Transcript: Honoring God in Your 9-to-5: Integrating Faith and Work // Al Erisman, Theology of Work Project

Flourishing Culture Leadership Podcast

“Honoring God in Your 9-to-5: Integrating Faith and Work”

October 9, 2023

Al Erisman

Intro: How do you integrate your faith and work, especially if you are leading in a marketplace context? Well, today on episode number 358 of the Flourishing Culture Leadership Podcast, we'll learn from someone who for many years was a senior leader in research and development, science and technology for the Boeing Company. And together, we'll consider how to integrate our work and faith. And so whatever we do, we can find purposeful lives that honor God and point people towards Jesus.

Welcome: Welcome to the Flourishing Culture Leadership Podcast, your home for open, honest, and insightful conversations to help develop your leadership, your team, and build a flourishing workplace culture.

Al Lopus: Hello, I'm Al Lopus, the co-founder of the Best Christian Workplaces and author of the book Road to Flourishing: Eight Keys to Boost Employee Engagement and Well-Being. And I'm passionate about helping Christian leaders like you create engaged, flourishing workplaces.

Today I’m delighted to welcome Dr. Al Erisman to the Flourishing Culture Leadership Podcast. Al is currently the board chair of the Theology of Work Project, which supplies a biblical perspective on the most-significant topics in today's workplaces.

Throughout our conversation, you'll hear Al and I talk about the Theology of Work and the question, does the Bible address work? Also, how Christian leadership and Max De Pree’s great definition of leadership is included. We talk about the ServiceMaster story and what Christian leaders can learn from it; also, very interesting is ServiceMaster’s four objectives and how they guided the company for over 70 years. Then, we'll have a discussion on business ethics and how there seems to be a link between corruption and poverty; and then, Al’s five habits for business leaders to stay faithful and well.

I think you're going to love this interview with Al Erisman. But before we dive in, this episode is brought to you by the Best Christian Workplaces Employee Engagement Survey. You can sign up today to discover the health of your organization's culture. This fall would be a wonderful time to listen to your employees, with our easy-to-administer online Engagement Survey by going to workplaces.org. Being a certified best Christian workplace improves your ability to attract more talented employees and keep them longer.

And by BCW’s new leadership and group coaching. We help you transform your leadership effectiveness with our stakeholder-based coaching process. Learn more by going to workplaces.org/coaching. Check it out today.

Well, hello to our new listeners. And thanks for joining us as we honor your investment of time by creating valuable episodes like this one.

And now let me tell you a little more about Al Erisman. He had a distinguished career at Boeing, using his Ph.D. in applied mathematics to overseeing research and development and a team of scientists, mathematicians, statisticians, and engineers. And then, he served on the business faculty at Seattle Pacific University, teaching and working with the Center for Faithful Business. He's currently chair of the Theology of Work Project and a founding board member of Kairos, a group of Christians in business in the Seattle area. He's had speaking and research engagements in six different continents. Al has authored and edited several books, including The ServiceMaster Story; also, The Purpose of Business; and The Accidental Executive, which focuses on the life of Joseph. During and after his career at Boeing, he authored many technical papers, books, and served on the science and technology advisory boards of many organizations.

So, here's my conversation with Dr. Al Erisman.

Hi, Al. It’s great to have you on the podcast.

Al Erisman: Oh, thank you, Al. Nice to be here.

Al L.: Yeah. It's really been a pleasure having known you now for several years.

But you know, one thing for sure, you have a rich background and experience, and I think it’s going to be hard to fit it all into one podcast. So let's start with one section of your life—we'll cover the others—but let's start with your vision for Theology of Work Project. Why do you think it's so important for Christians to live integrated lives, where their work is not separate from their faith? And so many of us in the marketplace sometimes don't integrate. How does that integrate? So help us with the Theology of Work Project. How does it help people in this area of integration?

Al E.: So one of the questions that was asked some years ago by a man named Haddon Robinson, the former president of Denver Seminary; and Gordon Conwell; and Tom Phillips, who is the chairman of Raytheon, probably best known because he led Chuck Colson to Christ; but the two of them got talking about this faith-in-work area, and they said there's a lot of activity, but does the Bible really speak into this care about daily work? And it raised the question of, could we write a Bible commentary on what every book of the Bible has to say about daily work? It seemed pretty clear that this could be done for Genesis and Matthew and Colossians. There's some places that it's obvious. But as we began exploring this over a period of about eight years, we began to realize that every book of the Bible actually speaks into this because we are called to be whole-life disciples, followers of Jesus. And the danger is if you don't think about your work, then you're ignoring the part of your life where you spend most of your time.

So, we began this project in 2007, and we set a goal for ourselves: we create and disseminate high-quality, biblically based, accessible materials on work so that all Christians can be equipped and committed for work as God intends. There were about 17 people that were involved in a project that I agreed to participate in and been privileged to participate in starting in 2007. We would take a book of the Bible, we would get someone to draft a commentary from that scripture, then we would tear it apart from the angle of theological business application; other workplace applications, like teaching and medicine and janitorial work; any angle; and try to bring something together.

This was completed in 2014. And, you know, we put it out there tentatively on the web, saying people could use it without charge, have access to it. And in 2014, there were about a half a million that started using this material. We thought that was pretty great. We began to translate it. We have it in two versions of Chinese and one of Korean and Spanish, and we're working on Portuguese. And last year there were more than 15 million engagements with the material, from people all over the world, a large percentage of them under 30 years of age.

People seemed to be asking the question, if I'm a Christian, what does it mean in this situation? Difficult boss? Vocation? Is there a purpose and meaning in the work I do? And the Bible has something to say to all of this.

So, it's been a real joy to be a part of this. Will Messenger is the person who's the executive director and leads this, and I've been on the board since the beginning, and chairman now. And it's just a wonderful experience to explore what it means that God cares about every corner of our lives.

Al L.: And where can we find that? I went to the website and saw the Bible commentary. It's like, wow, that's a great resource for our listeners.

Al E.: So theologyofwork.org is the location where it is, and you click on Bible Commentary. There's other things, too—Bible studies and devotionals and some other things—but the Bible commentary’s kind of the core of what we do.

I should say this about it. We made a decision early on that we wanted this to be a free resource that would be reusable. So we have what is called a Creative Commons license. If you want to pick up pieces of it and use it in your own writing, you don't ask permission; you just do it. And it's really been exciting to see that people have come from all over the world.

Al L.: Yeah. Wow. Yeah, 15 million engagement just recently. That's theologyofwork.org. Yeah, right.

Well, Al, let's go a little further in our conversation. You know, as I mentioned in the introduction, you've got a Ph.D. in applied mathematics, and you've led a team of scientists, mathematicians, statisticians, and engineers at Boeing. And Boeing’s known for having one or two engineers, that's for sure. So, you know, sometimes Christians have this awkward relationship with science. And in your whole-life integration, you're both a scientist and a Christian. So reflect with us for a minute on this connection in your career. So what thoughts would you share about those in scientific fields and how to integrate faith and work from that perspective?

Al E.: Yeah. So I think there's two intersections that affect many of us, and it certainly included me. One of them is just our daily work itself. Whether I'm going to school, whether I'm working at a job, doing science or doing medicine, whatever it is, is that a part of my Christian life? And seeing life do elistically means that I may be pious, I may be worshiping God on Sundays, I may have a quiet time, but how does that affect the way I do everyday life? So that's kind of one step.

Another step is science itself, which seeks to find deep answers to questions that people have. And we know as believers that God is the Creator. So how do I resolve all of those things? Early on in my own life, I've been a Christian for as long as I know. It's one of those things where I don't have much of a testimony because I've always known that I'm a follower of Jesus, and yet that was my definition of my Christian life. But then I went to work, and then I did mathematics, and those were kind of separate areas. The Christian group I grew up in tended to be more separatist, so science was kind of suspect, but mathematics people thought was neutral and actually isn't very neutral at all. And I began exploring that, but I didn't really see that that had anything to do with my faith.

But I remember working on some algorithms, and this was in the early days of computing, and I had a portable terminal that was hooked up to the telephone line, sitting in my kitchen, and I was working on some algorithms after the kids had gone to bed. And all of a sudden, I got a message, and it said the system is shutting down in 15 minutes. And I thought, “Wow. I'm in the middle of my work. What's going on here?” And I looked at the clock, and it was quarter to three, and I was totally lost in my work. And I hadn’t fully connected that with my faith, as God has given me this assignment, and carrying this out is for His purposes and for His glory, and to be able to begin to see that and get a glimpse of it.

You know, Francis Schaeffer was an influence in my life that opened that window to seeing Christ is Lord of all. Al Greene became a mentor of mine, and he was the founder of Bellevue Christian. And he opened up these questions for me, and all of this kind of opened up a view that Jesus Christ is really Lord of all.

I think one of the conflicts with science comes because we think we have an explanation that this is a message from God and no human understanding is involved. Take the rainbow. You know, the rainbow was pictured for us at the time of the Genesis flood, and we say, “Okay. That must be from God.” Well, science has taught us that that is the refraction of light through water. And we began to say, “Well, okay. Which is it?” And the answer is yes, it's both, because God created the world in such a way to display His glory. So the idea of exploring these things is a part of this great mystery.

You know, in mathematics, we can get into a question like, what is the largest number? And, you know, no matter what number you name, I can add one to it, and it's bigger. And so we don't get it that way. And then someone who's seen Toy Story will say, “Well, it's infinity. Infinity and beyond.” But the answer is that infinity is not like any other number, because I can add infinity to infinity and still have infinity. I can add 50 to infinity; I can multiply it by 100; it’s still infinity. And it just gives me a little glimpse of God, because God is—we are made in His image, and yet we are not like Him in any of the senses that He is so much greater than we are. And on and on it goes. In mathematics, there are many, many places where I can see this.

And I love the book by Ruth Bancewicz. She wrote a book called God in the Lab, and she made this comment that it's true that I want to bring my faith into the work I do in science, but actually, the science is a window into an understanding of God. And I tend to see this as well in mathematics. And so being able to see a world that is so much bigger is a wonderful experience.

And then, when I was at Boeing, Wayne Alderson, I heard about him on the radio, I bought the book on his life, I got to know him as a friend, and he opened up the idea that God has called me to full-time Christian service at the Boeing company. And it was a new concept for me, and it opened up both the responsibility that I have as a follower of Jesus in the way I do that work, but also to recognize that we live in a broken world, and we ourselves are broken. And so we're not going to get perfection. And Steve Garber uses the language of the proximate: we seek to live proximately in a way that would honor God. So with my science and with my daily work, I get glimpses of who God is. I feel like this is a part of my assignment, and I am excited to do that in service to God.

And it doesn’t mean that everything is perfect. I am always careful to say that because the world’s broken, and we are broken. But it gives me a purpose and a change in attitude and direction that has been the joy of my life.

So long answer to your question, but I hope that is helpful.

Al L.: Yeah. That's interesting. You described the working; all of a sudden, you look up, it's three o’clock. You know, hours have gone by, and you were in flow.

Al E.: In flow.

Al L.: Yeah. You were in flow. And I think that's a reflection in a sense or an experience of how, you know, we're doing God's will when we're in flow, and we find that we're doing what He really intended us to do all along. Yeah. So that's great. Yeah.

So, you know, Al, you've interacted with leaders all over the place over your career, both in the marketplace as well as in Christian organizations. I love—we're going to talk a little bit about your book on ServiceMaster, and that's a really outstanding book, for sure, and I’d encourage our listeners to pick this up. But as you reflect on leadership, you know, are there some differences that you see between leaders who are following Jesus and those that might have other motivations, particularly following Jesus in the marketplace? What are differences that you've seen?

Al E.: Well, I wish I could say that in my observation that Christian leaders are different from non-Christian leaders, and it just follows that line. What I found is that Christians who I believe have really seen that God is at work in their lives, in their daily lives, as a part of who they are before God, there’s a real difference there that I’ve seen. But I've also met a number of Christian leaders for whom this is just a job that they do to earn money so that they can do other things. And their leadership, unfortunately, then, doesn't reflect this.

On the other hand, I've seen some non-Christian leaders who I believe demonstrate some of the characteristics that I think are fundamentally a part of the way God would have us lead. And I attribute that to the fact that each person is made in the image of God and has some of that reflection. And one of the big influential books for me was by Max De Pree. He was a Christian former chairman at Herman Miller Furniture, and he wrote a number of books, and one of them was Leadership Is an Art. And in that book, he makes this interesting comment. He said, “The first responsibility of a leader is to define reality. We're not going to kid people when things are bad. We're going to be very clear. We're going to paint a picture of where we're trying to go, give people a sense of purpose.” And then, at the end, he says, “The role of a leader is to say thank you to the people doing the work, and in between, to be a servant.” And I think that really does capture for me something of what I think it is to be a Christian leader. And I believe that there are many other things, of course, about being a leader, about helping people develop, about caring about the individual, about engaging with people to draw them into the solution rather than treat them as tools. A human being, another human being is never a tool for getting the work done. They are a person made in the image of God. And how do we kind of help that person identify what is their strength and their gifts and their abilities, and help them carry out their work?

So I have seen Christians and non-Christians alike who I think do this well, and I have seen Christians and non-Christians alike who do this poorly. But I do believe the Scripture is filled with wonderful insight about being a leader. And as Christians, we can, in fact, tap into that resource and better understand what it is.

Al L.: Yeah. I love your comments about Max De Pree. I've used this frequently myself, role of the leader is to define reality. And you know, as we work to define the level of health in an organization's culture, you know, I feel like that's a big part of what we do with culture is to help a leader understand and define the reality of the health of their culture. But then I stop before—oh, in the end, you say thank you. That's great advice. And then, in the middle, be a servant. Absolutely. And servant leadership, you know, it’s a key to it.

Al E.: He also used to add the role of the leader is not to inflict pain, but to bear pain. And how do you actually stand in the way of bearing the pain that others might get?

Al L.: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And all examples of Jesus, for sure. Well—

Al E.: Yeah.

Al L.: And I mentioned, you know, the book The ServiceMaster Story that you've written, and now it’s been out for a couple of years. And one company, I know, you've done a lot of research on this ServiceMaster story. And again, the title of the book is The ServiceMaster Story: Navigating Tension between People and Profit. And recently, Bill Pollard, the former CEO, donated his papers to the Seattle Pacific University, where you've been the executive in residence and part of the Center of Faithful Business. You’ve, of course, written a whole book on this, but what are some of the key lessons on workplace culture that you learned from your study of ServiceMaster and Bill and his predecessors?

Al E.: Yeah. Let me say that Bill had been giving speeches and talks in various places, written pieces, all during his leadership with ServiceMaster. We have a collection, a work-in-faith collection, of books and papers at Seattle Pacific, probably one of the largest in the world. And I called him and asked him if he would donate those papers, and he finally agreed to do that. But he said, “I'd like to make sure that they get used.” And so he also provided some funding to allow people to come and explore these and write research papers on them. We just finished with a group of five scholars at SPU.

You know, one of the things that stands out for me that Bill often says is management leadership is an awesome responsibility. You know, there is a sense, sometimes people think about leadership in terms of the title or the privileges or the salary or the perks. But leadership is an awesome responsibility. He used to say, “You can lead and you can mislead. And how is it that you really take into account this awesome responsibility?”

Bill and I, I've known him for quite a number of years, and we were having a conversation about his papers. And one day he said to me, “You know, I think there needs to be a book on the history of the ServiceMaster company, and I think you ought to write it.” I said, “Bill, I can't do that. I'm not a historian. I don't have time. This would be a major project.” He said, “Well, I'll send you some things to read,” and he did. And as I read these things, I got more and more intrigued by the story because it goes back a long ways. And I told him later, “You’ve stolen real estate in my brain, and I will do this under the condition that you don't pay me, that you open up your network to me, and that I have the final say on the book,” and he agreed to that.

And it took about three years exploring not only what he did, but Marion Wade, the founder, a man with an eighth-grade education, who wanted to be a professional baseball player, and who his father and left home early on in his life. He has a very interesting story. And he started this company, and Ken Hansen followed him, and then Ken Wessner, and then Bill Pollard, as leaders. And their stories together are stunning as they shape a company that really made a difference.

There was a man at Harvard, James Heskett, who was a professor in the business school. He's written a couple of books on culture. Very thoughtful man. I had an opportunity to talk with him. But he said, “ServiceMaster has cracked the code on the service industry by giving people a sense of purpose and meaning in their work, that has changed the very fundamentals of the profitability of a company.” And he said, “I attribute their great performance in the marketplace to this idea of getting purpose and meaning for their people.”

You know, a quick little story about Bill being hired. Ken Hansen and Ken Wessner—Ken Wessner was the CEO; Ken Hansen, the chairman. Bill had met them through some work he’d done at Wheaton. He was a lawyer by training. And they said, “We'd like you to consider coming to ServiceMaster, and we think you could be CEO someday.” And Bill told me that he got thinking about this, and he began to say, “I wonder what it will take to be CEO.” And so in the opening interview, he began asking questions of the two Kens—Ken Hansen and Ken Wessner—and after five minutes they stood up and said the interview’s over and showed him the door. He went home, assuming, I guess that was it. And Ken Hansen called him that night, and he said, “Do you want to know what happened in there? Let's have breakfast tomorrow morning.” And over breakfast, Ken Hansen said to him, “Do you want to come to serve the people, or do you want to come for a title? Because if you want to come for a title, we're not interested. But if you want to come to serve, we would love to have you.” And when he said, “I finally got my priorities straight,” and he reported for work, the first six weeks, he was given a green suit, and he was mopping floors in a hospital wing, learning what it is to live as one of the people that do the work. And he said it changed everything about his leadership.

And so, it's that kind of servant leadership that goes all the way to an understanding of the nature of the work, the life of the people. He said it wasn't so much that the work was hard, although it was. But he said a person that does that work is invisible. People walk past them as though they're a piece of furniture and not another human being. And he said you begin to feel that, and it shapes the way you do your leadership. And so those are the things that actually shaped him and gave him a way of thinking about leadership.

He used to say that leadership is a great moral responsibility. Business becomes a moral agency for shaping people's lives. He would say that it's about purpose and meaning. People are not the object of our work; they’re the subject of our work. They’re not in the cost equation, but they are the end result. It was very shaping.

But, you know, if you back up a little bit, Marion Wade started this company in 1929 with the idea that he needed a job. It was the Depression, and the company was serving closed, and he said, “I can sell this stuff on my own.” And he started creating this company, inventing things. He was a brilliant guy. And one day he had a chemical explosion that put him in the hospital. And he took that as his Damascus Road experience. And he said, “I have been a Christian for a long time. So the Lord wasn't trying to bring me to Christ at that point, but He was trying to say something to me, and I wanted to know what it was.” And he said, “What I concluded is that I could be a Christian at home, but my business was just business. And maybe God is calling me to reshape my business.”

And so I give him the credit of being the architect for how the company did what they did. Ken Hansen put a business structure around it. Ken Wessner brought processes in. Bill Pollard expanded the scope of this. They went from being a small company working out of a home to a company that went public with a market of about $1,000,000 a year in 1962 to being a $6 billion company in 40 countries. And it was all shaped by this foundation of serving God, giving people purpose and meaning, valuing the employee.

They had four objectives: to honor God in all we do, to help people develop, to pursue excellence, and to grow profitably. And they always would say the first two are the end goals. Those are the reason why we exist. The second two are the means goals. They allow us to help people develop by allowing us to grow and giving opportunity for people. But it’s those first two that are the end goals.

And Bill would often say to me, “When I would go to Harvard to talk about this case, or when I would go to Wall Street to talk with the analysts, I loved the opportunity of talking about our first objective because I wanted to introduce people to the person of God.” He said, “Just talking about who God is was an opportunity to have people confronted with the question of God.” And it made a real difference for the company.

Al L.: Yeah. Give us those four objectives, again, Al.

Al E.: Number one was to honor God in all we do. Number two was to help people develop. Number three was to pursue excellence. And number four was to grow profitably. And growing profitably was the means by which they could help people develop because it created opportunity. And to honor God in all we do, they would often be asked, “Well, what does that mean? Does that mean I'm going into a religious opportunity?” They said, “No. It actually means three things. It means that we have the very highest ethical standard, not what we can rationalize or what we can justify, but a standard before the living God. It also means that we acknowledge that every person is an image bearer of God and, hence, is valuable. And it also means that all work has dignity.” And so the idea that this work is important. They introduced people to the idea that if you're scrubbing floors in the hospital, you're not just cleaning the floor; you're helping the patient get well. And when people could get a glimpse of their purpose bigger than their task, they would get excited about what they did.

Bill told a story about being at their London operation, and after the business meetings, he was introduced to—he said, “I want to meet some of the people that are doing the work.” And so he was introduced to some of the janitors that were there. And this woman dropped her mop and came up, and she put her arms around him, and she said, “Thank you. You have changed my life. I used to be a janitor, scrubbing floors. And now I have a purpose. And it's important, and I love what I do.” And she said, “In fact, the hospital couldn't function without the work that we do.” She really got a hold of this idea that there is a purpose and meaning. It changed the company, and it changed their lives.

Al L.: Fascinating. And it's so much just a key. I love the, again, how do we honor God in everything we do? Highest ethical standards. Every person is in the image of God. And of course, that causes you to treat them with higher levels of dignity than you might otherwise. And that the work has dignity in itself. Yeah.

Al E.: Yeah. You know, one of the people was out to dinner with Ken Hansen, who was the second CEO and former chairman. And the waitress spilled a tray of food on the floor. Within an instant, Ken Hansen was on his hands and knees, helping her clean it up. And they said to the waitress afterwards, “You probably didn’t know this, but here is the chairman of the board of a Fortune 500 company, helping you clean your floor.” It was just instinctive for him and for them to be a leader.

James Heskett made this comment when he was doing the study of ServiceMaster and at a board meeting, and Bill had spilled some coffee on the floor, and he was down on his hands and knees, cleaning it up. And Jim said, “I don't know whether to be more amazed that the chairman is down cleaning the floor or that the rest of the board members don't even seem to notice.” This was a way of life for them, and it was life changing.

Al L.: Good examples for all of us of what servanthood looks like. Yeah.

I trust you’re enjoying our podcast today. We’ll be right back after an important word for leaders.

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Al L: Welcome back to my conversation with Dr. Al Erisman.

Well, let's talk about the next stage, because ServiceMaster, you know, certainly was a publicly traded company; multi-billion dollars of revenue, as you said; a Fortune 500 company; and known for their Christian witness because, you know, regularly they would talk about these four objectives were on the wall. They were in the annual reports. It was well known that they were kind of a faith oriented. That was a key part of the way they did their business. And they experienced, as you said, just tremendous growth over 70 years. Again, as they started in, you know, about 1929, 1930. And then, they really hit a peak in the late ’90s, plateaued for a short period of time, and then, you know, saw some decline and maybe even significant decline after that. So, you know, we've got many Christian business owners who listen to this podcast, and they're concerned about their legacy in the organizations they lead, and the legacy, you know, for Christ as they go from one generation to the next. So, okay. So, Al, what can we learn from this ServiceMaster story? Did they lose their focus? What happened to change from being this powerhouse business organization, known for their Christian witness, to maybe something less?

Al E.: So it's a difficult part of the story. In 1997, the person that succeeded Bill Pollard, Carlos Cantu, he was another Christian leader who had come in with the Terminix acquisition. He was leading the company, and he developed cancer. They had expected him to have a ten-year run, like the other CEOs had done, and he came in in ‘94. So 2004 was what they were thinking. But in ‘97, he developed cancer, and he ultimately had to step down. And I think they lost a bit of attention during this transition period because of his being in and out. He didn't finally leave until 1999. And Bill stepped back in for another 18 months as CEO the second time around.

In that time, there were other things that were happening as well. Many of our younger listeners may not know this so well, but the late ‘90s was an insane time in business. It was the dot-com era, when anything dot-com was considered great, and anything brick and mortar was considered suspect. And so they were caught in that as well. The whole market was caught in that. There was a recession that happened around 2000. So there's a lot of these factors that started pushing against the company, of any company, and not the least of which was the change in leadership. The board, I think, became concerned about their fiduciary responsibility and what we can do to kind of get things going again. And they determined that there was no one ready within ServiceMaster, and they decided to look outside. And they brought in someone who I think identified, at least in the interview process, as a Christian.

But it wasn't very long before, after he was hired, he made a remark to one of the newspaper reporters, “Make no mistake about it. Our first objective is to maximize profit for the shareholder.” And that's a very different orientation than what the company had had. They had always produced good results for the shareholder, but they did it because their primary objective was to honor God and help people develop.

And when it came out of a direct application, it led to a lot of things. They sold off a big chunk of the company that had matured and was not producing quite as much profit, even though they were the ones that had the longstanding, deep understanding of ServiceMaster. They began to go in other directions and bring other people in who did not do the work of the people. And they ended up having their first loss—I think it was around 2003 or 2004—after having been profitable for 30 straight years, growing in profit for 30 straight years. And that person that they brought in lasted about four years, five years, and was fired.

The company was taken private and then public again in 2017. But in that interim time, those four objectives were set aside, minimized, and the leadership was more about short term and making money.

Then, in 2020, they sold off the rest of the ServiceMaster brands, and the company was relabeled Terminix. And then in 2021, Terminix was sold to a European company. And so, there are still some franchises from original ServiceMaster that are around. And some of them, interestingly, have, because they're independently owned and operated, have held on to the old values. And so, I walked into one while I was doing the book, and there on the wall was four objectives: to honor God in all we do and help people develop, to pursue excellence, and grow profitably.

So there are signs of it in little corners, but it's no longer the consistency of what it was. And I think it happened for market things, for the death of Carlos, for the lack of someone being ready to step in. At that time, the company had gotten very large, and it's a painful part of the history of the company.

Al L.: Yeah. I was just talking with Mason Rutledge last night at an event, and we were talking about this, and he said there's a franchise in Everett, and those four—

Al E.: Right.

Al L.: —objectives are still on the wall, and, you know, a key part of the way they do business. Yeah. So, so yeah. But amazing story, isn't it?

Al E.: You know, Al, I would say one other thing. I found a number of executives of that company who are now doing other things, who are leading other companies and organizations according to these same principles. So in many ways, while the company itself is not there, the ideas are living on through the lives of others, and it's just fun to see. And so I think the company maybe became the vehicle for the training and development of people who could do this in other places. So I don't consider it over.

Al L.: No, no, no, no. Exactly.

Al E.: In fact, this part of the story was the discouraging part for Bill. And one day I told him, “I think I found the last chapter,” and it's stories of hope from people that had been there, who are carrying on these ideas in other places, and it really is the outcropping of what ServiceMaster did.

Al L: Yeah. That's a lesson in itself, right there, for us to think about. And again, as our listeners are thinking about their own organizations as they lead them, it may not look the way you might like it, but there'll still be benefits if you're doing it right. Yeah.

Well, another book that you've worked on is called The Purpose of Business. Now that's a big topic, and it fits the whole idea of what we've talked about so far, living an integrated life, and even, you know, as we talk about the ServiceMaster story—how every person's in the image of God, work has dignity, and we should operate with the highest ethical standards, and so on. So as Christians, you know, what's the purpose in the business world? What results are we aiming for in business? You know, how can we define success in the workplace from your perspective, Al?

Al E.: I think often, my former dean at SPU and friend Jeff Van Duzer raised this question one day in a business faculty meeting. He said, “If you're a doctor and someone said to you, ‘What is the purpose of what you do?’ You would say, ‘Well, I heal people.’ If you're a lawyer, ‘What's your purpose?’ ‘Well, I bring justice.’ If you're a business person, ‘What is your purpose?’ Do you say, ‘I make a lot of money?’ Is that really an adequate purpose?”

And I think, unfortunately, for many in business, they begin to think that the goal of business is just about making a lot of money. But I think the biblical approach and a way that I have found really helpful is to think about a deeper purpose of business. It's through business that we provide goods and services to people in a world where everyone is not self-sufficient. Business provides the goods and services that people need. Business provides an opportunity for meaningful work for many, many people. Business provides the capital to allow the funding of so many other things. So business has a purpose that is very deep and very important, like medicine, like law, education, and other things.

But too often, business gets reduced to something else. And I think the story in the book The Purpose of Business is to try to flesh that out and say, “How is it that business plays an important role in society and really does make a difference for others?” This was the product of a project I did with a friend who at the time was the dean of business at RPI, later at Fordham University, David Gautschi. And David and I built this friendship, and we had these gatherings of people in different parts of the world to come and talk about the purpose of business from their perspectives. And then, we tried to capture some of that in this book. The book is not a book written specifically for Christians, but I believe that there are some fundamental foundations there that are really important.

I wrote a piece in there on why Milton Friedman got it wrong. Milton Friedman is the one that has said the purpose of business is to make as much money as you can, subject to the constraints of the law and the ethical norms. And so many businesses have said, “Well, that's the truth.” But if you don't see the business as a higher calling than that, you're going to get dragged down into a way of thinking that is very different.

You know, my mathematics doesn't often play a role in the business work that I do, but there is something really interesting about mathematics that helps us on Milton Friedman's statement. You know, when you say the purpose of business is to make as much money as you can, subject to the constraints of the law, you're formulating something which mathematics calls a constrained-optimization problem. Maximize something, subject to constraints. Mathematicians know that the solution to that lies on the boundary of the constraints. And so I have said, “Milton Friedman is inviting people to operate on the boundary of the law.” And I can look at ethical behaviors and failures in business, and every one of them came from that foundation.

The other thing we know about that is we don't know for sure what we do today, how that will affect profitability in ten years. But I know pretty well what I do today and how it will affect profitability in ten weeks. So his strategy actually drives people with short-term thinking, which is destructive of business. And I stand all of this in contrast to what ServiceMaster did in trying to look at a bigger purpose, look at longer term, and keep the focus on acting in the right way and helping people develop. And so The Purpose of Business is all about exploring with an international community what it is to look at business in a very different way than just maximizing profit.

Al L.: Yeah. I remember that period of time where Milton Friedman got the ears of top executives all over the world. The purpose of business is to maximize shareholder value. You know, just over and over is what you'd hear. But yeah, it led a lot of companies in the wrong direction.

Well, speaking of the world and business, you've got one more thing that just really got my attention, and that is that you've been involved in ethics through teaching. And, also, you've been involved in the magazine ethix.org, and as a result of that, you've traveled to China, Southeast Asia, Mongolia, Ukraine, Central Africa, Republic, Brazil. I mean, you spoke about ethics and corruption, actually corruption, with government leaders in many of those countries. So how did that impact your perception of doing business, not only in the United States, but in these different cultures? Share a couple of your learnings with us, Al.

Al E.: Yeah. So, you know, I got involved in thinking about the ethical question while I was at Boeing, running the R&D lab at the company, because technology opens up new opportunities to do things where there are no laws. And so then you begin to ask this question, well, what is the right thing to do in an area where I can't say it's defined by law? How do I think about, on the one hand, not getting into trouble, which is what I call damage-control ethics, and on the other hand, doing the right thing, which will make a difference for others? And I call that mission-control ethics. And so you put the two together and you begin to think about ethics in a way that says, “How do I both avoid doing bad, and doing good?”

What I have found is that there are leaders that have thought really carefully about this. And so when we started Ethix magazine, I had an opportunity to interview business leaders in various parts of the world. And it's been—it was amazing. I would often pinch myself in realizing that I was sitting down with someone like the person who used to be the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, the person who was CEO and chairman of PepsiCo and large companies, and a steel company in China. It was amazing to explore with people how about doing right and what are the pushes for you in doing wrong?

But it also happens with government. And the issue of government corruption is a really interesting question. There’s a paper that shows a correlation between the more corrupt a country is, the poorer people are, and the lower the quality of life. And so you begin to have these conversations and ask questions, and it's an opportunity to share some insight. Usually, in sharing this, it's not as a Christian, per se, but in talking to them about things that are real and that are important, and it can certainly raise the question of God.

So, I was in Indonesia, got talking with a government leader, and he said, “You know, I've come to the realization that the reason we have corruption among the police is that we only pay them enough to feed their family for two weeks out of the month. Where do we expect them to get the rest of their funding?” So sometimes it's actually baked into the way a country operates.

I was invited to do some sharing with senior government officials in Mongolia. The group that made the arrangement asked me if I would do the talks, and I said, “Well, who's going to do them with me?” And they said, “Well, you can do them.” And I said, “Well, no, I don't do it that way.” So I contacted a good friend, Ed Moy, who has been in the government in the U.S. He was head of the U.S. Mint, worked for President Bush. And I just said, “Ed, I have an opportunity for you. We can go to Mongolia. We can talk about ethics and corruption with government leaders, with business leaders, with churches. You might get your fare reimbursed. You won't get paid. What do you think?” And he said, “I'm in.” And we had marvelous days of just bantering back and forth and sharing some of these principles, many of which were rooted deeply in our faith, and yet being able to talk with them about a purpose that's bigger than themselves. It's been a real privilege to do that.

Along the way, I got invited to actually speak to the business-school professors, graduate students, at the International Islamic University in Kuala Lumpur. And that's the only time where I actually pinched my arm to realize that I was really there. And I was sharing with them about a way to create a great organizational culture, starting with humility, accountability, power under control, excellence, compassion, integrity, collaboration, and courage. So I went through those eight things and talked to them about why humility was so important, why having your power under control is so important, why compassion was necessary. And at the end I said, “I need to tell you that this is not something I've invented. This is the Beatitudes of Jesus. Blessed are the poor in spirit—that’s humility. Blessed are those who mourn—that's accountability. Blessed are the meek—that's power under control. Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness—that's excellence,” justice, and so on.

And, you know, it's staggering to me just to have had the opportunities to do some of these things. And so I'm thankful for the opportunities. I tend to have a bias toward yes when someone says, “Would you consider this?” And it's taken me places I never expected to be.

So with Ethix magazine, I think I've interviewed 110 people in different capacities. And that’s E-T-H-I-X.org. And all the interviews are out on the website.

And these other things, nothing that was part of my master plan.

Al L.: That's often the way things work. Yeah.

Al E.: Yeah.

Al L.: And then, one last thing, Al, as we talk here. Personal habits and disciplines that have been foundational for your own spiritual growth as you’ve walked through life. You know, as you said, you kind of grew up in a Christian environment and have grown and, you know, over a lifetime. So how would you describe some of those habits and disciplines that have helped you grow in your faith?

Al E.: Yeah. I'm really thankful for an early upbringing that emphasized the scripture in my life and the idea of studying scripture, reading through the Bible, looking at it, seeing new things all the time. It's stunning to me that, you know, you've read through the Bible many, many times, and yet you read it again and you see something you never saw before. And it's because you're in a different place now, I suppose, and God is using that scripture to impress something else on you. The Scripture is really important.

Actually, putting my calendar in front of the Lord and saying, you know, “This is where I am, and You can do what You want with this,” is an important thing.

I think remaining curious is something else, constantly learning. This world that I'm in now is very different from the world we were in 20 years ago, with technology and ChatGPT and AI and large language models, and all of these things, which are fascinating.

And just trying to kind of keep asking the questions, what does it mean to live for Christ in 2023 with the assignment that we have been given? There's this verse in Hebrews chapter 12, verse two, which says, “Let us run the race marked out for us, looking unto Jesus.” And I think that race marked out for us is the assignment that He has for us. And it's not just a church. It is a church, but it's not just there. It's in our neighborhood, in our work, with our families, in all areas of life. So it's trying to kind of keep that attention.

And then, it's being in—I've got a group of guys that I meet with, and that's been really helpful to me and challenging me. I’ve had some mentors over the years that have really affected my life. But, you know, you never arrive. I'm always sobered by the stories in scripture of someone like Uzziah, in 2 Chronicles, I think it's 26, where he had been an inventor, a king, military leader, and it says he was greatly helped by God until he was strong. And when he was strong, his heart was lifted up to his own destruction, and he forgot the Lord his God. And it's a reminder to us that we don't live in fear, but we live in anticipation. And how do we kind of remain in this? I don't have the answer, Al. But I think this idea of being rooted, and also the cautions, too, being rooted and grounded in faith, and it's a reminder to us that there are some foundations from which we operate.

Al L.: Yeah. Well, I'm waiting for the next book, Al, Five Habits to Grow in Your Spiritual Life Over Time, you know, by Al Erisman. You know, scripture first; giving your calendar to God; remaining curious—just love that one; being involved in small groups or accountability groups; having good mentors and pursuing good mentors, I think those are great things for us all to keep in mind. Yeah. And to be rooted in our relationship with God, and that goes back to number one: the Scriptures.

Well, Al, we've learned so much from our conversation. This has just been a treasure trove of conversation as we've talked about The Theology of Work, science and work and your work in science and even discussions of infinity and the mathematical properties of infinity. But, you know, some of the differences between Christian leadership and those that don't follow it so much. But even Max Du Pree’s quotes of the role of leadership defined, reality, say thank you, be a servant in the middle. You know, we learned a lot from the ServiceMaster stories and the four objectives and the way that honor God in everything we do was even broken down into three key elements. You know, just really all of this, a great conversation.

You know, as we come to a conclusion, Al, is there one thing that you'd like to leave with us that we've talked about?

Al E.: I guess each of us is thinking forward. And so I'm wrapping up a book with a colleague now on thinking about, how do we live purposefully in a polarizing world? And it turns out that there are lots of narratives in the scripture that talk about people who lived in a world that didn't support their faith. We live in such a time as in our present time. And how do we live that out in a way that shows respect to others, that demonstrates who Christ is, and that seeks to bring hope and value to others? I think we're uniquely called at this time for that purpose. And so that's another thing that's on my mind, and, yeah.

Al L.: Let's all do that. Yeah. Let's learn how to live in a polarized world that brings the light of Christ to the world. No question. Live in such a way that it does that.

Well, Al, this has been great. Thanks so much for your contributions. Certainly, I appreciate your wholehearted commitment to follow Christ and pointing others to God in the process. You equipped so many people to be salt and light in their own workplaces. So thanks for taking your time out today and speaking in the lives of so many listeners.

Al E.: Thank you, Al. Nice to be here with you.

Al L.: Thank you so much for listening to my conversation with Al Erisman. And I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did.

You can find ways to connect with him and links to everything we discussed in the show notes and transcript at workplaces.org/podcast.

And if you have any suggestions for me about our podcast or have any questions about a flourishing workplace culture, please email me, al@workplaces.org.

And leaders, if you want to improve your leadership, expand your organization's impact for good, and see greater faithfulness in our broader culture, help us achieve our goal to see more flourishing Christian workplaces. To help, please share this podcast with another leader or leave a review on our podcast platform. If you're interested in learning more, go to workplaces.org and request a sample report.

Outro: The Flourishing Culture Leadership Podcast is sponsored by Best Christian Workplaces. If you need support building a flourishing workplace culture, please visit workplaces.org for more information.

We'll see you again next week for more valuable content to help you develop strong leaders and build a flourishing workplace culture.

Al L.: You're going to love my conversation next week with author and business leader Jeff Van Duzer on why business matters to God. You won't want to miss it.