Transcript: Inside the 2024 Certified Best Christian Workplaces: Encouragement, Excellence, and Engagement // Tara VanderSande, Doug Waldo, and Cary Humphries, Best Christian Workplaces

Flourishing Culture Leadership Podcast

“Inside the 2024 Certified Best Christian Workplaces: Encouragement, Excellence, and Engagement“

April 21, 2025

Tara VanderSande, Doug Waldo, and Cary Humphries

Intro: What separates good workplaces from truly flourishing ones in Christian organizations? Well, in this inspiring episode you'll hear stories from three seasoned BCW consultants—Tara VanderSande, Doug Waldo, and Cary Humphries—featuring just a few of the incredible ministries and organizations recently named to the 2024 list of Certified Best Christian Workplaces. From church transformation in Montana to a school in Florida building a culture of discipleship, to global nonprofits and Christ-centered businesses driving spiritual and operational impact, you'll discover real-life strategies that fuel flourishing cultures. Whether you lead a school, a church, a nonprofit, or a Christian-led business, this episode is filled with practical wisdom and fresh vision to help you grow a workplace culture where people and ministry thrive.

Welcome: Welcome to the Flourishing Culture Leadership Podcast, your home for open, honest, and insightful conversations to help develop your leadership, your team, and build a flourishing workplace culture.

Al Lopus: Hi, I’m Al Lopus, co-founder of the Best Christian Workplaces and author of Road to Flourishing, the go-to research-based, Christ-centered guide to building a flourishing workplace culture. My passion is to equip Christian leaders like you create engaged, flourishing workplaces, where people thrive and organizations make a Kingdom impact. And if you'd like to learn more about my book, opportunities to have me speak, or this podcast, or recent articles I've written, I invite you to visit allopus.org. That’s A-L-L-O-P-U-S dot org. Let’s journey together toward building workplaces where your faith, leadership, and organization flourish.

This year, more than 280 remarkable organizations across 10 countries have been named to the 2024 list of Certified Best Christian Workplaces, each one demonstrating what it means to lead with trust, purpose, and Christ-centered values. To celebrate and reflect on this incredible milestone, I've invited three of our seasoned BCW consultants, Tara VanderSande, Doug Waldo, and Cary Humphries, to share stories and common themes from these thriving cultures. Their first-hand insights reveal what's working, how leaders are growing, and why flourishing workplaces are making such a powerful Kingdom impact today. Don't miss this episode. It's packed with inspiration and practical takeaways that you can use in your own leadership journey.

In fact, throughout our conversation our guests will share how flourishing Christian workplaces intentionally align their culture and their mission through practices like discipleship, servant leadership, and values-based decision making; their practical examples of what it looks like to have a high-trust, high-impact team in churches, schools, nonprofits, and businesses; and key steps leaders can take to move from cultural health to true flourishing, using proven tools and biblical principles.

I think you're going to love this interview. But before we dive in, this episode is brought to you by the Best Christian Workplaces’ Employee Engagement Survey, the largest, most-trusted engagement and culture assessment for faith-based organizations. If you're a Christian leader seeking a proven way to strengthen your culture, this is the moment. BCW has more than 1,500 Christian-led ministries, schools, and businesses that have used this transformational assessment, giving you confidence that it truly works. Also, the more organizations join, each one benefits from deeper benchmarking, richer insights, and a growing community of flourishing workplaces. And BCW's FLOURISH Model is the only research-based, statistically proven, and biblically grounded engagement framework designed specifically for Christian-led organizations. If you're serious about building a Christ-centered, thriving workplace, don't wait. Visit workplaces.org to learn more and to take the next step toward a flourishing culture today.

And hello to our new listeners. Thanks for joining us as we honor your investment of time by creating valuable episodes like this.

Let me tell you just a little bit more about our guests. Tara VanderSande brings deep experience in engagement, leadership development, and talent strategy, helping Christian leaders and teams thrive through intentional spiritually grounded principles. Doug Waldo, a PhD, is a seasoned culture coach with decades of executive experience, compassion about equipping leaders to align organizational health with Kingdom purpose. And Cary Humphries draws on his senior-leadership background in both business and ministry to guide Christian organizations toward greater trust, clarity, and impact.

So, here’s my conversation with Tara, Doug, and Cary.

Al: I’d like to introduce you to Tara VanderSande, a senior engagement and talent consultant with BCW, and now in her seventh year, and, of course, Tara and I've known each other many years before that. Tara focuses much of her time serving some of the larger churches that we serve across the country, as well as several other ministry partners. And she's going to talk with us today about four specific ones that were on the list of the 2024 Best Christian Workplaces.

Tara, welcome, and tell us about the first organization you want to share with us.

Tara VanderSande: Great. Always great to be with you, Al. Love our history of partnering with Christian organizations over the years.

Yeah. I was looking over the list of the certified organizations from the last quarter and was just so, so thrilled to see many of our ministry partners returning, not just being healthy, but also moving into flourishing. And for me, that is a really exciting journey.

A couple of the ministry partners I've selected have been with Best Christian Workplaces for engagement and for leadership development for several years. So that is the first thing I'll say just overall is just the longevity of regardless of the scores, many of them having healthy scores for five-plus, six-plus years and coming back and saying, “A part of the cadence of a healthy culture is to measure the culture, to know where we're at, to ask for feedback from our staff, and then to engage our staff on what that feedback really means and how to continue growing.” And that's really a theme for all of the organizations I've picked.

So, the first one that I've selected is Harvest Church in Billings, Montana. This is a fantastic group that has seen a significant amount of change. They had a huge leadership change a couple of years ago where their culture had been healthy for a long period of time, and they were curious, would this change, this disruption actually change their culture? And one of the things that we have found, and we have found this over time with all of ministry partners, is that if they have a really strong foundation in Inspirational Leadership—meaning a high level of trust between staff and leaders, that staff are experiencing a consistency of the behaviors and values across all of the leaders, and they feel like their church is run like a well-oiled machine; it's well managed; they can be comfortable and be confident in the way the church is run—when that is strong, when you have significant changes in leadership or strategy or even within the community, we're finding it's not as disruptive.

So, Harvest Church, they are now in a flourishing category. For us that means, you know, scores that are in the upper echelon, over a 4.25 over a 5.0 score. And I asked the pastor this year, “What was different?” And the pastor, Adam Barton, had said to me, he said, “I really had to take a hard look at what being a visionary leader meant to me.” He said, “I've never really viewed myself as a visionary leader.” He said, “Shepherd, pastor, organizational developer, yes. But the scores that came back in 2024,” he said, “made me realize that I could do more. I could it differently.” And so he said, “I really started praying about, what is a vision I could cast for our staff, not just our congregation?” And he said, “God showed me that our vision is the name of our church. That, how are we reaping a harvest?” And he said, “Then, that vision just kind of took a life of its own within the staff and just cultivating meaning from that and goals from that, and, how do we want to talk about that in ways that really stirred the hearts of people?” And we saw that in all their scores going up, especially around Inspirational Leadership. So for me, that was both an Engagement Survey reflection, but also a God-sized prayer that was answered.

Al: Wow. That’s a great story, Tara. Thanks so much. And yeah, we've had a long history with Harvest Church. And I'll say, over a dozen years ago, they were in the lower 10% of scores for churches, and how they have really moved ahead and now with new leadership. And your point about if you have high trust levels, consistency, following key values, then that allows employees in a church to really thrive. And I love the story about, okay, what does it mean? The Survey brings out to somebody, what does it mean to be a visionary leader? Yeah, fantastic.

What's next?

Tara: Yeah. So, one of the other churches that I wanted to select is one near my hometown, and that's First Orlando. And obviously, they're outside of Orlando, Florida, which is where I reside now. And not only have I gotten to know them as our ministry partner, but they have become just dear friends, and that's what I love about the Christian community is that we can learn from one another. And I've had an opportunity to sit with their whole leadership team, both to build into them and do some workshops and training for their staff, but also to learn, what are they doing? What differentiates them from other churches?

And so, First Orlando, first started Surveying with us back in 2018, and they had healthy scores. They were a Certified Best Christian Workplace. And they continued every single year to Survey with us. And in 2022, they had their first flourishing score, and they've been flourishing for the past three years. And we just did their 2025 debrief as well. And they just have a great leadership team with a unique gift mix, where each person's gifts and passions and experience are really valued. So, at their senior-leadership table, they've got their pastor, David Uth, and then they have Danny de Armas, who is their executive pastor. But then, they leverage the rest of their team in ministry leadership, not just in getting feedback, collaborating, and getting an understanding of stakeholder impact, but truly in a developmental lens of, how can we steward the gifts that God has given us, and then take it up a level, and then take it up level? So they don't just value excellence; they actually value quality. And that's what we talked about last time was they are a little resistant to actually setting goals. They don't like to set numbers to things. What they like to do is challenge their staff. What would it look like to be better? What would it look like if we exceeded our expectations? And then, they use that to talk about measurements, but in a very different way, in a winsome way that a lot of their staff just lean into, because it empowers them. What would it look like for you? What could it look like? But it also helps them on an individual basis to grow.

Now, I do have to let you know that for First Orlando, as well as the other ministry partners that are in this flourishing category, one of the things that we start to notice is staff start to say, “I wish there was more development opportunities. I wish they were more paths for growth. What would a career path be for me?” And when I asked them about this, I mean, they have an incredible development opportunity. They build into their leaders. They have pastor pathways. They have development opportunities for people at all different levels. But people were saying, “We still feel like we need more.” My learning from this is that when you have a flourishing organization, people want a reason to stay. They want to be able to picture themselves there five years from now, and they don't want to feel stagnant. So that's where we've seen some of the increases in scores over the last couple years is creating some more internal development, not just pathways, but ways that we talk about development so that people can see opportunities for them.

Al: I’ll say, Tara, that First Orlando and Danny de Armas has been on this podcast in the past and really was a great conversation. That's an example where they had actually tried a different survey that didn't have the research or the science behind the Best Christian Workplaces’ Employee Engagement Survey, and it was a disaster. He came to us saying, “This was bad. I think we need feedback. But can you help us?” Yeah, so, it's been a great relationship. And yeah, as you say, people are looking for reasons to stay in churches and organizations where they have such a great experience. And empowering people and providing more development opportunities, that's something for our listeners to all think about. Thanks. Yeah.

All right. Now we're going to talk about one of my other favorite organizations. Tell us about this one.

Tara: Yeah. So, we're going to talk about Calvary Christian Schools in Fort Lauderdale, or in the Southern Florida area. And the reason why I want to clarify that is years ago, back in 2015, we started partnering with Calvary Christian Schools and Dr. Jason Rachels. And since 2015, they have launched three additional school campuses that are still associated and under the umbrella of Calvary Christian Schools. So it's been fun to watch this progression and this growth because Calvary Christian Schools has been certified as a Best Christian Workplace and has had healthy scores all along. But their three schools that they launched were not healthy to begin with. We got to watch Dr. Jason Rachels and his team of leaders come alongside these newer schools and train them and guide them and then empower them. And we've seen each of these three schools now move from unhealthy scores into healthy scores into flourishing. So not just for one school now but for four schools.

So, one of the things that we've learned is that they really do believe not just in the power of education but what education and then discipleship looks like, and we saw that with their professionals. So not just with their faculty, but also their administrators and their coordinators. So it has been a really fun journey to watch them move all of these four churches along.

Al: Wow. Great learning, there, Tara. Education and discipleship. As organizations or Christian-led organizations that we serve, the importance of discipleship in the current role. Used to be that we could say—I've heard many say it; I don't know that I ever believed it—that we need to have people kind of prayed up when they come to work, and we don't need to worry about developing and discipling and so on. But yeah, here's a perfect example of how the spiritual leadership and discipleship is really important in creating cultures. Yeah.

And now, one of the groups that you've worked a lot with is the Kroc Centers across the United States and the Salvation Army territories. You've got one that you want to talk about with us today, so tell us a little bit about this one, Tara.

Tara: Yeah. I've had a partnership with the Salvation Army since 2015, started with some of their leadership development, and then it moved into being a consultant for the Kroc Centers. So, many people might not know that they have the larger Salvation Army, and then there's four territories; and within each of the four territories, they have these community and fitness-based centers. So they have both a gymnasium and indoor pool. They have classes. They have childcare. They have evening youth groups. Some have soccer fields. Some have theaters. But they also all have a church inside the building. So it's both a church and a community center, and I work with them to help them have flourishing workplaces.

So one of the Kroc Centers in the central territory is the Omaha Kroc Center. And ever since we Surveyed with them, they have been dedicated to building a healthy culture: 2019 was their first Survey, and they came just shy of being Certified. And again, with tenacity, they went after their culture, and their next three Surveys, they were in the healthy range and had Certified Best Christian Workplace.

So, I've been walking alongside them with their action planning. I was really pleased with the way that they wanted to take all of our recommendations as a best practice and move it forward. So after we did the Survey, they communicated all the results to the staff. I was introduced to their different directors of different departments. We went through each of their team reports. And then, we did action planning and, again, started thinking about, what would it look like six months from now if teamwork between departments had improved, and what would it look like, you know, six months from now if we felt that there was trust between staff and leaders? And just went around the department to all different levels of the staff to dream about what that workplace experience could look like.

So, they have made incredible inroads. And when I talked to their staff, I can tell they just have such a positive disposition. Ever since our first Survey, I've been working alongside the leaders, Captains Alex and Carolina Yanez, and they are pastors. And what is fantastic about them is they really view the leadership over their employees, their staff—which include lifeguards and fitness instructors and membership-service guests and facility cleaning crews—they pastor them just like they would pastor those who work within the church side. And I really believe that lens of discipleship, as we talked about with some of the other partners, has really made its way through the entire employee base. And so we ask a question, a custom question, on their Survey, and it says, “My spiritual growth is important to me.” And over 90% of their staff say that their personal spiritual growth is important to them. And the Salvation Army doesn't discriminate in the way that they hire, because they're a mission-based organization, so they have people at all different levels of their faith journey. And we are seeing their faith being increased just from being a part of the Kroc Center.

Al: Yeah. Wow. That’s fantastic. Thanks, Tara, very much.

This has been great to listen to just four of the examples that are on the list of organizations that you work with. I love the way you described, first of all, a healthy cadence is important to measure culture, and how at Harvest, they've had that healthy cadence over time. And how all of these, each four of these, they listen to their staff on a regular basis with intentional action planning and then developing the ways that they can improve the health of the culture, following the discover, build, and grow process. You've described that perfectly.

So, thanks so much for your contribution, thanks for serving these ministry partners, and thanks for sharing with our listeners some of the keys to how these four organizations have become Certified, even flourishing, Best Christian Workplaces.

Tara: You’re welcome, Al.

Al: Next, I'd like to introduce Doug Waldo. Doug's been with Best Christian Workplaces now in his fourth year and is the sector leader for K through 12 education. And it's been a great privilege that BCW now is working with 125 schools each year, and we're seeing a greater impact as a result of the work.

So, Doug, welcome, and tell us about the first school that you want to highlight for us.

Doug Waldo: Well, thank you, Al. And I will share, this is one of the hardest assignments you've ever given us, just to talk about a couple. It's been a very, very exciting time in this sector specifically, and to get to be just an observer and participant in the movement that's happening is an incredible privilege. So to narrow it down to just a few is, it was a heavy lift, but we'll give it a shot.

Al: All right. Thanks.

Doug: So, our first one is The Covenant School in Dallas. We've been working with The Covenant School now for a number of years, and it's an incredible story of a steady, diligent march towards flourishing. Over the last few years, incremental improvements, moving from healthy to flourishing, Surveying annually and seeing those improvements in score, and having had the chance to visit with them and talk now a number of times to hear how they tie this Engagement journey to their mission. And they say very boldly, “Our mission is everything.” And when they talk about what that mission specifically is, it's to glorify God by equipping students with the tools necessary to pursue a lifetime of learning so that they may discern reason and defend truth in service to our Lord Jesus Christ. What an amazing thing to be united in that mission.

And then, they talk about their core values and how their core values equip them to pursue that mission. And one of those core values is employing outstanding teachers and administrators who confess and demonstrate the saving work of Jesus Christ in their lives, a reverence for the classical tradition, and a lifetime love of learning.

Now, there are two key parts of that that really jump out at us because they tie beautifully into the FLOURISH Model. And the first one is that notice of employing outstanding teachers. And so, of course, we have the O of the FLOURISH Model being Outstanding Talent. And when you look at what The Covenant School has done in that regard, there are two specific items within that category where they are absolutely thriving, or flourishing, and that is recruiting and hiring the best possible employees and then retaining them. The first part is a little bit easier, although it's not easy, but in Christian education, we've certainly seen the other part being extremely challenging and only more so coming out of COVID, just the thought of, how do we retain these top-flight folks who have joined us? But The Covenant School is doing that.

And next, within that core value, you heard the term “lifelong love of learning.” And so, I went to our Uplifting Growth category and looked at, how do the employees experience that same investment in their own learning, their own growth, in terms of how their leaders are shepherding them? And what you see here is, again, more off-the-charts high scores, literally off the charts. As you well know, in our Engagement Survey we've got this little gauge, looks like a fuel gauge. And it goes to 4.5. Well, they've got scores in Uplifting Growth that far surpassed that. The needle is pegged, if you will. And those employees know that as they are there as lifelong learners investing in young learners, they are cared for, they are nurtured, they are invested in.

And then, there's one more implication of this that goes directly back to their mission. And that's one of the questions that we ask in the Healthy Communications category, H in FLOURISH: their employees are encouraged to pursue continuous improvement. And TCS is in the 94th percentile there. So there's this relentless pursuit of innovation and growth. And as they're doing all of these things, we're seeing the ROI, and we're seeing it specifically in the engagement indicators that we track. We're seeing the intention to remain increase. So regardless of other options, their employees are inclined to remain committed to the cause of the school. We're seeing a growing inclination to recommend the school to others as a good place to work. Well, that certainly helps with that recruiting highly capable people, when your existing highly capable people are inclined to recommend you. And finally, there's a growing passion for that mission, a desire to go above and beyond what is expected to help them succeed. And here's the really neat part. That's not just from the organization. When you had drilled down to the teams, without exception, every team within The Covenant School is experiencing healthy or flourishing outcomes. It's truly a success story, and it's one they've earned year after year of Surveying with us and making the action plans and executing on that in the meantime. That's a great place to start, isn't it?

Al: Fantastic. In fact, in an earlier conversation today, I was talking with somebody who said, “You know, I just really don't like it when people don't care.” And when you have a co-worker who just really doesn't care, how discouraging that is, but you're talking about, you know, people that are engaged, people who really care, and what a difference that makes. Yeah. Covenant School, Dallas. Yeah.

What’s next, Doug?

Doug: All right, we're going to stay in Texas. This one happens to be in the Sugarland, Texas—it's Houston area. This is Logos Preparatory Academy led by Tammy McIlvoy, head of school, there. I love talking about Logos Prep because this is one of our clear leaders in the sector. They are off the charts as well. Their overall score at 4.56 is the top score in the United States for Christian schools last year. And what I love most about the story behind that is that they had the expectation to be flourishing built into their DNA. Flourishing isn't a goal for them or a hoped-for condition. It is an expectation. And they believe that that expectation is in part in service to their King. And so they accept nothing less than that.

And you can see this also in their strategic plan. So in Logos Prep's five-year strategic plan, which, by the way, they call—you'll love this—our “flourish-in-faith strategic plan.” How cool is that? So we've got this notion of flourishing just built into the overall strategic plan. And as they developed that plan, they’ve got these three principles that are guiding the plan. And one of those three principles is our talent, and they say this, “We are committed to employing highly engaged Christian educators who love the Lord, have a heart for students, who possess expertise in the subject, and demonstrate the gift of teaching.” They know, and we know, that the success of Logos Prep, then, in meeting its mission depends in large part on the engagement of those people. So from the get-go, we're talking about engagement. And of course, the essential nature of flourishing is such that engagement is the primary indicator of that flourishing, and they've got that built into their strategic plan.

Now, as you look at talent specifically, and you look what they're doing there, we talked about retention at The Covenant School. Here, too, Logos Prep, off the charts on retention. Why would you want to leave a school that's flourishing in that way, and who has, as part of its very strategic imperative, that they would continue to flourish? And all of that, of course, contributes to one of the most important, if not the most-important, item that we ask on the Survey, in terms of correlating to engagement, is Logos Prep well managed? And we better believe they are—the 98th percentile—that there’s confidence and the competence, the skill, and the character of their leaders.

They also, like The Covenant School, their employees feel cared for, personally cared for. But here's where they really set themselves apart, and that's in our Fantastic Teams category, where we ask, Do you work effectively within your team? And they're at the 100th percentile. Now, that's impressive. But you get to the next question. That's question two. The next question, question three, is where we ask, is there generally good teamwork across departments? Well, there we very typically see a decline. And sometimes it's a pretty significant decline, where the school or the ministry partner of the organization is saying, “Yes, we work really effectively as a team, but we don't work very well team to team.” And it almost always screams silos. Well, when you look at Logos Prep, their score on “we work effectively as team,” 4.79, off the charts, as I said, 100 percentile. The very next question, team to team: 4.62—97th percentile. There are no silos there.

And as I probed further on, what is special about how they implement the Model, and what are they doing to make this such a unique place? You know, I ask things about, how do you get employees involved in decisions that affect them? How do you keep those silos from forming? How do you reward and recognize your employees? And Tammy was kind enough to share several things, but one of the points that she brought up regarding “involving employees in decisions that affect them”—and so many schools struggle with this—is she said, and I'll quote her, “Involving employees in decision-making means continually asking this question: does this, whatever they're talking about, does this align with our mission?” And that begins with hiring and works through every aspect of the organization. And of course, it assumes, then, that the leaders have the humility to ask that question, have the courage to ask it and receive whatever it is that they hear back from in response to that, and then have the discipline to act on what they hear. Well, when you look at the topic of rewards and recognition, again, they're leading the pack. They're in the 94th percentile. I asked Tammy, “What do you do, then, to reward these employees?” That's such a struggle for schools. One of the ways that Tammy shared that they do that reward and recognition so effectively is something they call ICNU statements. And it's simply an affirmation tool. They use it for employees and students alike to offer encouragement in passing conversations, in formal gatherings, informally and formally. It's a way to specifically call out behavior that demonstrates the core values that demonstrate what's right about Logos Prep, and it shows that people are valued. And she made this comment, “We never assume that our employees know how valued they are. We make it known.” There's intentionality in that.

Al: Doug, you just mentioned the magic word intentionality. That's really the key in all of this, isn't it? So if we're intentional about these things, and, you know, if we let culture just be an unintentional byproduct, it'll run off the rails. Yeah.

So, but yeah, let's go on to the next one.

Doug: Yeah. I believe I read in a great book somewhere that cultures don't drift towards flourishing. So yeah, we'll go with that. I think that works.

All right, so here's one. We're going to leave Texas now, but we're not going too far away: Louisiana. This is Life Christian Academy. Life Christian is led by Stefanee Tolbert. Stefanee wrote a great book called Shatter the Box. It was all about Christian education and a new look at Christian education. She is a big part of the movement that we're so excited to be talking about here.

Now, what's interesting about LCA is they're also off the charts at 4.55 in the 97th percentile. So these are just amazing organizations. They've got about 55 employees. They are growing like crazy. They’ve got a big, beautiful campus they're building now, with the emphasis on continuing to leverage what made them who they are to begin with. They're not walking away from their original identity. So, they've got laser-focused, tremendous clarity—I would even say uncommon clarity—on their mission. And their mission statement is simply: providing academic excellence while developing Christ-like character. And when I hear Stefanee talk, and I've heard her talk several times about the school and as she shared with other schools and invested in them, you'll hear her mention those elements of the mission over and over and over. They might be slightly different wording or phrasing, but there is absolute clarity and certainty about how what they're doing aligns with that mission and demonstrates it.

And as a result of that clarity, I believe we can see in there was something that we look at in the FLOURISH Model, the S of FLOURISH, Sustainable Strategy. I believe you can see it right here. There's a question that we ask that says, there's clear consensus on the goals. Well, with that kind of clarity, with that type of intentionality, we would expect to be very strong in clarity on goals. But LCA is at the 100th percentile. No one does it better. And we can learn a lot from that clarity, the simplicity of that, and the relentless pursuit of it, to not be distracted by anything else.

I had an opportunity to talk with some of Stefanee’s colleagues a few weeks ago, and we were talking about the sobering dichotomy that is in leadership, but often and especially in Christian schools. And on one hand, we acknowledge that because God is perfectly intentional, going back to that word, and sovereign, He's placed us in our respective leadership roles with a sense of purpose and with an equipping so that we can do this thing that He's called us to do. At the same time, we must recognize that in our own strength, we can't do it. You know, we're not up to it. We're in over our heads from the beginning. So, our humble acceptance of that fact brings us to Christ, and it gives us the strength to know that it is His strength.

There's so much more that we could share about LCA, but I've got one more I want to touch on, and that's Wheaton Academy. We've been working with Wheaton now for a number of years, way back when, and then again more recently. The last three years, they, too, have made a steady march to flourishing. I’ve had an incredible blessing to visit with their leaders a number times of the past several months, and what you hear from them is also a clarity and intentionality and an unapologetic focus on the mission to which they believe God has called them, and that is to nurture growth in students through relationships, excellence, and service to the glory of God. You can see that focus onto the glory of God when you first pull onto their campus, when you walk into their buildings, Soli Deo Gloria, big, bright, and beautiful on display, but you could also see it in their Survey results.

As you drill down into the various aspects of the FLOURISH Model, you can see that focus on relationships, excellence, and service. You can see it in the Uplifting Growth category, where they are at the very top end of the curve on the progress conversations, their regular investment in their employees, to nurture them, to grow them. You can it in the Fantastic Teamwork, where we hear about the commitment to excellence, and they're working effectively as a team. You can see it in the Sustainable Strategy here, too, with absolute clarity on the goals of Wheaton Academy. They also have a commitment to innovation that is encouraged. And that combination with the fact that their leaders remain humble has allowed them to continually to march towards flourishing to where now when you look at their overall makeup of their employees, they have 76% of their employees fully engaged, all in, to the mission.

Now, of their leaders, Steve Bult, Kori Hockett, Steve Karlson, these are rock stars in the sector. But I have to quote Kori. Kori shared a statement a while back that rocked me back, and I was so thrilled that I could hear it. I captured it, and I've shared it with others. I'll share it here again. This is after we've acknowledged that because of this march to flourishing, they've recouped capacity, hundreds of thousands of dollars’ worth of capacity back to the organization. And when asked in part how they are doing this, she quoted the FLOURISH Model. She quoted the value of knowing and measuring the capacity of the culture and the health of the culture. And she made this comment, “It is leadership malpractice to fail to measure the cultural health of the organization.” And I just love that. Again, intentionality, purpose.

Al: So, Doug, these are great stories, Covenant School, Logos Prep, Life Christian Academy, Wheaton Academy. And you've been doing some really excellent work around what the financial impact is of having an engaged employee versus one who is just neutral or not engaged. Share a little bit with us about that.

Doug: Yes. It's very exciting to see it in the data. We know it anecdotally. We hear the stories. But, you know, as a data guy like you, I want to see the numbers. And so one of the things that we have found is of these 100-plus schools, many of them, most of them, also provide data to us regarding their ministry reach: the number of students they serve with the employees they have. And what we have found was when you move that needle that I talked about on a little gauge, for example, from 4.0 to 4.01, just a one basis-point move, there is a direct financial implication to the school, and it looks something like this. The average school we serve has just about 100 employees, so it makes it really easy. A one basis-point move, such as I just described, generally means that we've got one employee who is now engaged who wasn't previously engaged. Maybe they're newly engaged, maybe they've re-engaged from prior experience, but they're now engaged. And with that new employee being engaged, we add capacity to the school that looks to be around $19,800. And what that simply looks like is the employee being more energetic, more enthusiastic, more committed, more passionate. They're absent less. They have higher capacity. They are invested in more, and they provide an ROI back to the investment. They stay, so there's less retraining and rehiring. All those costs roll up to just under $20,000. That's a pretty significant impact for moving that needle one basis point. And yet we all know how challenging it can be to get that sort of move. So, it can be challenging, but it's made a lot easier when you have the metrics and can see exactly where to take action. And that's what, thankfully, our Survey can do for these folks.

Al: Outstanding, Doug. Yeah, $19,800 for one employee to move from neutral to engaged. And we just see that over and over and over again how it impacts the outcome of the school. And as you're saying, these are dollars to reinvest in their people, in the schools so that they can grow and flourish. No question.

Thanks, Doug. This has really been revealing. I appreciate the great work you're doing with K-12 schools and more across the nation, around the world. Thanks.

Doug: Absolutely. It is an honor. If I could, I'll close with one thing. I have to share this as well. When I went back to Tammy McIlvoy and I asked her, “Is there one thing that you would share with us,” knowing that I was going to share with you, “the secret sauce that's behind how you use the FLOURISH Model and encouragement to the colleagues that might be hearing this,” and she said this, such a powerful statement. She said, “As leaders, we embrace the responsibility to breathe in chaos, absorb negativity, and breathe out peace. And we never truly arrive in terms of a flourishing culture. The greatest danger to our mission is becoming complacent and failing to nurture that flourishing cultural year after year.” I just love that, to breathe in chaos, absorb negativity, breathe out peace. That's why they're in the upper 90th percentile on perceptions of manage and trust between leaders and employees. That's what that looks like.

Al: There's a lot of spiritual leadership that goes into that. Otherwise, we wouldn't be able to breathe in chaos and absorb negativity. What a great quote. Thanks, Doug, so much.

Doug: Absolutely. Thank you.

Al: And I look forward now to talking with Cary Humphries, a consulting director with the Best Christian Workplaces. Cary's in his eleventh year with Best Christian Workplaces and serving some of our largest ministry partners. And also, he's the leader of our Christian-led business sector, working with a number of for-profit companies across the country.

So, Cary, you've got a couple of lists of organizations as part of the Certified Best Christian Workplaces in 2024, and one of those is those organizations are a number organizations that have really experienced improvement. So, what are some of those organizations that we can reflect on?

Cary Humphries: Yeah, thank you, Al. It's great to be with you and always fun to talk about what people have accomplished in pursuing healthy workplace culture.

Occupational ministry and marketplace settings, all sacred work. But the first one that comes to mind is Miracle Life Family Church in Zambia. And, you know, Walker and Haley Schurz have just done amazing work there over decades and came to BCW nine years ago, asking, “Let's go on a journey of creating a healthier workplace culture in our church,” and the Rhema Bible Institute there. And they moved from not very healthy at all to solidly healthy. And they just pay attention every year, super thoughtful, through challenge and difficulty, even some personal hardship, and they've been faithful to pay attention to the data. They have a strong board, they have a strong and faithful team, they have a great HR lead, and they've just really displayed courage and commitment to workplace culture.

Then, on the opposite side of the world, in my hometown of Wichita, Kansas, Pathway Church has Surveyed with us years ago, took a several-year break, and then came back five, six years ago, and have gone from almost healthy to consistently flourishing. And they're thoughtful. Todd Carter, their senior pastor, and the entire team is committed. Again, they have great administrative support, and they've walked the process faithfully. Tiffany Blaske has been a champion of this for them, and just really an impressive set in the progress. We'll talk a little more in a minute about a couple of colleges and universities that have seen significant progress.

One other significant-progress organization is our lead sales client, and we chuckle about that, but the Mentoring Alliance in Tyler, Texas, has been such a gift to BCW, both being able to partner with them and help them walk from not very healthy to solidly healthy, even flourishing, sustaining that. They also have a great team that has really sort of guided that process and lived it and stayed committed to it. Kevin East, the leader there, has gone through a very—it's been very open and public about a battle with cancer. And yet during that season, the whole time, committed to health, committed to building a God-honoring, healthful workplace culture. And so impressed by the team that he's assembled and what they've accomplished.

Al: Yeah. I look back at Miracle Life, for example. I will mention to our listeners that if you search Miracle Life Family Church in Zambia, we have a podcast with one of their board members, yeah, and also, Kevin East at Mentoring Alliance, not long ago. So you can get more into the details of what makes them and all of these are very healthy to flourishing organizations, yeah.

Cary: Yeah. I think there's probably 10 ministry partners of BCW that would trace their Surveying with us back to Kevin East at the Mentoring Alliance. You know, in all manners of board members who run businesses to pastors, he is a connector of people. I'm sure his StrengthsFinder has the word connector in it somewhere.

Al: Well, why don’t you mention those two universities? Maybe we’ll come back to him.

Cary: Yeah. But super encouraging to look at Northwestern College in Iowa, in Orange City, Iowa, and LeTourneau in Longview, Texas. Both of them led by great leaders, Greg Christy at Northwest College, Steve Mason at LeTourneau, came into organizations that needed cultural help and support. And courageously, not only did they, in LeTourneau’s case, continue to Survey, because LeTourneau had Surveyed when Steve was there as the provost, but continued to Survey consistently, and at Northwestern College, Greg brought this to the college and then continued. And there were moments when it would have been easier to say, ”Let's take a break and have a couple years to make progress and not hold ourselves to such an annual standard,” both of them, for the last eight to 10 years, have been every year continuing to draw data, pay attention to it. Both of them have used us to come in and do either retreats with leaders or discovery groups or team snapshot debriefs. We don't always do follow-up consulting with organizations. Many feel like the results of the Survey and the reports are enough for them to take action on. But in both of these cases, as they grew and even as they've desired to stay healthy, they have engaged us for targeted additional work. And I'm looking at their—on the screen—at both of their reports. And one of the things we do is use something called a Relative Weights Analysis to show where they are positioned in their most-important drivers of engagement. And the top five of our eight drivers of engagement for both of them are a tight cluster. Looks like someone's holding a cluster of balloons in their hand. They're just boom. And they're giving attention to what matters most and doing it every year.

Al: And that's one of the beauties of the Engagement Survey is this Relative Weights Analysis, where we are able to identify how important each of the eight drivers are of employee engagement in Christian workplaces. And yeah, I've yet to see anybody else that has anything like that. And we get such good feedback from leaders, saying, “It really helps to identify priority areas for us.” Yeah. Super.

How about some of these organizations that have high levels of engagement and how they sustained it, you know, over, in the first case, like, 20 years in a row. Yeah.

Cary: Yeah. Crazy.

Al: Yeah. Tell us about that. Yeah.

Cary: Yeah. So, one of the first things, first organizations that I interacted with joining BCW was a ministry I'd never heard of before, Apartment Life. What a novel and creative ministry to people living in apartment settings, you know, around the country. And Apartment life has a solid team, central team, both headquarters and dispersed, but then hundreds of care-team members living in apartments around the country, serving the people dwelling there in the apartment, and serving the owner of the complex, who desires for people to feel more connected and retain their place of living there in the apartment. And Apartment Life has Surveyed from your very beginning, I think now 22, 23 years in a row, never missing. And it's like clockwork. And they have been solidly healthy to flourishing every year that whole time. And they pay attention. Pete Kelly and KC Jones, they're two executive leaders. It's just an amazing team of people, very gifted and talented people. I love that one of their values is to be intentionally playful. And so they have a lot of fun and yet they are serious about the Gospel, serious about organizational effectiveness. They pay attention to their strengths and celebrate them. They work on their areas of opportunity.

I remember years ago when their score was literally off our charts, off the top end of our dashboard dial. And Kelly Jones, their chief operating officer said, you know, “Everybody has a bottom 10. Our bottom 10 are still our bottom 10, and we're going after them.” Just a real commitment to improvement and excellence and care for people.

Al: Twenty-three years, Cary, I want to say. They started Surveying in the fall of 2003. Every year in 23 years, yeah.

Cary: The other ones that jump out, interestingly, a couple of camps: Cho-Yeh Camps in Texas; and Eagle Lake Camps, part of The Navigators, up north of Colorado Springs or up the mountain from Colorado Springs, both of them consistently healthy year after year. Committed leaders pay attention to their data, pay attention to their people, and it's exciting to see what's happening there with Garret at Cho-Yeh; and Jenny and the team and Mark Heffentrager, who has been involved at Eagle Lake and is now leading the business ministries of The Navigators, including Eagle Lake. Just exciting to see that consistency and progress.

A business that we have a lot of fun with, and he would be, you know, maybe I should safely say he's tied for first in our sales organization with Kevin East, but Troy at ACR Supply Company has been a gift to us. And just this week, I got a text from him saying, “You're going to be hearing from so-and-so.” He was committed to culture when he came to us. I would say culture’s probably Troy's favorite word, Troy Meacham. And he trains every employee that joins the organization in Crucial Conversations. And he leads culture from the CEO seat. He has transitioned to the presidency of the organization. But they're a HVAC supply company with a number of locations and just great committed people in the Raleigh-Durham area. And they are leaders not only in their industry but leaders in commerce and their community, and they care deeply about what they do. Healthy when they arrived on our porch and healthy every year since.

And then Compass, a family-services organization in Nebraska, is not just healthy but consistently outstandingly healthy. What a gift their leadership team has been. We've had the privilege of running into them at family-service conferences. They're a delightful team. They care deeply about their people. Every time we get together with Ryan and Kelley and their team, it's an impressive opportunity to hear what they're up to and see their commitment.

Al: And all of these organizations, they care about their people. They care about the culture they're creating. And what impresses me, as I think about these, is that bleeds over so that the people that are staff care about their customers, and they care about their community. I think about ACR Supply, their involvement in the community. And that's, again, just one example of the many Christian-led businesses that we serve. And also, as you say, Apartment Life, Compass, the camps, just really impacting not only their staff, but the people they serve. I think of the kids going to these camps each summer and the impact that has not only on the summer leaders but all of the guests that come to these camps and impact them for good, for the Gospel.

Cary: And it’s amazing. I mean, I mentioned Compass. I mentioned Ryan and Kelley, but Alisa, also on their leadership team and leads in the area of foster care. I mean, these are people working in challenging fields. So organizations might say, “Oh, well, that healthy culture is something for the easy, the easy fields.” It's, these are organizations doing difficult, challenging work and doing a great job of it. Really committed.

Al: So, Cary, are there any takeaways as you think about Miracle Life, Pathway, Northwest College, LeTourneau, the Mentoring Alliance, you know, these others that you mentioned? Any takeaways you want to leave with us and our listeners that they might be able to implement?

Cary: Thanks, Al. The biggest takeaway is there's no substitute for leadership. You know, as you go down this list, you see people who are committed. I mentioned Todd at Pathway, but Rodney at Pathway as well. You think of Greg and Steve and Kevin. You know, just down the list. Leaders who know that culture comes before strategy; who know that if you meet the conditions for growth, you will see growth; and culture and health is a condition of growth; and who invest and pay attention are willing to—they're humble leaders, willing to receive feedback about their own leadership; willing to lead first from the place of, what can I learn this year and how can I lead in being a learner? So that's the biggest thing, Al, leadership, and then information. As you told us for years, feedback is the breakfast of champions, and data is your friend. So these leaders have just modeled that.

Al: Well, Cary Humphries, thanks so much, and it's really been a pleasure to chat with you.

Cary: Good to be with you, Al.

Al: Thanks so much for listening to my conversation with Tara, Doug, and Cary. I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did.

You can find ways to connect with them and links to everything we discussed in the show notes and transcript at workplaces.org/podcast.

And if you have any suggestions for me about our podcast or have any questions on flourishing workplace cultures, please email me, al@workplaces.org.

As you reflect on what you've heard today, I encourage you to take the next steps in cultivating a flourishing workplace culture. Whether you're just starting or have been on this journey for a while, begin by discovering the current health of your culture, and then, build on what's working, and grow through intentional action. We call it our discover, build, and grow process. Transformation doesn't happen by accident. It starts with a commitment to listen, learn, and lead with purpose. To explore how we can walk with you on that journey, visit workplaces.org, and let's move from inspiration to impact together.

And next week, how do Christian leaders cultivate unity across differences in today's divided world? Well, next week I sit down with David Bailey, the founder and executive director of Arrabon, to explore how leaders can build reconciling communities marked by grace, truth, and trust. You'll hear practical wisdom by navigating cultural tensions, fostering biblical unity, and leading organizations that reflect the reconciling heart of the Gospel. Don't miss this powerful conversation. And tune in next week to learn how unity isn't just possible, it's essential.

Outro: The Flourishing Culture Leadership Podcast is sponsored by Best Christian Workplaces. If you need support building a flourishing workplace culture, please visit workplaces.org for more information.

We'll see you again next week for more valuable content to help you develop strong leaders and build a flourishing workplace culture.