Transcript: Do You Have a Great Succession Plan? // Peter Greer

The Flourishing Culture Podcast Series

“Do You Have a Great Succession Plan?“

October 5, 2020

Peter Greer

Intro: No matter what leadership role we're in, we should be thinking about succession. Listen in as Peter Greer describes the seven practices to navigate mission-critical leadership transitions.

Al Lopus: Welcome to another episode of the Flourishing Culture Podcast, where our goal is to equip and inspire you to build a flourishing workplace. As we all face today's leadership challenges as a result of the COVID-19 pandemic, we believe having a healthy culture is more important now than ever before. We are here to help you eliminate toxicity, improve your employees’ engagement, speed up new innovation, and grow your organization's impact.

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And now, let's meet today's special guest.

Al: It gives me great joy to welcome in one of our most popular guests on the Flourishing Culture Podcast, the president and CEO of HOPE International, Peter Greer. Peter, it's just great to have you on the show again.

Peter Greer: It’s a privilege. Thanks, Al.

Al: I love the work you do at HOPE International, and I love the insightful books that you've written. And I've gotten all of them: Mission Drift, The Board and the CEO, Rooting for Rivals. And the one, of course, I relate to has got the word flourish in it, Created to Flourish. But now I'm looking at a fresh copy of your new book, coauthored with Doug Fagerstrom, who's the CEO of Marketplace Chaplains, and the title is Succession: Seven Practices to Navigate Mission-Critical Leadership Transitions. Congratulations on the book.

Peter: I really appreciate it. Thank you.

Al: As you know, succession is near and dear to my heart at this point. I'm looking forward to learning from you as I go through, so maybe we'll talk a little bit about that.

But many of our listeners familiar with HOPE International know you're all about Christ-centered financial services in the developing countries where millions of people live on less than even $1.90 a day. They lack adequate food, shelter, work opportunities. And this was even before COVID, you know. So give us a glimpse of where and how HOPE International is changing lives even now.

Peter: Yeah. No, I appreciate that. And there's a lot of disruption for all of us in various ways, but I can tell you based on our work that the impact on vulnerable communities around the world, there is a lot of additional challenges that families are facing. And I consider it an enormous privilege to be part of a global organization that really is on the front lines of saying, how do we continue to show up, not run away from suffering, not run away when this is really hard, but continue to love and care and respond well.

And so, as you said, Al, our mission is to invest in families. You could summarize it by saying we're about the hope of Jesus and a job, and the way that we do that is through biblically based business training, savings services, loans. We want to be about restoring dignity, breaking the cycle of poverty, and really having this model that invests in entrepreneurs in 16 countries throughout Africa, Asia, Eastern Europe, and Latin America. And again, just our 23 years of history in these communities over the last number of months when we've been responding to this pandemic, once again amazed by the resilience, by the faith of our global brothers and sisters. And so very much trying to figure out how we continue to accomplish our mission. But as we're doing that, I continue to just have the highest level of respect for the global staff and our global brothers and sisters that know how to handle a crisis with faith, with hope, and with love.

Al: Yeah, absolutely. Well, and thanks for your work.

But let's talk about your new book. And it's a topic, as I said, near and dear to my heart. Right now so many organizations are trying to move forward in the face of uncertainty. You know, there's COVID-19, and that's not going away any time soon. There's the simmering racial unrest. Add to it constant political uncertainty and polarization that we experience. You know, with so much uncertainty in the air, what is it that makes your book so timely now?

Peter: I have to say that this is where my mind went during this time of when we were quarantined, and there was just a lot. Operational decisions. There just was a lot. And so I would wake up and know that it was not best for me to start sending emails around the world. It was not best. And so this was a project that Doug and I had talked about and with Brianna's help had started to put some work into. And then, really, it was over the time of quarantine that we got serious writing. And I think, candidly, part of the reason is that all of this extra challenges, all of this extra pressure, whether it is for church leaders or whether it is nonprofit leaders or whether you're in the marketplace, there are extra challenges of 2020. And I think there's going to be—well, not I think—there are an increased number of transitions that are happening right now. And so I wanted to dive into this subject, not knowing exactly when Doug and my transition is going to happen, but knowing that it will happen at some point, and saying, are we going to be able to look back and say we did everything possible because we care about the mission to prepare well for that day when we transition?

And as we dove into this, there were a couple other things. One is that we had a number of friends that were going through transitions, and in their own words, it was far more difficult than they expected, and there were some missteps. And through these friendships, we learned some really valuable lessons. And then the other thing is that we started doing the research and found that only 17 percent of organizations have a clear documented succession plan. So only 17 percent have actively taken the time and attention to say, let's think beyond the tenure of the current leader. And we think that is too small. So we think with all of the disruption of 2020, maybe this is a good time for all of us to get serious about planning, preparing, praying for the moment when we transition.

Al: Yeah, I really like that. You know, I've heard somebody say we're all interim, aren't we? I mean, none of us are going to have our jobs forever, so that means we're interim in our roles. And of course, there's also the huge transition from baby-boom leaders into the next generation of leaders across the world, and that's particularly true. In difficult times like COVID, it's time where a lot of boards are wondering, do we have the leaders that we need to take us to the next level for the organization? So we've already talked about some of it, but, you know, the idea, the conviction, the desire that really kind of whelmed up to write the book.

Peter: I love what you said: this growing conviction that we are all interim leaders, every single one of us. And whether our stage of interim is measured in months or years or decades, every single one of us will transition. That is inevitable. Unless the Lord comes back, we are all going to transition from our roles. And so the question for all of us is not just, what happens when we are in our roles? but I think a more important question is, what happens when we're not there? And I asked the board of directors of HOPE International to provide my final performance review two years after I'm gone, and I believe that's my most important performance appraisal. After I'm gone, what happened? What happens when we are no longer in a role? And the reality is, if we extend our sight beyond our tenure and if we say we value the mission more than we value our own sense of ego in the moment that we are stewarding this role, if our gaze extends beyond our tenure, then the question is, what are we doing to plan and prepare for that? And if we truly care about the missions of the organizations, it should break our heart if when our transition comes, the organization falls, stumbles, something happens that gets it knocked off mission. That should grieve our hearts if we truly care about the mission.

And so the conviction in writing this is that's what matters most. It matters most when we pass the baton to the next leader. What happens at that moment? Have we done everything possible to plan, to pray, to prepare for that moment that extends when we are no longer in that leadership role?

Al: I've got the privilege of working with Barry Slauenwhite, who was the 26-year CEO of Compassion Canada, and he told his board 10 years ahead of time when he was going to retire. And every year, came back and reminded them. So, I mean, he had a 10-year announcement with his board, and he actually retired 10 years from that time. And I think, wow, that's a real interesting approach. And now he's stepped back, and he's really coaching the next generation of Christian leaders in Canada as his next job.

But looking back at your book, in the opening paragraphs, you tell a gripping story of a seamless, successful leadership succession. Tell us the story.

Peter: Yeah. The one that comes to mind, Al, is the one about Mark. And one of the things that I so appreciated in the interviews that we had with leaders—and we interviewed leaders across sectors. We had conversations with individuals that had gone through—and what I appreciated most were the individuals that were willing to share the story, and to share the story, not just “Everything went great,” but “This was the challenge, and this is what I wish I knew. Would you please share this with other people?”

And so one of the stories in the opening pages is about Mark. And in many ways, Mark's story is a story of success. He saw a need. It was for financial services among vulnerable families in his community. He had the right background. He founded a nonprofit. They are doing mission work, and it is growing. Staff is growing. Funding is growing. And they ended up realizing there's some market shifts. They ended up changing direction. Everything seems like it's going well. And then the crisis comes. And it's not a question if a crisis is going to come in your leadership journey; it's a question of when a crisis is going to come. And in that moment when a crisis came, it was this realization for where the organization was going that he believed he didn't have the skills necessary to lead the organization in the new season. And so instead of kind of stepping down, instead of passing it on, instead of delegating responsibility, he tried to hold on, hold on. And it doesn't always go well when we try to hold on. Result was the organization began to decline, the reserves were drained, and Mark had a moment where he left. A couple weeks’ notice and he left. And that sudden exit, without any planning or preparation for the organization, sent shockwaves. It sent shockwaves through the organization to staff, donors lost confidence, and in the next five years, they went through five new leadership transitions. Every single leader, less than a year. And the sad story is the organization dissolved at the end.

And I don't want any more stories like that. I don't want any more stories of this rapid advance, this wonderful mission, this wonderful impact, only to wake up one day and to realize that in the wake of a leader's transition, the organization is left crumbling and eventually dissolves. I want to think about intergenerational impact. I want to think about long-term investment. I want to think about multigenerational faithfulness to steward a mission for a given time, and then pass it on with confidence that God is at work in the next leadership team as they step up as well.

Al: And I can appreciate, I mean, how many times—we all, and every leader listening to this has seen an organization that's gone through this. You know, a founder—I'm a founder—who doesn't have an open hand. God has given him this opportunity, or her an opportunity, for a season, and they hold on. And as you say, two weeks’ notice. That is not a succession.

I was just listening. Succession has the word success in it, and it's not successful if you can't have a successful succession. So great and heartfelt story here, Peter. We all can identify with that. And I just challenge all of our listeners, let's not let that happen in the organizations that we serve.

So, Peter, let's go on. I'm curious. Do you have—run or walk or do something to stay in shape? And the reason I ask that is, let's think about a four-minute mile, and I'm speaking figuratively. Would you take us on a four-minute-mile run through your new book? Just take a quick run through it. I know that you're going to say yes. You've divided the book into two parts: postures and practices. But give us a few minutes about the why postures and practices and how they combine to make a successful succession. Oh, and by the way, I won’t time you in the process. So let's take a quick run through it.

Peter: I think we can put the stopwatch on. Here we go. A quick run through it. And, you know, initially when we started working on this, our thoughts went to, what are the practices? What do we need to do? But in the conversations that we had, what was very clear is that most of the successions that were not successful, it was not just a question of practices, but it was a question of the heart posture. What is happening in the heart of the leader as they transition? What is happening in the heart of the board? What is happening in the heart of the leader that comes in?

And so, yes, there are practices that I hope will help individuals prepare, plan for their transition, but even more, I think that there's some work that has to be done up front to make sure our heart is in the right place. And so that's what we start with: what matters most? Is it the mission or is it me? Do we have a commitment to the mission, or is it, really, our focus is on ourselves?

And then we dive into myths. The myths that we heard again and again and again that caused individuals to not do the hard work of planning and preparing for succession planning, the myth around “I'm indispensable. The organization needs me.” The myth around “I'll get around to it. I'll think about succession planning when that time comes.” And the myth that is “Well, no one could possibly care about this job, this organization, as much as I do.” And so we're not thinking, planning about how to delegate and how to plan and prepare for the leader that comes beyond us. So we have to unravel some of these myths. We have to address some of these lies that will derail the process even before it begins of planning for succession.

And then we talk about the moment. How do you know if this is the right time for you to transition? And some questions to go through to say, “Is this the right time? The organization has changed. Is this still the moment where my skills match what the organization needs, or are there changes that need to happen? And am I willing before God to open up my hands and say, ‘God, is it still time for me to be in this role?’” So we need to understand the moment that we’re in.

And then, also, what would also unravel a successful succession is if the individual's identity is so closely woven with the organization or the title. And so thinking about, we can't begin thinking about a succession if we're finding our identity in the job that we have. And so if our identity is aligned with the organization, we are not going to be able to enter into a healthy process of planning for our succession.

So if our heart's in the right place through some of these postures, then we can get into the practices. And we do use the analogy of a relay race—not original to us—but looking at, what is it that makes individuals able to run in record time this pace? And it's because when you run, you run hard. And then you plan for that handoff of the baton.

And so we talk about how do you really begin training? How do you begin planning? How do you begin investing in leadership cohorts, pools of people who will be able to enter into senior-level positions? And then what does it look like to create the plan, both an emergency and a long-term plan? How do we actually do that? And for boards, how does the board realize that hiring the CEO, evaluating the CEO, and navigating a period of succession, it's one of the most critical roles that a board has? And so is the board engaged in this process in creating the plan?

Then we talk about coaches, and what are the voices that you're inviting in, and how we communicate clearly? And then what are the very practical things that we need to do to leave well, to prepare for that handoff? And then after the handoff, what does it look like? I like how Wess Stafford at Compassion International talked about, he went from being on the stage to in the audience, but he was going to be one of the loudest cheerers in the audience as the transition of leadership occurred. And I love that analogy of going from the stage to the stands, but still cheering on the next person who's running.

And so those are some of the steps that we hope are helpful to just make sure that we're thinking through both the heart postures of preparation as well as the practical steps that we need to take to transition well.

Al: I trust you’re enjoying our podcast today. We’ll be right back after an important word for leaders.

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Al: And now, back to today’s special guest.

You know, and I know you've mentioned Wess Stafford, but there's another case that includes a friend of mine, Alec Hill. Tell us about the InterVarsity story.

Peter: That is a great story. Alec and a group of leaders at InterVarsity, they came together, and they realized that many of their senior leaders were in a similar age group, that they were thinking about this, and they were thinking about, what does it look like in a decade? We're all going to be at retirement age, and what is going to happen to this organization that we care about at that time? And I just love how they didn't just have a conversation, but then they did something about it. They invested time. They invested resources. They created a staff development, not just plan and program, but really a culture around identifying leaders. And if you look at the transition of leadership between Alec Hill to Tom Lin, it is one of the great successes in recent years. I know Alec, and I know Tom, and there is a culture of honor where they both honor the other. There are best practices that they live out. How Alec, anytime staff come to him, he’s very clear to point back to Tom. Alec continues to be engaged with InterVarsity but in a really healthy way and doesn't mentor anyone who is in senior leadership. He goes to future leaders of the organization. And there's just this wonderful way that they looked ahead, they planned, they prepared, and thanks be to God. But that is a wonderful example of success in this succession process.

Al: And there was a huge hurdle in this story. And Alec’s been on this podcast, talking about it, because here he was at the peak of his career, and he gets word after fainting. As he was getting milk out of the refrigerator, he fainted, and his wife made him go to the doctor, and he found out that he had bone cancer and needed a bone graft in order to survive. And thankfully, he has. But within a month, he was out of the job, getting prepared for bone-marrow transfer, and they had a plan. I mean, that's your point, Peter, and why it's so successful. They had a plan. They'd been working on it. And even though, and who knows where any of us are with that, we could be getting that kind of word, anybody could, any leader, as I encourage you to think about that yourself, are you ready now? And they were ready. And, yes, it has been a tremendous transition. So I love it, yeah.

So in your book, you talk about the importance of surveying the staff and constituents to gain their feedback. And as you say, this helps create the staff’s buy in of the succession plan moving forward. And in your mind, why is surveying HOPE International staff, why has it been essential to sustaining a healthy and even vibrant culture?

Peter: Al, I mean, this is one of the many reasons why we just so much appreciation, so much respect for BCW and the skills and ways that you help us listen well, and just so much appreciation for that. And when we think about this issue of succession planning, again, that example with Alec and Tom, if at that moment the board engages and runs off in this succession plan, but has never really listened to staff, has never really developed a habit, a pattern of listening to staff, what's going well, what's not going well, they are not going to have the solid base of information that is so essential for the next leader to understand and even for them to select a leader. There's already so many challenges in succession planning. Don't add the extra challenge of not listening well to a core constituency, that of the staff that are working for the organization. So I think listening is actually a way of loving and honoring staff. Listening is a way of planning and preparing well for that transition, and having that structured way to listen, to learn, and to apply some of the lessons, that helps not only create a healthy organization, but it also helps prepare for that moment of transition. Because at a moment of transition, if there are gaps, if there are weaknesses, if there are hidden areas of angst or concern, those are going to be exacerbated during a period of transition. So, again, huge fan of BCW and listening well as a way to plan and prepare and address issues that will only become more consequential in a time of succession planning.

Al: Yeah. Because if you're not listening, some huge issues could come up  and broadside you. And gosh, you don't want to be in that situation.

So in your book, you zero in on seven practices to help leaders successfully pass the baton. And that's a real challenge. Any of us that have done relay racing knows that passing the baton, that is a critical moment to success in the race. And tell us about a key practice or maybe one overlooked practice that would jeopardize succession and then hurt the organization as a result.

Peter: Yeah. So just real quick. This is—it is so simple, but it is absolutely foundational to a healthy succession process. And it's the first one that we talked about briefly. But keep the focus on the mission. The mission is what matters most, and see all of us as having the privilege and honor of stewarding leadership for a limited amount of time. And one of the fun things was to do a little bit of research on organizations that have figured out this issue of succession planning. And one of the ones that maybe isn't as well known, but to others, a Japanese hotel located near some hot springs that has been continuously running since 705 A.D., it's been run by the same family for 52 generations.

Al: That’s unbelievable.

Peter: So they’ve figured something out, right? I think they have figured something out. But in reading about it, it's because everyone who comes in there, they know what they're coming in to. This is not about them. This is about the hotel. This is about the overarching issue of legacy and mission. And they are one piece of a very long chain. And so I don't think HOPE International is going to be around for 52 generations. But I certainly hope and am planning and preparing for my time that I'm here to simply be a limited amount of time and to pass on that baton to someone else and to celebrate what happens next. So, again, the question for all of us is, how much of the focus is on us? How much of the emphasis is on the leader as opposed to is it the mission that matters most? And again, the irony is we spent time really focused on mission when we wrote Mission Drift with Chris Horst. And I don't think in that we fully dived into this issue of succession planning as much as I wish we had, because it is so critical to plan, to prepare, to have a leadership culture that is actively working for the moment when we pass on that baton.

And then, maybe the overlooked practice. I just think it's getting this question about, when the leader transitions, what is his or her role? There's so many ways that that leader, with the relationships, with the history, can be instrumental in helping to advance the cause. And there are so many ways that that can cause an organization to falter. And so I think the piece that we see from Alec, we see from Wess, we heard from so many different leaders is this willingness to say, “I'm going to not be the CEO. I'm not going to be the chief executive. I'm going to be the chief cheerleader. And that's going to be my role to cheer on that next leader so that he or she knows I am in that corner. I am with you.” And so not getting involved in things that are outside of what the role is as the former leader, but to actually be one of the biggest fans, advocates of the new leader and to continue to champion the mission.

Al: Yeah. I really appreciate your focus on the mission. It's really not about us. I know at HOPE International, it's not Greer International, is it? It's HOPE International. It's the same. People ask me about the Best Christian Workplaces Institute and kind of what my future is. And I say, “This is not the Lopus Institute. This is the Best Christian Workplaces Institute. And there will be a leader, and we'll take it for the next season. And I'm going to be open handed about that.” And I think all of us as leaders need to have that. It's about the mission. We're anxious to see 1,000 flourishing workplaces in 2030, and we're about 100 now. So there's a lot of work to do to achieve that goal for us as well.

So, you know, there's no question every committed Christian leader wants to see and know that the Lord is at work in their organization. And where have you noticed maybe the unmistakable presence of God, seeing the footsteps of Jesus, or even sensed the Holy Spirit at HOPE International these days?

Peter: Yeah. I mean, Al, the backdrop of 2020 is looming large over that question. And again, every aspect of our organization has been impacted. Every country where we operate, every aspect of who we are, it has been impacted in the way that we deliver our services, in the global economy that has been impacted, on the lives of the families that we serve. So there's so much disruption. And then in our own backyard, so much disruption right now. And we feel that. And I guess I would say where I've seen the unmistakable presence of God is in a backdrop of chaos, in a backdrop of challenge, in a backdrop of division. I have seen followers of Jesus rediscover that Jesus is enough for all of us. And within the organization, the prayers and being led in prayer by our global staff have been so deeply moving. When we know we don't know what to do, when we know the challenges feel bigger than us, we don't know what to do, but we do know Who to go to. And there has been this beautiful unity that comes in a time of desperation, of saying, “God, would You help? Would You move? Would You work? because this is bigger than our ability to solve these problems.” And, you know, the crazy thing is when we come to ourselves, we actually can see the sufficiency of God, and not always in the way that we plan or expect or hope, but we can see truly that God is enough. So I have seen that, I have sensed that, I have been ministered in my soul from my brothers and sisters around the world that have constantly pointed us back to a God who is bigger than COVID, a God who is bigger than division, a God who is at work even in the midst of really, really challenging times. And that God, that God always has been and always will be enough.

Al: He is. And, you know, I just think, again, He's at work even in the midst of COVID and even in the context of this succession discussion is that with fully trusting in Him, He will work through succession situations, for sure. And, hopefully, we avoid what happened to the U.S. men's relay team, the 4x100 Olympic meter team, who dropped the baton during the Olympic race. You know, you chose to close the book with this dramatic story. Tell us about that.

Peter: Yeah. So there are a lot of great stories of transition. And in some way, we wanted to include in the book the times that it didn't go right, as really believing that failure is a really valuable teacher. And so if we can go to school in other people's missteps, that is a gift. And so grateful, again, people shared candidly with us a lot of some of the missteps. But there also were so many great stories to celebrate.

And so one of them is the story of East-West Ministries and their organizational mission feat, trying to reach the unreached with the gospel. And John Maisel, the co-founder, passed on the baton to Kurt Nelson. There are so many things to love about this story. I love the long-term planning and preparing that John knew his time to transition, that was going to come. And he didn't shy away from that, but he embraced it, and he got to work. And so a long-term relationship, long-term vision. What I also love is that this was not like a hidden conversation. This was a conversation they were having with the board, that they were trying to create the plan a long time ahead and to make sure that they followed the discernment process, not just the two of them, but also with the board. I love that when the decision finally came, there was so much prayer, and there was a celebration, and they literally celebrated this baton passed. And what I love is connecting it to what we were just talking about. There was this clear emphasis on the mission. And Kurt and John, they have different gifts. They have different temperaments. They have different personalities. But the focus on the mission, that is what keeps both of them focused on what is most important and I think has allowed this to be a story that from everything that we heard and saw and from people that know the situation well and from staff and from board, this truly is a transition to celebrate.

And so for me, that's a great case study. I want more of those stories to be told. I don't want any more missteps. I want more of that type of plan and process. And so, again, that's our hope in writing this was that we might be part not only in our own organizations, but maybe, maybe God might use some of these lessons learned, some of these examples. It might be used to help more of us follow in that pattern of a true passing of the baton where there is not hurt and fear and anxiety, but there is celebration of what has happened and celebration of the next stage that is about to begin as well. So that is our hope.

Al: And what a picture that you portrayed here in this where there was an actual event, a public ceremony, to celebrate the baton pass. And so many times that's done in a dark, or at least, in a conference room. There's never the recognition of moving from one to another. There's no celebration. Recognizing the past, celebrating the past, and then making a clear picture of what the future and where the future is going is really, that's something for us all to think about as we think about our own succession. Yeah. Great picture, great story. And it's a great organization. Kurt Nelson’s is doing a wonderful job.

Peter, as we wind down our time together, maybe a favor, figuratively speaking, would you pull open your top desk drawer in your office and tell us about the two letters that you keep there?

Peter: Yeah, Al, I don’t know if the listeners are going to find this a little bit odd. But I do. There are two letters that I wrote, and I believe they help keep my mind and my heart focused on what's most important and also help plan and prepare for this moment when, not if, but when, that succession time comes for me. So the two letters that I have, the one is the resignation letter. I wrote my resignation letter to the board of directors, and at someday I'm going to mail that. That day will come. And just recognizing that my time is temporary here helps reframe what I'm doing today. Am I investing beyond this particular time? And also, who am I outside of my role? What am I doing to prioritize the day that I leave HOPE International? I'm still going to be, Lord willing, Laurel's husband and dad to Keith, Lily, Miles, and London. And so just keeping my priorities in place. My identity is not my job. I have another identity as a son of God and also in the family sense as well. So resignation letter is one.

And also, I have my eulogy. I wrote my eulogy right around my fortieth birthday. And similarly, I just find remembering that I'm going to transition from this role helps me lead differently today. Remembering that I'm in a transition from this life, helps me live with more purpose, focused on what matters most. And so I don't know if physically everyone needs to go and write their resignation letter or their eulogy, but I can tell you personally, those moments of writing them have reframed, kept my head focused on what matters most.

Al: I wrote my eulogy when I was 45, Peter, and I’d read Halftime at that point. So that was a great book. And one of the first things that came out of that is write your eulogy because it will help you understand knowing what you're going to aim for. As we all know, when we're on our deathbed, nobody ever talks about how they wish they might have worked more. It's all about their family and what they're leaving behind. So great example.

So a resignation letter and, hopefully, one that just fits right into your succession plan, right? And a eulogy. Well, that's great.

Well, Peter, this has just been fantastic. And I've really enjoyed everything you've shared with us. We've had a great conversation. And what's maybe the one principle of truth in your book that you want your readers to grab onto and to never let go?

Peter: I think it's very simple and very difficult. In its simplicity, it’s plan and prepare beyond your tenure. Plan and prepare for that moment. Live every day in light of the fact that you will eventually transition. And in the midst of that, coming to grips with that, then that allows us to lead differently. It allows us to invest more intentionally in the people that are around us. It invites others in. It has a different form of delegation. And for all of us to prepare for succession by looking beyond the confines of our office, looking beyond just our strategic objectives, looking beyond our tenure. And I hope that God grants many, many years in service in the organizations where we are. I believe in long-term and faithful leadership. But even with that, it's to have that still ability to look long term, to plan long term, and then to actively keep succession in mind, because that day, it might come in a long term, it might come short term, but we know it's coming. So that's really it. What does it look like for us to live every day in light of the fact that we will eventually transition?

Al: That’s great, Peter, and thanks. And I've really enjoyed everything that we've learned today. You know, I like the way we just started off. You started off by saying, probably your most important, or at least, your last performance review would be two years after you're gone. Now, that's something for us to wrap our heads around. You know, what is success? And the last review is two years after we’re gone. Is it working? Well, I retired once already at age 50. I retired. I left the organization. I came back a year later and asked them, how's it going? I was really interested in my emotions. And it gets at, how invested are we? How much do we see ourselves in our job? And I was glad to hear that they had grown, and I was glad to hear they hadn't grown a lot in the year that I was gone. I should have been hoping that they would have grown a lot in that year, but it just shows you how we think of ourselves too much in that transition. And I love the heart. How we have to have our hearts right, as the leader, as the board, as the successor, having our hearts right. I love the East-West story and the importance of focusing on mission and not ourselves. These are all really good. Even the myths. Oh, I'll admit that for me, a myth was, “Well, I'll get around to it someday.” And, you know, I kept saying, “Well, in about five years I think I might transition.” And then the next year, “Well, in about five years I think I might.” And we've got to define these things. I'd hope that each of us has a way of defining it. Again, Barry Slauenwhite said in 10 years this is where it's going to be, and he followed through.

So this has just been a great conversation. How about something that you'd like to add that we haven't talked about yet?

Peter: I don’t think I have too much, other than to say, thank you, Al. And I think we need friends in this. We need other individuals that are having these same conversations. And sometimes the questions and conversation around succession planning can be really difficult to have internally. And so who in your life have you invited to walk on this journey with you? Who else are you having these conversations with? And if you don't have that group of trusted friends and advisers, now is a great time to get it. So that would be the only other thing is don't walk this journey alone. Invite others to walk with you.

Al: That’s a great start.

And how about one final encouragement that you'd like to leave with our listeners, considering all we've shared today?

Peter: Yeah. I mean, for me, it's this is too important to put it in a bucket or category of I’ll get to around it when I have enough time. So what is one thing that you can do today to begin this succession-planning process? If you're in that 17 percent, if you're in a leadership role of any sort and you haven't really thought about this conversation or done anything practical to plan and prepare it, now is a great day to take that first step. And if there's any way that I can try to help, reach out to me. Can find me at peterkgreer.com. And I just so, so appreciate the group of friends that I have within the nonprofit space in particular that are walking this journey together. So, yeah, that's maybe the last piece is, what's one thing that you could do to take a practical step in thinking about this topic of succession planning?

Al: Yeah. And go to peterkgreer.com. It’s a great site, and it shows you the books that Peter’s written. All of them really outstanding.

So, Peter Greer, president and CEO of HOPE International, and the coauthor along with Doug Fagerstrom of the book Succession: Seven Practices to Navigate Mission-Critical Leadership Transitions, thanks so much for sharing your wisdom, insights, and stories, and thanks for investing yourself in this time today and for all of those who’ve been listening and benefiting from what you’ve shared. So thanks, Peter, very much.

Peter: Thank you, Al. Great privilege.

Outro: Thank you for joining us on the Flourishing Culture Podcast and for investing this time in your workplace culture. If there's a specific insight, story, or action step you've enjoyed, please share it with others so they can benefit, too. Please share this podcast with friends on social media, and show your support by rating, reviewing, and subscribing wherever you listen.

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