament. And you don't need a Ph.D. to preach it—I'm not ashamed of it, for it, the gospel, is the power of God unto salvation. If we're not making converts, new creations, we can't be preaching that gospel, because it has power. And more and more people now, look, with the culture around us falling apart at the seams, with everyone realizing government no more has an answer than the man in the moon, serious leaders and Christians are saying, “Come on, God. Open the heavens and help us to do Your work so we see a new day.”

Al: “Come on, God. Open the heavens.” That's our prayer, for sure, Jim.

Well, we've learned so much from our conversation. And I'm just reflecting back, thinking just about the importance of one day, is the way you kind of started off. Let's work on today. Live day by day. Start alone with God. That's how we're going to find replenishment. Count on prayer. And for our church staff, as we shepherd our church staffs, to meet regularly, to have regular meetings, discussions, to sing together, not just on Sunday mornings, right, Jim?

Jim: Yes.

Al: To sing together. And to really pray and let the Holy Spirit, put the Holy Spirit in charge not only of our lives, but of the Church. I love your encouragement there. And to stay away from the detours, the things that can detour the Church. You know, you really said some great words on culture and politics. It shouldn’t, just how it can't be part of the Church going forward. And how the unabridged Bible, as you have a chapter in your book, nowhere does Jesus say anything about the numbers game, as you called it. And we need a different, lead a different lifestyle as Christians to be a light to the world. And how, yes, renewal through the Holy Spirit. And you just really pointed out, Jesus is asking us to call out to Him to help us, and He wants to help us and through prayer. And how, yep, I loved your point. Jesus is saying, “Complete the work that you have received in Me and the Lord. Complete the work that you have received.” So there's a challenge for us just to go forward. We all know that we've got work to do that God has given us and to complete that work.

Well, Jim, this has been fantastic. Is there anything that you'd like for us to add or that you'd like to add about what we've talked about?

Jim: This is where fulfillment comes that keeps you going despite the stress of ministry and the culture we live in and the animosity in the culture against Christianity. Yesterday, we have a time from 12 to 1 o’clock. We have a Tuesday night prayer meeting, which, you know, had a huge crowd gathering to pray and praise. But during the day, from 12:00 to 1:00, we open the church, and people who are in downtown Brooklyn who are free and want to just sit in God's presence from 12:00 to 1:00, in a dimly lit auditorium, there's some taped music quietly playing. And I'm in there with them at the end. And I read a verse, exhort for five, seven, eight minutes at the end.

So as I get up, Al, and I read something from Luke 12, I noticed this African American guy in the second row looking at me. And it was over, you know, there were maybe 90, 80, 90 people there, and it's become a great thing we do. And so he walks up to me after we close, and I shake his hand, and I go, “Hi, how are you?” Well, I don't know personally all the people who come to our church. And he says to me, “Oh, hi. I just want you know this is the second time I'm here.” And I went, “Second time you’re here. How would you know that we even meet between 12:00 and 1:00? This is not one of our ‘regular’ services.” “No. I found it on the website.” I said, “Oh, so what's your name?” He told me. “So where are you from?” “Jamaica, in the Caribbean.” “So what are you here for?” “Oh, I'm going to school at Baruch College, in the city.” And I said, “Oh, really?” He said, “Yeah, but, you know, I just feel I need…” and he kind of groped for words. And I said, “Excuse me, are you a Christian?” And he went, “Well, I'm going to church. They brought me to church when I was little.” I said, “No. Have you ever been born again? Have you ever received Christ as your savior?” “No.” “You want to do it now?”

Now, I've dismissed the meeting. Maybe 30, 40 are left mingling in the back, talking. And I said, “I'll pray with you right now.” I explained the gospel. I prayed with him. Then I asked him to repeat out loud, “Lord, I do believe in my heart and confess with my mouth. I'm a sinner. I need a Savior. Please forgive me. My bad. I'm wrong. You're right. Forgive me. Thank You for loving me so much that You want to pardon me and give me new life.” And I led him to Christ.

And then I grabbed the microphone, and I just yelled to the people who were still in the auditorium, “Hey, listen. This is such and such, so and so. He just received Christ as his Savior.” And they cheered and ran to the front, and they were hugging him. And he was looking around, all these people hugging him. So I went to bed last night after a wonderful prayer meeting, too. Nobody has more fulfillment than that.

Al: Yeah.

Jim: I didn't want to meet the president. I don't want to meet the King of England. I don't want to be famous. I don't want a big car. Who cares about that? To lay in bed and know that someone's eternal destiny has changed through that little encounter, oh, are you kidding? And that's how simple it is to me. That's what keeps me going: making a difference in people's lives through Jesus Christ.

Al: We call that life-giving work, Jim. Absolutely. There's nothing better.

Well, Jim, thanks for your contributions today. And most of all, I appreciate your commitment, as we've just heard, to preaching and teaching the Good News of Jesus and pointing to Him as the only hope for the world. And thank you for your time and speaking into the lives of so many today. Thanks, Jim.

Jim: Thank you for having me.

Outro: Thank you for joining us on the Flourishing Culture Podcast and for investing this time in your workplace culture. If there's a specific insight, story, or action step you've enjoyed, please share it with others so they can benefit, too. Please share this podcast with friends on social media, and show your support by rating, reviewing, and subscribing wherever you listen.

This program is copyrighted by the Best Christian Workplaces Institute. All rights reserved. Our social-media and marketing manager is Solape Osoba.

Remember, a healthy workplace culture drives greater impact and growth for your organization. We'll see you again soon on the Flourishing Culture Podcast.